Ultimate Wireless Network

[DaddyBC]

Eibgrad, thanks for the input. I am now associating WDS with bridging, which I did not understand previously. I do understand that I am pushing the wireless issues outside of the TiVo but thanks for mentioning it. I know that there are WRT experts that should chime in soon. My questions involve how to actually bridge the WRT's utilizing WPA and whether I need to do it via the Alchemy route. In the meantime, I'm trying to research this myself as well.


I am using two WRT54G to do this with WDS. I would recommend you check out the sveasoft talisman firmware and their site, especially this article WDS Bridging (http://www.sveasoft.com/modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8742)

[RaptorXXX]

Thanks DaddyBC, I registered on Sveasoft and will most likely subscribe. Would I need to flash all three WRT's? I think the answer is yes. Also, what is the difference between Talisman and Alchemy?? Looks like Talisman would be the way to go since it is the newest. I have no issues with flashing since I have done it with computers and cell phones before and have read the WRT flash posts.

My hesitancy is the guts of configuring IP's, subnets etc and I'm looking for the best post to guide me in doing this. I'll study the Sveasoft post and get more conftorable with it. Today I'm going to eat some turkey though. Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving to all. Amongst so many things, I am so thankful for this site. The members are helping me now and have helped me in the past.

[DaddyBC]

Thanks DaddyBC, I registered on Sveasoft and will most likely subscribe. Would I need to flash all three WRT's? I think the answer is yes. Also, what is the difference between Talisman and Alchemy?? Looks like Talisman would be the way to go since it is the newest. I have no issues with flashing since I have done it with computers and cell phones before and have read the WRT flash posts.

My hesitancy is the guts of configuring IP's, subnets etc and I'm looking for the best post to guide me in doing this. I'll study the Sveasoft post and get more conftorable with it.

I went with Talisman because of some of the other options. Flashing the firmware is easy. Its just like updating the firmware when Linksys comes out with new ones.
There are several guides on their website depending on exactly what you want to end up with.

[Rallyman]

Security Question.

I've got my network setup pretty much as described above. One DLink DI 624 router (radio turned off) w/ 3 Belkin F5D7130 AP's ( One AP wired into the Dlink and the other two connected to my two TiVo's). All of the Belkins are in "Wireless Bridge" mode and I have selected the option to only allow certain MAC addresses to connect. Specifically each Belkin has the MAC address of the other two input as being allowed to connect. I have changed the default SSID and am not broadcasting it. I have not selected the "Disable wireless clients" option, surely with MAC address filtering and SSID not being broadcast I'm relatively secure. Yes? No?

Rallyman

[azitnay]

Do you have WEP (or better yet, WPA) enabled?

MAC addresses are easily spoofed, and just because your SSID isn't broadcast, that doesn't mean it's impossible to find.

Usually not a huge concern unless you have a reason to believe someone's going to try to break in, but it's worth turning on WEP/WPA if you can.

Drew

[Rallyman]

Do you have WEP (or better yet, WPA) enabled?

MAC addresses are easily spoofed, and just because your SSID isn't broadcast, that doesn't mean it's impossible to find.

Usually not a huge concern unless you have a reason to believe someone's going to try to break in, but it's worth turning on WEP/WPA if you can.

Drew

I was afraid that someone would say that :) :). I didn't really want to mess with it, but I guess I should.

Rallyman

[RaptorXXX]

Azitnay, thanks for the question conccerning WPA. That is my second reason for upgrading my network, being to enable WPA. My first reason is for faster T2G transfers as well as other large file transfers I am ready except for the actual guts of the configuring. All three TiVo's have been successfully flashed to Talisman now...that was easy.

Now I just have to pull the plug on my old network and start the configuring process. I have a few posts from Sveasoft, as a guide. Looks like WDS EPA encrypted mode. I'll most likely attempt on Mon. Need to print out the posts and understand a little more. There's always the chance that it will be easier then I thought but better to be prepared for the worst then be unprepared...just me. :) :)

[juanian]

Thanks - I think today is the day I'll have a chance to hook these up.OK, so it took quite a while longer for me to get around to hooking these up and getting my TiVo set up "wirelessly" using WPA. (Yay, no more 50' wire strung along the hallways!)

So, here's my "current" setup (thanks to merlincc and Lopey and all the rest for the information about their configurations!):
1: Linksys WRT54G hooked up to my cable modem, also providing DHCP and local wireless access.

2: Belkin F5D7230-4 v3001 (5.00.02), set up as router with wireless bridging (wired to my Linksys, TiVo #1 (and soon to my PS2!)).

3: Belkin F5D7230-4 v2002 (4.05.03), set up as an Access Point with wireless bridging (wired to TiVo #2 and my Mac).

So far, so good -- MRV works fine; a 5 minute show (basic quality) transferred in about 110 seconds, which is close to what I can get wired with my old model 140 (USB 1.1).

The one other thing I'd like to do (which might not be possible) is to try and enable port renumbering and redirection (if possible). The Linksys I have as my main router has port redirection, but not renumbering. I'm wondering if I can use the port renumbering of the Belkin router (available under Firewall > Virtual Servers) to renumber some ports. I've tried a few things, but they haven't worked yet. (Hmm, what IP address to assign in the Linksys?)


A few notes:
The box for the v3 says v3001, but the label on the router says 3000.

The box for the v2 says v2002, but the label on the router says 2000.

Belkin has a automated step-by-step process for setting up the routers as WDS, but I didn't quite follow it (since my configuration was different than their standard setup). The automated system did specifically enquire about the firmware versions of the first router (called "router") and the second router (called "Access Point"). The router supports a firmware version up to 5 (which is what the v3001 has), and the AP supports a firmware version up to 4 (which is what the v2002 has). It looks like I might have been screwed if I would have gotten two v300x routers.

The automated help specifically says that WPA is not supported with WDS, but I was able to choose WPA/TKIP as the security for both ends. Does this mean that the help is wrong, or that the routers are not actually doing WPA even though I selected it?!? I have checked the "Disable ability for Wireless CLIENTS to connect" -- hopefully this will close up any security gap that might have been opened, right?

For giggles, I tried removing my Linksys and connecting my cable modem directly to the Belkin. I was able to get it to work, and I could connect wirelessly, but connections seemed slow and not very reliable. (I'm not sure if it was a DNS issue or something else.)

[rji2goleez]

Hello everyone. I've read this thread over the last two days excited about the prospect of real time or better transfers of Tivo to PC. I'm really interested in Tivo to PC to Ipod which works great except for my current wireless B adapter on my Humax DRT 800 Tivo.

I read on page twelve in this thread that someone successfully was able to use a Belkin Pre-N router on a system for Tivo transfer. I already have a Pre-N but have been unsuccessful linking a Belkin 7230-4 as an access point (through an ethernet attached to my Tivo2). Belkin support says the Pre-N cannot be bridged and I was unsuccessful specifying the MAC address of the 7230-4 access point as being allowed. Anyone had any success using the Pre-N?

I've since disconnected the 7230-4 from my laptop (used for configuration) but I seem to periodically get an IP conflict message (in WinXP) and am forced to restart my Pre-N. My router is back to its original confuration (e.g., disabled MAC filtering, WEP enabled). Any suggestions?

Now, I'm looking to buy a second 7230-4 and create a 'standard' Belkin setup per this thread. I wonder how much of a coverage performance hit I will take (if at all) using two 7230-4's versus my Pre-N. Thoughts?

This has been a great thread . . .

Bob

[rji2goleez]

Hi again everyone.

OK, I consider myself network challenged but computer savvy (does that make sense?). I'm trying to connect my Tivo2 via the belkin set up described in this thread.

Broadband wireless router:
Belkin 7230-4
DHCP Server: ON
IP Pool address 2-100
Bridging enabled

Tivo wireless router (connected through ethernet)
Belkin 7230-4
DHCP Server: ON
Access Point enabled with IP: 192.168.2.254
Bridging enabled

Here's problem number 1
After I set the IP address for the Tivo router using my laptop, I am asked to re-enter the ip addy (192.168.2.254) in the browser bar and I successfully get into the belkin router config screen. Seems like I have things set up properly but I don't seem to be able to access an internet connection through the access point using the laptop. Further, if I close IE and then reopen and type 192.168.2.254 in the browser bar to open the config utlity, I can't get there. (I'm not typing http, etc.). I'm stumped. My only recourse has been to do a hard reset of the Tivo access point and start changing factory defaults. I think I'm following the tips here but I must be missing something silly.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Bob

[Lopey]

First, you have two DHCP servers running. You should only have 1 be the DHCP, the one that is connected to the internet should be running the DHCP. Disable one of the DHCP's and restart your laptop so it gets an IP address from the correct source. Also, make sure both router's don't have the same IP address. I like to make things simple, so I would make your main router be 192.168.2.1 and the second router be 192.168.2.2. I think it just makes it easier when it's lower number, just my opinion. Try that and let us know.

[eibgrad]

Security Question.

I've got my network setup pretty much as described above. One DLink DI 624 router (radio turned off) w/ 3 Belkin F5D7130 AP's ( One AP wired into the Dlink and the other two connected to my two TiVo's). All of the Belkins are in "Wireless Bridge" mode and I have selected the option to only allow certain MAC addresses to connect. Specifically each Belkin has the MAC address of the other two input as being allowed to connect. I have changed the default SSID and am not broadcasting it. I have not selected the "Disable wireless clients" option, surely with MAC address filtering and SSID not being broadcast I'm relatively secure. Yes? No?

Rallyman

Your setup is almost 100% identical to mine, same DI-624 router, wireless off, belkin AP patched to router, and two Tivo's using bridged Belkins.

I've yet to be able to enable WPA as others have w/ this configuration, undoubtedly the biggest security issue for me. Only using WEP so I have at least something. As I indicated in a previous post, I found some info on why I may be having a problem, others are reporting that if you have a wireless client (usb, pci, etc.) using those APs, then WPA won't work. I've yet to confirm it.

That said, I've disabled SSID broadcasts and turned 54G-Only mode ON. The idea here is to at least make penetration more difficult, but hardly impossible. I figure if I require G access, then at least B wireless is denied. Similarly, SSID broadcasts being disabled at least stops the wireless from SHOUTING its presence, but anyone w/ a sniffer can easily detect it. Again, it's the casual snooper we're trying to address.

I've also disable clients AT LEAST on the Tivo APs. There's really no good reason any client adapters should be leapfrogging on these APs. But I do keep client access open on the AP attached to the DI-624. And as I said, it's one of the things that *may* be preventing WPA from working.

In the end, the only real protection you have, except for these "annoyances" we create, is WPA. With a GOOD, LENGTHY, RANDOM key, it's awfully difficult to break. Everything else, including MAC filters, IP filters, etc., are minimally effective to the determined hacker. But at least it's something.

Here's my recommendations:

- Disable SSID (and use something other than "default" or otherwise obvious)
- 54G-Only mode
- Protected Mode: OFF (performance issue, not security)
- Disable ALL client access to APs (use the D-Link DI-624's own wireless if you must)
- Enable only specific wireless APs to connect
- Disable all wireless clients

On your DI-624, you'll want to:

- Enable DHCP static assignments, and ONLY define a range for those devices you know need an IP address, also make leases as long as possible
- Use a non-typical IP scope (the default is usually too easily guessed)
- Add MAC filters that allow only known and trusted MACs
- Add IP filters (or firewall rules) that specifically EXCLUDES any IPs not specifically needed by DHCP's static assignments
- If you use the wireless on the DI-624 for clients, keep the transmit power as low as possible, something that keeps range and performance acceptable without needlessly extending beyond that.

But never kid yourself about all the non-WPA stuff, it's merely to throw a few obstacles up. But a determined hacker can break though with enough time and effort. WEP helps a smidgen, but WPA is really your only real protection in the long run.

eibgrad

[eibgrad]

Hi again everyone.

OK, I consider myself network challenged but computer savvy (does that make sense?). I'm trying to connect my Tivo2 via the belkin set up described in this thread.

Broadband wireless router:
Belkin 7230-4
DHCP Server: ON
IP Pool address 2-100
Bridging enabled

Tivo wireless router (connected through ethernet)
Belkin 7230-4
DHCP Server: ON
Access Point enabled with IP: 192.168.2.254
Bridging enabled

Here's problem number 1
After I set the IP address for the Tivo router using my laptop, I am asked to re-enter the ip addy (192.168.2.254) in the browser bar and I successfully get into the belkin router config screen. Seems like I have things set up properly but I don't seem to be able to access an internet connection through the access point using the laptop. Further, if I close IE and then reopen and type 192.168.2.254 in the browser bar to open the config utlity, I can't get there. (I'm not typing http, etc.). I'm stumped. My only recourse has been to do a hard reset of the Tivo access point and start changing factory defaults. I think I'm following the tips here but I must be missing something silly.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Bob

Lopey is correct. Remember what you're trying to do here. You want one of the Belkins to be configured as a plain ol' router, nothing special, the same thing everyone does when having to configure internet access. In fact, YOU SHOULDN'T EVEN BE CONFIGURING FOR ANYTHING *BUT* INTERNET ACCESS ON THE PRIMARY BELKIN ROUTER!!!

IOW, fortget all the crap about wireless bridging, Tivo's, etc., for now. Get the router working w/ your laptop, desktop, whatever FIRST. Trying to configure the system ALL AT THE SAME TIME will only lead to confusion. It becomes too difficult to diagnose a problem when there are so many variables, keep it simple, don't employ security at all UNTIL all is working w/o security FIRST. That eliminates one source of problems that can be addressed later. Once you can use the router successfully w/ a laptop or router, NOW configure your Tivo.

The easiest thing to do is patch to the second Belkin w/ a laptop, then configure the laptop's IP config to use a static IP, one that is in the same scope as the default scope of the Belkin. When the laptop boots, navigate to the belkin configuration. Now you want to configure the Belkin in this case as a pure AP (Access Point). When you do, things like DHCP, NAT, firewall, etc., become irrelevant, in fact, disabled. Now you enable wireless bridging so that other Belkin APs and your router can communicate. That will require providing the MAC address of each others devices on the router and AP(s), of course, so that they can find each other.

Believe it or not, that's really the nuts and bolts of this configuration, it's not really all that complicated. What complicates it is all the *other* stuff, like the various configuration options to limit access by wireless clients, allowing only specific APs to be bridged, security (WEP, WPA, etc.), MAC and IP filters, and the rest of it.

I can't stress too much, KEEP IT SIMPLE!!! Do ONE thing at a time!!! Climb one step at a time. The temptation by the novice is to solve EVERY issue in one fell swoop. In the long run, it will take you longer because it will prove exceedly difficult to convey your problems and for us to diagnose them with so many variables in the mix. If you can't even get basic Internet access going w/ the router, for example, why complicate that problem w/ all the rest of these bridging issues. Once that's working, THEN go to the bridging issue. Once that's working, then deal w/ security. If you have a problem at any given point, at least we know where and where not to look. This is *the* biggest mistake I see new users make. Trying to do too much at once.

Btw, as far as pre-N, I don't believe these F5D7230's can be bridged to pre-N devices.

Here's a sequence I recommend:

1. Configure Belkin # 1 as router, use mostly defaults so Internet access is achieved w/ as few hassles as possible. Confirm connectivity with laptop via wired (not wireless).

2. Enable wireless bridging on router and specify address of the other Belkin's WAN MAC.

3. Patch laptop to second Belkin, boot laptop, and configure it for static IP in same scope as Belkin. Navigate to Belkin configuration and enable Access Point mode. Make sure this AP uses a DIFFERENT static IP assignment from router, and it's not in the DHCP range of that router (I like to start from the top of the same scope and work backwards, e.g., 192.168.1.254, 192.168.1.253). Configure it for wireless bridging as well, and specify the router's WAN MAC.

4. Reset laptop network config to use DHCP again, keep patch cable connected, then reboot. Once booted, you should be able to connect THROUGH the AP to your router, obtain an IP address, and reach the Internet. You have to make sure this works, because if it doesn't, it's not going to get any easier w/ the Tivo. Your Tivo will be doing the very same thing as your laptop once we get that far, so get this working first.

5. Install ethernet adapter on Tivo, patch ethernet cable from adapter to Belkin AP, and initialize it w/ Tivo setup (wired type connection, NOT wireless!). If your laptop worked, there's no reason the Tivo shouldn't either. Heck, you don't even need to disconnect the laptop, both the laptop and Tivo should be able to reach the Internet w/ their own unique IP assignments from the DHCP server.

Do NOT use security for ANY of these operations, it only obscures problems. When all is working, THEN go back and start adding security, limiting IP scopes, MAC filters, disabling clients, etc.

eibgrad

[rji2goleez]

Lopey/Eibgrab:

First, thanks so much for the detailed replies.

As mentioned in Eibgrab's response, I have had not problem getting the main belkin functioning as a router. My issues have been getting the right settings in the AP. I knew I wasn't there as my laptop could not access the internet.

I was unaware of the step to set my laptop to static IP when configuring the Belkin AP and then setting back once done. I'll try this tonight. Otherwise, I thought I followed your steps. I did note that the Belkin AP did have DHCP on even though it was set as an access point.

thanks again for your prompt replies!!!

Bob

[ashu]

Seems you've already gotten the responses that will help set things right.

When configuring settings on an incompletely configured AP/router etc., the PC yo have connected to it needs to have SOME valid IP (hence, in the absence of another DHCP source, a static IP needs to be set).

[juanian]

. . .
Broadband wireless router:
Belkin 7230-4
DHCP Server: ON
IP Pool address 2-100
Bridging enabled

Tivo wireless router (connected through ethernet)
Belkin 7230-4
DHCP Server: ON
Access Point enabled with IP: 192.168.2.254
Bridging enabled
. . .I had heard that it was not possible to have just two Belkin 7230-4 set up as internet router and bridged access point, and that you needed to wire one of the Belkins to another router which is connected to the cable/dsl modem. I'd really like to be able to just have my setup use the two Belkins, so I would like to see it work.

Bob, what are the version numbers of the 7230's you have (and what firmware versions). This might play a role in doing what you want.

I did try to get this to work, and I had limited success (see above post). Maybe when I get a chance, I'll try doing this in the sequence eibgrad described (including temporarily not enabling WPA). One other point: I do need to have wireless enabled (for roaming laptops); will this 2-Belkin setup work and allow this? (I would think that it would, but . . . )

[rji2goleez]

Gentlemen - Thank you all. We have successfully achieved connection. My issue was not realizing that:

1) I needed to use a static IP on the machine being used to set up the AP
2) I didn't realize that I actually had both Belkins set up to do DHCP

Once I resolved both of the these issues, I immediately achieved connection.

Juanian:

My set up uses two 7230-4, both version 2000, both firmware 4.05.03 and yes, my roaming laptop is working as well.

OK, so I'm still running in mixed mode as I have a work laptop that runs on 802.11b so would that be a reason that I am not achieving realtime transfer rate through Tivo desktop? It's certainly transferring faster but not realtime. The routers are only 1 room apart from each other, no more than 25ft.

Thanks to all again!!!

Bob

[juanian]

OK, so I'm still running in mixed mode as I have a work laptop that runs on 802.11b so would that be a reason that I am not achieving realtime transfer rate through Tivo desktop? It's certainly transferring faster but not realtime. The routers are only 1 room apart from each other, no more than 25ft.I think I remember reading that using a mixed -b and -g network slows down the -g throughput (cuts it in half to avoid 'confusing' the -b devices too badly). At some time you don't need your -b laptop, temporarily change your router to be g-only and see if your throughput increases.

EDIT: I'll need to give it a try again. I just couldn't keep connectivity when I was trying it out. I had either no connectivity or intermittent and slow connectivity. Congrats on your success!

EDIT2: Older TiVos (like my model 140-) only have USB 1.1 hardware, so they can't go as fast as some newer models. How slow are your xfers?

[rji2goleez]

I think I remember reading that using a mixed -b and -g network slows down the -g throughput (cuts it in half to avoid 'confusing' the -b devices too badly). At some time you don't need your -b laptop, temporarily change your router to be g-only and see if your throughput increases.

EDIT: I'll need to give it a try again. I just couldn't keep connectivity when I was trying it out. I had either no connectivity or intermittent and slow connectivity. Congrats on your success!

EDIT2: Older TiVos (like my model 140-) only have USB 1.1 hardware, so they can't go as fast as some newer models. How slow are your xfers?


Would I need to change the mode on both router and AP or just router?

As for xfer times. At one point a 30 minute show was scheduled to take 45 minutes. Now, in another test the same file will take just over an hour. Connectivity . . . yes. Impressive . . . not yet. I imagine I would get this transfer time just by replacing my Tivo wireless b with a wireless g at much less the cost. But before I do, I'll see what folks here might suggest. Remember, I'm transfering using Tivo Desktop and nothing more.

Bob

[juanian]

Would I need to change the mode on both router and AP or just router?You would certainly need to change the router, and I guess changing the AP wouldn't hurt (I do have my AP set to "54G-Only").

As for xfer times. At one point a 30 minute show was scheduled to take 45 minutes. Now, in another test the same file will take just over an hour. Connectivity . . . yes. Impressive . . . not yet. I imagine I would get this transfer time just by replacing my Tivo wireless b with a wireless g at much less the cost. But before I do, I'll see what folks here might suggest. Remember, I'm transfering using Tivo Desktop and nothing more.That does seem long, even for TiVo Desktop. (I have a Mac, so I can't use TiVo Desktop to xfer shows.) I do use Galleon running on a Windows 98 machine, and a transfer from my model 140- TiVo (using a Linksys USB200M) takes about 23 minutes to transfer a 1 hour (basic quality) show to the Win98 box. That is about the same to xfer a show from a model 540- TiVo to my 140- over the bridge.

Another question: When you use the wireless from a notebook (or from a computer directly connected to the remote bridge), do you have any problems retrieving web pages? Is it "zippy", or are there lots of 5-10 second pauses (and possibly some 'not found' errors or missing graphics)? If you have these problems, then you are seeing the same things I was seeing when I was only using the two Belkins. (With the Linksys as the main router and the two Belkins bridged, web page access across the bridge is zippy and fine.)

[rji2goleez]

You would certainly need to change the router, and I guess changing the AP wouldn't hurt (I do have my AP set to "54G-Only").

That does seem long, even for TiVo Desktop. (I have a Mac, so I can't use TiVo Desktop to xfer shows.) I do use Galleon running on a Windows 98 machine, and a transfer from my model 140- TiVo (using a Linksys USB200M) takes about 23 minutes to transfer a 1 hour (basic quality) show to the Win98 box. That is about the same to xfer a show from a model 540- TiVo to my 140- over the bridge.

Another question: When you use the wireless from a notebook (or from a computer directly connected to the remote bridge), do you have any problems retrieving web pages? Is it "zippy", or are there lots of 5-10 second pauses (and possibly some 'not found' errors or missing graphics)? If you have these problems, then you are seeing the same things I was seeing when I was only using the two Belkins. (With the Linksys as the main router and the two Belkins bridged, web page access across the bridge is zippy and fine.)

I usually record at better than basic quality so maybe that's part of it too. But still, I'm not doing much better than I was on a straight 'b' wireless connection to Tivo.

As for your other question, once I reached connectivity everything was zippy. I don't trust my laptop because of the network configs on that thing that our IT dept puts on it. Everything is delayed on it. However, once connected through a desktop, accessing the internet through the AP was zippy.

I'm still puzzled by the xfer speed however. I need to go on the road for a day or two for work so I won't get to experiment until Wednesday.

Bob

[eibgrad]

Remember a few things here, any time you use mixed mode ("b" and "g" clients), you're going to hurt performance. Most of these wireless products will downgrade ALL clients to accomodate the slowest, that's the price you pay for supporting "b" clients too. So I strongly recommend you don't. I know Ashu, for example, supports his "b" clients on a DI-524 (IIRC), and has a Belkin in AP mode patched to it for "G" clients, which may be the Tivo's exclusively. As long as he maintains sufficient channel separation, he's OK. But most importantly, he keeps "b" and "g" clients on separate wireless networks.

I not only keep "b" clients off the G network (well, to be precise, I have no "b" clients, only "g"), but I also keep protected mode OFF. This prevents the overhead of checking for "b" clients when I know in fact I have none.

Another important point w/ these APs. If you use them for clients, such as your laptop, you have to remember that every "hop" from AP to AP (or AP to router) cuts your performance in HALF! Don't expect "peppy" performance when leapfrogging from AP to AP. Leapfrogging helps resolve "range" issues, but at the cost of performance. Just another reason NOT to use the APs for clients unless you have to. Of course, this doesn't affect the Tivo since it's wired to the AP, it's just one hop.

Finally, I strongly recommend using a USB 2.0 ethernet adapter on the Tivo's! Some ppl have been tempted to use USB 1.1 ethernet adapters because they save a few bucks, but this is problematic. USB 1.1 is limited to 11mbps, and even then, that's the theoretical limit, actual real world speed is much less (perhaps 6-7 mbps). However, w/ USB 2.0 adapters, you have a maximum of 480 mbps. Of course, your Tivo is likely limited to a USB 1.1 speed due to USB chipset limitations, but if you use a USB 2.0 adapter, you'll be able to maximize that USB 1.1 interface on the Tivo to the FULL 11 mbps. DON'T SCRIMP ON THE ETHERNET ADAPTERS! I use the D-Link DUB-E100, picked up two earlier this year for about $25 shipped on eBay, so they can be had cheap w/ some patience. Others use the Linksys USB200M, and there's the Netgear FA120. I just didn't notice a lot of details being provided about these adapters, it seemed to be something ppl were taking for granted, but it's a key component of the setup. Without the right adapters, you'll never fully exploit the G protocol w/ this setup.

eibgrad

[rji2goleez]

Eibgrab - Thanks for the additional information. I'm using the Netgear FA-120 as suggested by you here and throughout this thread. I'll be looking to make some the suggested changes you mention. I guess I need to investigate how to separate my tivo on a 'g' client so I can still use the laptop on 'b'.

[rji2goleez]

Thought. Can I use my belkin Pre-N as my router and then patch via ethernet a Belkin as an AP? Or better yet, if I can hardwire connect the 7230-4 to the Pre-N, what do I need to do the separate the Belkins on 'g'-only whereas the Pre-N continues to provide routing and 'b' support.

Bob

[eibgrad]

Thought. Can I use my belkin Pre-N as my router and then patch via ethernet a Belkin as an AP? Or better yet, if I can hardwire connect the 7230-4 to the Pre-N, what do I need to do the separate the Belkins on 'g'-only whereas the Pre-N continues to provide routing and 'b' support.

Bob

Yes, using a pre-N for the router but NOT using its wireless for bridging is fine. If all you do is patch a F5D7230-4 to that pre-N router w/ wire, then you haven't distorted the configuration. You are, in effect, doing what Ashu does, which is use one wireless network exclusively for the Tivo's, the other for clients. The only difference is, he's using a D-Link DI-524 to support "b'" clients, you're using a pre-N router for support of "n" clients. Other than that, it's identical.

Once you do, I recommend turning on 54G-Only mode w/ the Belkins APs to insure nothing but "g" is supported, and disabling client access to the APs to prevent errant usage. Both actions will add some security by, in effect, only allowing wired clients (i.e., your Tivo(s)). There's nothing "special" you have to do at that point. You simply configure all wireless clients (i.e., desktops, laptops), if any, to use the pre-N router. The only issue is the possibility of interference, which must be addressed in the typical fashion it always is -- good channel separation, perhaps keeping the units separated by some reasonable distance, etc.

eibgrad

[mpost43062]

So I have read through this thread and am still not clear if the setup I want will work. I would appreciate any pointers....thanks.

Current setup:
I have two desktop computers wirelessly connected to a linksys WRT54G (NOT running DHCP). That Linksys WRT54G is then wired to a vonage adapter (running DHCP). The vonage adapter is wired to my cable modem.

Desired setup:
I have three directivos with MRV that I would like to setup to talk to each other to transfer shows from one to the other and be able to connect to with my computers.

I would like to hard wire two of the directivos to the existing WRT54G (with the FA120 adapter). For the third one I would use an FA120 to a NEW WRT54G wirelessly connected to the existing WRT54G (both WRT54Gs using the SVEASOFT firmware).

Will this setup work so that the computers can connect to the directivos and directivos can talk to each other?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Mark

[rji2goleez]

Yes, using a pre-N for the router but NOT using its wireless for bridging is fine. If all you do is patch a F5D7230-4 to that pre-N router w/ wire, then you haven't distored the configuration. You are, in effect, doing what Ashu does, which is use one wireless network exclusively for the Tivo's, the other for clients. The only difference is, he's using a D-Link DI-524 to support "b'" clients, you're using a pre-N router for support of "n" clients. Other than that, it's identical.

Once you do, I recommend turning on 54G-Only mode w/ the Belkins APs to insure nothing but "g" is supported, and disabling client access to the APs to prevent errant usage. Both actions will add some security by, in effect, only allowing wired clients (i.e., your Tivo(s)). There's nothing "special" you have to do at that point. You simply configure all wireless clients (i.e., desktops, laptops), if any, to use the pre-N router. The only issue is the possibility of interference, which must be addressed in the typical fashion it always is -- good channel reception, perhaps keeping the units separated by some reasonable distance, etc.

eibgrad

Great! Now excuse my wireless and networking ignorance but I have several questions:

1) So if one Belkin is wired into the Pre-N I assume the desktop that will be negotiating with Tivo should also be hardwired to that same Belkin.

2) Would this desktop have internet access through the DHCP server (Pre-N) if hardwired to this Belkin? Will it have access to my home network through the Pre-N.

3) Do I use a different SSID for the Belkins than I do for the Pre-N? (Previously, I had both Belkins using the same SSID).

4) Will the desktop that is

5) I assume that if I do not allow clients on the Belkin APs, then other wirless devices will automatically seek out and use the Pre-N.

6) Now what if I want another wireless 'g' machine to access the Tivo 'g' network wirelessly? I assume that I can allow clients to the Belkin and even specify MAC address. How do I ensure it connects to the Belkin rather than the Pre-N.

Sorry for all these questions. I can build computers and operate sophisticated software but I'm a newbie when it comes to networking and wireless. This is defintely changing that scene.

You guys here are great and thanks for all the insights.

Bob

[eibgrad]

[1) So if one Belkin is wired into the Pre-N I assume the desktop that will be negotiating with Tivo should also be hardwired to that same Belkin.

>> If you mean for something like Tivo Desktop, or maintenance, it doesn't really matter. All the desktop has to do is communicate w/ the pre-N router, beit wired or wireless. Either way, the access to the Tivo is assured because any such TCP/IP request will be directed through the pre-N router, over to the attached Belkin AP, and run finally over to the Tivo via the Belkin wireless bridges. I'd only prefer to see wired for the same reasons I *always* prefer wired -- it's more secure, stable, faster, etc. Wireless for clients only provides convenience, virtually every other aspect is a negative. So wired is ALWAYS preferred, but as far as making this all work, it just doesn't matter.

2) Would this desktop have internet access through the DHCP server (Pre-N) if hardwired to this Belkin? Will it have access to my home network through the Pre-N.

>> To be precise, internet access is a function of the routing capability of the router. DHCP's only job is to assign IP configuration information from a centralized server, that being the router itself. Your desktop, laptop, Tivo(s), all of them, will get their configuration information from the pre-N router, since that's the ONLY one that should be configured to serve as a DHCP server. The Belkin's should configured ONLY as access points and wireless bridges. The Belkins, when configured as routers, normally provide DHCP, NAT, firewall, etc., but we're purposely reconfiguring them for this setup so all they do is provide little more than a wireless "link" between one or more APs. In fact, the Belkin's do almost nothing except provide this linkage. Almost everything else is provided by the pre-N router.

Once all clients in your home network are either using wired or wireless to connect to the pre-N router, they can all communicate as normal, Windows workgroup networking, share files and printers, all of it, is just as you would expect.

Remember something here, IMAGINE how this looks!, all we're doing is establishing a typical router and client home network, there's nothing special here. All wired and wireless clients use the pre-N router. The ONLY difference is that we've established a separate, EXCLUSIVE (i.e., no wireless clients) wireless network for the Tivo's, which is then "patched in" to the pre-N router over a LAN port. That's it. From that point, access between the pre-N network and Tivo network (for lack of a better term) is assured because they are patched together via the LAN ports! It's no different than if you daisy-chained one or more switches together -- once linked via wire, access flows freely between them.

3) Do I use a different SSID for the Belkins than I do for the Pre-N? (Previously, I had both Belkins using the same SSID).

>> Common sense would dictate this is a good idea. Not sure it would matter, but just from a maintenance point of view, since each is a separate wireless network, why use the same name? Why confuse the situation needlessly? Again, I don't think it would matter, but it doesn't make sense to use the same name anyway. So why bother.

4) Will the desktop that is

>> ??

5) I assume that if I do not allow clients on the Belkin APs, then other wirless devices will automatically seek out and use the Pre-N.

>> Nothing is automatic. I'm not familiar w/ pre-N, to be honest. If pre-N clients are backward compatible w/ B and G clients, then if both the pre-N and Belkin wireless networks are broadcasting their SSID, then sure, they'll each show up. Which is why I stated previously, why use the same SSID and confuse the setup process for clients?! Keep the SSID's different, then configure all clients to use the pre-N network (based on SSID). TIP: If you disable client access on the Belkin network, you'll add some security and have less chance of choosing the wrong network.

6) Now what if I want another wireless 'g' machine to access the Tivo 'g' network wirelessly? I assume that I can allow clients to the Belkin and even specify MAC address. How do I ensure it connects to the Belkin rather than the Pre-N.\

>> Hopefully this has already been made clear by previous answers. I assume by "wireless g machine" you mean another Tivo?? If so, you simply add another Belkin router in AP mode and hook it up like the others. If you mean a wireless "g" client, like a laptop or desktop, you may be missing the point.

Our attempt here, ideally, is to keep wireless clients OFF the "g" network used by the Tivo's. Initially this was a concern because being "b" compatible, some ppl were allowing "b" clients on the Tivo network as well, which then killed performance (that's how the issue got raised in the first place). It's just simpler and less hassle to keep ALL clients off the Belkin/Tivo network and leave it for the Tivo's exclusive use. Afterall, ppl are complaining about not getting realtime transfers already, why add more clients?! But if you DO want to add clients anyway to the Belkin/Tivo network, at the very least make sure they are "G" clients so that performance is maintained for the Tivo(s). But in all honesty, if you have the pre-N router, and it's backward compatible w/ G (and B) clients, why start introducing clients to the Belkin/Tivo network? What's the point? It's either nebulous, if you're lucky, or possibly hurts the performance of the Belkin/Tivo network if you accidentally introduce a rogue B client. My suggestion is KEEP EVERYTHING OFF THE BELKIN/TIVO NETWORK EXCEPT THE TIVOS! Less hassle, less confusion.

The ONLY justification for using the Belkin/Tivo network *might* be to extend the range of your clients. If, for example, you have a Tivo located at some far corner of the house, and a weak client adapter, say a roaming laptop, it's possible to connect THROUGH the Tivo's Belkin AP (if it's configured to allow clients), and thereby piggyback on that network up to the router. So it can be used in this fashion as a range extender, in a pinch. But remember that each AP hop cuts your performance IN HALF! Not to mention, anytime you allow client access, it potentially means someone else, a neighbor or hacker, has one more possible point of entry. We're trying to minimize points of entry as much as possible here, for security reasons. Finally, there's the issue of WPA. I can't confirm this, BUT, I've heard rumors to the effect that when client access is enabled on the Belkin/Tivo network, you can't use WPA, only WEP. That's a BIG difference, since WEP is very weak, while WPA is, for all intents and purposes here, unbreakable. Again, that's what I'm *hearing*, can't confirm as yet, but that alone would nail the issue down for me -- NO CLIENTS ON THE BELKIN/TIVO NETWORK!

HTH

eibgrad

[rji2goleez]

Eibgrab:

Guy, you are unbelievable. Thanks for the detailed, comprehensive and very understandable answers. I have full confidence now to go ahead. Some of these answers I expected but being a network neophyte, you've taught me a lot!

I'm returning home tonight. Can't wait to try it out. At least by this method, I won't have to disturb my wife and son who complain anytime I take the network down for more than five mintues. By this method, the Pre-N network stays up while I configure the belkin!

Thanks again. I hope I can be of similar help to you and others.

Bob

[rji2goleez]

OK, I'm still suffering from very slow transfer. Tivo Desktop shows an average of 80 minutes for a 30 minute show at high quality. A on hour show recorded at Best quality is listed in Tivo Desktop to take 3 hours. Here are the details of my setup:

Belkin Pre-N router
Provides DHCP to workstations around my home.
Mixed mode (b, g and pre-n)
Wireless channel: 11
Encryption: 128 WEP
SSID: Name1
IP Address Pool: 192.168.2.1 though 100
Bridging not supported

Belkin 7230-4 AP1
Attached to Belkin Pre-N via ethernet (lan port to lan port)
Wireless channel: 3
SSID: Tivog
Encryption: None
Mode: 'g' only
Protection mode: off
Frame Burst: I tried both normal and burst mode
AP Only; IP 192.168.2.101
Disabled wireless client
Bridging enabled (entered MAC address of AP2; also tried entering both WAN and WAN/LAN MAC addresses)

Belkin 7320-4 AP2
Attached via LAN port to FA-120 (USB 2.0) and Tivo USB port (Humax DRT 800)
Wireless channel: 3
ssid: Tivog
Encryption: None
Mode: 'g' only
Protection mode: off
Frame Burst: Tried both normal and burst mode
AP Only; IP 192.168.2.102
Disabled wireless client
Bridging enabled (entered MAC address of AP1; also tried entering both WAN and WAN/LAN MAC addresses)

AP1 is in the same room as the Belkin Pre-N about 10 ft apart.
AP1 and AP2 are separated by 1 wall about 20 ft apart.
I've played with attennas, moved the APs, changed the wireless channel and these transfer times appear to be the best I can achieve.

What's wrong. This is no better than my wireless 'b' connection direct to the Tivo. I am stumped. Will an AP near a TV or stereo speakers affect performance? How about an AP near a computer or monitor? I've tried to account for these things but how close is close?

Bob

One more point, whether meaningful or not. I tested the desktop with Tivo Desktop attached both the Belkin Pre-N and AP1 via ethernet.

[eibgrad]

OK, I'm still suffering from very slow transfer. Tivo Desktop shows an average of 80 minutes for a 30 minute show at high quality. A on hour show recorded at Best quality is listed in Tivo Desktop to take 3 hours. Here are the details of my setup:

Belkin Pre-N router
Provides DHCP to workstations around my home.
Mixed mode (b, g and pre-n)
Wireless channel: 11
Encryption: 128 WEP
SSID: Name1
IP Address Pool: 192.168.2.1 though 100
Bridging not supported

Belkin 7230-4 AP1
Attached to Belkin Pre-N via ethernet (lan port to lan port)
Wireless channel: 3
SSID: Tivog
Encryption: None
Mode: 'g' only
Protection mode: off
Frame Burst: I tried both normal and burst mode
AP Only; IP 192.168.2.101
Disabled wireless client
Bridging enabled (entered MAC address of AP2; also tried entering both WAN and WAN/LAN MAC addresses)

Belkin 7320-4 AP2
Attached via LAN port to FA-120 (USB 2.0) and Tivo USB port (Humax DRT 800)
Wireless channel: 3
ssid: Tivog
Encryption: None
Mode: 'g' only
Protection mode: off
Frame Burst: Tried both normal and burst mode
AP Only; IP 192.168.2.102
Disabled wireless client
Bridging enabled (entered MAC address of AP1; also tried entering both WAN and WAN/LAN MAC addresses)

AP1 is in the same room as the Belkin Pre-N about 10 ft apart.
AP1 and AP2 are separated by 1 wall about 20 ft apart.
I've played with attennas, moved the APs, changed the wireless channel and these transfer times appear to be the best I can achieve.

What's wrong. This is no better than my wireless 'b' connection direct to the Tivo. I am stumped. Will an AP near a TV or stereo speakers affect performance? How about an AP near a computer or monitor? I've tried to account for these things but how close is close?

Bob

One more point, whether meaningful or not. I tested the desktop with Tivo Desktop attached both the Belkin Pre-N and AP1 via ethernet.

Ok, a quick skim of the setup looks good (btw, leave frame bursting ON, that's fine). But I want a clarification. When you speak of taking 80mins to transfer a 30 min show, are you talking about a tranfer from Tivo to your desktop, OR, Tivo to Tivo?

The reason I ask is, when I say I get realtime transfers w/ Tivo using this setup, I'm talking about Tivo to Tivo. NOT Tivo to desktop. Even *I* don't get that kind of performance w/ Tivo to desktop. I'm also seeing MUCH longer transfer times from Tivo to desktop compared to Tivo to Tivo. Although I don't know w/ absolute certainty the reason, I suspect there's additional overhead associated w/ Tivo to desktop transfers, and what might that be? I suspect that DRM and encryption are a major source of the problem. IOW, it's not the network that's the problem, it's the overhead of adding DRM and encryption!

Now frankly, there have been others in this forum that claim their desktop to Tivo transfers are comparable to their Tivo to Tivo transfers. But I, personally, have never been able to achieve it. And I have TWO (2) Humax DRT800 Tivo's, and the performance discrepancy exists w/ both units. So this would tend to indicate this is NOT a configuration issue. As I said, given no other evidence, it seems to me it has to be processing overhead on the Tivo and/or desktop, NOT the network.

UPDATE: If you want to do a quick test, try this (assuming you have the cabling and it's practical). Remember that this configuration of the Belkin/Tivo network is a *substitute* for wire. It is LITERALLY possible to pull the ethernet cable on the Tivo side from the Tivo's ethernet adapter, then pull the Belkin AP's ethernet plug from the pre-N router and substitute a standard ol' ethernet cable on both ends, and have it work, UNCHANGED! So what you could do is, assuming you have sufficient ethernet cable, pull those plugs and substitute the ethernet cable. Now test your transfers. If the transfers are no faster, then it's not the network. Afterall, the USB 1.1 interface of the Tivo is maxed out at 11mbps, no matter whether we use wire or wireless. Therefore, ANY difference between wired and wireless should be neglible. And if that's the case, the wireless setup is irrelevant, the system is not bounded by the network configuration, but lies elsewhere (and I suspect it's the DRM/encryption process).

eibgrad

[c3]

Tivo Desktop shows an average of 80 minutes for a 30 minute show at high quality.

With 540040, Netgear FA120, and Belkin routers, a 30-minute High quality show is transferred from TiVo to PC in about 40-45 minutes. Have you tried replacing the wireless bridge with an ethernet cable? If performance is the same, then the problem is not in the wireless bridge.

[rji2goleez]

Ok, a quick skim of the setup looks good (btw, leave frame bursting ON, that's fine). But I want a clarification. When you speak of taking 80mins to transfer a 30 min show, are you talking about a tranfer from Tivo to your desktop, OR, Tivo to Tivo?

The reason I ask is, when I say I get realtime transfers w/ Tivo using this setup, I'm talking about Tivo to Tivo. NOT Tivo to desktop. Even *I* don't get that kind of performance w/ Tivo to desktop. I'm also seeing MUCH longer transfer times from Tivo to desktop compared to Tivo to Tivo. Although I don't know w/ absolute certainty the reason, I suspect there's additional overhead associated w/ Tivo to desktop transfers, and what might that be? I suspect that DRM and encryption are a major source of the problem. IOW, it's not the network that's the problem, it's the overhead of adding DRM and encryption!

Now frankly, there have been others in this forum that claim their desktop to Tivo transfers are comparable to their Tivo to Tivo transfers. But I, personally, have never been able to achieve it. And I have TWO (2) Humax DRT800 Tivo's, and the performance discrepancy exists w/ both units. So this would tend to indicate this is NOT a configuration issue. As I said, given no other evidence, it seems to me it has to be processing overhead on the Tivo and/or desktop, NOT the network.

UPDATE: If you want to do a quick test, try this (assuming you have the cabling and it's practical). Remember that this configuration of the Belkin/Tivo network is a *substitute* for wire. It is LITERALLY possible to pull the ethernet cable on the Tivo side from the Tivo's ethernet adapter, then pull the Belkin AP's ethernet plug from the pre-N router and substitute a standard ol' ethernet cable on both ends, and have it work, UNCHANGED! So what you could do is, assuming you have sufficient ethernet cable, pull those plugs and substitute the ethernet cable. Now test your transfers. If the transfers are no faster, then it's not the network. Afterall, the USB 1.1 interface of the Tivo is maxed out at 11mbps, no matter whether we use wire or wireless. Therefore, ANY difference between wired and wireless should be neglible. And if that's the case, the wireless setup is irrelevant, the system is not bounded by the network configuration, but lies elsewhere (and I suspect it's the DRM/encryption process).

eibgrad

I am talking about a Tivo to desktop transfer. I'll have to try the straight ethernet route just to satisfy my curiosity. But so far the gains, if any, of this setup is slim to none compared to my wireless b adapter straight out of the Tivo to the Belkin Pre-N. I'll just raid our IT dept for about 30ft of cat 5.

[rji2goleez]

With 540040, Netgear FA120, and Belkin routers, a 30-minute High quality show is transferred from TiVo to PC in about 40-45 minutes. Have you tried replacing the wireless bridge with an ethernet cable? If performance is the same, then the problem is not in the wireless bridge.

Assuming a straight ethernet connection achieves 40-45 minutes on my setup, what could be the issue with the wireless bridge?

[Rallyman]

Your setup is almost 100% identical to mine, same DI-624 router, wireless off, belkin AP patched to router, and two Tivo's using bridged Belkins.

I've yet to be able to enable WPA as others have w/ this configuration, undoubtedly the biggest security issue for me. Only using WEP so I have at least something. As I indicated in a previous post, I found some info on why I may be having a problem, others are reporting that if you have a wireless client (usb, pci, etc.) using those APs, then WPA won't work. I've yet to confirm it.

...<SNIP>...

But never kid yourself about all the non-WPA stuff, it's merely to throw a few obstacles up. But a determined hacker can break though with enough time and effort. WEP helps a smidgen, but WPA is really your only real protection in the long run.

eibgrad

I'm having the same problem you are with respect to WPA. Thanks for the tip, if you find a work around please post, I'll do the same. As to the determined hacker, if they really have to get into "my" system at all costs they'll do whatever it takes including breaking in the house to get physical access. I'm only trying to keep the script kiddies out :)

On another note, I want to say how happy I am with the speed of transfers. What a very pleasant surprise. In my first test of the speed I transferred a 30 minute show recorded at medium quality from one TiVo to the other. I started the transfer, counted to 15, then hit play. The transfer completed 10 minutes before the program ended and without a single glitch.

If that wasn't enough, going to this setup has helped my marriage. My wife is thrilled that the two 50 ft. patch cords are no longer running along the carpet all over the house... :p Sometimes it takes so little to make them happy. ;)

Rallyman

[eibgrad]

Just a word to everyone on this thread regarding this wireless bridge setup.

Remember that this setup was originated in response for the need to transfer Tivo to Tivo, NOT Tivo to desktop. Tivo to desktop is a recent phenomenon, it only came to the table w/ the introduction of TivoToGo. IOW, no one is guaranteeing that Tivo to desktop transfers will be the same as Tivo to Tivo. The former was never the objective, certainly not when the majority of us went down this path (the option didn't even exist at the time).

That said, it's not obvious why *some* of us are having these dramatic differences in performance between Tivo to Tivo, vs. Tivo to desktop. Some ppl seems to be achieving similar performance, ppl like myself are not. Indeed, my Tivo to desktop performance is AWFUL. It's hard to understand how simply communicating w/ the desktop application (server) vs. another Tivo could result in such a dramatic difference in performance. All I can do is guess that it's related to DRM/encryption of the video stream when delivered to the PC (seems logical Tivo would want to secure that content more than Tivo to Tivo transfers). But this is pure conjecture. It is curious as well that other Humax DRT800 users are having problems just like I am, but those w/ other units are not. Maybe this is germane, maybe it's an issue related to specific make and model. Again, just speculating.

But I just want it to be clear that no one has GUARANTEEED Tivo to desktop transfers "as yet" that are comparable to Tivo to Tivo. Indeed, I myself reported these discrepancies some time ago (the TivoToGo feature only became available for the Humax DRT800 around June/July). Until the culprit is determined, Tivo to desktop performance remains "a work in progress". I can't in good conscience mislead ppl into thinking that wireless bridging is what I'm recommending for TivoToGo. I'm not, I never have. It was simply a natural extension of the original objective that came AFTER the fact. Many, many users got handed TivoToGo long before us Humax users did (in fact, I thought it would never come). Then it was there one day, and bamm, suddenly I notice these ridiculous transfer times w/ Tivo to desktop. To date, I have no answer. If anyone finds the answer, of course, let us know!

eibgrad

[c3]

Assuming a straight ethernet connection achieves 40-45 minutes on my setup, what could be the issue with the wireless bridge?

Bad Belkin router, excessive interference, etc. You can remove TiVo from the equation by transferring data through the wireless bridge, with another PC/laptop instead of the TiVo.

[eibgrad]

Bad Belkin router, excessive interference, etc. You can remove TiVo from the equation by transferring data through the wireless bridge, with another PC/laptop instead of the TiVo.

I have the same Humax, only the belkin wireless (so no interference issues, not from another wireless network of mine anyway), and get realtime Tivo to Tivo transfers, yet have the same problem w/ Tivo to desktop.

This leads me to believe it's not an interference issue. And it's not a small difference in performance, it's BIG! There's something else going on here.

eibgrad

[c3]

I have the same Humax, only the belkin wireless (so no interference issues, not from another wireless network of mine anyway), and get realtime Tivo to Tivo transfers, yet have the same problem w/ Tivo to desktop.

This leads me to believe it's not an interference issue. And it's not a small difference in performance, it's BIG! There's something else going on here.

eibgrad

What kind of transfer rate are you getting? For me, TiVo to TiVo is about twice as fast as TiVo to PC. That is normal.

[eibgrad]

What kind of transfer rate are you getting? For me, TiVo to TiVo is about twice as fast as TiVo to PC. That is normal.

It's been so bad, I hardly use it and had to try just now to recall. I grabbed a 30 min show (High Quality), it's telling me 1 hr, 27 mins. Of course, this is shifting a bit over time, looks to me it will probably avg. out to 1 hr, 15 mins.

As far as your claim that Tivo to desktop being DOUBLE is normal, how do we know that? Is that what others are reporting? I have seen some ppl claiming nearly identical times, at worst maybe a 30 min show taking 45 mins from Tivo to desktop.

Is this as I suspect related to DRM/encryption? Anyone know for sure?

eibgrad

[c3]

As far as your claim that Tivo to desktop being DOUBLE is normal, how do we know that? Is that what others are reporting? I have seen some ppl claiming nearly identical times, at worst maybe a 30 min show taking 45 mins from Tivo to desktop.

There is another thread in which people reported transfer rates. My transfer rates are similar to other people's rates with similar machines.

TiVo-TiVo and TiVo-PC transfer rates should not be similar. TiVo-TiVo just sends the file from one unit to another. No encryption/conversion is necessary. Target should be an exact copy of the source, including glitches. TiVo-PC transfer requires the data to be processed by software first. That code has problem with error handling because a video glitch would terminate the TiVo-PC transfer.

juanian reported similar transfer rates "from 140 to PC" and "from 540 to 140". That makes sense because "from 140" is faster than "from 540", but "to 140" is faster than "to PC".

It sounds like the Humax DRT is twice as slow as the 540 for TiVo-PC transfer. Maybe the DRT has more resource limitations than the 540.

[eibgrad]

There is another thread in which people reported transfer rates. My transfer rates are similar to other people's rates with similar machines.

TiVo-TiVo and TiVo-PC transfer rates should not be similar. TiVo-TiVo just sends the file from one unit to another. No encryption/conversion is necessary. Target should be an exact copy of the source, including glitches. TiVo-PC transfer requires the data to be processed by software first. That code has problem with error handling because a video glitch would terminate the TiVo-PC transfer.

juanian reported similar transfer rates "from 140 to PC" and "from 540 to 140". That makes sense because "from 140" is faster than "from 540", but "to 140" is faster than "to PC".

It sounds like the Humax DRT is twice as slow as the 540 for TiVo-PC transfer. Maybe the DRT has more resource limitations than the 540.

Thanx, that's helpful info. You may be right about the Humax, perhaps it's a different processor, less memory, whatever, but it would be interesting to know if ALL Humax DRT800's suffer as badly as mine, I suspect so. I just can't imagine there's any other explanation for it, it's hard to imagine how the wireless config could have any impact.

eibgrad

[ashu]

Huh - I always thought the 540 and the DRT800 were the same (cheaper USB combo CPU chipset) Series "2.5" units, and should have similar performance.

I have a 240 (original Series 2) and it is fast compared to the DRT800, but not by a massive factor. And I understand the 540 is also correspondingly slower than the 240.
(all discussions refer to transfers FROM the units in question).

FYI, the DRT800 and the Toshiba RSX20 seem essentially identical, when it comes to transfer speeds (all things cnofigured equally/identically). However, my RSX20 has a wired path to my media PC, while the DRT800 has to make a (Belkin) Wireless Bridge jump.

One of these days, I'm going to move my units around and re-benchmark a few transfers with (sets of) identical configs.

[juanian]

. . .
TiVo-TiVo and TiVo-PC transfer rates should not be similar. TiVo-TiVo just sends the file from one unit to another. No encryption/conversion is necessary. . . .For an "off the shelf" Series 2 TiVo, the files are encrypted with a hardware-specific key (unique to each TiVo box), and does need to be decrypted to even be played on the same TiVo. I don't know if the decryption is done through hardware or software, and I also don't know if the hardware-specific decryption/encryption is more or less time-consuming than the DRM encryption, but it is encrypted. Actually, I don't even know if the DRM encryption is done through hardware or software either. (I guess I know very little about this!)

My hardware setup:
Linksys WRT54G router (connected to cable modem, Win98 box)
Belkin F5D7230-4 router (wired to Linksys and 540 TiVo)
Belkin F5D7230-4 router (as Access Point, set up in WDS mode to bridge to other Belkin via 802.11g) (wired to 140 TiVo)

Some simple timing tests I just performed using a 5 minute recording at Basic quality (60 MB) (time starts when the screen with the "Start Playing" appears, and time ends when data stops transfering):
TiVo (540) to TiVo (140) using MRV over wireless g bridge, both TiVos set to an "empty" channel (not recording Live TV): 1:10
540 playing live TV to 140 playing show being transferred: 1:45
Both recording live TV but not playing: 1:30

Note that the transfer took 50% longer if both TiVos were recording and playing while the transfer was occurring. (Remember, a TiVo is "always" recording, whether it is live TV or another show.) When I'm doing something (like forcing a connection or doing a transfer) and I don't care about live TV, I usually set my TiVo to channel 0 (which, for me, is the unconnected AV inputs). Now I have a better idea of just how much faster things happen when I do that! (Plus, it reduces wear and tear on the hard drive!)

I did some timing tests using Galleon 1.9 running on a Win98 box:
140 to Win98, playing live TV: 1:55
140 to Win98, "empty" channel: 1:55
540 to Win98, recording live TV and playing something else: 3:25
540 to Win98, recording live TV, not playing show: 3:15

Amazingly (but not surprisingly), the 140 (connected wirelessly) transfers much faster than the 540 (wired). Imagine (if I had the ability) also trying to burn a DVD at the same time! It is interesting that the time differences between recording and not recording were much smaller when using Galleon than using MRV.

I can't do timing tests using TiVo Desktop because I primarily use a Mac (possibly to be supported by mid-2006!), and don't have easy access to a WinXP machine (but my old 128MB Win98 PC runs Galleon just fine, as long as I don't plan on doing much else at the same time). I would expect that Galleon timings would be comparable to TiVo Desktop, but I can't tell. (Hopefully I can use TiVo Dektop with OS X 10.3 and will not need to upgrade to whatever the current OS is that time.)

EDIT: From what I have read, a model 140 only has USB 1.1 hardware, but a model 240 has USB 2.0 hardware. Also, 140's have the fan vents at the lower left and right sides of the TiVo, and 240's have the fan at the back.

EDIT2: Sorry about the topic drift of this post. Hopefully, this post is still on-topic enough (since it includes timings of wireless vs. wired).

[Bruzer]

I have a Toshiba RS-TX20 that I would like to network to my PC. I can get two Netgear WGR614 wireless routers fairly cheap ($10 each) and was wondering whether I can use those to make the wireless connection? The first router would be connected to my cable modem and a wired connection to my PC. The second would be next to my TiVo, with a USB 2.0 adapter connecting the router to the TiVo.

Thanks for any and all help :)

[Grimm1]

When I poured through this post about 8 months ago it seemed the consensus was that if you had to use wireless the best way to do it at the time was with a wired LAN adapter plugged into the tivo with the other end plugged into a wireless G access point.

Does that still ring true or has the wireless G support improved enough to just go with a straight wireless adapter?

[azitnay]

The point of this thread has always been to achieve the best possible wireless throughput by removing all notions of wireless from the TiVo (allowing it to do what it does best, wired ethernet) and allowing third-party hardware to handle the wireless side.

I doubt native wireless G support will ever be quite as good as this "ultimate" setup on the current TiVo hardware.

Drew

[mrtim]

This is perhaps slightly off topic, but given that so many people in this thread mention this hardware I thought it might be worthwhile.

I just had my old WRT54G router die on me, so I figured I would just go get a new one. BZZT, wrong answer. Apparently around here the only units that can be found are version 5 of this router. V5 is using a new proprietary operating system and a complete ground-up rewrite of the firmware. This means:

- the firmware is a bit on the limp side at the moment. While I was getting fine wireless rates (noticeably better than my v1), my broadband throughput was cut at least in half. I imagine they will fix this in time, but this was not acceptable to me. Before buying of these in the future I would recommend googling "wrt54G v5" and see if this has been fixed. Right now you'll see nothing but a long list of complaints.

- none of the 3rd party firmware will work on this version, and may never work in the future due to both the nature of the OS and the reduced physical memory.

I ended up returning the WRT54G and getting a WRT54GS, which is the speedbooster model. The speedbooster-ness does nothing for me unless I buy new wireless adapters, but this model still uses the older OS and functions at full speed.

Just thought you'd like to know . . .

[juanian]

Thanks for the heads-up on the WRT54G V5 update. I guess it's not just Belkin that totally updates the innards (and sometimes the complete exterior) of an item, changing (reducing) its functionality, and leaves the model number the same.

[Grimm1]

The point of this thread has always been to achieve the best possible wireless throughput by removing all notions of wireless from the TiVo (allowing it to do what it does best, wired ethernet) and allowing third-party hardware to handle the wireless side.

I doubt native wireless G support will ever be quite as good as this "ultimate" setup on the current TiVo hardware.

Drew

OK thanks

So I missed out on all the awesome Belkin rebate deals. But this week CC has the F5D72304 on sale for $30 (no rebate). But I saw one post that mentioned the new versions of this model do not allow setting them up as a WAP. Has this been comfirmed and is there anyway from looking at the box what version you are getting?

[c3]

OK thanks

So I missed out on all the awesome Belkin rebate deals. But this week CC has the F5D72304 on sale for $30 (no rebate). But I saw one post that mentioned the new versions of this model do not allow setting them up as a WAP. Has this been comfirmed and is there anyway from looking at the box what version you are getting?

WDS, not WAP. Version is usually printed on a sticker on the box. Old versions 200x and 300x have two antennas. The new version 400x has one antenna and does not support WDS.

[Grimm1]

WDS, not WAP. Version is usually printed on a sticker on the box. Old versions 200x and 300x have two antennas. The new version 400x has one antenna and does not support WDS.My misstake....but that would still be a bad thing right?

[Rallyman]

My misstake....but that would still be a bad thing right?

If you want to setup your network as described above then yes, it's a bad thing.

The newer Belkin f5d7230-4 (specifically ver. 4000) do not support WDS. As I was not able to locate any earlier versons in my area I used Belkin f5d7230 Wireless Range Extender/Access Point. Basically the same thing. (It just doesn't have any router capabilities).

I found them at the local Fry's for $30 each. Still a bargain considering what most wireless bridges go for.

[pcar1947]

I am using a WRt54GS with the Original Ultimate Setup. I noticed a decent improvement in Reliabiity and Transmit rates when I upgraded the Firmware to Version : v4.70.6 - HyperWRT 2.1b1 - Thibor . I configured the transmit rate to 67% and it has been awesome. http://www.hyperwrt.org/

[Grimm1]

If you want to setup your network as described above then yes, it's a bad thing.

The newer Belkin f5d7230-4 (specifically ver. 4000) do not support WDS. As I was not able to locate any earlier versons in my area I used Belkin f5d7230 Wireless Range Extender/Access Point. Basically the same thing. (It just doesn't have any router capabilities).

I found them at the local Fry's for $30 each. Still a bargain considering what most wireless bridges go for.Hmmm....I might have to go that route. I wasn't planning on using the Belkin as a router anyways and had not noticed that there was a "routerless" model that could accomplish the same thing.

[MickeS]

I was tinkering with my wireless networking today. I used to have my pc connected to a DWL-G122 usb wireless adapter, and the TiVo connected wired to the D-Link DI-524 router, using a D-Link DUB-E100 USB-Ethernet adapter. With that setup, I got a decent (I thought) transfer speed, about 600-700 kB/s. It was enough to do better than real-time transfers for medium recordings (my default).

Anyway, today I finally got around to connecting a D-Link DWL-G810 wireless bridge to my PC, replacing the G122. Wow, what a difference! My speeds are now constantly between 1000 - 1200 kB/s, with the most common speed being around 1050kB/s.

This isn't a "true" wireless setup, since the TiVo is wired to the router, but I was amazed at the difference in speed between the G122 and the bridge on the PC side!

If I need to move the router, I will get another bridge and connect to the TiVo. I wonder if the speed will stay the same?

[azitnay]

This isn't a "true" wireless setup

No... It's better :).

If I need to move the router, I will get another bridge and connect to the TiVo. I wonder if the speed will stay the same?

Since the bottleneck at this point is most likely the TiVo's processing power, you'll most likely notice little or no speed dropoff if you introduce another bridge (unless the connectivity between the bridge and the router is less than ideal).

Drew

[MickeS]

Well, now I'm back to slower transfers, although they are slightly faster than before (around 700-800 kB/s now). I have no idea why! For 2 days, i got the 1000-1200 kB/s speed, and then all of a sudden last night it's down again. I haven't changed anything in the setup!

Argh... anyone know what might have happened? :)

[Rallyman]

Well, now I'm back to slower transfers, although they are slightly faster than before (around 700-800 kB/s now). I have no idea why! For 2 days, i got the 1000-1200 kB/s speed, and then all of a sudden last night it's down again. I haven't changed anything in the setup!

Argh... anyone know what might have happened? :)

What kind of security are you using? Is it possible that you have an uninvited guest on your wireless network sucking up all the bandwidth?

Just a thought.

[Grimm1]

I ended up finding some F5D7230-4 v3000 at Frys a few days ago. I bought 2 and a cheapy USB NIC by TrendNet. Fry's didn't have any of the adapters on the TiVo list so I figured for $12 I'd give the TrendNet a shot and the TiVo recognized it without a problem.

I configured the 2 belkin routers as wireless bridges/AP and plugged one into my D-Link router so that it is still handling the firewall and plugged the other into the TiVo (This is after I plugged each into my PC and configured them first). The only glitch that I ran into was when I set the security to WPA on both of them they both disappeared from my network. When I turn security off or set it to 128bit WEP they work just fine and the TiVo Desktop can see my TiVo and vice versa.

Any suggestions on how to get WPA-AES to work in this environment or should I just leave it with the WEP?

[c3]

There may be two potential causes:

1. WPA/bridge works with one router and one (or more?) AP only. eibgrad could not get it to work with two APs, either.
2. v3000 does not work with WPA/bridge.

WPA/bridge works with one router and one AP, for v200x hardware.

[eibgrad]

There may be two potential causes:

1. WPA/bridge works with one router and one (or more?) AP only. eibgrad could not get it to work with two APs, either.
2. v3000 does not work with WPA/bridge.

WPA/bridge works with one router and one AP, for v200x hardware.

Finally got around to making one last attempt to implement WPA over my Belkin wireless setup, no dice. Changed both router/APs to disable clients, added WPA, same problem. I just can't figure out the "magic" that makes this work for some and not others. I appear to have the "right" equipment (version), but it just never works for me. Oh well, WEP it will have to be for the time being.

[c3]

eibgrad, aren't you using the Belkins as APs only? I have one as router and one as AP.

[eibgrad]

eibgrad, aren't you using the Belkins as APs only? I have one as router and one as AP.

Yeah, but IIRC, Ashu has an AP only setup too, and working WPA.

[Grimm1]

Also is it normal for the "Internet Status" to show as "No Connection" on the Belkin AP's? I plugged my PC into both and they do have Internet connectivity as well as the TiVo is accessing the internet so it is working....just thought it was odd that they both indicate that they are NOT connected to the internet.

[eibgrad]

Also is it normal for the "Internet Status" to show as "No Connection" on the Belkin AP's? I plugged my PC into both and they do have Internet connectivity as well as the TiVo is accessing the internet so it is working....just thought it was odd that they both indicate that they are NOT connected to the internet.

If both/all are configured as APs, then it *isn't* connected to the Internet! Yeah, you can *access* the Internet, but the AP is reporting NOT connected because it's WAN port (as opposed to LAN port) is NOT connected to the Internet.

[juanian]

I have WPA working, but I have one v2002 and one v3001; I don't know if two v300x can wireless bridge and do WPA (see this post (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3503286#post3503286) for my setup).

I don't allow wireless connections to the bridges, and I don't know if that makes a difference with WPA. But, do make sure that your SSID is different for the wireless bridges than your 'main' network.

[angel35]

Does any one know about the new Tivo wireless adapter Tivo-AGO-100 it may be on sale through Tivo web site.It connect to 802.11.g or 802.11.b It has a Tivo logo on it.

[azitnay]

It's not on topic for this thread, but what do you want to know about it? It's available from http://www.tivo.com/2.7.1.asp.

Drew

[jazz_man]

OK, so after 3 days trying to get this piece of #$@^# to work, I realize that it (at least mine) simply doesn't.

Setup:

HR10-250 hacked with Zipper
Linksys WRT54GS Router w/ WRT-DD Firmware (Nice!)
Linksys WGA54G (Upgraded Firmware to 1.1 from Linksys FTP)
Netgear FA-120 (After returning the Linksys USB200M V2)

Followed instructions to configure the game adapter. No WEP, correct SSID etc. Set to G only mode (Is that bad?) Using my laptop to test I'm able to ping the router from the adapter and ping a pc connected via the adapter from another PC. However, when I hook the game adapter to my TIVO (Hard-coded IP 192.168.0.50 and Router's GW address), I'm unable to ping the TIVO through a PC connected to the router! Unfortunately you can't ping the game adapter's IP without being directly connected to it (Uh!). Disconnect game adapter, and hook laptop ethernet directly to Tivo - works great. Telnet, FTP, etc. Eliminated the router by putting it in client-bridging mode and connecting it to the Tivo. Works perfect with my 802.11B wireless AP.

So unless some genius takes pity on me and 1) provides some mysterious procedure I haven't tried/followed 2) Confirms this setup doesn't work

it looks like I will have to return the game adapter and replace it with either a D-Link DWL-G820 game adapter or a netgear WGE111 game adapter, or another Linksys WRT54GS router running in client-bridge mode. Man this is way harder than it should be.

My kingdom for a solution!!

:)

[DMaddox]

My experience is ALL Belkin, but the concepts are the same regardless of brand.

I assume these WRT54GS units are routers that support bridging (i.e., WDS). All we're doing with these bridges is substituting your current setup, which uses client-based USB wireless adapters, with these bridges via standard USB ethernet adapters (USB200M). By doing so, it simply pushes the wireless configuration OUTSIDE the Tivo, and thus eliminating compatibility issues. The only compatibility issue for Tivo remains ethernet adapters, which is trivial (USB200M is supported, so is my D-Link DUB-E100, among others).

THAT'S IT! That's all we're doing. Once the wireless configuration is pushed out to the bridges, it's just standard configuration issues. The Tivo's are ignorant of any wireless issues, as far as the Tivo's are concerned, they're connected via *wire* and should be configured as such. So all you do now is configure your bridges so they can communicate with your third wireless router (WRT54GS). I presume this is replacing your current BEFW11S4 802.11b router.

At this point, it could vary slightly by brand. Some routers can only be configured as a router OR wireless bridge, not both. For these types, you'd have to configure the third router (WRT54GS in your case) as another bridge, then patch over LAN ports to your existing BEFW11S4 (might make sense to disable the BEFW11S4 wireless at that point if you intend to go ALL 802.11g). IOW, the third WRT54GS is merely a drop-point for other bridges and other 802.11g clients to the BEFW11S4.

In other cases, the third router can be configured as a router AND bridged. In that case, you'd simply replace your existing BEFW11S4 w/ the new WRT54GS router and you're done.

I'm offering both possibilities simply because I don't know the capabilities of the WRT54GS router. You'll have to determine that for yourself.

Believe me, once you set it up and see it in action, you'll look back on it and realize it was a lot harder and more complicated to explain than it actually is in action. The biggest leap people have to overcome is understanding that all we're doing is pushing the wireless issues OUTSIDE the Tivo. Once that's done, it's straight forward wireless configuration issues, only we're using bridges and not client-based adapters like the wusb11.

eibgrad
Wow, what great info on this thread. I need advice, please, from some of you who have lived this!!! I have 3 Series2 590s (Humax: 1 80 hr, 2 40's). 6 months ago I bought a Belkin "G" router (F5D7230-4, ver. 3000) and a bunch of Belkin F5D7050 ver. 2000 USB adapters when they were practically giving them away. Alas, I now know the adapters do not work. I have the router working with my new Windows XP PC and cable modem.

Now that TiVo has come out with their own adapter for $50, from a cost perspective, I could go with 3 of those for what I could get USB-to-Ethernet adapters plus 3 more Belkin F5D7230-4's to set up as APs. However, will one setup offer significant transfer improvement speeds over the other? Any and all suggestions would be helpful. Thanks in advance.

[BostonBob]

This is an incredible thread! I spent most of the day yesterday digesting it. Santa gave me a new TiVo for Christmas. I purchased the latest NetGear RangeMax wireless router and USB adapter hoping to introduce a wireless network to my home and hook up my TiVo at the same time. That was before doing research. All of you know what I found out on this forum. My conclusion ... TiVo is way behind. If I'd known all of this before asking Santa for a TiVo box, I probably would have left it off the list. Until 802.11g is implemented with USB 2.0 and WPA, networking is too risky and too slow. I won't go there. Having it networked was one of the features I was really looking forward to. Now I have to run a phone cord the length of my living room and in front of my fireplace?!?!

I hope this isn't too far off topic. I applaud those of you who have figured out how to cludge this system's shortcomings into something that works. For me it's too much for mediocre (USB 1.1 thoughput) results. You'd think that implementing USB 2.0 would be at the top of the list...what an incredible improvement to already capable hardware (acknowledging there may be processing limitations impacting full bandwidth). And TiVo has their "G" adapter out now. Hopefully, they'll follow on with the other missing pieces soon. For a company on the brink, it seems like plugging this hole might really help sales to those of us interested in networked multimedia solutions.

Thanks to C3, eibgrad and vlxjim for being particularly helpful to my understanding of the issues.

[azitnay]

Hmm... USB 2.0 -is- implemented (since 7.x), and yes, there are processing limitations impacting full bandwidth.

Drew

[BostonBob]

Thanks for the update Azitnay. My box came out of the carton with a v 5 something software version. I have gotten an upgrade to v 7.2.1 subsequently, but missed discussions here about v 7.x fixing the USB 1.1 issue. Thanks! That's one of two out of the way.

[Seattle]

I have a question about the Belkin F5D7230-4 wireless router. Under the wireless bridge setting is has an option to disable wireless clients.
"Disable ability for Wireless CLIENTS to connect. (This feature should only be used when the AP is used exclusively to connect wirelessly to other APs.) "
I used this option on all five of my Belkin routers. (I have two other routers for my computers to use with WAP security)
Is this a secure way to prevent access to my wireless network?

[c3]

Is this a secure way to prevent access to my wireless network?

It's more secure than allowing client access, but that should not be the only security measure for the wireless network, since the bridges still have to communicate over the air.

[mikellanes]

I got 2 FA120's hooked up to a WRT54G running hypetwrt firmware in bridged mode, this rocks and I am pulling 2000-2500K all the way across the house.

I think this may be an easy way for some to hookup to wirelss g since you can score some on ebay very cheap ($40?) and update them with firmware or you may have an extra laying around, plus you have 4 ports (or more with a switch) as opposed to a gaming adapter, but I am sure there are ways around that too.

BTW: I am using 2 series 2 DirecTiVo's

[oldgramma]

I am not a computer literate person can anyone explain and give directions so I can network my tivo to my computer wireless the least expensive and easiest for an old lady to do I have a HUMAX 40 hr w/dvd

[oldgramma]

Can u explain in plain english the easiest and cheapest way to network a tivo to computer I have a humax 40 w/dvd and cable box thank you any help greatly appreciated.

[cdeckert219]

I am not a computer literate person can anyone explain and give directions so I can network my tivo to my computer wireless the least expensive and easiest for an old lady to do I have a HUMAX 40 hr w/dvd

I just got a Humax 40 for Christmas and here was my solution. I tried a couple wireless solutions before reading the threads here (failed, of course!). Went the simple route and ordered a TiVo Wireless G. It showed up a week later, plugged it in and had it connected in about 2 minutes. That's assuming you already have wireless network in the house...

I have a Belkin "Pre-N" router configured with WEP and MAC control. Hope that helps!

[captm0rgan77]

Ok. I'm new to all this. I got my TiVo six months ago and last week my friend tells me about all this stuff. I've read pretty much all the postings on this forum and have a pretty good understanding of what is going on with the routers and wireless stuff. What I need help with is the software. Do you have to download software on your PC so it can recognize your TIVO and do you have to do something to your TIVO so it will do the same?
I have a Series 2 and software v6.1.

[B]Please help!!!!

[c3]

v6.1 is DirecTiVo, which I don't think is networkable without hacking.

[emwoods]

Ok. I'm new to all this. I got my TiVo six months ago and last week my friend tells me about all this stuff. I've read pretty much all the postings on this forum and have a pretty good understanding of what is going on with the routers and wireless stuff. What I need help with is the software. Do you have to download software on your PC so it can recognize your TIVO and do you have to do something to your TIVO so it will do the same?
I have a Series 2 and software v6.1.

[B]Please help!!!!

Tivo Desktop. You can download from the Tivo site. Once it is installed and running your computer will show up another Tivo in your Now Playing list and you transfer video to your Tivo. From the Tivo Desktop interface you can download from your Tivo to your computer.

[c3]

Tivo Desktop.

not for DirecTiVo

[captm0rgan77]

Well that sucks. Even if I get v7.1? I was looking at the TIVO brand wireless adapters. That won't work either?

[SnakeEyes]

Hmm, I'm still bit a unsure of everything. Would like to get my brother's new TiVo S2 on the network. I also want WPA encryption. What's the cheapest solution for me. My Linksys router is wireless B so if I can save cash I don't need G compatible hardware. I'd prefer sticking with Linksys since everything else on the network is, but it's not necessary if i can save some cash ;)

[austin61]

I have a Series 2 and software v6.1.

[B]Please help!!!!If you have version 6.1 you have an R10. To network that you need to replace the prom on the motherboard and then you can do some hacking to get it to network. If you had an older model Directivo that has version 6.2 on it it wouldn't be necessary to replace the prom.

Check the underground forum for more info.

[blips]

I started the ball rolling on the use of Belkin routers some months ago. I noticed at the time that the Belkin F5D7230-4 and F5F7231-4 routers support WDS (Wireless Distribution System), *PLUS*, they could be had cheap, often $10-20 AR (after rebate), or even FAR (free after rebate). Even picked up a router from Home Depot recently for $25 (price matched to Buy.com), w/ $40 rebate, so I made $15!

The reason this situation is so compelling for use w/ Tivo is a) the routers support WDS, so they can be bridged, b) they're dirt cheap (compared to a dedicated wireless bridge or game adapter, easily $80 or more), and c), support for "G" protocol.

So the basis of discussion in this forum has been to aquire these Belkin routers, configure them as APs (Access Point), and enable bridging. Thus, each Tivo can have its own dedicated AP. All it takes is adding a USB 2.0 ethernet adapter (e.g., D-Link DUB-E100), then patching it to the AP. Because all the wireless configuration lies outside the Tivo, it removes any limitations or restrictions on wireless imposed by Tivo (e.g., "b" only). You just want to make sure you use USB 2.0 ethernet adapters (as opposed to USB 1.1) to get the most bandwidth of the "G" protocol as possible.

There are several configurations possible. Some people use one of the Belkin routers *as* a router, the other routers are reconfigured as AP w/ bridging enabled on all devices. The WDS support makes this possible, something not typically found on competitive brands at this same price level.

In my case, I find the Belkin router, as a router, to be quite limited, doesn't provide all the features I'm come to expect w/ an advanced router, such as that found on my D-Link DI-624. Therefore, I've kept my DI-624 but disabled the wireless, then patched one of the Belkin routers in AP mode (and of course, bridging enabled) to the DI-624 w/ a simple ethernet patch cable. All other Belkin routers are also configured as APs w/ bridging enabled, but all these are patched to my Tivos. Of course, you can do the same thing w/ other network devices, like the family room PC, mom's laptop, whatever you like. IOW, I maintain the advantages of my DI-624 router (which doesn't support WDS, so it's not bridgeable), while gaining the advantages of the Belkin router's wireless WDS.

However you configure it, the "big deal" in this forum regarding the Belkin routers is that they support WDS, can therefore be bridged w/ other Belkin "G" routers (and of course, dedicated Belkin APs), and for a fraction of the cost of buying dedicated APs, game adapters, etc. We're not doing anything here in this forum wrt these Belkin routers that you couldn't accomplish w/ other brand routers, BUT, you would be forced to buy expense, dedicated APs/bridges for this purpose.

In my case, I've managed to aquire four (4) Belkin F5D7230-4 routers for a maybe $20 or so (after all rebates). No way, no how, can you build an equivalent distributed wireless system w/ the "G" protocol this cheaply EXCEPT w/ the Belkin line. As far as the SVEASOFT, some people are using this primarily to make the mediocre Belkin router, a better router. Since WDS is already supported, it doesn't have much more relevance to this discussion. In the case of Linksys, I believe SVEASOFT has *added* WDS support (don't hold me to that, I don't follow SVEASOFT advancements all that closely). In that case, it would obviously benefit the Linksys crowd, it would make Linksys capable of achieving the same thing, although you still can't beat the Belkin on pricing. Just beware that WDS, even when supported, is typically NOT interoperable across brands.

I hope that clears up a few things, it's not really as complex once you see it in action, it's a lot harder to explain than actually execute. It's just that not everyone is aware of the WDS/bridging capability built into the Belkin routers, so people usually don't recognize how easy and cheaply they can dramatically improve their wireless network, and in this case, Tivo specifically.

HTH

eibgrad

Seeing as this post is from April 2005 I thought I would add something. I didn't read the whole thread so I'm sorry if this has been mentioned:

The Belkin F5D7230-4 version 4000 or version 5000 no longer supports and/or has WDS. Meaning you cannot use it as a bridge. I bought the F5D7230-4 v5000 the other day trying to create a wireless bridge. I could not get it to work. I called Belkin and they told me to buy the F5D7231-4. I had to return the two F5D7230-4 that I bought from Circuit City and buy two F5D7231-4. So if you looking for a router that supports WDS don't buy the F5D7230-4 unless you can find an old version. The F5D7231-4 does the trick and is very easy to set up, but does cost more. Just an FYI.

[Grimm1]

Seeing as this post is from April 2005 I thought I would add something. I didn't read the whole thread so I'm sorry if this has been mentioned:

The Belkin F5D7230-4 version 4000 or version 5000 no longer supports and/or has WDS. Meaning you cannot use it as a bridge. I bought the F5D7230-4 v5000 the other day trying to create a wireless bridge. I could not get it to work. I called Belkin and they told me to buy the F5D7231-4. I had to return the two F5D7230-4 that I bought from Circuit City and buy two F5D7231-4. So if you looking for a router that supports WDS don't buy the F5D7230-4 unless you can find an old version. The F5D7231-4 does the trick and is very easy to set up, but does cost more. Just an FYI.I think you can also use the F5D7130 which is supposed to be the same as the F5D7230-4 except that it does not have the router capabilities or 4 ports. But for many people like myself those were not going to be used in this setup anyways. I think they are cheaper then the F5D7231-4 too. When I went to buy the F5D7130 at Fry's I noticed they still had some old versions of the F5D7230-4 and they were on sale for $30 so I ended up getting those instead.

[ebetzler]

I have read through alot of this stuff, but my brain is more scrambled now than when I started.
So to summarize....
Will this setup work?

WRT54G
||
|| (hard-wired)
||
F5D7230-4

>>>>>>>>wirelessG<<<<<<<<<<

F5D7230-4
||
|| (hard-wired)
||
DLINK DUB E-100
||
|| (USB2.0)
||
TIVO

(repeat bottom part for any additional TIVOs)

And the 7230's all have to be v3000 or earlier?
Any alternatives? Since all the belkin's I am finding are v4000

[blips]

Any alternatives?

Sure, read this post (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3714958&&#post3714958) (it's the one two posts above yours) ;)

[ebetzler]

Will this option work in place of a Belkin 7230 ?

Linksys WRT54GC

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7061724&productCategoryId=pcmcat7000050002&type=product&tab=1&id=1108125259730

It costs $60, but for a 2-TIVO house you would need to buy 2 = $120
versus 3 Belkins @ ~40 = $120
Assuming you already have a router in place with your cable modem.

[blips]

Why don't you just use the Belkin F5D7231-4? It supports WDS. (please note this is not the F5D7230-4)

[ebetzler]

Where is the best deal on one?
The ones i've seen are 50$, and I would have to buy a minimum of 2
(1 to connect to my WRT54G, and one for my TIVO)
Thats 100$ versus buying 1 linksys WAP for 60$

[EDIT]
I got a sweet deal at CompUSA this week, NetGear WGE111 for 29.99 after rebates.
So I picked up 2 of them, and after some painful setup (painful because the documentation didn't help much and I had to figure out on my own) I have everything running, and MRV works sweet!

Here is my setup:
LivingRoom DTivo --(USB2.0)-- DLink DubE100--(Ethernet)--NetGear WGE111
<<<< Wireless G >>>>>
Linksys WRT54G
<<<< Wireless G >>>>>
BedRoom DTivo --(USB2.0)-- DLink DubE100--(Ethernet)--NetGear WGE111

A hodgepodge of hardware :), but everything works! :D

[uscpsycho]

I have an HR10-250. I zippered it and attached Netgear FA120 USB adapter. I can attach a crossover cable from the USB adapter to my laptop and ping the TiVo with no problem. But I'd like to use a bridge to get wireless connectivity.

I am using a DLINK DWL-G810 bridge and DLINK DI-784 router. At the end of the day, this is probably irrelevant, but maybe someone knows something I don't know about this equipment.

I am using MAC address filtering and have WEP enabled and my SSID is not broadcast. SSID & IP range are not default.

The bridge seems to be working just fine when connected to my laptop. If I turn the wireless radio off on my laptop I can access the Internet and have full network capability through th bridge. I can also ping my laptop from another computer on my network (key).

Now, without making any changes I disconnect the laptop and connect the TiVo. There is no connection. I can't ping the TiVo. When zippering I gave the TiVo and IP address in the correct domain range.

The only thing I can think of is that zipper doesn't ask you for the subnet mask. My network uses 255.255.255.0. I imagine if the TiVo uses something else that could be the source of my problem. Anyone know what the default is and how it can be changed?

Anyone have an idea why I can ping my laptop when it is connected to the bridge, but I can't ping the TiVo?

I consider myself rather network savvy, so I am frustrated!

[juanian]

. . . Heck, they were even selling them at Home Depot, of all places . . . So here I was, trying to find those elusive, older Belkin routers. I was driving by a Home Depot, and I figured I'd peek in just to see. They had three older 7320's (at $40 each). I didn't know the version (since there was no label on the box next to the word Version), but since they were the two-antenna style, I knew they should work. To my surprise, they are version 1444! Now, I think I saw that someone said that they were bridgeable (but I've not gotten the first one I tried to bridge with the v2000 and v3000 that I am currently using successfully -- still plugging away at it).

Thanks for the suggestion eibgrad :up: :up: :up: -- I had feared I'd have to go to a much costlier route since I hadn't been able to find the older Belkins.

The really odd thing -- this Home Depot is brand new (has been open for about 4 months)! What "stockpile" did these v1444's come from???

EDIT: I figured out what my problem was -- the 1444 won't bridge in WPA mode with the 2000 (although the 2000 will bridge with the 3000 in WPA mode).

[Stormspace]

I moved into a new house this past year and wanted to share some of my experience setting up my wireless network...

First of all this house is pre 1950 and though it has been thoroughly renovated and modernized, the walls are the original ones put in during the 1920's or 30's. So, instead of sheet rock walls I have plaster walls. In my area it was common practice to lay up chicken wire or some other type of wire and apply plaster to this surface when making walls. So, it doesn't make for a very friendly wireless environment.

My network started with all the devices from my previous home. A BEFW11S4 router with high gain antennas and misc 802.11b clients. Our designated computer room just happened to be in a renovated section added on in recent years with sheet rock walls, so this set up allowed for coverage in all but two rooms with spotty coverage in one room.

Thinking I could add an expander, I purchased a WRE54G linksys wireless G expander. I placed it in the kitchen above the microwave inside the cabinet. However I couldn't get it to work with my router. A call to linksys confirmed that they had designed the device to only work with the latest routers, so I purchased a WRT54G router, retired the former router and set up the expander. That set up solved the problems for every room but one, my sons. I could get a signal, but it was intermittent and didn't change if I swapped out ap clients. Also the connection was so slow that it really wasn't worth it and I found him on my computer more times than not. He had basically stopped using his.

Moving the expander didn't solve things, so I purchased a pair of homeplug adapters (GHPB31). These were connected at his PC and at the router. I appeared to be getting about 1mb out of them, but again the performance was bad, really bad and after a few weeks of trying to get it to work I decided to configure my wireless B router in another room as an access point using the homeplug adapters to make the wired connection.

At this point I had read that houses built before 1950 might have issues with homeplug, so I thought moving the devices closer to each other might solve the problem. It did actually, but the b router for soem reason would just die if alot of data was requested from it. Like playing an MP3 from a server on the network on my sons PC.

As a last resort I purchased a WAP54G and configured it as a repeater, but some how since I already had the expander on the network it wouldn't function. As a last resort I configured it as an AP Client and hooked it directly to my son's PC. That worked flawlessly as I guess the WAP54G (Which is less expensive than a real client) has better range and sensitivity due to the two antenna. As a test I hooked in to the wireless B router and chained my sons PC off the router, which now was functioning as a wireless B access point and switch. This last gives him wireless converage for all of his other devices, like his Nintendo DS and possibly his xbox later on.

Anyway, it was a long process but his throughput now is on par with the rest of the wired network and he's happy. Next time I'll go straight for the WAP54G AP's and not spend the money on an expander if I need to move off in one direction.

My Wireless equipment
1 WAP54G
1 WRE54G
1 Silver Orinoco 802.11b AP Client
1 Linksys 802.11b game adapter
2 Linksys 802.11b USB clients
1 Blitzz 802.11b USB client
1 Linksys PCI 802.11b client
1 Blitzz PCMCIA 802.11b adapter

2 GHPB31 homeplug adapters(retired)
1 Netgear 802.11b usb client(retired)

[smark]

Has anyone had any success with connecting a WRT54G wirelessly bridging to the Belkin F5D7230-4 or even the F5D7230-4 wirelessly bridging to the WRT54G? I've been struggling with this.

[bghmsh]

I wired the suckers in {- Mich faster Except for my Tivo II (250GB) out at the Jacuzzi which has a Wireless G connection

[eibgrad]

Has anyone had any success with connecting a WRT54G wirelessly bridging to the Belkin F5D7230-4 or even the F5D7230-4 wirelessly bridging to the WRT54G? I've been struggling with this.

Gee, I thought this thread was long dead. Guess I might as well answer smark, even if it's been well over a year!

You will continue to have troubles (although by now I hope you've given up :) ) because Belkin uses a "proprietary" protocol for wireless bridging to other Belkin routers. It's simply not possible to include the WRT54G. Heck, Belkin doesn't even support it across all their own routers, let alone other vendors, only the F5D7230-4 (54g) and F5D7231-4 (108g) may participate. And according to reports, is not supported anymore by Belkin even w/ newer revisions of these models, apparently dumped completely by Belkin a couple years ago.

That's why I've hung onto the 5-6 Belkin routers I gathered way back when. Use 'em all the time to connect almost everything (VOIP adapter, TiVo, PCs). Still continues to work great. Wish I could find more.

[ellinj]

just wanted to mention I have been using netgear powerline adapters instead of my wds setup for a month or two now. it works like a dream. much more reliable then WDS and I am getting similar speeds.

[eibgrad]

just wanted to mention I have been using netgear powerline adapters instead of my wds setup for a month or two now. it works like a dream. much more reliable then WDS and I am getting similar speeds.

Interesting. Powerline products have traditionally been very problematic. They've suffered from several nagging problems, like not being usable w/ a UPS or line conditioner (not uncommon w/ HTPC), can't cross circuits (most ppl have several), and overall poor performance (1mbps or less).

It seems manufacturers are always trying to revamp their products and solve these problems, so I'm not sure what the state of this technology is today. But if you find this working for you, that's great news. If you have any details, such as specific products, your config (using a UPS?), etc., that would be interesting to know.

[ellinj]

Interesting. Powerline products have traditionally been very problematic. They've suffered from several nagging problems, like not being usable w/ a UPS or line conditioner (not uncommon w/ HTPC), can't cross circuits (most ppl have several), and overall poor performance (1mbps or less).

It seems manufacturers are always trying to revamp their products and solve these problems, so I'm not sure what the state of this technology is today. But if you find this working for you, that's great news. If you have any details, such as specific products, your config (using a UPS?), etc., that would be interesting to know.

I am getting about 30Mbps using the Netgear products. They are plugged directly into the wall not through a power strip, which isn't really an issue since you can still plug your equipment into a ups or power strip. the ones I am using have a built in switch so cabling is ultra simple. It definitely seems the latest gen of these products have come a long way.

[ashu]

Rebenchmarked my two-floors-separated Belkin 7230-4s - connected to two WinXp PCs, both directions benched between 19-22 MbPS. I'm happy. And have that spare Belkin in the drawer for when (if?) one of these fail.

Powerline Ethernet sounds interesting, but the investment isn't worth it to me with a working, stable 20+ MbPS (Medium & High at RealTime) setup. Going on what - almost 2 years, now? Maybe when I buy a second HDTV and the inevitable second HiDef TiVo to accompany my S3 ;)

[hitech_rednek]

I bought two of the Belkin 7230-4's quite a while ago when the price was right (maybe $12 after rebate) but hadn't gotten around to using them. This week I did, but not for TiVo (yet). I needed to get my son's PC upstairs on the network without a wire running up the stairs - *he* didn't see a problem with that but I didn't like it. So I set one up as an AP (chained off my LinkSys router) and the other as a client. Seems to work well.

Unfortunately the TiVo I'd like to wire to this is at the other end of the second story. I can probably run a cable under the carpet or up through the attic. Or get another Belkin, but it sounds like these are hard to find now. Or, buy the TiVo 11g adapter....

I wanted to voice my thanks for those who pointed out this capability - it does come in handy.

[ashu]

Yay! You're living up to that username ;)

I have a new N router, for my new Lenovo laptop, and the staggering speeds (60mbps sustained 2-3 floors up) have me intrigued ... how long until a non-compliant-802.11N router with WDS capability comes up on clearance sale? Tempting thought! The MIMO would make it way better than the Belkin setup - although I doubt it'd be more stable (going on 2-3 months without reboots on average, 6-7 total devices connected to 3 'remote' Belkins - yes I pulled in the 'spare' too)