Ultimate Wireless Network

[truqui]

I just purchased one of these last night at a local Brandsmart USA for $38.88
Does Belkin have a rebate going?

Question which wirless adapter would you guys recommend for this router?

TIA

[eibgrad]

I just purchased one of these last night at a local Brandsmart USA for $38.88
Does Belkin have a rebate going?

Question which wirless adapter would you guys recommend for this router?

TIA

Then you grossly overpaid, heck, Buy.com sells it w/ FREE SHIPPING and no taxes for most states, $25 straight up. CC (Circuit City) has it for $10 (after rebate, 2 x $30), and last time I checked, so did BB (Best Buy). PCConnection (online) also has had it for $10 after rebate not too long ago. This router is sold over and over and over again for <$20. There's just no good reason to be paying $38.88 for this product, too many other options. Even if you didn't send in the Belkin rebate from Home Depot, you'd do better w/ at least the pricematch. Unfortunately most of the Belkin rebates are tied to specific retailers, including the one from Home Depot.

eibgrad

[truqui]

I guess I did...I can always take it back, it's still in the unopened box...
Geez, the Belkin website sells it for $80+ I thought I got a good deal.

What about the adapter recommendation? Anyone care to recommend which would work best with this router?

[ashu]

Another identical router makes the best (and one of the cheapest) adapters ;)

You need ethernet on the device, though - so for TiVos you'd also need, say, a Linksys USB200M

[truqui]

Another identical router makes the best (and one of the cheapest) adapters ;)

You need ethernet on the device, though - so for TiVos you'd also need, say, a Linksys USB200M

Sorry ashu...I'm really more than a newb at networking!
What do you mean?
Why would I need a wired router as well?

[ashu]

Sorry ashu...I'm really more than a newb at networking!
What do you mean?
Why would I need a wired router as well?

This thread is all about leveraging some of these routers' ability to bridge networks. So two routers would form a nice bridge, with the bonus of having a free 4-port hub/switch at each end. So 4 devices would be supported.

At 25-ish for a USB 2.0 ethernet adapter for your TiVo, plus 10 or less after rebate for a wireless router, in addition to the first router you bought already - you'd have a 4-port wireless extension where the second router sits. (and a third and fourth, optionally! Each of which could connect to a hub/switch for a total max of almost 256 devices!)

[jedware]

Has anyone used Windows XP built-in bridge functionality successfully?

I ask this question because I have three tivos together in my basement next to a old computer that is connected wirelessly and would like to bridge my wireless network to my three tivos that are connected to a switch.

[ChofuHS]

Really nice! I had wireless for a year with Comcast Cable. Nothing but problems. After multiple service calls, I ripped out all the hardware, switched to Liknkys and now, all is well! Now, I would like to get the printers hooked up to the same. Thanks for the info.

[eibgrad]

Has anyone used Windows XP built-in bridge functionality successfully?

I ask this question because I have three tivos together in my basement next to a old computer that is connected wirelessly and would like to bridge my wireless network to my three tivos that are connected to a switch.

Is your PC also connected to that same switch via a wired adapter?! If so, then I understand your need for a "software" bridge, iow, bridge the wireless and wired adapters on that PC. This would allow the Tivo's to communicate over the wireless network, using your PC as a conduit, and presumably, access the Internet (I'm assuming your PC over wireless is connected to a wireless router connected to the Internet, while the wired Tivo's are not, if I'm wrong, you need to be more specific in describing your config).

I see no reason it wouldn't work, the bridge will allow TCP/IP packets to be transferred between the two physical networks. Of course, a wireless access point would achieve the same thing without involving a PC.

Is there a specific problem you're having?

eibgrad

[hoopsnut]

has anyone done this yet? Just moved and at my old place I had a wired connection to my TiVo with USB200 as well as a wrt54g wireless router for my laptop access.

Now that we've moved, i want to "un-wire" my tivo and am wondering if i should buy a linksys gaming adapter or another wrt54g router (already have the USB adapter from before).
I actually have a PS2 i'd love to hook up as well and that makes me lean toward the router, but I haven't seen anyone who has done it yet. Connectivity for my PS2 would not be a requirement but a nice option.

I am also not clear on how I would switch the remote (2nd) router to become a bridge/receiver nor if I would be able to hook up both PS2 and Tivo to the back of said remote router successfully.

As a relative newbie, I'm hoping I am describing my scenario sufficiently.

BTW, I'd like to say how impressed I am with the knowlegde and helpfulness (is that a word?) of this board and this thread in particular.

[ashu]

hoopsnut (Hope you weren't rooting for the Illinii!) - search this thread for "Sveasoft"

As far as I can tell, you need that (Sveasoft) firmware (instead of the stock Linksys firmware) on your router/s for bridging to function. And your scenarios should work well (those posts that detail the procedure are quite detailed!)

These messages here seems promising ... http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2284049&&#post2284049
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2291902&&#post2291902

Good luck.

[hoopsnut]

Thanks for your response and suggestions. one of the things I noticed was that the only mention of connecting 2 routers involved alternate firmware etc (and, of course, some addtl money)

as a relative idiot, I'm not too jazzed to have to screw with firmware and scripting. Is it much simpler to just buy the gaming adapter and live without the chances for 3 other devices

[hoopsnut]

...might be to see if people have had any good experiences connecting easily 'bridge'-moded routers of other brands to a linksys wrt54g?

[ashu]

Belkin F5D7230-4. Thats what eibgrad and I have. Cheap WDS-capable routers. I have 3.

Always 10-20 after rebate (rarely, but non-zero-times, even less!) And if you hate rebates, buy.com (link late last week ...) has 'em for 25 each, free shipping.

[hoopsnut]

and any known probs communicating with linksys routers?

[ashu]

and any known probs communicating with linksys routers?

WDS (bridging) is not a standard yet. While some people report routers/bridges from diff. manufacturers working with each other occasionally due to identical chipsets and OEMs, the Belkin in qeustion will ONLY bridge with another identical Belkin (or a 7231-4 - worthless extra expense).

Buy two Belkins, and use one in WDS-only, the other in router/WDS mode. Or use both in WDS mode, with the superior (user interface/features/security config) Linksys doing routing/switching.

buy.com has it for 24.99, and coupons for 5/25 and 10/75 (buy 3 routers for 65!) are available! (google)

[jedware]

Is your PC also connected to that same switch via a wired adapter?! If so, then I understand your need for a "software" bridge, iow, bridge the wireless and wired adapters on that PC. This would allow the Tivo's to communicate over the wireless network, using your PC as a conduit, and presumably, access the Internet (I'm assuming your PC over wireless is connected to a wireless router connected to the Internet, while the wired Tivo's are not, if I'm wrong, you need to be more specific in describing your config).

I see no reason it wouldn't work, the bridge will allow TCP/IP packets to be transferred between the two physical networks. Of course, a wireless access point would achieve the same thing without involving a PC.

Is there a specific problem you're having?

eibgrad

Here is my setup:

Upstairs: ActionTec 1524 DSL Modem with Wireless
Two Computer connected via CAT5 cable

Downstairs: Computer connected with USB wireless Antenna to DSL Modem
3 Tivos connected with USB200M and CAT5 to Switch/Hub

I am trying to get all my tivos on my network and internet. I tried several different configs on the downstairs computer but could not get it to work. If you could tell me what I am doing wrong that would be great. Otherwise what wireless bridge would work with my existing hardware?

[wombat2010]

I have read this (long, very informative) thread, but I am still hitting a snag hooking up my TiVo to a switch behind my wireless gaming adapter (D-Link G820). The TiVo can connect to my network (and get updates, music, TiVo to Go) if connected directly to the G820, but when connected to the switch (which is to allow me to connect my XBox to the same G820), it can only get updates and music, but not TiVo to Go.

At first, I realized the TiVo was getting an IP address in the 192.168.1.x range, and the rest of my network is in the 192.168.0.x range. My theory was that the switch (Linksys BEFSR41) was giving it its IP address, because Linksys is in the 192.168.1.x range by default. I changed the switch's IP address to the 192.168.0.x range, but then the TiVo started having trouble obtaining an IP address. I began getting DHCP error messages, and the TiVo said it was getting an IP address "from the server." These IP addressses were always in the 169.x.x.x range, making me think it was getting an IP address from my ISP (Comcast). Such IP addresses, of course, do not work on my home network.

I have toggled DHCP on and off on the switch, and made sure the wireless router (D-Link DI-624) is set to DHCP (I even set a static-DHCP address for the TiVo using its MAC address), but the TiVo keeps getting 169.x.x.x IP addresses. Is there a setting on the wireless router, the switch, or the G820 wireless gaming adapter that needs to be changed? I'm thinking it has something to do with the latter (the G820), because the TiVo can get an IP address from the wireless router w/o a problem if connected directly to the G820, but not when connected to it behind the switch. But I really do not know at this point.

Any suggestions/help would be much appreciated. My wife is going to have me committed if I do not stop obsessing over this soon. :o

[CrispyCritter]

At first, I realized the TiVo was getting an IP address in the 192.168.1.x range, and the rest of my network is in the 192.168.0.x range. My theory was that the switch (Linksys BEFSR41) was giving it its IP address, because Linksys is in the 192.168.1.x range by default. I changed the switch's IP address to the 192.168.0.x range, but then the TiVo started having trouble obtaining an IP address. I began getting DHCP error messages, and the TiVo said it was getting an IP address "from the server." These IP addressses were always in the 169.x.x.x range, making me think it was getting an IP address from my ISP (Comcast). Such IP addresses, of course, do not work on my home network.I don't know your hardware, so can't give you a solution, but here's a couple of things to advance you:

1. The 169.254.x.x address is the default address when the adapter can't find any DHCP server on its local subnet. The adapter doesn't search any further than its local subnet.

2. Routers are designed to communicate between two different subnets, but they don't join the subnets. Part (perhaps most) of your problem is the Linksys is functioning as a router and not a switch (a switch would join the connected parts into one subnet.) The Linksys thinks there are two different subnets on either side of it. Thus, for example, DHCP requests from yout TiVo adapter are not reaching the other side of the Linksys. You'll have to check the documentation to see if your Linksys can even be set to be just a switch (I don't know).

[wombat2010]

That makes sense! Thank you for explaining that to me, CrispyCritter. I was wondering if I was using too much equipment, so to speak, by using a router instead of a plain old switch. (The router can only be set to Router or Gateway mode, neither of which seemed to work.)

I did not know that 169.x.x.x was a TiVo default. Here I was thinking it was somehow bypassing my wireless router and going and getting an IP address from Comcast--I mean, why would I think of a simple explanation when I can come up with a complicated, outlandish one?

So I think I will try to pick up a simple (and probably very cheap) switch and see if that does the trick. I find networking stuff somewhat interesting, but very confusing. I have real respect for those who actually understand it.

Thanks again.

[ashu]

It SHOULD function as just a switch - use only the 4 downlink ports! Don't connect your WG810/820 (or whatever bridge you have) to the Uplink/WAN port!

[wombat2010]

Connect the G820 to one of the four downlink ports? Okay . . . trying to understand (with my feeble understanding of networking) how and why that works. If the wireless bridge (G820) is connected to a downlink port of the wired router, how does the TiVo (through a wired router) 1) connect to my wireless network or even 2) connect to the internet at all? I guess I thought the downlink ports on a router were OUT only and that the WAN port was IN (kind of like video in and video out on a television or a TiVo), and that the only way for the wireless bridge to pass around the connection from the wireless router was to be connected to the wired router's WAN port.

If you can explain how/why this works, I would be interested. But if you cannot or don't have time to try to dumb it down so that I can understand, I will be quite happy with it simply working, even though I don't understand it! Thank you, Ashu! I'll give it a shot tonight and post whether that solves it.

[ashu]

(Network tech terms may be seriously butchered here, folks so help clean it up; here's my understanding...) A router (consumer grade) is a 4 (or more) port switch With Features (like a WAN port and internal local network management, NATing, routing etc). Since you don't want to use any of those (in fact, they'd be detrimental!) - you have to use only the 4 'switch' ports (Downlink is the layman's or simplistic term to explain that 'devices' connect there, and your cable/DSL modem connects to the 'uplink'.

Some people have multiple routers on a network (heck, the internet had gazillions of routers, separate subnets, and NAT-capable (Network Address Translation) devices making it work. But in your case, without other kluges (tunneling etc), you can't keep your PCs connected to the 'main' router and devices connected to the 'secondary' router on the same subnet, and comfortably seeing each other the way TiVo's and TiVo apps desire.

If you wanted to separate, say, your kids' PCs and set up separate firewall and web blocking features on their subnet, then a 2nd router would be useful ;)

<edit> Some topics here should help ...
http://www.homenethelp.com/web/explain/index.asp
Read the hubs/switches, s well as the NAT Basics and Broadband Routers topics.

And simplistically put ...
http://www.netbook.cs.purdue.edu/othrpags/qanda249.htm

[Stormspace]

(Network tech terms may be seriously butchered here, folks so help clean it up; here's my understanding...) A router (consumer grade) is a 4 (or more) port switch With Features (like a WAN port and internal local network management, NATing, routing etc). Since you don't want to use any of those (in fact, they'd be detrimental!) - you have to use only the 4 'switch' ports (Downlink is the layman's or simplistic term to explain that 'devices' connect there, and your cable/DSL modem connects to the 'uplink'.

Some people have multiple routers on a network (heck, the internet had gazillions of routers, separate subnets, and NAT-capable (Network Address Translation) devices making it work. But in your case, without other kluges (tunneling etc), you can't keep your PCs connected to the 'main' router and devices connected to the 'secondary' router on the same subnet, and comfortably seeing each other the way TiVo's and TiVo apps desire.

If you wanted to separate, say, your kids' PCs and set up separate firewall and web blocking features on their subnet, then a 2nd router would be useful ;)

<edit> Some topics here should help ...
http://www.homenethelp.com/web/explain/index.asp
Read the hubs/switches, s well as the NAT Basics and Broadband Routers topics.

And simplistically put ...
http://www.netbook.cs.purdue.edu/othrpags/qanda249.htm


One other thing to note is that it's generally not good to operate more than one DHCP server on a LAN. So if you do use more than 1 router, disabling DHCP on the internal router(The one NOT connected directly the internet) is advised.

[wombat2010]

Thank you, both. I am slowly starting to get straightened out, and as I said, I will give things a try tonight. I hope others will benefit from seeing how my situation is resolved (though maybe others knew to plug the bridge into a switch port, not a WAN port).

Also, Stormpace, thanks for the comment about DHCP. I had been thinking that myself, wondering if conflicting IP addresses could end up being given out (how would the routers know what the other was doing?). My only workaround (besides the correct answer, which is to disable DHCP on the router not connected to my cable modem) was to specify IP addresses by MAC address (while leaving DHCP on, which you can do on my wireless router) on the router connected to the modem, and then restrict the range of IP addresses that could be assigned on the other--in other words, set addresses by MAC from 100-109, and tell the other only to hand out addresses beginning at 110 and above. Not a very good solution, and obviously not necessary if I simply disable DHCP on that router.

[rog]

Stick to only one DHCP server per network, and you'll save yourself a lot of trouble.

I manage a 150 node, 3 building network at work. Last week, people started calling the help desk, wondering why they couldn't access email, the Internet, mapped network drives, etc. As we started looking at the PC's, we realized they had incorrect IP addresses.

Long story short: someone had installed a wireless access point/router in one of the remote buildings. They weren't authorized to do so, and hadn't spoken with anyone in IT. They had no idea what they were doing, and left the router with the factory default settings, which meant the DHCP server was on.

PC's requesting an IP address were getting alternating responses from the real DHCP server and the rogue DHCP server. So some clients would get a correct IP, while others would get an IP for a different (incorrect) subnet.

It took some sleuthing to track down the router!

[wombat2010]

Well, I plugged the G820 (wireless bridge/game adapter) into one of the downlink ports of the switch (wired router, acting as a switch now), and turned off DHCP on that router, being sure DHCP was turned on on the wireless router (DI-624), which is connected to my cable modem.

It seems to have worked, in part. The TiVo succesfully obtained an IP address, and is now able to get network updates, share music, and send recordings to my desktop via Tivo to Go ("TTG"). Recall that earlier the first two things worked, but not TTG.

However, I am now unable to go online with my XBox, which is also connected to one of the switch ports. It says it is unable to connect to a DHCP server to get an IP address. I have also tried connecting my laptop to the switch via ethernet, and it, too, is unable to get an IP address (it eventually defaults to a 169.x.x.x address and tells me it has limited/no connectivity).

I cannot figure out what could be wrong that would allow the TiVo to connect in all ways, but not my XBox or laptop. Any ideas? I can provide further details on hardware or configuration if necessary.

Thank you for guiding this ignorant home network administrator.

[CrispyCritter]

I'm not nearly as confident as others that your Linksys hardware supports what you want to do here (which is have it act as a switch but still connect to a larger network.) Switches in general require extra optional hardware on each port that can serve as an "uplink" port; one that connects to another switch or router. I have both switches and routers that only work with one designated uplink port. Unless your linksys documentation says that it can auto-detect uplinks on all ports, I would not assume it can. (The issue is the connection between the linksys and your wireless router.)

[wombat2010]

I'm not nearly as confident as others that your Linksys hardware supports what you want to do here (which is have it act as a switch but still connect to a larger network.) Switches in general require extra optional hardware on each port that can serve as an "uplink" port; one that connects to another switch or router. I have both switches and routers that only work with one designated uplink port. Unless your linksys documentation says that it can auto-detect uplinks on all ports, I would not assume it can. (The issue is the connection between the linksys and your wireless router.)

Okay, I think I follow. There is a port on my Linksys router labeled "Uplink" in addition to the four numbered ports and the WAN port (so, six ports total). Should I try plugging the wireless bridge/game adapter (G820) into THAT port? If not, or if that doesn't work, can you recommend a switch that has the capability you're talking about? I mean, sure, I wish what I currently had could do the job, but if not, I'm more than willing to spend a little money on a switch to get things working properly. That is, as long as such switches aren't so exotic that they cost as much as a dual processor Xeon server or something. :p

Thanks.

[ashu]

Umm, sure - try that.

But I can vouch for the fact that my Belkin and my D-Link routers work great as switches with the 4 'ports' being the only ones in use. They only have one other port - curiously enough, labelled WAN on one and Uplink on the other!

Welcome to the world of non-standard implementations and nomenclature :)

Oh, and maybe your XBOX issues stem from the fact that the XBOX sucks and you need a PS2 ;)

Try connecting the XBOX first - maybe your G820 can only handle passing on DHCP and then handling traffic for at most ONE device (and the TiVo occupies that slot by virtue of being the first on connected)?

[ashu]

Oh - I got my 8-port GigaFast Ethernet (10/100) Switch, for FREE after rebates. You can frequently find sub-10 deals on 4-port switches at CompUSSR, Worst Buy and Crappy City.

[wombat2010]

Try connecting the XBOX first - maybe your G820 can only handle passing on DHCP and then handling traffic for at most ONE device (and the TiVo occupies that slot by virtue of being the first on connected)?

I've done some testing and it seems you are right. Whichever device (TiVo or XBox) I tell to connect to the network first (following a power cycling of the G820) gets an IP address and connection no problem. Whichever I tell to connect second gets an error (no gateway found, etc.). It does not matter whether the bridge (G820) is plugged into one of the four numbered switch ports or the uplink port, nor does it matter whether either device is connected in a lower or higher numbered switch port (seemed dumb that it would, but I've seen dumber things work). I also played with which numbered switch port the G820 was plugged into.

So from your quote above, it sounds like you think it is a limitation of the G820, not the router/switch? :( That is dismaying, because as you pointed out, I can get a switch for next to nothing, but I paid $75 for that wireless bridge, and I don't even know that a different bridge would work any better. Any chance it's the switch? I guess it won't cost me much to try it and find out (well, except for the cost of time, but sheesh, I've gone well past the point of no return now, anyway--this is becoming more about the journey than the destination).

Thanks again.

[Stormspace]

I've done some testing and it seems you are right. Whichever device (TiVo or XBox) I tell to connect to the network first (following a power cycling of the G820) gets an IP address and connection no problem. Whichever I tell to connect second gets an error (no gateway found, etc.). It does not matter whether the bridge (G820) is plugged into one of the four numbered switch ports or the uplink port, nor does it matter whether either device is connected in a lower or higher numbered switch port (seemed dumb that it would, but I've seen dumber things work). I also played with which numbered switch port the G820 was plugged into.

So from your quote above, it sounds like you think it is a limitation of the G820, not the router/switch? :( That is dismaying, because as you pointed out, I can get a switch for next to nothing, but I paid $75 for that wireless bridge, and I don't even know that a different bridge would work any better. Any chance it's the switch? I guess it won't cost me much to try it and find out (well, except for the cost of time, but sheesh, I've gone well past the point of no return now, anyway--this is becoming more about the journey than the destination).

Thanks again.

I'm not 100% sure about your situation, but bridges in some configurations require a bridge at both ends.

[ashu]

Wombat - glancing at the G820 manual ...
1. try turning off Super G mode in all forms (Advanced Tab, Performance menu) - my Belkins work better when all fancy-schamncy hi-speed and turbo modes are OFF.
2. This device needs the Gateway and DNS to be your router's IP (set these on the TiVo and the XBOX)
3. If possible, try to connect TWO devices via the bridge, with your Linksys used as a switch in VERY close proximity to the main router (your PC and XBOX should be easy to manage). Both wired. This will ensure interference at the distance/range you're using it at normally, isn't the culprit.

Finally, not what you want to hear - this is a "Gaming adapter". Fancy packging and more limited firmware. IMHO you would have been better with the (less intentionally crippled, as I've discovered gaming adapters to be!) G810 instead. Can you exchange this at the point of purchase?

[wombat2010]

Ashu,

1. I have disabled Super-G on all devices (which for all I have read seems like little more than marketing hooey and a cause of more headaches than solutions).

2. I will try inputting those settings. I didn't realize the DNS could be the router's IP address--thought it was something that had to be obtained from one's ISP, and I frankly ignored it b/c I didn't understand it. Query, though, whether the XBox or TiVo would be able to connect when plugged in alone, but not when plugged in with the other, based on this information not being entered? Nevertheless worth trying.

3. I will try that, too, although getting them any closer will be difficult with my desktop upstairs from the other components. Maybe I'll scrounge around for some long CAT5.

As far as the distinction between the gaming adapter (G820) and wireless bridge (G810), I did not realize that manufacturers supply crippleware with the former. I actually settled on the G820 after some debate, largely because comments I read in different places seemed to suggest the G810 had buggy firmware. Of course, the reality is probably that more people had had more time to complain about the G810 because it has been out longer. Very annoying that the gaming adapters are artificially limited in their firmware. Don't think I can return it, though--Newegg is good with returns, but I've had it for months. ;-)

We'll see what happens tonight. What do you think about the possibility, as raised by CrispyCritter, that the problem really is with my router? Perhaps a switch that can auto-detect uplinks an all ports (rather than just on one, designated port, as is the case with my Linksys) would solve my problems. Danke once again.

[rog]

2. This device needs the Gateway and DNS to be your router's IP (set these on the TiVo and the XBOX).

:confused: The gateway should be the router's IP, correct. But the DNS? That doesn't make any sense.

2. I will try inputting those settings. I didn't realize the DNS could be the router's IP address--thought it was something that had to be obtained from one's ISP, and I frankly ignored it b/c I didn't understand it.

wombat, you are correct. DNS servers reside at the ISP, and you'll always need to use the ISP's DNS servers on all your devices.

I think ashu must have made a typo, or just meant something else. Your router will NOT act as a DNS server.

[Stormspace]

If you use DHCP you shouldn't have to do anything to the TiVo but set it to obtain an IP automatically.

[wombat2010]

I am beginning to think my problem is due to a hardware limitation, possibly with my Linksys router (acting as switch) not having auto-detecting uplink capabilities on all ports. To attempt to rule out the wireless gaming adapter (G820) as the culprit, I will configure and hook up a Linksys wireless bridge I have (WET11--it's 802.11b and works fine with my wireless-g router) and see if I have the same problems.

I'll also try entering gateways and such, but since the TiVo OR the XBox OR my laptop can connect fine when connected alone, I don't think it's a problem with something like that. It seems like DHCP should work or not, regardless of whether other devices are connected to the switch (unless the switch is limiting things, which is why I will try getting a new switch).

Any recommended switches that anyone here has used successfully? Based on reading switch descriptions, it is difficult to tell whether a switch has auto-detecting uplink capabilities.

[ashu]

:confused: The gateway should be the router's IP, correct. But the DNS? That doesn't make any sense.



wombat, you are correct. DNS servers reside at the ISP, and you'll always need to use the ISP's DNS servers on all your devices.

I think ashu must have made a typo, or just meant something else. Your router will NOT act as a DNS server.

Routers will forward DNS. When set to DHCP, (I'm quite sure) my devices pick up the router's IP as their DHCP server, Gateway AND DNS! Or am I missing something?

Of course, in a more managed network, where the router is aLinux box with two interfaces and running IPChains firewalls, NAT in software etc - setting its IP as DNS would be silly *unless* you also ran a DNS service on it ;)

[rog]

Routers will forward DNS.

So, you are basically saying the (consumer grade) "router" is acting as a DNS proxy of sorts? This is the scenario I think you are describing: Clients set their DNS server equal to the IP of the router. When they make a DNS query to that router, the router in turn passes (or proxies) that request onto the real DNS server at the ISP, then hands the DNS response back to the client.

Well, I suppose it's theoretically possible. But...

1) Why would that ever be necessary? The router is just using the ISP's DNS servers anyway.

2) With DHCP being the usual configuration scenario, and thus, the DHCP server able to tell the clients what the ISP's DNS servers are, why bother with a DNS proxy?

3) I've never seen it. My Linksys router certainly does NOT do this. I use static IP's normally, but when I do turn DHCP on, it always hands the client devices the real IP's of the DNS servers at the ISP, and it never would tell the client to use the IP of the router for DNS.

4) Adding a DNS proxy to a consumer-level device would add cost that would be passed on to the consumer. Might I add, a completely needless cost.

Anyway, I digress and we're getting off topic. But I see no reason to not go with the standard tried-and-true method of using your ISP's DNS servers on every device.

[ashu]

Mere pass-through can be implemented as a rule in firmware ... not much cost there.

The tried and true setting involves (the user or network configure-er) remembering the DNS, or a router that specifies it when a device requests a DHCP IP.

Setting the DNS IP to be the router's IP is superior because it simplifies the steps/effort required to enable static IP!

[rog]

Although it's not quite as simple as a "mere pass through" (keep in mind, the router would effectively be doing network address translation to make a DNS proxy work), you are probably right in that it would be a software solution, and thus, it probably wouldn't add much cost to the router.

I will admit I'm used to thinking in terms of business/enterprise networks.

However, I still maintain my position that setting each client device to use the IP addresses of the ISP's DNS servers is the proper way.

Or, just use DHCP on the clients and don't worry about DNS.

After all, not all routers can/will pass DNS queries in the manner you describe. It's not a RFC standard, AFAIK.

----

Moving along, I second your comments about game adapters. I think they are marketing-heavy and feature-thin. Not to mention needlessly overpriced!

[wombat2010]

However, I still maintain my position that setting each client device to use the IP addresses of the ISP's DNS servers is the proper way.

Or, just use DHCP on the clients and don't worry about DNS.

After all, not all routers can/will pass DNS queries in the manner you describe. It's not a RFC standard, AFAIK.


Point well taken, and that's what I'll do, but in the event I do try entering the ISP's DNS server, is that information typically available through the ISP's web site?


Moving along, I second your comments about game adapters. I think they are marketing-heavy and feature-thin. Not to mention needlessly overpriced!

Yeah, total rip, and total marketing hooey for a crippleware product. I would have paid just as much for a plain vanilla wireless bridge, though it might have worked better.

By the way, any recommended switches for auto-detecting uplinks that you mentioned earlier? I think that is what I'm going to try this weekend.

[pcar1947]

I have been following these post with interest. I am one of the early adapters of the VIXJIM setup. I have been experiencing real-time transfers since feb 04. Of course I have experienced the pain of setting up the game adapters and the Dropping of transfers in mid stream . For the most part it's ok. However it seems you guys have come up with a new and improved wireless g transfer. Does anyone have a diagram of the improved setup? Are routers (WRT54G) replacing the Game Adapter? What does SVEASOFT do for me?

I know these questions have been asked before but this thread has been going since 12-19-03 and I am confused.

[ashu]

Routers that implement bridging (WDS) behave like a 'game adapter' or 'bridge' connected to a 4-port switch. They're more common, so they're often cheaper (Belkins for 5-15 after rebates, 45 for ALL 3 of my routers!)

[eibgrad]

I have been following these post with interest. I am one of the early adapters of the VIXJIM setup. I have been experiencing real-time transfers since feb 04. Of course I have experienced the pain of setting up the game adapters and the Dropping of transfers in mid stream . For the most part it's ok. However it seems you guys have come up with a new and improved wireless g transfer. Does anyone have a diagram of the improved setup? Are routers (WRT54G) replacing the Game Adapter? What does SVEASOFT do for me?

I know these questions have been asked before but this thread has been going since 12-19-03 and I am confused.

I started the ball rolling on the use of Belkin routers some months ago. I noticed at the time that the Belkin F5D7230-4 and F5F7231-4 routers support WDS (Wireless Distribution System), *PLUS*, they could be had cheap, often $10-20 AR (after rebate), or even FAR (free after rebate). Even picked up a router from Home Depot recently for $25 (price matched to Buy.com), w/ $40 rebate, so I made $15!

The reason this situation is so compelling for use w/ Tivo is a) the routers support WDS, so they can be bridged, b) they're dirt cheap (compared to a dedicated wireless bridge or game adapter, easily $80 or more), and c), support for "G" protocol.

So the basis of discussion in this forum has been to aquire these Belkin routers, configure them as APs (Access Point), and enable bridging. Thus, each Tivo can have its own dedicated AP. All it takes is adding a USB 2.0 ethernet adapter (e.g., D-Link DUB-E100), then patching it to the AP. Because all the wireless configuration lies outside the Tivo, it removes any limitations or restrictions on wireless imposed by Tivo (e.g., "b" only). You just want to make sure you use USB 2.0 ethernet adapters (as opposed to USB 1.1) to get the most bandwidth of the "G" protocol as possible.

There are several configurations possible. Some people use one of the Belkin routers *as* a router, the other routers are reconfigured as AP w/ bridging enabled on all devices. The WDS support makes this possible, something not typically found on competitive brands at this same price level.

In my case, I find the Belkin router, as a router, to be quite limited, doesn't provide all the features I'm come to expect w/ an advanced router, such as that found on my D-Link DI-624. Therefore, I've kept my DI-624 but disabled the wireless, then patched one of the Belkin routers in AP mode (and of course, bridging enabled) to the DI-624 w/ a simple ethernet patch cable. All other Belkin routers are also configured as APs w/ bridging enabled, but all these are patched to my Tivos. Of course, you can do the same thing w/ other network devices, like the family room PC, mom's laptop, whatever you like. IOW, I maintain the advantages of my DI-624 router (which doesn't support WDS, so it's not bridgeable), while gaining the advantages of the Belkin router's wireless WDS.

However you configure it, the "big deal" in this forum regarding the Belkin routers is that they support WDS, can therefore be bridged w/ other Belkin "G" routers (and of course, dedicated Belkin APs), and for a fraction of the cost of buying dedicated APs, game adapters, etc. We're not doing anything here in this forum wrt these Belkin routers that you couldn't accomplish w/ other brand routers, BUT, you would be forced to buy expense, dedicated APs/bridges for this purpose.

In my case, I've managed to aquire four (4) Belkin F5D7230-4 routers for a maybe $20 or so (after all rebates). No way, no how, can you build an equivalent distributed wireless system w/ the "G" protocol this cheaply EXCEPT w/ the Belkin line. As far as the SVEASOFT, some people are using this primarily to make the mediocre Belkin router, a better router. Since WDS is already supported, it doesn't have much more relevance to this discussion. In the case of Linksys, I believe SVEASOFT has *added* WDS support (don't hold me to that, I don't follow SVEASOFT advancements all that closely). In that case, it would obviously benefit the Linksys crowd, it would make Linksys capable of achieving the same thing, although you still can't beat the Belkin on pricing. Just beware that WDS, even when supported, is typically NOT interoperable across brands.

I hope that clears up a few things, it's not really as complex once you see it in action, it's a lot harder to explain than actually execute. It's just that not everyone is aware of the WDS/bridging capability built into the Belkin routers, so people usually don't recognize how easy and cheaply they can dramatically improve their wireless network, and in this case, Tivo specifically.

HTH

eibgrad

[ashu]

I started the ball rolling on the use of Belkin routers some months ago.

it's not really as complex once you see it in action, it's a lot harder to explain than actually execute. It's just that not everyone is aware of the WDS/bridging capability built into the Belkin routers, so people usually don't recognize how easy and cheaply they can dramatically improve their wireless network, and in this case, Tivo specifically.


Thanks, great post. And thanks for mentioning the Belkins here ... I've lost count of how many friends have gone the 'Belkin Way' thanks to my preaching, over the last few months.

And I've emphasised a part of your message, just to re-iterate it. Once I had channels and MAC's ironed out, the configuration on a per-edvice (TiVo, PCs, Networked Printer/Scanner etc.) is almost NIL!

Ohh, and I also retained my D-Link 614+ as the 'main' router, and it also handles 802.11B duties, on a separate channel. The Belkins (all 3 of which cost less than the D-Link, combined!) operate in G-only mode.

[rog]

I hope that clears up a few things, it's not really as complex once you see it in action, it's a lot harder to explain than actually execute.

...

HTH

eibgrad

Great post man! You explained it very well. You nearly summed up the whole thread. This one deserves sticky status. :up:

I also retained my D-Link 614+ as the 'main' router, and it also handles 802.11B duties, on a separate channel.

You mean your DLink router can host 11b on one channel and 11g on another? That's quite a router! I've never really tried any of the Belkin products (the fact that Linksys is made by Cisco has always been a big deciding factor for me), but I think I'll pick one of these up next time I see a good deal.

[eibgrad]

You mean your DLink router can host 11b on one channel and 11g on another? That's quite a router! I've never really tried any of the Belkin products (the fact that Linksys is made by Cisco has always been a big deciding factor for me), but I think I'll pick one of these up next time I see a good deal.

Not quite.

Remember, the DI-614+ is a “b” only router, whereas my DI-624 is a “b/g” router. What ashu has done is a slight twist on my configuration. If you recall, I disabled the wireless completely on my DI-624, thus all wireless clients, “b” and “g”, are supported over the Belkin router/AP, which is patched w/ ethernet cable to my DI-624. IOW, I maintain only ONE wireless network, supported completely by the Belkins.

In ashu’s case, he’s decided to leave the DI-614+ wireless ENABLED, while also patching the Belkin router/AP to the DI-614+. In effect, ashu is maintaining TWO wireless networks. Although ashu hasn’t detailed why he did this, I can venture an educated guess.

Using ashu’s configuration, he can maintain a separate “b” wireless network, perhaps for existing “b” clients, esp. if they employ D-Link client adapters. Meanwhile, he can keep all “g” traffic, perhaps all of it strictly Tivo, on a different wireless network. It’s NOT that the DI-614+ supports “b” clients on one channel and “g” clients on another channel, as you inferred from our earlier comments, rather, it’s that the DI-614+ supports “b” clients on one channel, and the ***Belkin router/AP*** supports “g” clients on another channel. Ultimately, all clients, be they wired, “b”, or “g”, end up on the DI-614+ for network services (DHCP, firewall, etc.).

To complete the thought, ashu could go so far as to actively *exclude* 802.11b clients from using the Belkin wireless network by configuring the Belkin router/APs in “54-G Only” mode.

Why all this fuss by ashu? Should be obvious, it increases the “available bandwidth” for all “b” and “g” clients, and thus potentially increasing throughput. Only thing he has to be careful about is avoiding/minimizing interference by using sufficient channel separation (both "b" and "g" use the same 2.4GHz band).

eibgrad

[rog]

got it, thanks for splainin'.

don't forget, ashu just likes playing with these things. ;) sounds like you and i have a similar infliction. it's best not to over-analyze it.

[ashu]

Ahhh. eibgrad should be in Network Psychology Forensics ... if therre is such a thing!

I have one TiVo with a wireless B adapter (D-Link DWL-122) and that is my soon-to-be-sold unit (junk shows, Season Passes etc, rarely any transfers -- MRV nor TTG). The 614+ serves that unit alone.

On my G bridged network served by the 3 Belkins (set to exclusive-G mode, no clients permitted - Bridging only) I have my PCs, TiVos, Vonage device and Network Printer/Scanner/Fax/Copier.

When I finally find a roommate for the spare room, I'll provide the (now-redundant) D-Link 900AP+ Bridge device (802.11B) with a switch (if needed) and have it NOT affect my G network - because it'll be supported by the D-Link 802.11B device. Unless I decide to just pick up a 4th Belkin router ;)

<edit> And yes, the 614 serves as the Router/(static) DHCP server for the entire network, and is 'uplinked' to the cable modem. And the wireless radios on the D-Link and the Belkins are 4 or 5 channels apart. No interference noticed yet, and the D-Link (which only does WEP) has its 802.11B radio turned down to 12.5% broadcast strength.

[Bob Chadwick]

The Belkin router currently has a $60 rebate. I bought one at Best Buy for a net of $9.99.

[markandjenn]

My apologies in advance for the long post, but I am having a difficult time trying to execute this network configuration.

I have followed the sage advice on this thread to network 2 SA TiVos to my desktop PC. I have purchased 3 Belkin routers (7230-4) and 2 Linksys network adapters (USB200M) and I have attempted to create a wireless bridged network.

I first set up Belkin Router 1 on my desktop:
IP Address: 192.168.2.1
Subnet Mask: 255.255.255.0
MAC Address: 00:11:50:40:53:FD
Channel: 6
SSID: default
Wireless Mode: 54G-Auto
Broadcast SSID: Yes
Protected Mode: Off
Turbo Mode: Off
WEP: 128bit
Use as Access Point: Disabled
Enable Wireless Bridging: Yes
Enable Only Specific Access Points: Yes
00:11:50:40:51:BD (Belkin Router 2)
00:11:50:40:63:AF (Belkin Router 3)
Disable ability for Wireless Clients to Connect: No

I then set up Belkin Routers 2 and 3 on my laptop. Both of them are set up identically as Router 1 with the following exceptions:
IP Address: 192.168.2.253 (Router 2)/192.168.2.254 (Router 3)
MAC Address: 00:11:50:40:51:BD (Router 2)/00:11:50:40:63:AF (Router 3)
Use as Access Point: Enabled (Routers 2 and 3)
Enable Only Specific Access Points: Yes
00:11:50:40:53:FD (Belkin Router 1) – In Routers 2 and 3
00:11:50:40:51:BD (Belkin Router 2) – In Routers 1 and 3
00:11:50:40:63:AF (Belkin Router 3) – In Routers 1 and 2

As soon as I connect the third router, my network traffic spikes and I cannot access the internet on any PC. The network operates fine if only 2 of the three routers are connected. When I just have 2 of the routers (1 as router, 1 as AP) I can see both of the routers fine from both my PC and my laptop through IE by typing in the IP addresses. I have added the MAC addresses for the routers to Enable Only Specific Access Points screen and alternatively to the MAC Control List screen with the same results.

As far as connecting the TiVo to the network, I have yet to find success with either set up (either 2 or 3 routers/access points.) When I try to connect via TCP/IP, I either get a message that the TiVo cannot access the gateway or cannot obtain an address from the DHCP server, depending on how I try to connect the TiVo to the network. When I connect the laptop using the same set up (using the router as AP and running a network cable from the AP to the USB200M,) I can obtain an IP address for the laptop, but I cannot do the same for the TiVo.

First off, I am looking for advice on how to set up the Router and Access Points in such a way to not lock up my internet connection.

Second, I have to assume that I am missing something in my set up on the TiVo and am looking for advice on how to set up the TCP/IP connection on my TiVo.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[ashu]

You might have a different firmware than mine. IIRC, all my routers see each other's MACs.

Try letting 2 and 3 ONLY connect to 1, but letting 1 see 2 and 3.

As for missing gateway/DHCP - You need to enable "Access Point Usage" on the first. If its disabled, it better be connected (via one of the 4 patch, not the WAN port) to a separate router which handles DHCP/routing (I use my D-Link because it has superior features, firewalling, tunneling, VPN support etc)

[markandjenn]

You might have a different firmware than mine. IIRC, all my routers see each other's MACs.
My firmware is 4.05.03.
Try letting 2 and 3 ONLY connect to 1, but letting 1 see 2 and 3.
I had tried to have each connect to only one other, but tried to connect them in a continuous chain 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 1. I will try your recommendation.
As for missing gateway/DHCP - You need to enable "Access Point Usage" on the first. If its disabled, it better be connected (via one of the 4 patch, not the WAN port) to a separate router which handles DHCP/routing (I use my D-Link because it has superior features, firewalling, tunneling, VPN support etc)
I do have DHCP enabled on the router and it was able to obtain an IP address when I connected the AP to the USB200M to the laptop, but I could not do the same for the TiVo. I am assuming (maybe incorrectly) that I am not adjusting the settings on the TiVo correctly.

I have tried to obtain and IP automatically and have tried to set up the connection manually. Based on the information I posted above, can you make some recommendations on what my configuration should be?

[eibgrad]

Don't have time right this minute to look further, but a quick check, make sure NAT is disabled on routers (eh, APs) #2 and #3, see System Setting menu option.

P.S. NEVER, EVER do a setup w/ encryption enabled! It only adds to the confusion, if you run without encryption during initial configuration, it's one less potential source of the problem. Only after all the connections are working should you enable encryption.

Another point, I'm wondering if perhaps you are filtering out the MAC address of the Tivos. Remember, each of those USB200M's has a MAC address, and if you've enabled filtering on one or more of the routers/APs, you have to INCLUDE those MAC addresses in your ALLOW list. I'm not talking about the wireless bridging section, but the MAC address control section for clients. For example, the AP I have attached to my router ONLY allows the MAC addresses of the D-Link DUB-E100 ethernet adapters on my Tivos, nothing else (for security reasons). On the other hand, all my downstream routers (similar to your #2 and #3) having MAC filtering OFF (perhaps I should add them as well, but as of now, I haven't done so). As I recall, the reason I didn't was my concern that I might lock myself out from their configuration interface unless I also added my primary PC, laptop, and other computers from which I usually manage the APs. Was just too much hassle, but since I'm connected to the primary router via wire, I decided to at least add MAC filters there.

eibgrad

[pcar1947]

Thanks for the response to my message. I will continue to study this and try and acquire the Belkin routers necessary.

For me since I have an investment in Linksys ( WRT54GS, GS PCI Card) I will consider changing out these components as well.

Then of course I have to get this past the Change Control Board at the house ( MY WIFE AND DAUGHTER) before I can implement any changes into the network.

Thanks again

[markandjenn]

Thanks ashu and eibgrad!

I followed your advice and was able to see my TiVo on my network. I turned off security and changed the series in which I connected my access points and was able to see one of my TiVos. I did not have the chance to do the second one yet, but should be able to connect it when I get home.

Originally, I just changed the series in which I connected my APs, but by coincidence, one of the addresses I chose for my APs (192.168.2.254) was the same as the IP address that was assigned to the TiVo and it caused me to have to reset all of my routers and APs and start again.

As far as the settings for TiVo, apparently the TiVo was able to set them automatically without any intervention on my behalf.

When I get home, I still need to add the second TiVO to the network and test the speeds.

Thanks again.

[ashu]

AFTER getting things working, don't forget to turn your security back on! Things *should* continue to work smoothly :)

[strahd_zarovich]

Belkin routers for $9.99 at CircuitCity.

[Grimm1]

Couple of questions here. From what I have read this seems to have started out as a way to get wireless G to work with TiVo before TiVo was supporting it.

Now that the latest updates support G what advantages are there to using the Belkin router/wired adapter solution over just a wireless G adapter?

Also in regards to the Belkin rebates....where do you get these? For example if I do the Home Depot price match that was mentioned will Home Depot have the rebate or is there a link that I can print out?

[rog]

Couple of questions here. From what I have read this seems to have started out as a way to get wireless G to work with TiVo before TiVo was supporting it.

True.

Now that the latest updates support G what advantages are there to using the Belkin router/wired adapter solution over just a wireless G adapter?

Unfortunately, the support for 802.11g adapters is still immature. The TiVo software has not yet been fully optimized for 11g support. Many posters on this forum have reported 11g transfer speeds that are actually slower than known 11b transfer speeds.

Here's a post (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2646926&&#post2646926) from TiVoBill.

The technique outlined in this thread will (for now) get you the highest transfer rates possible for wireless TiVoToGo transfers.

[bobcarn]

Couple of questions here. From what I have read this seems to have started out as a way to get wireless G to work with TiVo before TiVo was supporting it.

Now that the latest updates support G what advantages are there to using the Belkin router/wired adapter solution over just a wireless G adapter?

Also in regards to the Belkin rebates....where do you get these? For example if I do the Home Depot price match that was mentioned will Home Depot have the rebate or is there a link that I can print out?

There's a couple of reasons why a wired adapter (USB ethernet adapter for the Tivo) connected to a wireless bridge is preferable.

With wireless and wired, the Tivo itself (since it's a computer) is handling the setup of the adapter, the protocol, negotiation, etc., etc., etc. From reading the threads, it seems that the Tivo, upon startup, initializes the adapter and network settings (like you'd expect), but doesn't necessarily continually refresh the connection. If something interferes with the wireless connection, and it drops, the Tivo doesn't necessarily reinitialize the adapter later to reestablish the connection.

With a wired adapter (USB ethernet adapter), the Tivo is always going to see the adapter. With a static IP address, the adapter will always be available and TCP/IP will always be there. Even if there's a disruption and the wireless signal is dropped by the wireless bridge, the Tivo is still going to have a connection to the bridge through the ethernet adapter. The bridge will maintain its own connection and (hopefully) recover from disruptions, and the Tivo will already have its connection maintained. To the Tivo, the network is always available, even if it can't reach a certain device. With a wireless adapter, the network itself can become unavailable.

There's also less overhead in communicating with a plain ethernet adapater than in communicating to a wireless adapter. Simply put, simple ethernet is much easier and problem-free than wireless. So by letting the wireless equipment handle itself (through bridging or whatever), and letting the Tivo only have to worry about a simple ethernet connection, you get better stability and (most likely) throughput.

That is at least the way I understand it after reading of the various configurations and problems in these threads. I have a simple USB ethernet adapater hooked up to my Tivo, plugged into a Linksys 5-port switch, and that connects to my router via an 802.11b bridge. Even with the "b" protocol, I get good throughput and rarely have any problems. The only time I have a problem is sometimes streaming music when my PC goes to sleep.

[CrispyCritter]

There's also less overhead in communicating with a plain ethernet adapater than in communicating to a wireless adapter. Simply put, simple ethernet is much easier and problem-free than wireless. So by letting the wireless equipment handle itself (through bridging or whatever), and letting the Tivo only have to worry about a simple ethernet connection, you get better stability and (most likely) throughput.Nice post. The other major related point in favor of a wired adapter on the TiVo and bridging, is that wireless networks are changing very rapidly, and Linux wireless drivers (needed on the TiVo) are not being supplied (by the manufacturers or Linux community) very fast, if at all. Thus if you ever upgrade your wireless network, it may be hard to even find new wireless adapters supported by TiVo.

[wombat2010]

Wombat - glancing at the G820 manual ...
1. try turning off Super G mode in all forms (Advanced Tab, Performance menu) - my Belkins work better when all fancy-schamncy hi-speed and turbo modes are OFF.
2. This device needs the Gateway and DNS to be your router's IP (set these on the TiVo and the XBOX)
3. If possible, try to connect TWO devices via the bridge, with your Linksys used as a switch in VERY close proximity to the main router (your PC and XBOX should be easy to manage). Both wired. This will ensure interference at the distance/range you're using it at normally, isn't the culprit.

Finally, not what you want to hear - this is a "Gaming adapter". Fancy packging and more limited firmware. IMHO you would have been better with the (less intentionally crippled, as I've discovered gaming adapters to be!) G810 instead. Can you exchange this at the point of purchase?

As it turns out, your final comment about gaming adapters turned out to be right. I will spare all the details because I've posted an update in another thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2799998#post2799998

Suffice it to say, it's a tad frustrating that an old wireless bridge has more capabilities than a new wireless game adapter. Glad I hadn't sold that WET11 yet, or I'd still be scratching my head. Now I just have to figure out whether the G810 (which is a bridge, not a game adapter) will work like the WET11. Maybe I'll have to get a WET54G. Argh!

Anyway, thank you for your help as I tried to unravel this mess. At least now I know where the problem lies!

[eibgrad]

Heads up, folks, yet another Belkin F5D7230-4 router deal (http://forums.slickdeals.net/t95775.html?)!

eibgrad

[NiteStrider]

I'm having an issue specifically using the Tivo-to-Go desktop to recognize my Tivo.

I'll list the key facts out in order to get the point fast:

1) I've got the bridged network up and running using 2 Linksys WRT54gs
2) my Tivo can get to the Internet for updates
3) I can connect to my Tivo via the 4ttps:// method

What I can't do is see my Tivo from my Tivo-to-Go software server on my 192.168.1.x network, mainly because I have the second WRT54g giving out DHCP in the 192.168.2.x range.

Question: Is it possible to put both side of the 2nd router on the same subnet (and by extension, all devices connected to it)?

Here's my setup:

PC 1 192.168.1.x
|
PC 2 (Tivo server) 192.168.1.x
|
Router 1 (AP) 192.168.1.x
{
{Wireless
{
Router 2 192.168.1.x (Static IP for external interface via wireless)

Router 2 192.168.2.x (LAN IP)
|
Tivo 192.168.2.x

[rog]

I'm having an issue specifically using the Tivo-to-Go desktop to recognize my Tivo.

I'll list the key facts out in order to get the point fast:

1) I've got the bridged network up and running using 2 Linksys WRT54gs
2) my Tivo can get to the Internet for updates
3) I can connect to my Tivo via the 4ttps:// method

What I can't do is see my Tivo from my Tivo-to-Go software server on my 192.168.1.x network, mainly because I have the second WRT54g giving out DHCP in the 192.168.2.x range.

Question: Is it possible to put both side of the 2nd router on the same subnet (and by extension, all devices connected to it)?

Here's my setup:

PC 1 192.168.1.x
|
PC 2 (Tivo server) 192.168.1.x
|
Router 1 (AP) 192.168.1.x
{
{Wireless
{
Router 2 192.168.1.x (Static IP for external interface via wireless)

Router 2 192.168.2.x (LAN IP)
|
Tivo 192.168.2.x

Yes, it should be possible. Linking the same subnet together with two devices is bridging. I think the term bridging has taken on a new morphed meaning with wireless devices. With switched Ethernet networks, bridging always meant connecting two separate networks together but on the same subnet: 192.168.1.x to 192.168.1.x.

Example: a growing small business opens a second office. They lease a point to point T1 and setup two routers in bridging mode. Both offices are on the same LAN and subnet: 192.168.1.x. That simplifies things quite a bit and is often done.

Anyway, I digress. You should be able to do that with your wireless devices. What's stopping you from trying? :)

[NiteStrider]

Wasn't there something about not having two different interfaces on a router on the same subnet? I know Cisco (and by extension Linksys) has a limitation like that.

So what do you suggest? Simply change the internal IP of the second router to the same subnet as the external IP (192.168.1.x)?

[rog]

Wasn't there something about not having two different interfaces on a router on the same subnet? I know Cisco (and by extension Linksys) has a limitation like that.

So what do you suggest? Simply change the internal IP of the second router to the same subnet as the external IP (192.168.1.x)?

Yes, that is what I am suggesting. Haven't you done that on the first router already?

You may be correct about limitations on wireless routers. To be honest I don't know as I haven't tried to bridge wireless devices (only wired ones, sorry).

Ashu?

[strahd_zarovich]

Free Belkin (http://www.pcconnection.com/ProductDetail?sku=429324)

[ashu]

Free Belkin (http://www.pcconnection.com/ProductDetail?sku=429324)

DON'T BUY THAT! That's a 6231-4.

Well, unless you want a B bridge!

Why bother when a G device can be had for a $23 profit (whoa there, eibgrad!)

[ashu]

Question: Is it possible to put both side of the 2nd router on the same subnet (and by extension, all devices connected to it)?


THAT specifically is something I'm quite sure the Linksys can do (no personal experience, but it bridges the same way! You seem to be using your second as a wired client getting its IP from the first one!)


Here's my setup:

PC 1 192.168.1.x
|
PC 2 (Tivo server) 192.168.1.x
|
Router 1 (AP) 192.168.1.x
{
{Wireless
{
Router 2 192.168.1.x (Static IP for external interface via wireless)

Router 2 192.168.2.x (LAN IP)
|
Tivo 192.168.2.x

Why not turn off DHCP and routing on Router 2? Of course, you then have to use the (2nd) Linksys in Bridge mode. This may be something the default firmware doesn't support (Linksys owners ... HELP?) and necessitates installation of pay-firmware from Sveasoft (a 3rd party).

I'd hunt down the corresponding threads on anandtech.com forums - they discuss this in great detail. Although I sem to remember someone describing it earlier in this thread as well!

[JFalc]

I am a network novice.
I have read the threads about the benefit of BELKIN and I think I understand most of what you are explaining.

I need to go out and buy several items of hardware but I have questions first.

My current configuration.

I have TWO TIVOS
540 series 2 and
140 (older) Series 2
THESE ARE NOT PRESENTLY NETWORKED.

I want to set up a wireless network with my computer and two Tivos all connected (I also eventually want to have wireless G laptop capability in the event I buy a laptop in the future).

My questions….

How many WIRED ETHERNET USB2.0 adapters will I need? I presume 2
How many Belkin Routers do I need? (Two? Three? Or Four of these Belkins?)
I realize I will also need a ROUTER…is the NETGEAR WGT 624 okay?
Will I need anything else?

Am I correct that each TIVO BOX will have a wired ethernet adapter attached to it and a Belkin attached to the wired adapter.

The reason I am asking if I need two three or four of these Belkins is that I am unsure if the TIVO Belkin’s will “link” directly with the NETGEAR router, or if I need one or two belkins at the location of the router to first link with the TIVO Belkins and then hook up with a wire to the NETGEAR Router?

I hope I am making my inquiry clear. Thanks for your help on this. -John

[eibgrad]

I am a network novice.
I have read the threads about the benefit of BELKIN and I think I understand most of what you are explaining.

I need to go out and buy several items of hardware but I have questions first.

My current configuration.

I have TWO TIVOS
540 series 2 and
140 (older) Series 2
THESE ARE NOT PRESENTLY NETWORKED.

I want to set up a wireless network with my computer and two Tivos all connected (I also eventually want to have wireless G laptop capability in the event I buy a laptop in the future).

My questions….

How many WIRED ETHERNET USB2.0 adapters will I need? I presume 2
How many Belkin Routers do I need? (Two? Three? Or Four of these Belkins?)
I realize I will also need a ROUTER…is the NETGEAR WGT 624 okay?
Will I need anything else?

Am I correct that each TIVO BOX will have a wired ethernet adapter attached to it and a Belkin attached to the wired adapter.

The reason I am asking if I need two three or four of these Belkins is that I am unsure if the TIVO Belkin’s will “link” directly with the NETGEAR router, or if I need one or two belkins at the location of the router to first link with the TIVO Belkins and then hook up with a wire to the NETGEAR Router?

I hope I am making my inquiry clear. Thanks for your help on this. -John

I wasn't quite sure, but from your post, it sounds like you have no network at all. IOW, perhaps your PC is directly patched to your cable/dsl modem? No switches, no routers, no other PCs, etc. Anyway, I'll assume this is the case for now.

The lack of an existing network is both good and bad news. Good news, in that it provides maximum flexibility, and by extension, minimizes costs by not wasting money on the wrong items. Bad news, in that, as with any network, you want to make sure you have addressed basic network issues, like wired vs. wireless, # of clients, topography, security, etc., independent of your Tivo's. IOW, it's a two step process, you get your network designed and developed, independent of your Tivo's. But you have the advantage of having those decisions made w/ the knowledge that you'll be adding Tivo's to that configuration later.

Assuming you don't have a router, you could buy a Belkin F5D7230-4 router, configure it as a router, with firewall, DHCP, etc., all the usual stuff. Then you buy additional Belkin routers, but configure them as APs only. The built-in bridging capability of these routers/APs is what allows them to communicate. So you can create a wide area wireless network, with each AP essentially a wireless "hub". Since Tivo doesn't not provide an ethernet adapter on the back panel, you need to buy one (1) USB 2.0 ethernet adapter for each one, which is what makes it network enabled (over wire). You then patch your Tivo from the ethernet adapter to the belkin AP (or hub), each AP is wirelessly bridged back to the Belkin router, and whalla, you've got your Tivo running over wireless "G"! It's really not all that complicated, topography-wise. Configuring the APs/hubs can be a little tricky, but once you get past that issue, the basic concepts are pretty straight forward (at least I think so).

But there are other slight variations. For example, some people don't like the Belkin router, as a router. At best, it's just average (some might say a little less than average). But for most people, it's OK, it provides the basic features, although it is lacking in some other areas. Some ppl have decided to use a different brand of router, but disable its wireless. In my case, I much prefer my D-Link DI-624, but unfortunately, it doesn't support wireless bridging, like the Belkins routers do. So I can't simply go out and buy more D-Link routers and configure them as APs. Nor can I bridge Belkin routers to the DI-624's wireless, the WDS features of the Belkin brand are NOT interoperable (i.e., they don't work across brands). So, what I've done is disable the wireless on my DI-624, then patched a Belkin router running in AP mode via ethernet cable over one of the DI-624's LAN ports. In effect, all I've done is add Belkin wireless capability to my DI-624 router. I get the best of both worlds -- all the neat, advanced features of the D-Link DI-624 (but no wireless), combined with ALL the wireless features of the Belkin F5D7230-4 (but no routing features, it's configured strictly as a bridgable AP).

And yet others, like Ashu, have decided to keep their D-Link router *and* it's wireless, and patch a Belkin router in AP mode as an *additional* wireless network. IOW, they maintain two (2) separate wireless networks, perhaps one for "b'" clients, the other for "g" clients (like your Tivo's). This increases effective bandwidth, and as long as you have sufficient channel separation ("b" and "g" share the same 2.4GHz band), it should work.

So there are multiple ways to approach it. The simplest and most likely to avoid complications is to buy just Belkin routers. One is configured as a router, all the rest are APs. If in the future you decide to go for a different router, perhaps one w/ more features, it's easy enough to install it, convert the existing Belkin router back into an AP, and patch it to the new router. It shouldn't even affect the configuration of the rest of your system!

My suggestion is to first buy ONE Belkin F5D7230-4 router, and simply get it networked and supporting your PC, nothing more, don't complicate the issue by introducing Tivo's, USB ethernet adapters, and any of the rest of that nonsense. GET YOUR BASIC NETWORK ESTABLISHED FIRST! Get familiar w/ it, make sure the firewall is working correctly, that security is setup properly, etc. *THEN* consider adding your Tivo's as clients by adding ONE more Belkin router, getting ONE USB network adapter, and getting it on the network. Make sure you can get it all working properly before committing more $$$ than necessary. Once you get one Tivo connected, the second and subequent Tivo's are trivial. Heck, I would make sure, using a long ethernet cable if necessary, that I could get one of my Tivo's connected over wire (directly patched from USB adapter to router LAN port) before even buying the second router!

IOW, always keep it as simple as possible, solve the EASIEST (if not always the most convenient) problem first. Buy equipment only as needed, always try to have small successes and learn from those successes, and NOT try to buy a whole bunch of equipment and build your network in one, big complicated mess. Especially if your not familiar w/ the territory. Yeah, it's easy for some of us to make large, sweeping changes and design decisions, but for a novice, this is fraught with dangers. Very easy to become frustrated otherwise, and waste lots of money on the wrong equipment.

eibgrad

[ashu]

Wow - just wow. Your patience knows no bounds :) (or do you copy and paste from older posts?)

JFalc - did that help? :)

[JFalc]

You assumed correct, I have no network right now. I do not need advanced features at all so I will not need any special features above and beyond what is offered in the "average" Belkin router.
Very helpful and I will do it step by step so I am not overwhelmed. THANK YOU!!!
-John

[barkowitz]

Can I ask you all to weigh in on an issue? What is acceptable signal strength? My varies between 40 to 60% gets above 60. I've dealt with all the obvious issues (no wireless phones or microwaves) and I am wondering about the feasibility of adding an expander to my network.

My set up:

Wireless B (bought a while ago) -- Linksys BEFW11S4 V.2 Wireless Access Point Router.
Linksys Wireless Adapters on two Series 2 TiVos.
Satellite PC with a Linksys Wireless Adapter.
Apple notebook with built in Airporter.
Dell notebook with built in wireless adapter

Since the upgrade, I have been all kinds of problems. My signal strength has not worsened, but my functionality sure has. Can't transfer programs reliably, can't use Tivo Desktop reliably. But my TiVo "phone calls" (wirelessly of course) work perfectly.

So my question is this: Does anyone here recommend the WSB24 extender? I already bought the extended attennas a while ago and they improved signal somewhat, but I don't want to spend another $200 or so to come up with something no better than I have now.

Any other recommendations other than the WSB24 or should I stick with Linksys now that I am already this far into it?

Thanks in advance for any advice...

[rog]

barkowitz, just a thought here...

You might think about just replacing your older 802.11b Linksys wireless access point + router for a newer 11g model. The WRT54G is a popular choice and can be found inexpensively online or in retail stores.

Wireless equipment has come a long way. My experiences with wireless gear have been more pleasurable as the technology has matured.

Of course, all your other current 11b equipment will still work with the newer 11g router if you leave it in the default "mixed mode". Newer 11g airport cards, etc., will take advantage of the higher speeds while your other devices continue to work at 11b rates.

My gut says this would take care of some of your problems, but I'm sure others will have some different ideas too.

[Grimm1]

But there are other slight variations. For example, some people don't like the Belkin router, as a router. At best, it's just average (some might say a little less than average). But for most people, it's OK, it provides the basic features, although it is lacking in some other areas. Some ppl have decided to use a different brand of router, but disable its wireless. In my case, I much prefer my D-Link DI-624, but unfortunately, it doesn't support wireless bridging, like the Belkins routers do. So I can't simply go out and buy more D-Link routers and configure them as APs. Nor can I bridge Belkin routers to the DI-624's wireless, the WDS features of the Belkin brand are NOT interoperable (i.e., they don't work across brands). So, what I've done is disable the wireless on my DI-624, then patched a Belkin router running in AP mode via ethernet cable over one of the DI-624's LAN ports. In effect, all I've done is add Belkin wireless capability to my DI-624 router. I get the best of both worlds -- all the neat, advanced features of the D-Link DI-624 (but no wireless), combined with ALL the wireless features of the Belkin F5D7230-4 (but no routing features, it's configured strictly as a bridgable AP).
eibgradAll I have in my network right now is a D-Link router (DI-604) which I think is pretty much a DI-624 without the wireless capability. From what your saying it would probably be best leaving the DI-604 in place and adding a Belkin to it configured as a bridgable AP instead of replacing the DI-604 with the Belkin.

[ashu]

All I have in my network right now is a D-Link router (DI-604) which I think is pretty much a DI-624 without the wireless capability. From what your saying it would probably be best leaving the DI-604 in place and adding a Belkin to it configured as a bridgable AP instead of replacing the DI-604 with the Belkin.

Precisely.

'Patch' them together (one of the 4 downlink ports on EACH). Oh, an first configure the Belkin, with your PC directly connected to it and on the same subnet (1992.168.2.xxx) to NOT do any routing or DHCP. Turn it into a dumb, bridgable, wireless switch and access point.

[barkowitz]

Update:

I bought the WSB24 (Linksys Wireless Signal Booster) from a seller on ebay ($70 instead of the $199 retail) and it works excellently (if there is such a word).

My signal strength immediately improved from 40s to 70s (I actually see the word "excellent" for signal strength -- what a shock) and I can actually watch programs as they transfer.

I am one happy puppy...

[hitech_rednek]

Wow - interesting thread. I had been looking at Linksys routers/APs to see if any of them could run in bridge mode, and all I found was the "Game" adapter, which would work but I haven't seen any discounts/rebates on it.

Just curious - does anyone know if the Belkin A+G or Pre-N routers can run in bridge mode? I did some quick checking but without downloading a large User Guide (18.5MB for the A+G or 35MB for Pre-N) I can't seem to find out whether they do or don't.

I doubt the Pre-N stuff could be had cheaply now but if I could snag a good deal on a pair of A+G routers that would bridge, I'd rather run my TiVo's on 11a at 54Mb/sec (rated) and leave my 11b stuff alone. Adding 11g but still having 11b stuff around causing the 11g to run at 22Mb/sec or worse is not a great improvement (some, but not great ;-) )

I also have a USB Print Server (wired, not wireless) for my good photo printer but can't seem to come up with a good location for it that will be convenient to wire, so adding a cheap wireless bridge to this would be nice too. The wireless USB Print Servers are still in the $70+ range. I got this wired one for about $20 after rebates.

[ashu]

rednek - find out for us!

And what is 18.5MB these days? I'd argue that if you don't have the means (bandwidth) to find out, you don't need a fast home network anyway. Prove me wrong! ;)

<edit> One of the HUGE advantages of pre-N equipment is their ability to overcome ths silly radio limitations of a/b/g - which only allow one channel (connection) to be active at a time. Add even a second wireless device, and watch your individual bandwidths plummet by 50% (plus overhead!) :eek:

This would be especially true of pre-N bridges, which would presumably (have multiple devices connected toe ach and ) maximize bandwidth and use all available (2? 8?) channels for data transmission among themselves! Finally -wireless scalability!

[hitech_rednek]

Hehe, ok you have a point. What is 18.5MB - I have DSL. But I'm a bit of an 'old timer' when it comes to bandwidth...I started out with a 300baud modem and thought I'd died and gone to heaven the first time I used 9600baud. So I still am a bit frugal with the bandwidth unless I have a good reason to use it. Ok - this is a good reason. I'll get the manuals and determine if they can do this also. Will report back soon. ;-P

[hitech_rednek]

Hmmm....the in User Manuals for both the Pre-N model (F5D8230-4) and the A+G (F6D3230-4) the section on "Using the Access Point Mode" reads *exactly* the same as the 11b model (F5D6231-4):

Using the Access Point Mode
Note: This advanced feature should be employed by advanced
users only. The Router can be configured to work as a wireless
network access point. Using this mode will defeat the NAT IP sharing
feature and DHCP server. In AP mode, the Router will need to be
configured with an IP address that is in the same subnet as the
rest of the network that you will bridge to. The default IP address
is 192.168.2.254 and subnet mask is 255.255.255.0. These can be
customized for your needs.
1. Enable the AP mode my selecting “Enable” in the “Use as Access
Point only” page. When you select this option, you will be able to
change the IP settings.
2. Set your IP settings to match your network. Click
“Apply Changes”.
3. Connect a cable from the WAN port on the Router to your
existing network.
The Router is now acting as an A+G access point. To access
the Router’s Advanced User Interface again, type the IP address
you specified into your browser’s navigation bar. You can set the
encryption settings, MAC address filtering, SSID, and
channel normally.

If I were reading this and didn't already know from this thread that people were using this as a client bridge (bridging to another router/AP) I wouldn't think this meant that was possible. So, since it reads the same, it would appear that these routers has the same capability as the 11b model. Does anyone here own either of these already, who could possibly experiment with them? I will probably poke around for some really cheap deals on these and if I see any I may grab a few.

One thing that I'm impressed with is that the Pre-N and A+G models also support WPA and I think the A+G even supports 802.1x with a RADIUS Server (I've done this in the corporate enterprise before) although most people don't care to set up a RADIUS server for authentication, along with either a Certificate Authority or Active Directory user ID authentication. Some of the other features in the Belkin are quite encouraging also.

[ashu]

Well, what're you waiting for? Go out and buy a few of these puppies to test this out ;)

eibgrad already mentioned that its unreasonable (and even impossible, per firmware specs) for the 125MBPS (yeah right) hyper-G (or whatever they call it) 7231-4 to show an improvement in performance, because it lapses back to 54MBPS in Bridge mode, hopefully buy multiple, open only one first and see whether this is the case (you'll know when you go into the WDS settings, and then confirm the speeds in the wireless menu)

[hitech_rednek]

Well, what're you waiting for? Go out and buy a few of these puppies to test this out ;)
[...]


Riiiiiiiight..... :D

Well, I was thinking about this a bit and the only reason(s) I would want to bother with this are:

1) Academic curiosity, which I have in abundance ;) I've wasted (?) countless hours diddling with stuff to see if something with little or no long-term value would work. :rolleyes: Still doesn't stop me from doing it sometimes. :p

2) Giving back to the forum - I've only been here a short time and have learned some quite useful things. I'd like to contribute myself whenever possible.

3) Speed gain for one of my TiVo's - I have 3 and only one is wireless at 11b. But I've done transfers to/from this one and it doesn't seem to take an excruciatingly long time. I can probably live with the speed indefinitely.

4) Security - since it may not be possible to do WPA in bridge mode, this may be moot unless a firmware upgrade adds this functionality.

If I can find a really good deal on any of this stuff, I think I'll do it. If somebody else beats me to it, that's fine too. :o

[eibgrad]

Yes, yet another FREE Belkin router (http://forums.slickdeals.net/t101199.html?&highlight=Belkin), only this time it's the Belkin F5D7231-4 125mbps HSM model.

Remember, this *will* interoperate as an AP/wireless bridge with other F5D7231-4 *and* F5D7230-4 routers (standard "G"). When configured in a wireless bridging mode (i.e., WDS enabled), the F5D7231-4 downgrades to standard "G" anyway, so there's no particular advantage of having the F5D7231-4 over the slower F5D7230-4.

Beyond the speed difference, there's virtually no difference between the two. Only thing that comes to mind is the F5D7231-4 has a smaller footprint compared to older F5D7230-4 models. Obviously the F5D7231-4 will have a little more resale value too.

eibgrad

[enza]

Folks I went out and purchased the Pre-N router and unless I am missing something, it does not support bridging. If you do a search on bridging on the Belkin website on the following shows up:
Belkin Knowledge Base Article ID: 2814
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How To: Configure WDS (Wireless Bridging) with the 54g router

The information in this article applies to the following products:
802.11g Wireless DSL/Cable Gateway Router (F5D7230-4)
802.11g Wireless Network Access Point (F5D7130)

Summary
This article describes how to configure WDS (Wireless Bridging) in the 54g router

I may be missing it but I've looked through the manual and have not seen anything on bridging the Pre-N, which sucks because the range on this thing is amazing. Anyone have any other suggestions?

[eibgrad]

Folks I went out and purchased the Pre-N router and unless I am missing something, it does not support bridging. If you do a search on bridging on the Belkin website on the following shows up:
Belkin Knowledge Base Article ID: 2814
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How To: Configure WDS (Wireless Bridging) with the 54g router

The information in this article applies to the following products:
802.11g Wireless DSL/Cable Gateway Router (F5D7230-4)
802.11g Wireless Network Access Point (F5D7130)

Summary
This article describes how to configure WDS (Wireless Bridging) in the 54g router


I may be missing it but I've looked through the manual and have not seen anything on bridging the Pre-N, which sucks because the range on this thing is amazing. Anyone have any other suggestions?

According to Tom's Hardware review of NETGEAR RangeMax Wireless Router (WPN824) (http://www.tomsnetworking.com/Reviews-194-ProdID-WPN824-1.php), you're right, no WDS support (see Wireless Features section (http://www.tomsnetworking.com/Reviews-194-ProdID-WPN824-7.php), very last paragraph):

"Missing features include no ability to set transmit power level, force the transmit rate, or set the advertised base rate. And, finally, as with other current MIMO products, the 824 does not support wireless bridging or repeating."

Not surprising though. WDS can't even support WPA as yet (at most WEP) because of the complexites of managing continually and randomly changing keys. The architecture of pre-N is probably different enough that hoping for WDS support is unrealistic, at least at this time. Personally, I'm leery of jumping on the pre-N stuff until it's adopted, irrespective of WDS support.

Remember, one of the big motivations here in using the Belkin F5D7230-4 and F5D7231-4 routers is economics, they're DIRTY CHEAP! The lack of WDS support by ANY vendor doesn't preclude building a distributed wireless network w/ the ol' standby, vendor supplied APs (access point). Only issue there is price ($80 minimum for 802.11b/g, I assume MIMO APs are even higher). So if you're willing to endure the expense of pre-N today, perhaps another price exacted is needing to use pre-N APs. IOW, it comes w/ the territory. Maybe once "N" is adopted, WDS will have been addressed, maybe even interoperable w/ other vendors and even WPA support (one can always hope). Athough by then Belkin's pre-N might be non-standard :(, who knows. That's the risk of heading down the pre-N/MIMO/RangeMax road today.

eibgrad

[ashu]

Although (if WDS WERE to be supported, perhaps in a quick firmware revision, but before the N standard is set) there's something to be said about owning a set of independent, interoperable and hard to hack (because no one has the right kind of cards to scan your packets!) routers/bridges, especially if Belkin's standard becoms the non-standard down the line ;)

[branley]

Wow, this thread is long. Its a bit difficult to determine what the "group" recommends at this point. Can you perhaps summarize what you all have learned over the year and a half of this thread?

I just received my 2nd Tivo. I have a Wireless G network in my house. My first Tivo is hooked to the network via standard USB 1.1 external ethernet card and my router is a US Robotics.

I've seen several recommendations in this thread, from using gaming adapters to using multiple routers that support bridging. One question I have, is if I have to alter the connection from my current networked Tivo (the external ethernet card), or can I just leave that as is, and only concern myself with putting the new tivo online via wifi (which, btw, is too far away for a wired connection).

What network setup do you recommend considering where I currently stand today?

Brian

[eibgrad]

Although (if WDS WERE to be supported, perhaps in a quick firmware revision, but before the N standard is set) there's something to be said about owning a set of independent, interoperable and hard to hack (because no one has the right kind of cards to scan your packets!) routers/bridges, especially if Belkin's standard becoms the non-standard down the line ;)

Ashu is definitely a "glass is half full" kinda guy :D

eibgrad

[ashu]

branley - I have NO IDEA where you stand unelss you post your location in your profile!

As to your questions - one excellent summary post is linked in my sig - its by that "glass half empty, but I have many, many routers so I'm happy" guy eibgrad.

<edit> That recommendation (and my own solution, based ther-upon) inolves cheap Belkin F5D7230-4 routers running in Bridged (WDS) mode. At 10 each, and upto 4 permitted to bridge together, you can't beat that :) And it involves no changes to your TiVo wired (network) setup - just let it 'get the IP from the router' (DHCP) as before.

[branley]

ashu,

I've been watching the local ads for about a month here and so far no luck on those belkins. They are still running about $70 -$80.

Can I leave my first tivo connected via usb external ethernet card? It doesn't need to be wifi does it?

And there's no way to just get one belkin and bridge it with my current US Robotics I'm guessing. So I'll have to trash that?

[ashu]

Microcenter has it for 39.99 and a 30 rebate. I believe this is valid online too (pay tax, save shipping) - if you're not fortunate enough to have an MC in your neighborhood.

Also keep an eye out for discounts on the 7231-4 - I think eibgrad mentioned one yesterday/today! It was a slickdeals link, I think. For our purposes, it would be identical.

And yes - you can bridge Belkins to Belkins only (or VERY similar hardwar - some reported success with *some* Linksys, Apple Airport, Broadcomm-based units (bridges and AP/routers). But YMMV! So you'd need 2 (or more). Don't forget their silly one-rebate-per-offer-per-address/household limitation. (Which is as evil as the concept of rebates). I have no problem circumventing crud like that by using multiple address/shipping info/credit cards etc ;)

[branley]

Also keep an eye out for discounts on the 7231-4 - I think eibgrad mentioned one yesterday/today! It was a slickdeals link, I think. For our purposes, it would be identical.

I missed that post, and I forgot to check Circuit City's ad. Wonderful! I'll get two of those today.

Repeating one of my previous questions: Can I leave my current Tivo wired via external ethernet to one of the these belkins and not use wifi for it? My cable box would go into that same belkin as well, and then the 2nd belkin would be in the backroom connected to my 2nd tivo. Is that ok? I don't need to have a router on the cable box, and then a seperate belkin for each tivo do I?

[ashu]

Either you're missing the point, or I'm not putting it across well enough - ONE of your Belkins can become your router as well and be the device the otehr Belkins bridge with. Any of all these (up to 4) Belkins can have devices connected to it as if they were connected to a wired network.

eibgrad and I use our D-Link's as our routers, and each of our belkins are configured identically (routing/NAT disabled, only Bridging enabled) and behave like a giant, multi-location 4/8/12/16 port switch (depending on how many we're using). ALL devices connected to them have NO wireless setup - and think they're connected wired (which they are - the whole point of a wireless bridge between network locations!)

[ashu]

I missed that post, and I forgot to check Circuit City's ad. Wonderful! I'll get two of those today.


Remember - separate stores/counters, receipts, credit cards, home addresses, mailing address on the rebate form etc ;)

[branley]

Either you're missing the point, or I'm not putting it across well enough - ONE of your Belkins can become your router as well and be the device the otehr Belkins bridge with. Any of all these (up to 4) Belkins can have devices connected to it as if they were connected to a wired network.

eibgrad and I use our D-Link's as our routers, and each of our belkins are configured identically (routing/NAT disabled, only Bridging enabled) and behave like a giant, multi-location 4/8/12/16 port switch (depending on how many we're using). ALL devices connected to them have NO wireless setup - and think they're connected wired (which they are - the whole point of a wireless bridge between network locations!)

Right I think I understood that part. Let me be more specific with some details so be sure we are communicating clearly.

Currently my only networked tivo is connected to my only router (US Robotics) via wired ethernet. That router is also where the cable box connects (duh, sorry). :)

So I buy two belkin routers, and one more usb adapter. One of the routers replaces my us robotics, and still has the tivo going to it wired, like now. The other router goes in my bedroom, and I connect the tivo to it via usb ethernet adapter. Then I do all the configuration of the routers, but I'll worry about that later.

All I was concerned with, was whether I really needed three routers, or if two could do it. Wasn't sure if the tivos needed dedicated router/bridges.

Also, now that I think about it, I suppose I need to replace my current usb ethernet adapter because its usb 1.1. So I need to buy two of each.

[branley]

Remember - separate stores/counters, receipts, credit cards, home addresses, mailing address on the rebate form etc ;)

Really? Wow. I didn't do that when I bought the vonage hardware last week. I bought one for my father-in-law and one for me. Both at the same store, same counter, same credit card, though seperate receipts and of course would go to seperate houses. Do you think that will be a problem? Or is that a different case?

Do I really need seperate counters/stores? If I buy one with cash, and one with my credit card, I don't see how anyone could know both purchases were the same person.

[ashu]

Rebates are evil. Slapping on "One per household" rules is even more evil. Sometimes it's two per household. Read your rebate fine print. And make copies. Better yet, have your dad mail one in (or have the mailing address say he did, and let the rebate come back to him!)

And in your scenarios, you can keep OR retain 3 routers. Like I said, Belkin #1 can be merely a dummy bridge (network extension by WDS) device, or ALSO double up with router duties. Meager feature-set, but adequate for most needs!

[enza]

Just a quick update:

I now have real-time transfers and a signal strength of 100% on my remote (bedroom) Tivo. Here is my setup:

1. Belkin Pre-N Router
2. Family Room Tivo connected via Linksys USB200M with ethernet cable directly into the Belkin Pre-N router.
3. Bedroom Tivo connected via Linksys WUSB54GP-BP.

The signal strength is at 100% as compared to 50-55% with my dlink wirelessb. This is in a single family home of about 2500 sf, through many walls. The range on the pre-n is amazing, you can get cc to price match wal-marts $132 price, but the whole setup can be done for about $210-$225. Not as cheap as other methods, but easy, very easy.

[popechild]

Umm... yeah, so I'm going to give away my lack of knowledge about these things here, but I've got a question. Can this belkin router/usb adapter combo be used to act as a print server for a usb printer, or is that a totally different animal?

[ashu]

No USB ports. So it wouldn't work directly.

If you're using a networked Operating System, you could plug the printer into a PC and 'share' it over the home network so other systems could print to it directly anyway. Or buy an ethernt-USB print server to plug into the Belkin - added to the cost of the Belkin, nett cost would still be less than a wireless print server. With more flexibility of course! (3 more ports)

[popechild]

No USB ports. So it wouldn't work directly.

If you're using a networked Operating System, you could plug the printer into a PC and 'share' it over the home network so other systems could print to it directly anyway. Or buy an ethernt-USB print server to plug into the Belkin - added to the cost of the Belkin, nett cost would still be less than a wireless print server. With more flexibility of course! (3 more ports)

Yeah, I understand there's no USB port on the router (I'm using the Belkin to USB/ethernet "ultimate wireless" setup for my tivos already - thanks in no small part to your posts!) And my printer is currently networked through my desktop, but I use my laptop wirelessly much more often and would prefer to not have to keep the desktop running all the time...

So are you saying that there's a USB-ethernet adapter "print server" that's different than a normal USB-ethernet adapter (like the USB200M's I'm using on the Tivos)? How much would such an animal cost and what would your recommendation be for a model?

[ashu]

No clue. But yes - its diff. (and more expensive) than a mere USB-eth networka dapter.

And NOT all prniters will work. Many will not work completely (driver will show features that the interface will no longer support).

If possible, either leave the PC on and install drivers on every system, or get a new printer with a Network Interface! I have a Brother 3820CN (under 200, 4-function!). The Brother 420CN is a small-footprint version for $125ish!

[wbarnes5]

HELP!
I just bought a Motorola WE800G Wireless Ethernet Bridge. Using a Trendnet USB to Ethernet adapter, I tried connecting my Series 2 to my network. (I should mention that I have been connected with an 802.11b wireless for sometime now.)

The problem is that when I connect the adapter and bridge to my Tivo, the Tivo will not recognize the wireless connection. I've rebooted the tivo and done all the normal fixes. I'm open to suggestions from anyone on this subject.

[ashu]

TiVo only recognizes wat is directly connected to it. Inthis case - your Trendnet USB-Eth adapter.

Pre-configure your Bridge device to function on the network by connecting it to a PC as per its manuel. THEN connect it to the Trennet and configure TiVo as an ethernet WIRED connection.

[wbarnes5]

TiVo only recognizes wat is directly connected to it. Inthis case - your Trendnet USB-Eth adapter.

Pre-configure your Bridge device to function on the network by connecting it to a PC as per its manuel. THEN connect it to the Trennet and configure TiVo as an ethernet WIRED connection.

Thanks for your quick reply.

This makes total sense.....but where do you tell the Tivo that it is a wired connection? In setup all I can find is the setup for wireless. Sorry I'm so dense about this.

[wbarnes5]

I'm sorry...

It never occured to me to test the connection. Tried it and it worked fine.

Thanks again. This a great forum, and the folks on here really do help out, those of us who are, at times, Tivo Challanged.

The only downside is now that I have this one working, I have to go out and buy another bridge to set up my other Tivo.

Thanks again.

[ashu]

:D

Glad you figured it out. Must have been difficult without a manuel. Although I bet a manual was an adequate substitute!

Eye kant speel on wikands.

[branley]

I purchased the belkin routers, and the linksys ub 2.0 adapters and installed last night. Everything went very smoothly, and my wife and I settled in to bed last night to watch a recorded show from the living room tivo in the bedroom tivo. At one point it told me it had lost the network connection, but I retried and it worked. We watched an hour last night and an hour this morning. We were so happy.

Today we were out for the day, came home to use our new tivo sharing feature, and it was no longer working. Neither tivo was on the network. As I began to try and retrace my steps my network got screwier and screwier, until I had to completely take it down and build it back up from scratch.

As I put it back together, I found something insteresting. Everytime I set the 2nd router to be an access point and to bridge, my existing network becomes unstable. Trying to use the 1st and main router is sporadic, with every 3rd or fourth request to its admin web site, timing out. I also could not connect to the network via my wifi notebook until I unplugged the 2nd access point.

So as it stands now, my cable modem is plugged into the 1st belkin, as is my first tivo, a desktop pc, and my wifi notebook connects to it. All are working fine.

I now need to get the 2nd router setup with the tivo in my bedroom and that's where I'm having problems.

Any suggestions?

[c3]

1. Are you using WPA? After I set up both units with WPA (just to see what would happen), the wireless network was still working. After reboot, it didn't work. Use WEP instead.

2. Try to disable wireless client connections on the access point.

3. You may just have a bad unit.

BTW, the Belkin router is $10AR again this week at Circuit City.

[branley]

1. Are you using WPA? After I set up both units with WPA (just to see what would happen), the wireless network was still working. After reboot, it didn't work. Use WEP instead.
I have not used any security at this point. Is security required? I was hoping to get it working without security first, to reduce the initial complexity.

[branley]

When I setup the two routers, router A is the one attached to one tivo and the cable modem, and router B is attached to the 2nd tivo.

Router B is setup as an Access point, do I also set it up as a Wireless Bridge?
Router A is setup as a wireless bridge, but not as an access point, right?

I don't see anywhere, that I can instruct router B to connect specifically to router A. Do I have to do that, or does it just connect to whatever router is setup as a wireless bridge?

[ashu]

One as Access Point, ALL as Wireless Bridges.

In bridging setup, ensure they accept/bridge with each other's wireless MAC IDs (under router case)

[popechild]

Having a wee bit of trouble with the "ulti-wi-net" and thought one of you kind gents might be able to help me.

I say a "wee bit", because at the surface level, everything seems fine. Here's a quick rundown of my setup...

2 tivos (S2 SA in living room, Toshiba H400 in bedroom).
3 locations for belkin routers. (primary "router" connected to desktop in office, then 1 "bridge" each at Tivos in living room and bedroom).
2 Linksys USB200Ms on the Tivos.
1 laptop with belkin wireless network card.

When I setup the belkins, I was having some trouble getting the whole bridge thing to work right, so I ended up basically going step-by-step with a "how-to" I found on google. I'm not sure if this is the best/only way to do it, but I basically...

a) tried to set it up so only the "router" was DHCP enabled at 192.168.2.1(thinking it wouldn't "confuse" anything that way.
b) hardwired my laptop to other two routers individually and set each of them to bridge - changed one of them to 192.168.2.2 and one to 2.3.
c) When I put in MAC addresses for bridging, I didn't put 2 addresses in all 3 routers. I basically "daisy-chained" them. On the router in the office (on one side of the house), I put in the MAC for the "bridge" in the bedroom (which is in the middle of the house). I that bridge in the bedroom, I put in both the MACs for the office and the living room. In the living room, I only put in the MAC for the bedroom again. I have no idea why I did it this way except it's the way the google how-to did it.

Once it was all plugged in and setup, I went to my config page of the main router at 192.168.2.1. On the DHCP client list, I saw the desktop (hardwired), the laptop (twice for some reason?) and the bedroom Tivo, but not the living room Tivo.

I can see both computers from both Tivos for photos and music, and can see both Tivos from both computers for Tivo Desktop transfers.

So what's wrong?

1) First, I'm just a little worried that my setup seems kind of "ghetto." Is that daisy-chain thing the right way to go? Should I put both "other" MACs on all 3 of the belkins? The how-to also said to only broadcast SSID from the belkin "bridge" in the living room (opposite end of the chain from the router), since that's where I do most of my laptop work, but I ended up setting up the router in the office to broadcast because my laptop wasn't connecting to the network right the other way. Should I set only one / all / other? of them to broadcast? Should they all be the same broadcast SSID if so or different?

2) When I had trouble connecting to the network through the broadcast SSID of the living room "bridge", it started making me wonder if each of the bridges was actually setup correctly. Is it possible the living room bridge didn't get DHCP disabled and is putting my living room Tivo on a different DHCP (since I couldn't see it in the router's DHCP client table? When I changed the IPs of the "bridges" to 2.2 and 2.3 (from the factory 2.1), I was no longer able to access them, so now I'm not sure how to tell if they're correct or not.

3) Even though I thought I changed the bridges to 2.2 and 2.3, I can't ping them. And for some reason, now I can't even reach the router's 2.1 admin page (at least from the wireless laptop). It just times out.

4) Finally, (and the reason I started looking into this whole mess), I've never been able to access either Tivo's nowplaying page through the https://192.168.x.x/nowplaying/index.html link. My transfers using Tivo desktop are SLOW and I'd love to be able to transfer the other way. But when I try to connect to any IP option using the above formula it just times out. No password asking, no nothing.

I realize this may be way more in-depth than it needs to be to ask a few simple questions, but I'd prefer to try to give all the information that might be needed to disect the problem. Please let me know if there's more info needed that I can provide...

Thanks!!!

[c3]

a) tried to set it up so only the "router" was DHCP enabled at 192.168.2.1(thinking it wouldn't "confuse" anything that way.
b) hardwired my laptop to other two routers individually and set each of them to bridge - changed one of them to 192.168.2.2 and one to 2.3.

By default, the DHCP server will assign IP addresses starting from 192.168.2.2 through .100. Unless you have changed that range, you should assign the access points to something outside that range.

[popechild]

By default, the DHCP server will assign IP addresses starting from 192.168.2.2 through .100. Unless you have changed that range, you should assign the access points to something outside that range.

Good call, I forgot to mention that. I did actually change the range to 100-199, and then made the access points 2 & 3.

[ashu]

Bahh - your room NAMES are confusing me ... I'm trying to interpret your setup as
router1, 2, 3, rooms1, 2 3 (office, bedroom, living room) and devices wired1 (PC 1), wired2 (tivo in bedroom), wired3 (tivo in living room), wireless1 (laptop).

Make sure ROUTING (and DHCP) are ONLY enabled on Router1 placed in room1.

Daisy chaining the bridges should be fine (I experimented with this myself), as long as both ENDS have each other's WIRELESS MAC id's recognized/enabled for bridging. (check under router, although your partial success implies this part isn't the issue).

This means, if the daisy chain is via router 2, that router 2 should have two entries (router1 and 3's Wireless MACs) and each of 1 and 3 should have only router2's Wireless MAC listed.

Whether you broadcast SSID or not, all 3 should allow wireless clients for optimal range extension, and all three should include the MAC address of your wireless router (and all other devices' wired MACs, IIRC!) if you're using MAC filtering (different from MAC's permitted for bridging - separate UI page!) - to permit them to connect. This should let your router roam between your 3 wireless AP's seamlessly (I haven't tested this - have no movable wirelss devices - yippee!!) - asper the other threads/HOWTOs out there.

Something in that long ramble should help. Also - if you aren't already - turn off WEP?WPA and set thing sup, THEN re-enable WEP. One less concern/point of failure!

[popechild]

Bahh - your room NAMES are confusing me ... I'm trying to interpret your setup as
router1, 2, 3, rooms1, 2 3 (office, bedroom, living room) and devices wired1 (PC 1), wired2 (tivo in bedroom), wired3 (tivo in living room), wireless1 (laptop).

Make sure ROUTING (and DHCP) are ONLY enabled on Router1 placed in room1.

Daisy chaining the bridges should be fine (I experimented with this myself), as long as both ENDS have each other's WIRELESS MAC id's recognized/enabled for bridging. (check under router, although your partial success implies this part isn't the issue).

This means, if the daisy chain is via router 2, that router 2 should have two entries (router1 and 3's Wireless MACs) and each of 1 and 3 should have only router2's Wireless MAC listed.

Whether you broadcast SSID or not, all 3 should allow wireless clients for optimal range extension, and all three should include the MAC address of your wireless router (and all other devices' wired MACs, IIRC!) if you're using MAC filtering (different from MAC's permitted for bridging - separate UI page!) - to permit them to connect. This should let your router roam between your 3 wireless AP's seamlessly (I haven't tested this - have no movable wirelss devices - yippee!!) - asper the other threads/HOWTOs out there.

Something in that long ramble should help. Also - if you aren't already - turn off WEP?WPA and set thing sup, THEN re-enable WEP. One less concern/point of failure!

Thanks a bunch for the helpful suggestions. i went back in to try a few things this afternoon and basically was able to get it all working... yes! It may have been just a matter of unplugging everything and "re-setting" it all in the ideal order, but I also went ahead and put both of the other MAC's on the main router's bridge page just to make sure the daisy-chaining wasn't causing a problem.

Now everything's working great and I can see the nowplaying page!! Also, the main router (x.x.2.1) DHCP client list shows all tivos and computers now (x.x.101-104). Here's my only remaining "huh?" and I can live with it I guess because it's not causing a problem (it just bugs me to not know why it's not working the way I expect!) I can ping everything BUT the access point/router in the living room (router3/room3). Perhaps related, I can access the router admin pages of the main router in the office (room1/router1 - via x.x.2.1) and the one in the bedroom (room2/router2 - via x.x.2.3).

I can't access the one in the living room (room3/router3 - x.x.2.2 I think) in addition to not being able to ping it. I had *thought* I setup router1 as x.x.2.1, router2 as 2.2, and router3 as 2.3, but router2 is coming up as 2.3 and nothing's coming up as 2.2. So I either never changed router3's IP to 2.2 or I accidentally set two of the routers (2&3) to 2.3. Either way, it bugs me that I can't access the admin page for it.

Is there a way for me to figure out what the router's IP is? Some kind of scan perhaps to see what IPs are being used on the network? (not DHCP assigned mind you, but static router IPs). I'd like to be able to access this setup menu. Alternatively, I guess I could "reset" router3 and try to start over with it, but I'm convinced I would never get the whole thing working right again.

Thanks so much for the suggestions so far - any further suggestions on how to get my ulti-wi-net working it's ulti-best?

[ashu]

hmm ... I have brain freeze now. I'd recommend a rest/restart on router3. I bet it's something you overlooked.

Oh - or it might be having issues 'routing' to x.x.2.3 because it has two possible paths (via the daisy chain and directly from wired1-connected-to-router1. Try a PC connected directly to router 3 (move it to room1 to test, disconnect PC wired 1 from router1, hook to router3.

[popechild]

I haven't moved it to room 1, but I did hardwire it to the laptop (and removed the laptop's wireless card) earlier. It still found the same stuff though (router1 on 2.1 and router2 on 2.3) - and no luck getting to the router3 admin screen. I also shut it down and restarted as part of my "overall reboot" earlier that fixed most problems, and it was the last thing to get re-started, so I wouldn't think another restart would make a difference at this point.

I'll have to play some with it later and I'll post back if I figure anything out. I realized I actually do need to fix it even though the Tivo/network is working fine otherwise, because I disabled security to get the network running properly when I set it up and I assume I need to get back into the router3 admin page when I reset the security settings, right?

Hmm... maybe I should just try resetting router3 and starting over from scratch with it.

[hitech_rednek]

Responding to this question about Print Servers, but first, thanks to "c3" for mentioning that the Belkin Routers were $10 at Circuit City this week after rebates (both online and in store, I assume...). Since I probably won't make it to the store I plan to order several of these (well, it's one per household so I'll probably have to get someone else to order the 'extra' ones ;-) )

Regarding Print Servers - yes they are different and more expensive, but if you watch you can find some rebate/sale deals on these also. I picked up a Netgear USB-eth Print Server recently for about $20 after rebates to use with one of the several printers in the house, probably the good photo printer but not sure yet, may have to test to see which ones work or don't work with this. I'm not using it yet because I'd like to place this in a 'central' location but don't want to pull Cat5 to any location I've identified yet. So I think I'll hook this up to one of the $10 Belkin Routers set to be a bridge and make it a wireless printer. I haven't seen a wireless USB Print Server for under about $75, but I'll be getting the same functionality for about $30. If you see a really good deal on a wireless USB print server, I'd jump on it.

Wouldn't it be nice if these printers came with a PCMCIA slot and support for popular wireless cards? Yeah, I know, this would probably at least double the price of the printer. Ugh. The HP printer I have supports an optional Bluetooth adapter but it was about $100 so I canned that idea (besides the fact that I don't have anything else that supports Bluetooth yet to talk to it).

No clue. But yes - its diff. (and more expensive) than a mere USB-eth networka dapter.

And NOT all prniters will work. Many will not work completely (driver will show features that the interface will no longer support).

If possible, either leave the PC on and install drivers on every system, or get a new printer with a Network Interface! I have a Brother 3820CN (under 200, 4-function!). The Brother 420CN is a small-footprint version for $125ish!

[Andrewp75]

I am not getting anywhere near the transfer rates that other people are talking about. Not sure what I am doing wrong. At this point here is my setup.

Desktop connected via ethernet cable to Linksys WRT54G

Toshiba Tivo RS-TX20 running 5.4 connected to Linksys WUSB11 (signal 60-65%)

and an 80 hour series 2 tivo running 7.1a connected to a WUSB11 (signal 70-75%).

I am getting transfer rates of about 5-7 megs a min. This is far from real time. Any suggestions on how to speed this up would be greatly appreciated.

I have not really messed with the settings other than 64 bit WEP encryption, and updated the two WSUB11s to the newest firmware versions. One is revsison 2.4 and the other is revision 2.8.

Thank you all in advance for your helpful and insightful repsonses.

A

[bd4tru]

At the risk that this has been mentioned earlier, it's important to note that 54Mbps and 11Mbps spak to the Mega BITS per second, not Mega BYTES. Thus, the theorhetical best 54Mbps can achieve would be 54/8=6.75 megaBYTES per second. This is something to take into account when making these networks.

As I see it, a USB 1.1 (12 Mbps) wireless device would be restricted to 1.5 megaBYTES per second (12/8=1.5). Thoughts??

[ashu]

Valid point ... but have you also noticed that when threads get REALLY long, nobody bothers to read page 1? :D

[hitech_rednek]

At the risk that this has been mentioned earlier, it's important to note that 54Mbps and 11Mbps spak to the Mega BITS per second, not Mega BYTES. Thus, the theorhetical best 54Mbps can achieve would be 54/8=6.75 megaBYTES per second. This is something to take into account when making these networks.

As I see it, a USB 1.1 (12 Mbps) wireless device would be restricted to 1.5 megaBYTES per second (12/8=1.5). Thoughts??

Not only that, but try dividing it in half. 802.11b,g, and a protocols have a 50% overhead factor (where ethernet has maybe 12-15%, I don't remember exactly). This is because of the CSMA-CA strategy used in these standards. The "CA" stands for "Collision Avoidance" - a lot of time is spent making sure 2 nodes aren't trying to talk at the same time.

[c3]

I tested transfer rates last weekend with the belkin routers, copying large files from one PC to another. 100Mbps wired (PC-router-PC): about 5MB/s. 54Mbps wireless (PC-access point-air-router-PC): about 1MB/s.

[bd4tru]

These are exactly the responses I had hoped to generate with my earlier post. This is a distinction that is lost on many people. Anyway, as long as my network is working, I can't complain too much about the speed. Well, . . . maybe I can.

[wbarnes5]

Encountered another problem with my Ultimate Set up. Got both G Bridges working on each of 2 Tivo's. They test fine. I can see what's on each Tivo from my PC, but can't transfer from one Tivo to the other.

Any suggestions?

[ashu]

Encountered another problem with my Ultimate Set up. Got both G Bridges working on each of 2 Tivo's. They test fine. I can see what's on each Tivo from my PC, but can't transfer from one Tivo to the other.

Any suggestions?

Hmm - do you have two Belkins (#1 and #2) - one at each TiVo - and a third (#3) where your PC is? Try this setup -
- #1 points to the Wireless MAC of #2 and #3 in its Bridging/WDX menu
- #2 only lists #1
- #3 only lists #1

Let us know if that works.

[Irishman]

Ashu, I almost agree with you except........

I use Linksys with WDS but I don't think this would be different for Belkin.

On each unit I would list the MAC address of the other two.

Ashu's config works for transfering from tivo (2 & 3) router to pc router just fine. But if you want to transfer from tivo to tivo you don't want to make an extra hop across the pc router. in his config, this would be the result. Remember, in WDS your signal gets halved with each extra hop it has to make.

[wbarnes5]

I'm using a Linksys router, with 2 motorola G bridges. Each bridge is able to connect to the network fine, and my pc can see the files on each of the 2 Tivo's. Also, when I bring up "What's Playing" the other Tivo is listed. i.e the Tivo named bedroom lists the livingroom tivo and vise versa. I just can't bring up a list to transfer from one to the other. When I attempt to do this I get a long error message that essentially says that it can't find a connection to the other Tivo.

I can transfer from either Tivo to my pc though. I just had a thought. I have not checked the IP addresses of each Tivo since the change. I may have a conflict there. I'll let y'all know what I find.

Another question. As I understand, what I've been reading in this and other forum's the latest software upgrade configured the USB port on the Tivo to recognize USB 2.0. I tried a 2.0 USB to Ethernet adapter and could not get a link to the network. I had to go back to the USB 1.1 adapters I was using.

I just thought I'd complicate the issue further.

as always, you guys are super helpful. I really do appreciate it.

[ashu]

Irishman - just as troubleshooting - to see whether, for some reason, there is a race condition (would sometimes lead to 8-12 second pings while I experimented with settings!) between two possible available paths.

Of course, in wbarnes' case, extra the hops via the mothership (Linksys router) are hapening anyway. Hmm - is your HMO set up perfectly? (log into tivo.com/manage and turn it off, connect units, turn it on, force another connection). For testing purposes - any chance you can move the TiVo's to BOTH be wired together (via the router or another switch located where one of the TiVos already is)?

Is your router blocking any MAC addresses (is MAC filtering enabled?). If so, temp. disable it. And if things work, when you do re-enable it - try enabling/permitting MAC ids of both mot. bridges, and all devices connected to them (just the TiVos' wired adapters, or other devices too - if you're using a switch conencted to one of the bridges)

[wbarnes5]

I tried turning off the HOM connecting units and turning HOM back on. (really stupid question, what doe HOM stand for?) What I did was turn off the transfer feature, forced a connection on both bridges, then turned it back on and forced another connection with each bridge. There was no change. Checked IP addresses, they are fine, both bridges are picking up the Tivo MAC addresses.

Neither of the bridges are switch connected. I even took the newest bridge and went through another set up with a Motorola tech on the phone.

Checked the Linksys wireless router and MAC filtering is disabled.

I'm really stumped on this one. I can't understand how I can transfer between both bridges and my PC and the Tivo's but I can't transfer between them.

[c3]

Not sure what HOM stands for, but HMO stands for Home Media Option.

What if you take the Linksys router out of the picture and just have the two Motorola bridges talk to each other? Maybe the two brands are not compatible for this situation. Usually you want to use the same brand for all wireless bridge devices.

[ashu]

Do your Mot. bridges have separate IP addresses? Hope you aren't PRECISELY replicating te setup on both! How did you configure them - while connected to a PC?

Try -
- one Bridge to one TiVo
- other bridge to PC (which I assume is now connected wired, directly to router)

See whether thigns still work.

[wbarnes5]

each bridge has it's own unique IP. I configured each bridge via hardwired ethernet from the network.

I am beginning to suspect that there is a problem with the second Mot bridge, as it behaves differently. This may sound silly, but on the 1st Mot bridge the wireless light stays on continuiously, while on the 2nd one the light blinks at a regular rate. I asked the Mot tech guy about this and he said that it was ok. He said the one with the solid light might be blinking so fast I could not detect it. I'm not too sure about that.

I'm going to set up the Tivo's like I had them before the newest bridge, get it transfering, then substitute the new bridge for the old one. If it fails then I know there is a problem with the bridge.

I'll keep you posted. Again thanks for the help and suggestions.

[ashu]

Different firmware revisions could cause that kind of un-identical behavious (blinking/steady light). Of course, testing the bridges is a great idea - include the PC as well, because it's a known (and easier-to-configure) quantity. i.e. connect the bridges cyclically to TiVos/PC and test transfers in all directions (from the POV of the bridges).

Good luck :) (It sure won't be fun, but it will be rewarding!)

[hitech_rednek]

Just received my Belkin F5D7230-4 router. Can't wait to try this out as a bridge.
Unfortunately I only got one while the rebate was valid. If anyone notices that Circuit City or anyone else has a special deal on these, please post it in this thread. :D

[ashu]

7.99 at one of the C's (inclined to think CrapUSA, not Ciruit Crappy) this week. Eleven gazillion rebates to fill out (and have rejected!) though ;)

<edit> Apparently not - se below.

(I'm embarrassed about my post count in this thread and will henceforth
a. Consolidate respnses
b. Request folks to use 'Search'
:p
)

<edit 2> Apparently, I will also continue not to care to correct my atrociously careless spelling.

[c3]

7.99 at one of the C's

Not c3. :) That was only 1-day Memorial Day sale, not the whole week.

[hitech_rednek]

Just received my Belkin F5D7230-4 router. Can't wait to try this out as a bridge.
Unfortunately I only got one while the rebate was valid. If anyone notices that Circuit City or anyone else has a special deal on these, please post it in this thread. :D

I was just reading back farther in this thread to see where (I thought I saw) someone (ashu?) detailed the settings for the Belkin to make it a bridge....didn't find it yet, but I have a question - I did see a post that said the WDS feature only worked on Belkin-to-Belkin, is that true? So if I try to get this to act as a bridge connecting to any other brand of AP/router it probably won't work? I'll probably try it anyway but just wondered if I was wasting my time until I get another Belkin.

[c3]

As far as I know, there is no industry standard for WDS, so different brands may or may not work together. Best Buy has the Belkin router for $10AR this week.

[ashu]

Linksys WRT54G/WRt54GS, Belkin 7230-04, 7231-04, some Motorolas, Apple (whatchamacallits) all use the same chipset/circuitry (but different PROM sizes and firmware types) and have been reported to occasionally bridge together with varying reliability. See the Sveasoft forums (third party firmware). I haven't bothered trying any of this myself, but reports look semi-optimistic.

[eibgrad]

Bare with me if some of the following info is repetitive or well-known, I simply don't have the patience to review ALL of this lengthy thread. But I did want to pass on some information obtained from a reconfiguration of my Belkin network from last night.

To review my original config, I have a D-Link DI-624 router (wireless disabled), which in turn has a Belkin F5D7230-4 router (in AP mode) attached via a LAN port. I have two Humax DRT800 Tivo's, each w/ their own Belkin F5D7230-4 routers, also in AP mode, wirelessly bridged (w/ WDS) to the the AP on the DI-624. All has worked well enough, but for reasons I won't detail here, I wanted to reconfigure some things last night, and ran into problems.

First, beware all my Belkin routers were of the older "red box" type, v1444, w/ firmware 4.03.03. As I've mentioned in previous posts, this firmware seems to have a number of bugs, the most prominent being the inability to save changes on certain pages. Well last night the situation proved worse than ever. It got to the point where almost NOTHING I changed would take! I finally got so disgusted, I did a hard reset. But then ANY attempt to place the router in AP mode simply resorted back to router mode. I then decided to disable NAT and DHCP manually, which would indirectly convert into AP mode, which did work. But then any attempt to change the SSID, mode, etc., wouldn't take either. Weird. At this point, I was stumped as to how I EVER got these routers working w/ WDS previously. Despite all my attempts, I could not get everything back to even the prior working configuration. I must have worked on this thing for 2 hrs, got essentially nowhere.

Since the initial configuration, I've aquired three more Belkin routers (free), as follows:

2 x Belkin F5D7230-4 (Circuity City, white box, small foorprint, v2000, firmware 4.05.03)
1 x Belkin F5D7230-4 (Home Depot, vacuum formed packaging, small footprint, v1000, firmware 4.03.03)

I decided to break out the routers from Circuit City, and use them instead. I noted each had the later 4.05.03 firmware, WHICH WORKED PERFECTLY! No issues with configuration pages not taking. Then I broke out the router from Home Depot (thinking since this was a smaller footprint, it would probably be v4.05.03 as well, but proved to be 4.03.03, just as w/ my older "red box" F5D7230-4's), and it *did* have all the same updating issues.

Since I needed at least one more working router to complete the reconfig, I decided to risk a firmware update to the router w/ 4.03.03 (Home Depot purchase). The Belkin support pages list this as "Europe/UK" update, so I was somewhat leery. Fortunately, it went smoothly. And sure enough, it fixed all the update problems. Not quite sure what makes this firmware "Europe/UK" specific, but a quick examination didn't provide any obvious differences. But since I was only using the router for AP mode, I assumed this wouldn't be a problem.

So clearly, a *big* issue w/ these Belkin routers is the 4.03.03 firmware, it's just plain buggy and unreliable. Would updating the older "red box" F5D7230-4 routers w/ this same 4.05.03 firmware have worked as well?? Beats me, but if you're having problems w/ these older boxes, you might want to consider it. As always, any firmware update is inherently risky and can render your router USELESS and nothing more than a permanent paperweight if it fails. But as in my case, sometimes the situation is so bad, you're willing to risk it. That's the mood I was in last night, I was prepared to throw the router in the trash can if the firmware update failed.

So the *best* routers to use for this wireless bridging configuration, based on my experiences, is the "white box" models w/ v2000 or better, since this is likely to come equipped w/ 4.05.03 firmware. It's up to YOU to decide, should you have similar problems to myself, if you want to risk the firmware upgrade to 4.05.03. Why there isn't a North American 4.05.03 firmware upgrade for this router (not one just labeled for Eurpose/UK use) available from the Belkin website escapes me. I suppose another alternative is the 5.00.02 firmware for the F5D7230-4 v3000, but this seems even more risky. Consider this at your own risk.

eibgrad

[ashu]

I have two WhiteBox (v. 2000, Firmware 4.05.03) and one Red Box (v. 1444, Firmware 4.03.03) fucntioning togetehr very reliably now. For ages. Of course, initial setup sometimes exhibited the bug (couldn't save changed settings) that you refer to!

The Red one is actually downstairs hooked to my 'main' D-Link router, only because it is larger and has a stable stand to be placed vertically in a smaller space. The two smaller form factor ones are upstairs, sitting upside down, with their antennae pointing downwards (no other way to turn the antenna to point down!)

I have completely avoided changin ANY settings on any of them, once they started working fine. Which is why the (WAY more stable, robust) ancient D-Link serves as my Firewall/DHCP?Router server! Belkin made a great feature-set available at mass-production values, but dropped the ball on their firmware. On of these weekends ... Sveasoft :)

[branley]

Thanks to all for the information on using the Belkin routers as bridges. I have them working, and we've been enjoying watching any shows from other tivo for two weeks now. It provides so much more flexibility for us.

I do have one problem now that I have this new setup, and I'm hoping someone on here has some idea of what I can try next.

Ever since I went to this belkin bridge option, I can no longer get my tivo to access any HME apps. I have 2 tivos and 2 pcs on the network. Both pcs can see the tivos and each other, and the tivos can see each other. Right now I have the HME samples running from my laptop, and the simulator sees them fine, and I have galleon running from my desktop and the simulator see its just fine, but the tivo just won't list any of the apps.

I have rebooted with both galleon and the HME sample server runnning and no luck. I've never had a problem before. It seems too coincidental for it to not be related to my new home network setup (with the belkins).

Any suggestions as to what to try now?

Brian

[wbarnes5]

each bridge has it's own unique IP. I configured each bridge via hardwired ethernet from the network.

I am beginning to suspect that there is a problem with the second Mot bridge, as it behaves differently. This may sound silly, but on the 1st Mot bridge the wireless light stays on continuiously, while on the 2nd one the light blinks at a regular rate. I asked the Mot tech guy about this and he said that it was ok. He said the one with the solid light might be blinking so fast I could not detect it. I'm not too sure about that.

I'm going to set up the Tivo's like I had them before the newest bridge, get it transfering, then substitute the new bridge for the old one. If it fails then I know there is a problem with the bridge.

I'll keep you posted. Again thanks for the help and suggestions.



Well I decided not to fool with my little problem for a few days. The problem of not being able to transfer files from one Tivo to the other. (using g bridges rather than USB wireless) Now, without changing anything, I can see the saved programing on each Tivo, and can transfer to some degree. By that I mean, I was able to transfer programing from one Tivo (livingroom) to another (bedroom), but I can't transfer the other way.

Like I said, I have not changed anything on the set-up since this weekend when it the system could be seen by my PC and transfer from each Tivo to the PC, but neither Tivo could see the other. This gets stranger by the minute.

I think my next attempt to fix the problem will involve doing nothing for a couple of weeks. By then everything should be working fine, given the history of this little drama!!!

[eibgrad]

Discovered another "nice to know" piece of information today for the Belkin WDS configuration.

Just today, I added a third Belkin router (in AP mode) for a third Tivo and configured it like all my other routers/APs. But this time, I ran into terrible connectivity problems. As soon as I added the new router/AP, connectivity on the other routers/APs became unreliable, pings would work sometimes, then suddenly stop, then not at all. Sometimes I'd get half way to the login page of one of the problem routers, and it would just stop, midway through display.

I suspected that perhaps there was some sort of "race" condition or network congestion. So I decided to ENABLE protected mode, whalla, all the problems went away. I originally had protected mode DISABLED (w/ 54G-Only mode) to maximize performance. My thinking was that since I didn't have 802.11b traffic, I would eliminate this overhead (which just checks the airway for clearance before transmitting). But apparently it helps ANY traffic, including 802.11g. Because once I enabled protected mode, all the goofy behavior ceased. In fact, all I had to do was enable protected mode on the router/AP attached to my D-Link DI-624 (the "master" AP, for lack of a better term), and the problems ceased. I enabled protected mode on the rest of the routers/APs too, just to be safe. Whether that is truly necessary, and perhaps deminishes performance, remains to be seen.

So a heads up, if you're using quite a few of these belkin routers w/WDS, beware of this condition and realize you may need to enable protected mode as network traffic increases. I suspect this connectivity problem *may* also manifest itself w/ fewer routers/APs when managing LARGE amounts of data, such as HME transfers, Galleon apps, whatever. I have no proof, just a healthy suspicion.

eibgrad

[ashu]

Interesting. That was one of the changes I made when i had whats eemed to be race conditions between my two upstairs (slave) Belkins and the main downstairts unit. The other was to force one of the upper fellas to route through the second upper one (a two hop to the downstairs for the single TiVo on that Belkin - by setting approved Wireless MACs to WDS Bridge with). Perhaps this isn't necessary after all :) Gotta try it ... this weekend.

[hitech_rednek]

As far as I know, there is no industry standard for WDS, so different brands may or may not work together. Best Buy has the Belkin router for $10AR this week.

Thanks c3 - my 2nd Belkin is on the way now. :D

[xtc1]

Here`s my problem
I need to do this: LAN-WRT 54g (AP)- WRT 54g (client)- Video recording device . (Unimo 204)
Tricky part is how to make recording device accessible in lan? I need that device will be visiable in LAN and that decive could see LAN too.
Would enyone to be so kind to explain me how to do it? I hope that explanation will be very simple to understand. (Step by step) Starting with LAN router IP(192.168.1.1) and will finish to the device IP Or if i must WDS then i need example too

[branley]

Sorry to cross post, but I am really stuck here. I posted this in the other thread about HME apps not working, but its definitely a result of the router bridging, so that's why I'm coming back to this thread as well.

"Ok, here is an update and it gets stranger by the minute.

To recap, my modem connects to Router A, and my living room tivo is wired to that router, along with my Core server.

In my bedroom, that tivo is wired to another Router, and the two routers are wirelessly bridged.

So, I ran a test this evening. I connected my laptop, running the HME samples, via ethernet to that router, which serves only as an access point. After a tivo reboot, HME apps worked from the laptop showed up on the Tivo. I then disconnected the ethernet to my laptop, and connected to the router via wifi. After a tivo reboot, the HME apps NO LONGER worked. I tried back again one more time with the ethernet and they worked.

Then I took my laptop out to the living room router, and connected it via ethernet, however, after a reboot, the living room tivo did NOT see the hme apps.

Any one have any clue what I should try now?"

[eibgrad]

Sorry to cross post, but I am really stuck here. I posted this in the other thread about HME apps not working, but its definitely a result of the router bridging, so that's why I'm coming back to this thread as well.

"Ok, here is an update and it gets stranger by the minute.

To recap, my modem connects to Router A, and my living room tivo is wired to that router, along with my Core server.

In my bedroom, that tivo is wired to another Router, and the two routers are wirelessly bridged.

So, I ran a test this evening. I connected my laptop, running the HME samples, via ethernet to that router, which serves only as an access point. After a tivo reboot, HME apps worked from the laptop showed up on the Tivo. I then disconnected the ethernet to my laptop, and connected to the router via wifi. After a tivo reboot, the HME apps NO LONGER worked. I tried back again one more time with the ethernet and they worked.

Then I took my laptop out to the living room router, and connected it via ethernet, however, after a reboot, the living room tivo did NOT see the hme apps.

Any one have any clue what I should try now?"

HME problems aside, does everything else work over wireless? Can you connect to Tivo, update the guide, etc., all while using wireless?

Could you provide some info on your wireless config, such as are you broadcasting the SSID? Using protected mode? 54-G only mode? Security enabled or disabled? etc.

Have you tried changing various wireless options to see if some parameter is the culprit? For example, when having ANY problems over wireless, I always disable security, it only adds to the confusion. I also specify parameters that make the config as simple and easy to connect as possible. So using my Belkin, for example, I'd specify SSID broadcasts enabled (simple name too, no spaces, no special chars, etc.), protected mode ON, 54-G Auto, NO frame bursting, no MAC filters, no IP filters, etc. Simple, simple, simple.

eibgrad

[branley]

HME problems aside, does everything else work over wireless? Can you connect to Tivo, update the guide, etc., all while using wireless?

Could you provide some info on your wireless config, such as are you broadcasting the SSID? Using protected mode? 54-G only mode? Security enabled or disabled?

I've been having this problem for several weeks now, since I put the belkins in bridged, and all during that time I've been transferring shows between tivos flawlessy. The guides are updating fine as well and I work from home 8hrs a day using the wifi network as well. No problems at all except the HME not working.

Security is off, SSID is broadcasting, protected mode is on, turbo is off, wireless mode is 54g-auto. I am using MAC address filtering for all devices, and all have been entered in.

Both tivos see each other, my desktop sees my laptop, the simulator sees the HME apps regardless of whether they run on the desktop or laptop.

If I isolate my laptop and either tivo behind my linksys router (the one I used to have before the belkins) then HME works.

[anotherlab]

Hi,

I'm just starting with Tivo and did it all in one shot including 802.11g networking. I just bought a 140 hour Tivo and a 40 hour Tivo and used the following networking gear:

Router: Linksys WRT54GS. I don't use the SpeedBooster adapters, but the GS has more memory and a faster processor than the WRT54G. I may install one of the 3rd party firmwares and boost the signal strength, but not right now.

Antenna: Linksys HGA7T. Replacement antennas for the WRT54GS that provide 7dbi gain, informal testing showed between 15% to 20% gain in signal strength. CompUsa has generic 9 dbi antennas, but I haven't heard anyone using them.

Ethernet adapter: Linksys USB200M, it seemed like a standard adapter for Tivo

802.11g Bridge: SMC SMC2870W. Unlike the Linksys gaming bridge, the SMC bridge supports WPA-TKIP. These units were a breeze to configure. I hooked them up to my notebook first and set the SSID and the WPA key. Then I hooked each up to the Tivos and they just worked.

Using NetStumbler, I can see 6 other access points from my house. I really wanted some security. SSID hiding, MAC filtering, and WEP provide very little protection. I checked one of those war driving sites and an open AP was listed about one street over from my house, that was a little too close for comfort.

Now I just have to figure out which codec I'll need to view the .tivo files that I have copied down to my PC....

[lloydjs]

I have a series 1 standalone (Sony SVR2000) with a TurboNet card from 9th Tree. I have been using the TurboNet card for a couple of years to make the daily call and it has been working like a charm. The Tivo is connected to a Lynksys router and the router is connected to a cable modem (broadband).

Here's the question:
I just purchased a wireless router (Lynksys WRT54G, 802.11g).
What I would like to do now is replace my old router with the new wireless router and still use the TurboNet card to make the daily call. I think I can replace TurboNet with AirNet, but to save money and to avoid the headaches of installing drivers etc., I would like to keep TurboNet and connect it to a wireless bridge.

Do you know a good inexpensive wireless bridge that will work with TurboNet and my new router???

[anotherlab]

Do you know a good inexpensive wireless bridge that will work with TurboNet and my new router???

I have been very happy with the SMC SMC2870W bridge. SMC just retired that model and a new one, the SMCWEBT-G, is supposed to be available this month. You can still get the SMC2870W from Amazon and few other resellers, but I imagine that supply will dry up.

As long as the TurboNet board works like a standard ethernet card, it should work just fine with a bridge. The bridge should be completely transparent to the TurboNet. As far as the TurboNet card is concerned, it will appear to be wired to the router.

Linksys sells a wireless 802.11g bridge that they call their gaming adapter. It's at the same price range (about $80) as the SMC2870W, but it does not support WPA encryption.

[c3]

The popular Belkin router works fine with WPA in the bridge mode. I have two in my setup , one as router, and one as AP/bridge. The glitch is that after the router is rebooted, you have to go to the menu and click "apply" again (just the router, not the AP). $40 or less at many stores.

[djlenoir]

Would this equipment work? I like the MIMO technology because of the range.

FA120 - USB 2.0 Ethernet Adapter
WGPS606 - Wireless Bridge (Supports MIMO)
WPN824 - Wireless Router (MIMO)

Not sure if the FA120 is supported (drivers) but if it is not, I will just go with the USB200M which should not be a problem. The above allows me to stick with all one brand, which is usually a good thing in the wireless world.

[c3]

FA120 works fine (I have three of them), but that's not part of the wireless equation.

[Kinko]

Hello,

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to say this or not, but here it goes =P

If you can get a WRT54G or WRT54GS (standard linksys G router) , you can turn it into a bridge or use WDS.

1) Buy one.
$50 @ circuitcity w/ rebate stuff
$60 @ the market of the wall

1a) Buy a usb network adapter.

2) Download custom firmware from sveasoft *can't post url , I don't have 5 posts* (free or 20dollar/year for their tailsman version, free one will do)

3) Install firmware

4) Do these settings:

Settings:
1) set internet type to disable
2) set ip and gateway
3) make sure you turn dhcp off if you alread have a dhcp server (other router)
4) go to advanced routing tab, click enable
5) go to wireless tab
6) put in a SSID (doesn't have to be the same as anything else)
7) go to security, and setup the same security as the host access point
8) go to wds tab, set manual, first one set lan, then enter mac address of the host ap
9) connect and you're good to go
10) If it doesn't work, go to security and disable the firewall and try again

Note: this may be incorrect, and I have only done it wrt54g to wrt54g


I haven't had much luck with the "bridge" mode (but WDS does the same thing), however, if you have multiple TiVos, you can use the WDS feature to save bandwidth.
eg:
Tivo 1 is wired to the WDS
tivo 2 is 802.11g to the WDS instead of the main router
Tivo -> tivo communication doesn't effect other wifi device -> home router

Kinko

[greg_burns]

If you can get a WRT54G or WRT54GS (standard linksys G router) , you can turn it into a bridge or use WDS.

I'll second that. :up: I've done it using Alchemy between WRT54G and WRT54GS. Linksys routers aren't always cheap and it can be a little scary avoiding making a brick, but it does work!

http://www.wrt54g.com/pages.php?p=firmware

[ashu]

You're perfectly welcome to say that (what gave you the impression you aren't) :D

Heck - the thread started out with a Linksys discussion - Bridge devices and those specific routers you mentioned, but was soon hijacked by the Belkin users - same hardware, less memory, so less extensive feature set in firmware as the Linksys!

BUT - shockingly cheaper - I spend $35 total on my 3 Belkins. And some people got theirs even cheaper.

AND I can use a variation of the same SveaSoft firmware (toned down) on it, if I choose (less memory and all that ...)

[Kinko]

Well, you never know.. =P

I've got 3 wrt54g atm, all redundantly connected with WDS. (1 for my gateway/NAT, 2 for my two tivos with usb200m linksys adapters).. i even have a 14dbi yagi antenna incase I ever need a long haul..

the Belkin looks like a good deal btw

[emwoods]

You're perfectly welcome to say that (what gave you the impression you aren't) :D

Heck - the thread started out with a Linksys discussion - Bridge devices and those specific routers you mentioned, but was soon hijacked by the Belkin users - same hardware, less memory, so less extensive feature set in firmware as the Linksys!

BUT - shockingly cheaper - I spend $35 total on my 3 Belkins. And some people got theirs even cheaper.

AND I can use a variation of the same SveaSoft firmware (toned down) on it, if I choose (less memory and all that ...)

Ashu, just making sure I understood your last post. If I remember correctly, your primary router is not a Belkin. Do you have a version of the SvesSoft firmware for your Belkins? I know a version was being worked on, but I did not think it was available yet.

Thanks,

E.

[ashu]

Primary - D-Link

Upgraded Belkin Firmware - not on mine. It does exist. A variant fo the sveasoft, by the same folks. Still in Alpha with a big YMMV, IIRC.The hardware is identical to the Linksys WRT... except for the smaller memory.

[Andrewp75]

I have the wireless setup as follows:

80 Hour unmodded 540 connected to a USB 200M and a WGA54G Game adapter being used as a wireless bridge

492 Hour Modified Toshiba RS-TX20 connected to a USB 200M and a WGA54G Game adapter being used as a wireless bridge

80 Hour unmodded 540 connected to a USB 200M and a WGA54G Game adapter being used as a wireless bridge

My router is a SRX MIMO Linksys WRTG54X with three SMA high gain 7dBi antennae.

Nothing is further than 30 feet away from each other.

I honestly dont see how I can get any better in the wireless setup, yet I can barely get a meduim transfer in realtime.

Does anyone know of any router settings that I might be able to configure to get things a little faster?

I have 64 bit wep and SSIDs broadcasting to all the adapters.

Thanks!

A

[c3]

I can barely get a meduim transfer in realtime.

TiVo-TiVo transfer or TiVo-PC transfer?

[Andrewp75]

Tivo to Tivo, Tivo to PC is even worse...

Please help...

A

[c3]

I would suggest hardwiring two TiVos through a switch and see what you get.

[Andrewp75]

Could you please further detail this process. I do not have a wired network availiable to me.

Thanks!

A

BTW, would any port forwarding or that type of thing help out the speed of MRV transfers?

[ashu]

Yeah - it could be your specific adapter/s.

Also, I trust you've cycled through a bunch of wireless channels already? Phones, microwaves and neighbors' networks are the major sources of interference in the 2.4GHz range.

Also - test with WEP disabled. it is possible that a particular router firmware implementation chokes on WEP, or is more optimized with 128 or 256 bit (if supported) WEP.

[ashu]

Could you please further detail this process. I do not have a wired network availiable to me.

Thanks!

A

BTW, would any port forwarding or that type of thing help out the speed of MRV transfers?

Wire two TiVos (preferably the only two that support USB 2.0 now - as the RS-TX20 is still running the old software with USB 1.1) to the same router. If it's physically not possible, then move one TiVo to the location of another, with a TV with two inputs. Be sure to read your manual for remote control code configuration, so your commands go to one tivo at a time.

Port forwarding won't help.

Can you post PC/PC transfer (non TiVo related) transfer speed benchmarks? MIMO should be mind-bogglingly fast in theory, unless your network is otherwise broken, being interfered with - or perhaps the hardware (being Alpha, as things stand) is just not stable at all?

<edit> I also just noticed your other two units are 540 - they DO have some kind of compromised USB implementation, and won't curently transfer at the same speeds as 240-series 2 units. But you should still see same-as-wired-pair-of-540s speeds, considering how fast MIMO supposedly is. Hence the PC-to-PC benchmark suggestion.

[ashu]

The fact that the firmware on these and Linksys' routers is upgradeable set me thiking.

I've long wondered whether it might be possible to modify the firmware on a wireless bridge to directly do some of the java stuff that galleon does. Or perhaps some decoding/transfer related stuff to specifically speed TiVo MRV/TTG up a bit? Or specific adapters of this sort that could help with speeds? Would there be any advantage to this? Or is this idea completely out of left field?

[bossku69]

Thats pretty cool, nice set up. but really, what could you be recording with all that space? just kind of curious :confused:

[ashu]

Thats pretty cool, nice set up. but really, what could you be recording with all that space? just kind of curious :confused:

Huh? Who? What? Where? Whom? (sorry, not sure who your question is directed at.)

[Andrewp75]

Thats pretty cool, nice set up. but really, what could you be recording with all that space? just kind of curious :confused:


If you were ferrring to me, it cause I want to record everything at High or Best quality in order to burn good looking DVD's.

A

[anotherlab]

Nothing is further than 30 feet away from each other

30 feet could mean a clear signal or it could mean almost none. How many walls separate your wireless devices? Going through walls and floors will scatter your wireless signal.

Do you have any appliances between any of the wireless bridges and/or router? I went crazy trying to resolve periodic signal losses with a Linksys USB adapter on my PC. My washer and dryer are between that PC (and a Tivo) and the router. When the dryer was running, the motor created enough signal interference that the USB adapter could not stay locked on my router. The Tivo with it's SMC bridge did not that problem.


Can you log directly into the WGA54G adapters and check their statuses? I opted for the SMC bridges over Linksys (SMC supports WPA-PSK) and it's easy to check their signal strength by logging directly into the bridges.

[Moebius]

30 feet could mean a clear signal or it could mean almost none. How many walls separate your wireless devices? Going through walls and floors will scatter your wireless signal.

Do you have any appliances between any of the wireless bridges and/or router? I went crazy trying to resolve periodic signal losses with a Linksys USB adapter on my PC. My washer and dryer are between that PC (and a Tivo) and the router. When the dryer was running, the motor created enough signal interference that the USB adapter could not stay locked on my router. The Tivo with it's SMC bridge did not that problem.


Can you log directly into the WGA54G adapters and check their statuses? I opted for the SMC bridges over Linksys (SMC supports WPA-PSK) and it's easy to check their signal strength by logging directly into the bridges.

Appliances and cordless phones can definately cause problems with transfers, even when you're dealing with a short distance like 30 feet. We had a similar problem setting up our office at work for wireless. Most conference rooms were fine, but one, which was actually closest to the AP had trouble due to a small break room with a microwave. Small traffic stuff like email and surfing were fine, but any large traffic like file transfers or whiteboard applications would crap out. We eventually had to add another AP on the other side of the room.

[Andrewp75]

Has anyone else notcied that the linksys wireless game adapters have slowed to a crawl since 7.2?

Thanks!

A

[c3]

TiVo shouldn't know anything about the wireless game adapter. It thinks it's attached to a wired network.

[Andrewp75]

Well something somewhere has cut the speed of my transfers in half since 7.2.....

[anotherlab]

How are you measuring the change in speed? Is it TiVo to TiVo transfers, TiVo updating it's own data, or TiVo to PC speed? I haven't noticed any real speed differences since going to 7.2.

[Andrewp75]

It would be Tivo to Tivo and Tivo to PC. Both are about half of what they were...

A

[bmb]

Looks like a lot of you have had luck with the WGA54G. I can't seem to get MRV working through my WGA54G and would love to know what I'm doing wrong. I have the latest Linksys firmware on both the gaming adapter and my wireless router. I posted the below in the Help Center forum but haven't received a response there (I would post the URL, but the system won't let me post a URL since I have less than 5 posts)....

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
B


Hi,

I am new to the forums, but from reading various threads (including the "ultimate wireless network" thread) I thought I would be able to hook up one of my Tivos with a Linksys WGA54G gaming adapter, but I can't seem to get Multiple Room Viewing to work.

Both Tivos are Series 2. Tivo 'A' has a service number of 130, has the Linksys USB100M ethernet adapter hard wired directly to a Linksys WRT54GX wireless g router.

Tivo 'B' has a service number of 540, has a Linksys USB200M (version 1) ethernet adapter hard wired to a Linksys WGA54G Gaming Adapter which then communicates wirelessly to the WRT54GX router mentioned above.

Both Tivos have 7.2 software.

The problem: Tivo 'B' can connect to the Tivo service and download updates just fine with the above setup, can connect to the Best Buy music, can see Tivo 'A' and all the shows, but can NOT transfer any shows from Tivo A. It just states a message saying something like it could not transfer the show from Tivo 'A' because it is no longer available.

Tivo 'A' on the other hand cannot even see Tivo 'B.'

If I take the gaming adapter out of the picture and run Tivo B directly to the router hard wired, MRV works just fine and both Tivos see each other as well.

So what's going on here? I thought people were having great success using the above setup (with WGA54G)? Is this something that broke with the new 7.2 software (I just purchased the above Linksys setup, so not sure if it would have worked with the 7.1)?

Thanks,
BMB

[Andrewp75]

Are you running any HME apps such as Gaellon? If so stop them from running for now. Also, try the following:

Unplug the USB cable from Tivo B and the power cable from the WGA54G

then go to network setup and run a test setup or whatever it is called, it should work.

This will esentially reset the game adapter and may solve some issues. Also try to maybe have Tivo A hooked up to another game adpater rather than directly to the router.

Let me know if any of this helps. You may also want to try to reboot each Tivo.

A

[bmb]

I don't even know what HME stands for, so I'm not running it (no Gaellon either). I have tried rebooting each Tivo multiple times to no avail. I have also already tried unplugging the ethernet adapter and power cycled the game adapter multiple times.

Like I said, the basic network connection works fine... I can get data downloads, etc., I just can't use MRV. I'm stumped as to why everything transmits fine through the game adapter except MRV.

Is this kind of stuff supported through Tivo? Can I call them and say "hey, MRV isn't working through a wireless bridge?"

-B

[bmb]

Just spoke with Tivo, and as expected, they said they would not support a wireless bridge and directed me to tivocommunity.

This drives me crazy that all of you have a WGA54G working with MRV, but yet I can't seem to get a similar setup working. I'm left wondering if I just have an incorrect setting on the gaming adapter, found a bug between 130 and 540 units, or something else all together.

-B

[ljwhite]

I have a pioneer DVR-810H and have developed an interest in wireless network.

I am electronically challanged so please keep it simple.

What do I need to buy to create a wireless network so I can transfer recorded golf on my TIVO to my PC and burn them on a CD?

TIVO informed me that I have the latest software installed for a wireless network but I don't have the slightest idea what to buy to create one.

Do I have to buy something for my PC and something for my Pioneer? Do I have to buy software to do the burning of the shows to the CD for my PC?

The main reason I am trying to do this is when I tried to burn a one hour golf show on a CD using TIVO in told me it would take 3 disks and I thought that
was crazy...

I appreciate any help you guys might give me...

[azitnay]

If you don't have a wireless broadband router yet, you'll need one of those.

You'll also need a wireless adapter for the TiVo. http://www.tivo.com/adapters/ lists supported adapters, and you'll find recommendations for which to get all over these forums.

You talk about burning CD's, but I assume you mean DVD's... I don't know what DVD burning software you currently have, but Sonic MyDVD 6.1 is the only officially-supported way to burn .TiVo files to DVD. Other programs such as NeroVision have been reported to work, however.

Also, there's no way a show that's actually only an hour long should take up 3 DVD's when burned from your Pioneer. Even at best quality, I believe it can still fit an hour on one DVD.

Drew

[bmb]

This drives me crazy that all of you have a WGA54G working with MRV, but yet I can't seem to get a similar setup working. -B

I found some interesting behavior last night, hoping some network guru might be able to explain it. Posted in another thread...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3250216#post3250216

[Andrewp75]

BMB,

Go to Best Buy or whatever your local store is and buy another WGA54G. Plug Tivo A (the one connected directly to the router) into that instead. It should work. I have a feeling it is a problem with Tivo A being plugge into the router. If it doesnt work, return it for a full refund (within 30 days of course ;))

A

[bmb]

BMB,
Go to Best Buy or whatever your local store is and buy another WGA54G. Plug Tivo A (the one connected directly to the router) into that instead. A

A, thanks for your suggestions. The reason I had Tivo B into a WGA54G in the first place was because I was trying to get better transfer speeds then having a wireless adapter plugged directly into B. Putting a WGA54G on Tivo A simply adds cost and slows things down further since now you have two devices on the wireless waves. I think it is just time to go back to a wireless adapter on B and deal with the 802.11b speeds.

-B

[Andrewp75]

There are some G adpaters that work with Tivo, go to there website and check out the list...

A

[bmb]

Yeah, but from what I've read on these forums, the wireless g adapters don't perform any better (and in some cases worse) then the b adapters because the linux drivers are "immature." Supposedly the G adapters were just added because they are more widely available in certain stores, not because of speed improvements in the Tivo implementation.

[tivogurl]

Is it possible to set up these networks while having WPA/WPA2 enabled? The WDS solutions described appear to preclude WPA, as WDS doesn't support it, and we all know WEP is junk. I'd really like to make my network as secure as possible e.g. WPA2 enabled, SSID broadcasting turned off, etc.

[c3]

I've been running bridged Belkins with WPA.

[ashu]

yup. In fact the Belkins' WPA seems a mite more stable than that on the linksys units running WDS. Be warned, however, that new versions (firmware) of the Belkin 7230-4 are NO LONGER capable fo this cool WDS feature ... at least without being flashed (if at all!). Hit up Sveasoft for more info ... I haven't checked into this in weeks.

[c3]

The latest single-antenna Belkin version 4000 has different hardware, so it's not just a firmware change.

[greg_burns]

yup. In fact the Belkins' WPA seems a mite more stable than that on the linksys units running WDS.

I wonder if that is my trouble. I have to reset my cable modem (not router) every couple days. This is my second modem from comcast, but it doesn't behave any better. Not sure how my Linksys WDS setup would mess up my cable modem upstream, but now you got me thinking. Any links to people complaint's about stabilty with Linksys units running WDS?

[emwoods]

yup. In fact the Belkins' WPA seems a mite more stable than that on the linksys units running WDS. Be warned, however, that new versions (firmware) of the Belkin 7230-4 are NO LONGER capable fo this cool WDS feature ... at least without being flashed (if at all!). Hit up Sveasoft for more info ... I haven't checked into this in weeks.


SVEASoft is about to finally release a Talisman version that supports Belkin F5D7230-4 routers. Probably will be released this weeks. I will post a separate thread with details I have been able to glean from the site. $20 for the firmware update. Basically, most of the cool features that the Linksys users using the Talisman firmware have had for some time.

[tivogurl]

The thing I find odd is that these routers, in bridge mode, don't act just like a standard wireless NIC as one might find in, oh, most any PC on the planet. If they did, then bridging with WPA2 turned on would Just Work, with any router used as your AP not just a same-brand one. Practically plug and play. Instead they goof things up and come up with a bridge mode that's incompatible with a standard wireless AP. Anybody know why they do that?

[c3]

The thing I find odd is that these routers, in bridge mode, don't act just like a standard wireless NIC as one might find in, oh, most any PC on the planet.

They're NOT supposed to be same. A wireless client is one device with one IP address. A bridge is like a virtual cable. You can have multiple devices at both ends of that cable, and all devices are on the same subnet.

[tivogurl]

They're NOT supposed to be same. A wireless client is one device with one IP address. A bridge is like a virtual cable. You can have multiple devices at both ends of that cable, and all devices are on the same subnet.
If WPA can't work with multiple devices using the same WPA channel, why don't wireless bridges implicitly designed for one device (game adapters) work just like a NIC? One Tivo wired to one bridge should be indistinguishable from a PC with a wireless card, and should allow the full range of wireless security (WPA2 enabled, SSID broadcast from the AP is off, etc) to be used with any brand of AP. Yet they don't, and I don't understand why such transparency isn't available. There is no obvious technical reason for it.

Why a "same subnet" requirement? A classic bridge is between incompatible technologies, like ethernet and token ring, so they can't by definition be on the same subnet.

From the point of view of the AP, how is a router with NAT turned on distinguishable from one device with one IP address? If for some reason WPA is so stupidly broken that we must limit ourselves in that way, this case should solve that problem.

[c3]

This has nothing to do with WPA. Client and WDS/bridge are two different modes of operation. If a product chooses not to implement WPA with WDS, it's that specific product's problem. I've been using WPA with WDS for many months with Belkin factory firmware -- no hacking required.

(A+B+C) -- bridge -- wireless -- bridge -- (D+E+F)

Logically, all 6 devices A to F are on the same subnet. Each device can talk to any other device. If you use router with NAT, you essentially create a one-way street.

There are routers with client mode which behave like what you're asking. I don't have personal experience with them.

[Stormspace]

If WPA can't work with multiple devices using the same WPA channel, why don't wireless bridges implicitly designed for one device (game adapters) work just like a NIC? One Tivo wired to one bridge should be indistinguishable from a PC with a wireless card, and should allow the full range of wireless security (WPA2 enabled, SSID broadcast from the AP is off, etc) to be used with any brand of AP. Yet they don't, and I don't understand why such transparency isn't available. There is no obvious technical reason for it.

There are wireless devices that mimic this type of behavior. Wireless game adapters come to mind here. They sit as a pipe through which to route network traffic for one wired device. Most have to be attached to a PC to be configured if anything other than the defult settings are used. WEP, WPA, SSID, etc.

The ones I am familiar with will also detect the MAC of the wired NIC and replicate that MAC on the wireless network as well. For a TiVo you'd have to first have the usb to cat5 ethernet adapter. Game adapters are expensive however and I've seen wireless bridges that are much cheaper and allow you to hook up your entire AV system, not just one device.

[bdinmd]

Has anyone else notcied that the linksys wireless game adapters have slowed to a crawl since 7.2?

Thanks!

A
I have noticed that since 7.2 my setup (like yours / w linksys game adapters) has had issues. My internal networked tivos still talk to each other but the tivos hang on 'setting clock' when trying to talk to the tivo network. Any thoughts?

[popechild]

I've had a tivo network up and running for a while using the Belkin 7231-4's. I've got one hardlined to my desktop, which is also connected to my cable modem and being used as my router.

Then I've got two more 7231-4's... one at each Tivo in the house. They're setup as wireless bridges, as described in this thread among other places. I've also got a laptop with wireless card that "roams" from AP to AP as I move throughout the house in order to keep a strong connection.

Anyway, I've been using it without any encryption because I'm having trouble figuring out how to "turn the encryption on" and thought you guys could help. I can go into the router settings (at 192.168.2.1 for me) using my desktop or laptop and setup encryption for the router there. Then I can change the settings on my laptop to use the same network key and get internet service through the laptop - but I think it's only because it's finding and using the actual router, not going through the other APs.

Neither of the tivos can connect, and if I hardline the laptop to one of those two APs/bridges and take out the wireless card, I can't get a connection through the laptop as well. I assume this is because the 2 "bridges" are not configured to use the encryption key, but I can't figure out for the life of me how to get into the configuration menus of those bridges to set them up to use the encryption key. The only menu I can seem to get to is the one at 192.168.2.1 (that's set up as a router). I *think* when I set it all up I used 192.168.2.2 and 2.3 for the network addresses of the two bridges, but I don't really know enough about all this to know how to get to those to update their configurations now that they've been setup as bridges.

Can anybody help me figure out how I can enable the encryption across my network as it's setup now?

Thanks!

[Stormspace]

You have to set up the wireless encyption on all your devices(bridges and routers). I'd suggest working backwards from the bridges then doing the router last.

[c3]

I've also got a laptop with wireless card that "roams" from AP to AP as I move throughout the house in order to keep a strong connection.

I don't remember if I have tried it without encryption, but I have found that wireless roaming does NOT work well with my setup (WDS with WPA). It does not fail 100% of the time, but it usually does not work, so I just disable wireless clients on the AP.

[Gunnyman]

Well after fighting with Motorola Wireless G Bridges (ugg) for a week I FINALLY have a UWN of my own.
Here's my current setup at each TiVo:
1) Netgear FA120 30 bucks but available cheaper mailorder
2) Belkin Wireless G Router F5D7230-4 in BRIDGE MODE 30 bucks at Circuit City

The Belkin routers are bridged to a Belkin 7130 WAP which is hardwired into a Linksys WRT54G.

Thanks to Ashu and others who haved helped me figure this all out.

[popechild]

You have to set up the wireless encyption on all your devices(bridges and routers). I'd suggest working backwards from the bridges then doing the router last.

That's where I'm having the problem. I can't figure out how to get into the configuration settings on the bridges (even without encryption setup on the router). Can you give me advice on how to do this?

FWIW c3, I have never had a problem using the roaming laptop and having the bridges act as APs, but then again, I've never tried it yet with encryption set up.

[llungster]

I've read most of this thread over the last few weeks and wanted to share what I did to get my Series 2 TiVo on a G network with WPA encryption.

I went with an SMC bridge unit SMCWEBT-G for $65 with free shipping. This was the cheapest bridge or game adapter I could find at the time that would support WPA. The unit itself is pretty flexible, able to act as a bridge, a WAP or a wireless repeater. The config looks like this:


TiVo -- linksys USB200M -- SMCWEBT-G -- (802.11g WPA) -- Netgear WGR614 router

To setup the SMC bridge, I hooked up my PC directly to the unit. I changed the PC's IP address to 192.168.2.20 (an address on the bridge's default subnet). The bridge has a web interface at 192.168.2.25. I enter this interface via my web browser and select my mode of operation (ethernet client), my security settings (WPA and key), change the admin password, change the unit's default IP address to match the subnet of my Netgear router, scan for SSIDs and select mine for use. The Netgear router is at 192.168.1.x so I move the SMC to 192.168.1.25 (from 192.168.2.25). Back on the PC, I ditch the static IP address and re-enable DHCP, and that's it. The PC now talks to my network through the bridge. I disconnect the bridge, put the PC back on its regular wired network. The bridge and linksys USB200M replace my old Linksys WUSB11 (11b, WEP). And that's pretty much it.

Transfer time is about real-time for " best quality" video content meaning a 30 minute program will transfer in about 30 minutes. The target PC is on wired ethernet.

Overall, I'm very happy with the results. The cost was very reasonable. The setup was easy. Lots of thanks for many on this thread for making this possible.

[Stormspace]

That's where I'm having the problem. I can't figure out how to get into the configuration settings on the bridges (even without encryption setup on the router). Can you give me advice on how to do this?

FWIW c3, I have never had a problem using the roaming laptop and having the bridges act as APs, but then again, I've never tried it yet with encryption set up.

Each bridge on your network should have a web interface. The first step is putting the bridge on the same subnet as your router. If your router is 192.168.1.1 then setting your bridge to 192.168.1.xxx where xxx is the next number after the last number your dhcp server will assign. In my case the last IP assigned on the router is 192.168.1.199 so my static devices start at 192.168.1.200.

You may have to connect directly to the bridge to change this. Once it's on the same subnet (the third octet, ie 192.168.xxx.1) you can connect it to your router and web into it to finish the configuration, WPA, etc. In my experience you have to do this from the last device in the line because once WPA, WEP, or other security is set up you will not be able to connect to that device until the next closer device is configured, which is why I said to work back from your bridge.

The absolute expert on wireless though is Ashu. You can PM him or post to him in this thread.

[llungster]

That's where I'm having the problem. I can't figure out how to get into the configuration settings on the bridges (even without encryption setup on the router). Can you give me advice on how to do this?

FWIW c3, I have never had a problem using the roaming laptop and having the bridges act as APs, but then again, I've never tried it yet with encryption set up.

Back when you did your initial setup of the Belkins, you probably had to set up the two units with their respective IP addresses - each one has an address that opens up their web interface via a browser. If you don't recall what those addresses are, you may have to go back to this thread, find the article that provided the example of how to set it up and see if the addresses given are what you used. Once you have those addresses handy, you type them into your web browser and hopefully, it'll open up the respective Belkins. Chances are, you'll also need the admin password for the router.

Another possibility is to dig up the user's manual for the Belkin and try the default IP address for each unit. If for some reason, you didn't have to change it when you first did the installation, then this might open one of the units.

You may have to hardwire your PC to the router to do the config work (?).

If all else fails, all routers have a way to be reset to the factory default via some reset switch. Usually it involves holding the button in for a certain amount of time. When you do this, you lose all configurations but this lets you hook up your PC to the router and enter the default IP address of the unit (from the user's manual) and re-program it from scratch. Useful when all else fails.

good luck

[DaddyBC]

I started the ball rolling on the use of Belkin routers some months ago. I noticed at the time that the Belkin F5D7230-4 and F5F7231-4 routers support WDS (Wireless Distribution System), ............eibgrad


It appears the newer F5D7230-4 Ver 4001 do not support Bridging. :(
Since they are faily cheap does anyone know of a way to use these the way you suggest?

[c3]

Many stores still have the older versions 200x and 300x. I prefer 200x with its switching power supply. 300x has analog AC adaptor.

[eibgrad]

It appears the newer F5D7230-4 Ver 4001 do not support Bridging. :(
Since they are faily cheap does anyone know of a way to use these the way you suggest?

News to me, I have many of these and one F5D7231-4 as well, all support WDS. But if Ashu and others are claiming more recent units don't support WDS, I'll take their word for it.

Btw, I noticed several ppl claiming support for WPA over WDS. I'd love to get this working myself, but have never been able to do so. Only WEP works for me. I'm running firmware 4.05.03 on ALL my F5D7231-4 and F5D7230-4 APs, tried changing various settings (like re-enabling SSID, turning frame bursting off, protected mode ON, etc.), nothing seems to work. I just can't get these APs to communicate in WPA mode. Wish I could figure out the secret.

eibgrad

[c3]

FWIW, these are my settings: 54G-only, SSID off, protected off, frame bursting mode, WPA-PSK, AES. One setup has one 7231-4 v.1102 and one 7230-4 v.2000. That one has been up since 9/13, based on the system log. Another setup has two 7230-4 v.200x. All of them have firmware 4.05.03.

[eibgrad]

FWIW, these are my settings: 54G-only, SSID off, protected off, frame bursting mode, WPA-PSK, AES. One setup has one 7231-4 v.1102 and one 7230-4 v.2000. That one has been up since 9/13, based on the system log. Another setup has two 7230-4 v.200x. All of them have firmware 4.05.03.

Hmm, that's darn close to my config, not sure which hardware versions I have, I'll have to look into that. That aside, the only difference is I tried using TKIP, the default. I suppose I could try using AES. Anyone else using TKIP successfully w/ WDS enabled?

[MickeS]

llungster, thanks for your concise and informative step-by-step description of your setup and your gear. I think I might try and go and duplicate it...

I'm currently getting about real-time for medium quality recordings, which have been fine because I have only used it for TTG. But now with the ability to transfer shows BACK to the Tivo for viewing, this has proven inadequate...

/Mike

[eibgrad]

Hmm, that's darn close to my config, not sure which hardware versions I have, I'll have to look into that. That aside, the only difference is I tried using TKIP, the default. I suppose I could try using AES. Anyone else using TKIP successfully w/ WDS enabled?

Oh well, I just can't get this to work (WPA over WDS). I tried TKIP and AES, tried complex keys and simple keys, rebooting both APs, etc., never works. Just don't know what the problem is. Maybe sometime in the future someone will identify why it works for some people and not others.

Btw, for the record, I have one 7231-4 v.1102 and one 7230-4 v.2000 as well (both in AP mode), the same as c3's setup. The only possible difference I can see at this point between me and c3 is perhaps one of his units is in router mode.

eibgrad

[c3]

Yes, one as router and one as AP.

[llungster]

llungster, thanks for your concise and informative step-by-step description of your setup and your gear. I think I might try and go and duplicate it...

I'm currently getting about real-time for medium quality recordings, which have been fine because I have only used it for TTG. But now with the ability to transfer shows BACK to the Tivo for viewing, this has proven inadequate...

/Mike

Glad to help Mike. FWIW, the SMC bridge isn't popular like Netgear or Linksys so it's not readily available. I can't post where I got it since the forum won't ket me post URLs until I have more posts under my belt (security feature). But you should be able to search for it with the regular shopping sites. The place I got mine from is currently out of stock; too bad 'cause I was thinking of getting another one for my HTPC.

[vlxjim]

Well it's been some time sense I,ve been on this post. I do have some good news I just saved a bunch of money by switching to ****. But I did switch out my wireless game adapters to the Linksys WET54GS5 Bridge. What a big differance much more stable and faster transfer speeds. 1 hour shows transfer is less than 30 mins in best quality. :)

[bmb]

All, you may want to check out this thread to avoid any problems:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3436585#post3436585

[juanian]

Many stores still have the older versions 200x and 300x. I prefer 200x with its switching power supply. 300x has analog AC adaptor.So in the end, which is better - a v200x (with a switching power supply) or a v300x (with the increased range)?

I just found some of the older Belkins at a local Best Buy. They had one v2002 and two v3001. I bought a v2002 and a v3001. Mistake?

One other question: If I have a Linksys WRT54G router doing NAT, and I hook up the two Belkins in WDS mode, will they interfere with the wireless signal from the Linksys (for use by other wireless devices in the house, like a "roaming laptop")? Should I position the first 'wired' Belkin away from the Linksys, or does it matter? (Although I need to re-read the posts in various threads, I assume I want to choose one channel for the Linksys (like 11) and a different channel for the Belkins (like 1 or 6).)

Thanks

[Rallyman]

First off, let me say thanks to everyone that has posted info in this thread...what a gold mine. Special thanks to eibgrad for the layout of his network and to ashu for linking it in his sig :)

I have the same equipment that eibgrad described but its not working for me. I believe that the problem is I have ver. 4001 of the Belkin routers. Looking around on the Belkin web site I found this (http://www.belkin.com/support/kb/kb.asp?a=2814). That menu option is not available on either of my ver. 4001 Belkin routers. So I have to assume that wireless bridging is no longer supported.

Also note on that Belkin page is an option to "upgrade" your router to support wireless bridging. Essentially its firmware ver. 3.00.05. Does anyone think that this will actually work, or will the router spit out the "upgrade"?( I vote it'll spit it out) I've already returned both of my Belkins or I'd at least try on one. I'd be willing to go out and buy another one if there seems to be a consensus that it might work.

Thoughts?

( Sorry if this has already been discussed, I did try to read all posts, but this is a huge thread.)

Rallyman

[c3]

I believe that the problem is I have ver. 4001 of the Belkin routers.

400x does NOT support WDS. You need 200x or 300x. The "upgrade" is for much older firmware.

[Resist]

Could I just hook up a D-Link DWL-G122 Wireless G USB Adapter to my Series 2 Tivo?

[Resist]

Okay I just hooked up my Tivo via a Linksys USB Network adapter and my XBox Microsoft wireless game adapter. To my surprise it works!

What I really want to do is us the D-Link USB wireless adapter instead as then I won't have to have another item plugged in for power.

[Resist]

Darn, my D-Link USB wirelesss adapter is version B1 and only A2 works with my Tivo. At least it works with my computer.

[azitnay]

Besides that, using a wireless adapter is not the topic of this thread. This thread is about achieving wired-esque speeds via wireless (using wired adapters and wireless bridges).

Drew

[Resist]

Sorry

[juanian]

Besides that, using a wireless adapter is not the topic of this thread. This thread is about achieving wired-esque speeds via wireless (using wired adapters and wireless bridges).

DrewI hope that my questions are on-topic, since they do relate to using Belkin 7230's in WDS mode (but speed was not the main goal of my requests - just getting the best to do what I needed to do, so . . .). :(

[PhantomDilbert]

Wow I checked out for a 1/2 year and when I come back I noticed all this cool stuff now! Man I have a lot of catching up to do! So I'm trying to figure out which way to network my TiVo.

Currently it is sony svr-3000 ---> wireless usb ---> linksys w54g --->cable modem

I'm thinking of going w/ the bridge option since I'm planning to utilize the tivo for streaming home movies and such. Has anyone had much luck or advice on setting up as follows:


sony svr-3000 ---> usb200 --->buffalo WHR-HP-G54 bridge ---> buffalo WHR-HP-G54 router

specs here:
http://www.buffalotech.com/products/product-detail.php?productid=115&categoryid=6

Then I think I accomplish the following:
-increased bandwidth
-available ports at my entertainment system for future devices
-can finally upgrade everything to 802.11g
-can use wpa

questions:
a) thoughts on the setup? Anyone have experience w/ Buffalo line?
b) what about MIMO wireless? Anyone actually build something w/ transfer rates approaching 100mbps w/ other lower speed devices?

thanks.

[azitnay]

I hope that my questions are on-topic, since they do relate to using Belkin 7230's in WDS mode (but speed was not the main goal of my requests - just getting the best to do what I needed to do, so . . .). :(

Certainly sounds on-topic to me.

Drew

[ashu]

So in the end, which is better - a v200x (with a switching power supply) or a v300x (with the increased range)?

I just found some of the older Belkins at a local Best Buy. They had one v2002 and two v3001. I bought a v2002 and a v3001. Mistake?

One other question: If I have a Linksys WRT54G router doing NAT, and I hook up the two Belkins in WDS mode, will they interfere with the wireless signal from the Linksys (for use by other wireless devices in the house, like a "roaming laptop")? Should I position the first 'wired' Belkin away from the Linksys, or does it matter? (Although I need to re-read the posts in various threads, I assume I want to choose one channel for the Linksys (like 11) and a different channel for the Belkins (like 1 or 6).)

Thanks

You re-read correctly. Different channels.

As to your 2002 vs 3001 questio - no clue. I have one v1444 and three v2001s.

[juanian]

You re-read correctly. Different channels.

As to your 2002 vs 3001 questio - no clue. I have one v1444 and three v2001s.Thanks - I think today is the day I'll have a chance to hook these up.

I'm assuming the router will be strong enough to override the interference I get from my neighbor (which totally knocks my computer off of my wireless network on occasion). I've tried different channels, no help. My wireless bridge will be more line-of-site, so I've got my fingers crossed!

[Resist]

The Microsoft XBox wireless game adapter also works!

Makes me wonder if the new XBox 360 wireless game adapter will also work. It doesn't need a power outlet, uses only the USB port and is very small.

[eibgrad]

For those, like myself, not able to get bridging + WPA to work w/ the F5D7230-4/F5D7231-4 routers, I did a little searching and found the following:

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13718146?hilite=belkin+f5d7130+firmware

Quoting ziddey (6 messages into post), "You can't do wpa with that thing unless you make it so it's bridge only no clients."

Hmm..., interesting. As it happens, I have ONE client, which connects to my F5D7231-4 in AP mode (patched to my DI-624 router). I'm wondering if anyone else can confirm this. I plan to try disabling my client and check myself. Just wondering if all those having success w/ bridging + WPA are indeed "clientless".

eibgrad

[c3]

router: WDS/WPA and wireless clients enabled
AP: WDS/WPA and wireless clients disabled

I disabled wireless clients on the AP so that my laptop can connect reliably to the router. I was hoping to use the AP as a repeater, but most of the time it didn't work.

[RaptorXXX]

My current configuration is:

80 Hr TiVo 1 - wusb11 1 - BEFW11S4
80 Hr TiVo 2 - wusb11 2 - same BEFW11S4

BEFW11S4 is in office and connected to DSL. TiVo 1 is in living room and TiVo 2 is in bedroom and both TiVo's are wirelessly connected via wusb11's. My limitations, currently, are WEP encryption only and non-G transfer speeds since I use TiVo2Go. I currently do not broadcast SSID and I utilize MAC filtering so I know enough only to be dangerous.

My issue is that I have 3 ea WRT54GS's, 2 ea USB200M's, and associated wireless G cards for my laptops, all sitting in a Best Buy bag looking to be setup and configured. The USB200M's are the correct version (orange CD's visible in contents listing on box) and the WRT54GS' are all version 4's (not 5's) so I believe I have the correct hardware to complete this project. I want to wirelessly configure my TiVo's to the WRT connected to my DLS line utilizing WPA.

I have reviewed post 97 and am wondering if this will work for my setup. I am wondering if I should bridge the two TiVo WRT's or should I do the Alchemy route of client/server? I've read posts on the differences but have not grasped the concepts yet. IF I went the Alchemy route, would I need to flash all three WRT's?

Any assistance or references to helpful links would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks In Advance

[eibgrad]

My current configuration is:

80 Hr TiVo 1 - wusb11 1 - BEFW11S4
80 Hr TiVo 2 - wusb11 2 - same BEFW11S4

BEFW11S4 is in office and connected to DSL. TiVo 1 is in living room and TiVo 2 is in bedroom and both TiVo's are wirelessly connected via wusb11's. My limitations, currently, are WEP encryption only and non-G transfer speeds since I use TiVo2Go. I currently do not broadcast SSID and I utilize MAC filtering so I know enough only to be dangerous.

My issue is that I have 3 ea WRT54GS's, 2 ea USB200M's, and associated wireless G cards for my laptops, all sitting in a Best Buy bag looking to be setup and configured. The USB200M's are the correct version (orange CD's visible in contents listing on box) and the WRT54GS' are all version 4's (not 5's) so I believe I have the correct hardware to complete this project. I want to wirelessly configure my TiVo's to the WRT connected to my DLS line utilizing WPA.

I have reviewed post 97 and am wondering if this will work for my setup. I am wondering if I should bridge the two TiVo WRT's or should I do the Alchemy route of client/server? I've read posts on the differences but have not grasped the concepts yet. IF I went the Alchemy route, would I need to flash all three WRT's?

Any assistance or references to helpful links would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks In Advance

My experience is ALL Belkin, but the concepts are the same regardless of brand.

I assume these WRT54GS units are routers that support bridging (i.e., WDS). All we're doing with these bridges is substituting your current setup, which uses client-based USB wireless adapters, with these bridges via standard USB ethernet adapters (USB200M). By doing so, it simply pushes the wireless configuration OUTSIDE the Tivo, and thus eliminating compatibility issues. The only compatibility issue for Tivo remains ethernet adapters, which is trivial (USB200M is supported, so is my D-Link DUB-E100, among others).

THAT'S IT! That's all we're doing. Once the wireless configuration is pushed out to the bridges, it's just standard configuration issues. The Tivo's are ignorant of any wireless issues, as far as the Tivo's are concerned, they're connected via *wire* and should be configured as such. So all you do now is configure your bridges so they can communicate with your third wireless router (WRT54GS). I presume this is replacing your current BEFW11S4 802.11b router.

At this point, it could vary slightly by brand. Some routers can only be configured as a router OR wireless bridge, not both. For these types, you'd have to configure the third router (WRT54GS in your case) as another bridge, then patch over LAN ports to your existing BEFW11S4 (might make sense to disable the BEFW11S4 wireless at that point if you intend to go ALL 802.11g). IOW, the third WRT54GS is merely a drop-point for other bridges and other 802.11g clients to the BEFW11S4.

In other cases, the third router can be configured as a router AND bridged. In that case, you'd simply replace your existing BEFW11S4 w/ the new WRT54GS router and you're done.

I'm offering both possibilities simply because I don't know the capabilities of the WRT54GS router. You'll have to determine that for yourself.

Believe me, once you set it up and see it in action, you'll look back on it and realize it was a lot harder and more complicated to explain than it actually is in action. The biggest leap people have to overcome is understanding that all we're doing is pushing the wireless issues OUTSIDE the Tivo. Once that's done, it's straight forward wireless configuration issues, only we're using bridges and not client-based adapters like the wusb11.

eibgrad

[RaptorXXX]

Eibgrad, thanks for the input. I am now associating WDS with bridging, which I did not understand previously. I do understand that I am pushing the wireless issues outside of the TiVo but thanks for mentioning it. I know that there are WRT experts that should chime in soon. My questions involve how to actually bridge the WRT's utilizing WPA and whether I need to do it via the Alchemy route. In the meantime, I'm trying to research this myself as well.

Thanks Again