Success Adding (and replacing) drives to Pioneer TiVo/DVD

[tivoupgrade]

Here's an update on the Pioneer DVR upgrade movement...

Success with both the addition and replacement of drives in both the Pioneer DVR-57H and Pioneer DVR-810H* units.

Here's the scoop:

1) regardless of whether you plan on replacing or adding a drive you'll need a backup of a DVR-57H image, as the DVR-810H images thusfar have, for some reason, been impervious to utilization by MFStools (ie MFStools doesn't work for the software image on the DVR-810); with that in mind, if you have a DVR-810H you really have no choice whether to replace or not, its just a question of whether you want to replace with one or two drives. if you've got a DVR-57H, you do have the option of simply adding a drive. this can be done with MFStools or BlessTiVo, but bear in mind, that if you add a drive, the two will be married - so best to have a backup in case of a drive failure in the future.

Update: As mentioned previously... many Pioneer 810HS models do not behave "as expected" when it comes to expanding images using the -x or mfsadd commands. Up until a few months ago, there were a few 810HS images floating around that were "expandable" but many folks found that the traditional backup/restore and expand operation did not work as expected. With that said, JamieP developed a tool called "toshiba_unlock" which solves this problem for the Pioneer/Toshiba DVD models that exhibit this behavior. The tool is bundled with our LBA48 CD (free download) available here (http://www.ptvupgrade.com/products/software/lba48/index.html).


2) for drives greater than 137GB, you'll need a bootable CD, such as our free lba48 cd available here (http://www.ptvupgrade.com/products/software/lba48/index.html), so that you can fully access the capacity; there are details on using tpip for initializing your swap space on the site, as well in the startup for the bootable drive - but keep in mind that reliably creating a > 127GB swap file on Pioneer units is not yet possible, and that there is a bug in mfsfix on the TiVo 5.2 OS, so its unlikely that anyone will benefit from a > 127GB swap file on these units; you can use MFStools in whatever way you are most comfortable.

3) adding a drive, from a hardware perspective, is not as easy as replacing a drive; you need to remove the DVD recorder and then the tray beneath to expose both IDE interfaces, and replace the secondary IDE interface cable with a dual IDE cable. Removing the tray is not *that* difficult, but you do need an extra long #2 Philips screwdriver to get to one of the screws near the front cover. you will also need to open the DVD drive while the power is on and unsnap the bezel from the front of the drive tray (very easy to do) so that you can slide the DVD drive off the tray from inside. i'm sure we'll have some photos of this shortly.

4) the real issue when adding a drive is where to mount it, and we're considering some possibilities there. SmartStart (http://www.ptvupgrade.com/products/smartstart/) should handle any concerns related to power (we've tested with a Maxtor and Samsung together), but certainly not a requirement as the unit boots just fine with two drives and the DVD recorder. Cooling is definitely a concern, but not something we're particularly worried about as long as the unit is in a properly ventilated space.


My overall feeling here is that adding a drive is something to shy away from for a variety of reasons, however for those who are 'into it' its certainly quite doable for those willing to completely disassemble what appears to be a nice new toy.

Lou

[Twist]

Great! Who is going to be kind enough to share their DVR-57H image so I can upgrade my DVR-810H? =).

-Twist

[9thTee]

You will need a special bracket to mount the second drive and are working on mods to the PTVupgrade/9thTee bracket to accomodate this unit. We will post when more information if available.

Mark
9thTee.com

[boone]

Me to please :)

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by boone
Me to please :)

To quote Robert S,

"click (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144561)"

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by tivoupgrade
To quote Robert S,

"click (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144561)"

Lou,

The link isn't working or I don't have access to this thread. Would you confirm please?

Thanks.

[Robert S]

Lou had started a thread called something like 'request your images here!' in the hope that people would add to that thread rather than each start a new one. Surprisingly, it was actually working - you'll notice there aren't any 'I'm too lazy to use Google, can someone tell me where a backup is?' threads over the last few days.

Now the thread has disappeared without trace. Hmmmm...

[tivoupgrade]

Yes, the thread has disappeared without a trace. I didn't delete it. Nor did I get any emails from the moderators (I sent them an email prior to creating the thread), but I can only assume that someone didn't like it.

[DCIFRTHS]

A few questions for expanding a 57H image on a 300 GB drive.

1) Boot using Lou's disk. Is the kernal it boots with the one I should be using for my upgrade?
2) Use MFSTOOLS2 to expand the disk.
3) Increase swap size to ??? MB? How do I do this if the max is 127 MB using MFSTOOLS 2?

Any other help would be appreciated.

Thanks

[dkostan111]

Hi all. I looked around the web, asked around in this forum, and no one had or was willing to give me a 57H image so I could upgrade my 810. It was actually suggested that I just buy the 57H! So I went on my own and managed to do it with the existing tools (MFSTools 2.0). I now have 293 hours of storage on my 810H (with my new 250 Gb hard drive). I would be glad to share extactly what I did with ANYONE that asks (although I did not feel this way at first).

Cheers.

[cap]

I'm curious how you did it.
Although I was able to find a 57 image.

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by dkostan111
Hi all. I looked around the web, asked around in this forum, and no one had or was willing to give me a 57H image so I could upgrade my 810. It was actually suggested that I just buy the 57H! So I went on my own and managed to do it with the existing tools (MFSTools 2.0). I now have 293 hours of storage on my 810H (with my new 250 Gb hard drive). I would be glad to share extactly what I did with ANYONE that asks (although I did not feel this way at first).

Cheers.

I'm very curious. Please tell.

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by DCIFRTHS
I'm very curious. Please tell.

There is no mystery here - just use a boot CD with LBA48 support and MFSTOOLS 2 works absolutely fine.

[weaknees]

If you attempt to use mfsadd (or restore with -x) with a Pioneer 810H image, mfstool will report that the extra space has been used. But the TiVo won't recognize it - it'll think that you still have between 80 and 90 hours. Maybe that's what's going on here?

dkostan111 -

Have you verified the increased capacity in your System Information screen?

Michael

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by cap
I'm curious how you did it.
Although I was able to find a 57 image.

Did you guys add a large swap file? If so, how? Any information would be appreciated.

[dkostan111]

Okay. I tried to make post but it was just rejected becuse I put in a URL to the boot disk. I dont know why it worked since I dont know why it did not work before. Here is what I used:


from exisitng rev

5.2.1-01-2-275
DVD FW rev 1.31
THis was updated from the original out of box 810H SW code rev after forcing 2 call ins after getting a lifetime subscription.


To create backup:

mfsbackup -f 9999 -6so /mnt/dos/ptivo.bak /dev/hdc

To restore:

restore -x -s 400 -zpi /mnt/dos/ptivo.bak /dev/hdc

I made the swap size 400 Mbytes for no good reason except that I know it should be ~300 or larger.

Also the system information spreen verified the 293 Hours at lowest quality and 50 at extreme fine.

Cheers.

[dkostan111]

Yes I know how to spell...

I also wanted to add that I used the boot disk with LBA (11.5M) from the Hinsdale How-to upgrade page. My thanks goes out to the authors. I would post the link but that's what got my previous post rejected.

Cheers.

[dkostan111]

Originally posted by tivoupgrade
There is no mystery here - just use a boot CD with LBA48 support and MFSTOOLS 2 works absolutely fine.

Okay that's fine. But why didn't you tell everyone this before since the thread started out with the statement that the 57H image was required to upgrade the 810?

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by dkostan111
...I made the swap size 400 Mbytes for no good reason except that I know it should be ~300 or larger....

Have you confirmed that the swap is actually there and working? I have been reading that using the MFS Tools disk does not successfully create swaps larger than 127 MB.

Thanks.

[dkostan111]

Originally posted by DCIFRTHS
Have you confirmed that the swap is actually there and working? I have been reading that using the MFS Tools disk does not successfully create swaps larger than 127 MB.

Thanks.

To tell you the truth I never confirmed it before putting the new upgraded drive back in the 810 unit. I suppose I could pull it back out tomorrow and have a look (I don't have another spare drive to try this out on). When will this become apparent if the swap size is too small?

Cheers.

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by dkostan111
Okay that's fine. But why didn't you tell everyone this before since the thread started out with the statement that the 57H image was required to upgrade the 810?

From your original post it appeared that you had, in fact, used a 57H image. It looked like the 'mystery' was related to the use of mfstools, and not that you'd actually succeeded with an 810 image...

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by dkostan111
To tell you the truth I never confirmed it before putting the new upgraded drive back in the 810 unit. I suppose I could pull it back out tomorrow and have a look (I don't have another spare drive to try this out on). When will this become apparent if the swap size is too small?

Cheers.

I'm not an expert on this, but I believe you need to get a prompt, and the easiest way to verify a correctly initialized swap is to look at the logs. Maybe Robert, Weaknees or Lou, can post the information or point you to a post.

In the spirirt of this forum, I'm hoping that someone will post a way to get to get the swap working correctly on the Pioneers with large drives.

[weaknees]

Interesting development dkostan111; thanks for sharing. We had not tried to backup/restore using the new software version (which was to improve some reported video issues). Hopefully we'll have time today to play with the test machine for a bit.

[generaltso]

I tried to put my original 810H image onto a 160GB drive using the process descriped by dkostan111, but it doesn't seem to have worked. Like weaknees described, mfstools reported that the image was expanded, but the TiVo only recognized 82 hours. I'm not sure why it worked for dkostan111 but it didn't work for me (the software revisions are the same).

I'm currently using a 300GB drive that was created with a 57H image thanks to PTVupgrade. But I haven't been able to successfully burn a DVD with this image, which is why I'm interested in replacing the 57H image with an 810H image if it's really possible.

Has anyone else tried this yet?

[dkostan111]

Originally posted by generaltso
I tried to put my original 810H image onto a 160GB drive using the process descriped by dkostan111, but it doesn't seem to have worked. Like weaknees described, mfstools reported that the image was expanded, but the TiVo only recognized 82 hours. I'm not sure why it worked for dkostan111 but it didn't work for me (the software revisions are the same).

I'm currently using a 300GB drive that was created with a 57H image thanks to PTVupgrade. But I haven't been able to successfully burn a DVD with this image, which is why I'm interested in replacing the 57H image with an 810H image if it's really possible.

Has anyone else tried this yet?

Possibly of interest is that the drive was the same manufacturer and family as the drive in the 810 except larger (maxtor diamond max Plus Kit L01P250) . I used a 250 Gbyte drive and the expanded drive was out of the box new, never had anything installed on it before the image transfer. Same goes for the TIVO drive, I did not use it before I made my image, except that I forced two call ins to get the latest code from the TIVO service. It works great and reports 293 hours, burns DVD, everything.

Not sure if the HD being completely new/empty made a difference or not really using the TIVO before hand made a difference.

The best experiment would be for someone to use the 810H image I created on the exact same new HD drive and then on a different one to see if it makes a difference.

The image is ~800 Mbytes. Any takers for this experiment?

[tangent1138]

i have a brand new, never been touched 120gb Maxtor that I can throw your image on, see if it works.

[dkostan111]

Originally posted by tangent1138
i have a brand new, never been touched 120gb Maxtor that I can throw your image on, see if it works.

Please PM me if there are other takers for this experiment.

[dkostan111]

Originally posted by dkostan111
Please PM me if there are other takers for this experiment.

On second thought please dont PM me (except for tangent1138) since this could get out of control quickly. tangent1138 please PM me and we can figure out how to set up this experiment. Thanks.

[dkostan111]

Originally posted by generaltso
I tried to put my original 810H image onto a 160GB drive using the process descriped by dkostan111, but it doesn't seem to have worked. Like weaknees described, mfstools reported that the image was expanded, but the TiVo only recognized 82 hours. I'm not sure why it worked for dkostan111 but it didn't work for me (the software revisions are the same).

I'm currently using a 300GB drive that was created with a 57H image thanks to PTVupgrade. But I haven't been able to successfully burn a DVD with this image, which is why I'm interested in replacing the 57H image with an 810H image if it's really possible.

Has anyone else tried this yet?

Also one thing I forgot to mention because I did/do not think it made a difference but I'm bringing it up now since I wanted to thorough. After restoring the image to the larger drive I hit ctrl-c and then re-booted with the boot-CD and started to run the copykern(?) script command. I made it all the way to the last set of menus that asked to pick which LBA kern to use but it just listed a number of series 1 tivos. I hit ctrl-C at this point and shutdown without picking any of the selections, removed the drive and installed it in the 810.

I dont think the above made a difference but like I said, I am including it to be thorough. I will be working with someone over the next 1.5 weeks to try out my 810 image on some virgin drives like the one I used for my upgrade drive. Hopefully we will find a way to repeat my past success. Hang in there.

Cheers.

[generaltso]

Thanks for the work dkostan111. If you need somebody else to help in testing, I've got a Maxtor 160GB drive free to play with.

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by generaltso
I tried to put my original 810H image onto a 160GB drive using the process descriped by dkostan111, but it doesn't seem to have worked. Like weaknees described, mfstools reported that the image was expanded, but the TiVo only recognized 82 hours. I'm not sure why it worked for dkostan111 but it didn't work for me (the software revisions are the same).

I'm currently using a 300GB drive that was created with a 57H image thanks to PTVupgrade. But I haven't been able to successfully burn a DVD with this image, which is why I'm interested in replacing the 57H image with an 810H image if it's really possible.

Has anyone else tried this yet?

General,

Not sure why you are unable to burn using that image; if you want to send the drive back to us for re-imaging, please email me privately and we can make arrangements.

[generaltso]

Will do. Thanks.

[tangent1138]

Success!

Last night my friend and I were able to duplicate Dkostan111's results upgrading an 810H without a 57H image. here's the steps we took:


Tivo software version: 5.2.1-01-2-275
Pioneer DVD Firmware: rev 1.31
Old TiVo drive: 80 gig Maxtor Diamondmax
New TiVo drive: 250 gig Maxtor Diamondmax Plus (on sale this week at Fry's for $145 after $30 mail in rebate)



1) burned a copy of the MFStools 2.0 cd that has LBA48 support, available from Ptvupgrade.com here:

http://www.ptvupgrade.com/downloads/ptv-mfstools2-large-disk.iso


2) put tivo backup file in the root directory of the fat32 drive

3) hooked up drives as follows:

Primary Master - Fat32 system drive = hda
Secondary Master - new TiVo drive (250 gig Maxtor) = hdc
Secondary Slave - cd-rom drive = hdd


4) changed boot sequence in bios to boot from the cd drive first

5) booted with MFStools 2.0 cd

6) At # prompt, typed the following commands to mount my fat32 drive:

mkdir /mnt/dos
mount /dev/hda1 /mnt/dos


7) Then, to restore backup typed:

mfsrestore -x -s 400 -zpi /mnt/dos/ptivo.bak /dev/hdc


8) After it finished, we did the following, just to duplicate exactly dkostan111's steps:

control-alt-delete to reboot the Mfstools 2.0 cd. when you get to # prompt again, typed "copykern" to
load the kern copying utility. go through copykern until you get to a list of Series 1 tivo kernels. Hit "control-C" when you get to this

list. this will exit you out. again, we don't think this really did anything, but we were just duplicating dkostan111's steps exactly.

9) installed new TiVo drive in 810H.

10) powered up 810H. just to be sure, we ran "Clear and Delete" command under the Settings> Restart menu. not sure if this did anything,

but we were just trying to be thorough.

11) before we could get the network running again we had to string a phone to it and do several system calls. not sure if this because we

ran "Clear and Delete" or if we would've had to do it anyway. But after several calls, network worked, HMO was enabled again, and the

updated size was:

Extreme = 50 hrs
High = 99 hrs
Medium = 127 hrs
Basic= 293 hrs


Much thanks goes to Dkostan111 for discovering this and helping us duplicate it. now that we can duplicate it, the next question is if a

non-maxtor drive will work. looks like we don't need 57H image after all...

[damagi]

Originally posted by tangent1138
7) Then, to restore backup typed:

mfsrestore -x -s 400 -zpi /mnt/dos/ptivo.bak /dev/hdc


that wont properly initialize the swap file. check the mfstools threads regarding the issue, but basically you need to run mkswap as i recall. its due to a bug in mfstools.

[deadenders]

Thanks to all involved; tangent1138 & dkostan111. We worked long into the night. So far everything seems to be running smooth! I have even noticed that the system reboots faster with the new drive.

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by damagi
that wont properly initialize the swap file. check the mfstools threads regarding the issue, but basically you need to run mkswap as i recall. its due to a bug in mfstools.

I have been trying to get an answer on initializing the large swap file, but no one seems to have an answer. Here's (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=1596797#post1596797) one place I asked.

One company I spoke to says the swap is not necessary, and the other company says that they do have a way of initializing the large swap, but can't release the information due to competitive reasons.

[generaltso]

I followed tangent1138's instuctions to the letter, but it still didn't work. After putting the new drive in my 810, running "clear and delete everything" and going through the setup again, TiVo still reports the capacity as being 82 hours.

As far as I can tell, the only two differences are that I am using a Maxtor MaxLine II 300GB hard drive and I used an image that was created from my 810 (not dkostan111's 810 image).

I'm stumped.

[deadenders]

Was your backup a "Virgin" Backup like dkostan111's 810 image. I think that may be the key.

[generaltso]

No, it wasn't. I'm hesitant to wipe out everything on my original TiVo drive if I don't know for sure that it's going to work. Dkostan111, would you be willing to share your 810 image so we can figure out if that's really the key? We'll get this thing figured out eventually.

[dkostan111]

Originally posted by generaltso
No, it wasn't. I'm hesitant to wipe out everything on my original TiVo drive if I don't know for sure that it's going to work. Dkostan111, would you be willing to share your 810 image so we can figure out if that's really the key? We'll get this thing figured out eventually.

I would not mind sharing the image with other 810H owners but it's huge (>800 MBytes). With Tivo cracking down I'm not sure of the best way to do this. Technically you own the SW since you own an 810...Maybe someone could PM me about the right way to do this.

As far as properly initializing the swap... I don't have a clue. All I can say is that its been running fine for over a week with heavy use. Thank you tangent1138 for duplicating my results, enjoy those 293 hours! Maybe the key was a virgin image, the brand new replacement drive, or combination thereof. What did deadenders use for the replacement drive and image?

Dean

[generaltso]

I took the plunge and did a "clear and delete everything" on my original 810 drive so that I could create a "virgin" image. I created an image immediately after the "clear and delete" had finished, expanded the image onto the 300GB drive and ran through the initial setup. It still only reported 82 hours.

So I put the original drive back in and ran through the initial setup again. After the setup finished, I created another image and expanded it onto the 300GB drive. It still only reported 82 hours.

Next I expanded both of the images onto a 160GB Maxtor drive. Each time, the TiVo only reported 82 hours.

I can't figure out what I'm missing here.

[dkostan111]

Originally posted by tangent1138
Success!


10) powered up 810H. just to be sure, we ran "Clear and Delete" command under the Settings> Restart menu. not sure if this did anything,

but we were just trying to be thorough.

11) before we could get the network running again we had to string a phone to it and do several system calls. not sure if this because we

ran "Clear and Delete" or if we would've had to do it anyway.

I didn't run the Clear and Delete after I did my restore but its good that you tried this anyway.

[dkostan111]

Originally posted by generaltso
I took the plunge and did a "clear and delete everything" on my original 810 drive so that I could create a "virgin" image. I created an image immediately after the "clear and delete" had finished, expanded the image onto the 300GB drive and ran through the initial setup. It still only reported 82 hours.

So I put the original drive back in and ran through the initial setup again. After the setup finished, I created another image and expanded it onto the 300GB drive. It still only reported 82 hours.

Next I expanded both of the images onto a 160GB Maxtor drive. Each time, the TiVo only reported 82 hours.

I can't figure out what I'm missing here.

Since no one has verified this solution for anything but a Maxtor 250 GB drive I'm not sure what to say. In addition you image was not really a virgin since you did use the unit. I think that its important that we find out what deadenders used for an image and drive. Tangent1138 and I used the identical image and identical replacement drives.

[tangent1138]

actually, deadenders is my friend that i mentioned in my post. we did the upgrade together, so we only count as one...

[generaltso]

Dkostan111, I'll PM you so we can figure out how to transfer the image. If I can get it to work with my 300GB drive and your image, that will prove that it's the virgin image that makes all the difference. If it still doesn't work with your image, it must have something to do with the 250GB drive that you and tangent1138 used.

[cthulhu944]

I have a virgin 250gig WD hard drive. I would be willing to deflower it in the name of Science and tivo expansion. If someone has the working 810 image I'd be willing to try it out. Just PM me with the details.

[deadenders]

Well the drive has been going well for a few days now. I'm recording about 4hrs a day and burning about 1 -2 DVD-Rs a day as well. The only problem I have (as minor as it is) is that the new 250GB HD is loud as all get out. Besides that everything is great so far.

[generaltso]

Deadenders, you should run Maxtor's AMSET Accoustic Management Utility on your drive. It will make it much quieter.

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by deadenders
Well the drive has been going well for a few days now. I'm recording about 4hrs a day and burning about 1 -2 DVD-Rs a day as well. The only problem I have (as minor as it is) is that the new 250GB HD is loud as all get out. Besides that everything is great so far.

Deadenders -

My guess is that your swap file has not been created properly. If you used anything larger than -s 127 during your restore, and did not manually create your swap file, then chances are you have no swap file at all; just a partition. To verify this, you can remove your drive from your TiVo; boot with the lba38 CD and mount the /var partition - eg: mount /dev/hdc9 /mnt (assuming you are on secondary master).

Then cd to /mnt/log and do a "vi" on the file Kernel -- go all the way to the end and than work your way backwards to look for where the swap partition is accessed - you'll see whether the swap partition is successfully created or whether there is an error creating it and a failure of the swapon command.

If you find that the swap file has not been created, you need to do one of two things:

1) boot our universal boot CD (or even the Kazmyr CD) but not in 'noswap' mode, then run mkswap /dev/hdc8

or

2) restore your drive again with -s 127 and the swap file will be automatically and correctly created the first time its booted in your TiVo

Hope that helps,
Lou

[deadenders]

Thanks. I'll take a look at it in the next day or so.

[cthulhu944]

try 1: I received a 57h image from someone on the board and ran restore to my drive with it. The restore got to be around 99.99% complete and then it bombed with a message like "decompression failure". I thought that since it got to be so close to finished maybe I could go ahead and expand it--no dice, when I ran mfsadd it complained about the partition table not being there. I don't really know what went wrong with this restore, my only guess is that the 57h image I received must have been corrupted. I think my drive is ok, because after try 2 I had a working drive (minus any expansion).

try 2: I tried to do a back up of my 810 to the new drive--I did a restore on the new drive. One thing of note is that when I first booted the new expanded drive it took a long time to boot. My guess is that it detected something hosed and rebuilt the system to be a factory default of 82 hours. I also did a clear/delete all after the new drive booted, but that didn't help.

I have been looking around the net on what MFSTools does besides adding the new partitions, but there doesn't seem to be any info that I've found so far. My guess is that MFS tools creates the new MFS partitions, then makes some sort of update in the tivo application software (probably a simple config file update) so that TiVo knows to use the new partition. I believe that the first part of this is working -- and this is why MFSadd always reports that the tivo is already expanded, but the second part fails. Is there anyone outhere familiar with the MFStools internals? I'd like to figure this out, but without an understanding of MFStools I'd be starting from scratch.

With that in mind, I would appriciate any of the following: a working 57h image, a working 810 image, and/or any sort of explanation of what the MFSAdd process does with enough technical detail to troubleshoot what's going wrong with the 810.

Thanks in advance
David

[dkostan111]

Originally posted by tivoupgrade
Deadenders -

My guess is that your swap file has not been created properly.

Isn't swap space equivalent to a page file in windows? In which case I thought this would extend physical memory with virtual memory so that the OS doesn't go belly up if needs more space than there physically exists. In which case why does the unit still work if it needs more memory than is physically available and no swap exists? I thought that when the swap space is heavily used you end up getting the most hits to the hard drive since the OS is swapping data from/to physical memory and the virtual memory on the HD. Maybe you could clarify why the HD would be used more if the swap was not working but the unit still does not crash. I really would like to understand this. Thanks.

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by dkostan111
Isn't swap space equivalent to a page file in windows? In which case I thought this would extend physical memory with virtual memory so that the OS doesn't go belly up if needs more space than there physically exists. In which case why does the unit still work if it needs more memory than is physically available and no swap exists? I thought that when the swap space is heavily used you end up getting the most hits to the hard drive since the OS is swapping data from/to physical memory and the virtual memory on the HD. Maybe you could clarify why the HD would be used more if the swap was not working but the unit still does not crash. I really would like to understand this. Thanks.

Swap space is an extension of memory that applies to any computer system running an operating system with a virtual memory architecture and I think your interpretation is correct, but I do not know about the 'page file' in Windows so I won't draw a parallel there. I do not know enough about how memory is managed or the swap file utilized during the TiVo systems normal course of operation, however I have witnessed a scenario exactly like yours - more than typical activity of the hard drive in the abscence of a swap file on the appropriate partition. Its possible that its simply the sounds of the heads seeking back and forth as the errors are spewing into the log files when its not there - take a look at your log files btw, if there is no swap file you will know what I mean.

Its also possible that the TiVo has run out of physical and virtual memory and its 'thrashing' as well - I do not know how much memory the typical working set of the TiVo OS and APPS requires, so that is only speculation.

[Robert S]

Yes, it's exactly like paging in Windows ('swap' is an inaccurate term for what is actually paging, but it's what Unix people call it). The difference is that the paging file is actually a partition, not a file that can grow and shrink as needed (Windows 3 had an option to use a fixed swap file if you remember that far back).

The Linux VM is really nicely designed and makes very good use of both RAM and swap to optimise performance. In particular, RAM will almost always be fully utilised - any RAM not being actively used by the system or applications will be assigned to a cache for the disk drivers. So you should always get a good balance between disk caching (to speed access to files) and holding data in RAM (to avoid swapping).

So if there's no swap available to dump little-used code out of RAM, the disk caches will be very small and therefore disk activity will be higher. This has nothing to do with recording and playback of video streams, BTW, this only affects the software and the Guide DB.

If the system runs out of memory completely, then Linux will do its best to keep the system running. The Linux kernel and its drives will already be in RAM, so they're safe, and there's more than enough room to start tivoapp, so that should be safe too, but things that get started later, like the Indexer, may not be able to get enough RAM to start or to complete if there's no swap available.

This stealthy approach to caching makes it very hard to know exactly what the true working set is. However, it does seem that TiVoes ship with about the right amount of RAM as they behave a little oddly with no swap at all. The peak memory allocation seems to be when the Indexer runs, but even then, only a few tens of megs of swap are used.

The reason for concern about swap is that mfsfix - the 'Green Screen of Death' - allocates huge amounts of memory (the current best estimate is 1/2Mib for every 1Gib of disk space!) and can get stuck if that allocation fails.

If you work that out, 127Mb of swap plus most of the 32Mb system RAM works out as enough swap for about 300Gb of disk space, so most of the time running mfsrestore with -s 127 solves all the problems.

If you have (or intend to have) more than 300Gb, you may need more swap if you ever get a GSOD, so it's a good idea to use larger values for -s. That means having to initialise the swap by hand as mfsrestore can only make old-style swap signatures that are limited to 127Mb.

With tpip, this isn't really a problem anymore, but if you wanted to make a 300Mb (or whatever) swap partition and then intialise it with mkswap -v0 /dev/hdX8 (which /always/ works), your TiVo would have more than enough swap for normal operations and you'd only have to figure out how to initialise the swap partition properly if you got a GSOD and got stuck. (If the GSOD got stuck without the oversized swap partition and you didn't have the unused space in the swap partition available, you'd have to reimage the TiVo from a backup file).

(Hoping that makes sense - getting a bit sleepy here...)

[tivoupgrade]

Just one point of contention with what Robert S said... If you try to do a mkswap with the lba48 CD, I don't think it will work properly. You need to boot with a 'noswap' kernel, ie the PTVupgrade 6e or 7e Universal Boot CD or Kazmyr, and then do the mkswap. I need to go back and try it with -v0 though to see if I'm wrong on that.

[Robert S]

Well, people have been doing my 'rescue' on Series 2's for about 18 months and no-one ever reported a problem with mkswap -v0 in that context. I was therefore assuming there was something odd about mkswap -v1, but I suppose it could be something to do with the LBA-48 environment (either on the boot disk or the TiVo).

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by Robert S
Well, people have been doing my 'rescue' on Series 2's for about 18 months and no-one ever reported a problem with mkswap -v0 in that context. I was therefore assuming there was something odd about mkswap -v1, but I suppose it could be something to do with the LBA-48 environment (either on the boot disk or the TiVo).

I will look into this and let you know.

[generaltso]

Success!

Apparently it's all about the image. I tried everything under the sun with the image I created from my original 810H, but nothing would expand the drive. But for some unkown reason, the image that was originally created from dkostan111's 810H works like a charm. I successfully expanded the image to a 160GB Maxtor drive and a 300GB Maxtor drive. They reported 185 hours and 314 hours respectively.

You don't need to do anything special during the restore. I just did a plain old mfsrestore with 127MB of swap. There is no need to run the copykern utility, but you will need to run "clear and delete everything" so that the TiVo software will grab your TiVo service number.

Thanks again to dkostan111, tangent1138, and deadenders!

[weaknees]

So what hardware shows in your System Information screen - 57H or 810H?

Michael

[generaltso]

It shows 810-H-S.

[DCIFRTHS]

generaltso:

You say that you are running a 300GB drive with 128MB of swap? If this is correct, will you please post back, and let me know how things are running over the next few days? I am thinking of ding the same upgrade.

Thanks

[generaltso]

Sure thing. I've actually been running a 57H image with 127MB of swap for a while now and it works fine. I'm not sure how well it would recover from a GSOD, but normal operations seem to be flawless.

[weaknees]

OK - so it looks like some images or processes are different than others.

Michael

[generaltso]

My guess is that some 810s were released with a slightly different form of the software on them. The versions are all the same, but something is different. This allows some 810s to be upgraded with mfstools, while others cannot. Of course, I can't confirm this, but that's what it's looking like.

[dkostan111]

Originally posted by weaknees
So what hardware shows in your System Information screen - 57H or 810H?

Michael

So you think I was trying to pull a fast one and sent out a 57H image claiming it to be an 810H. Nope. Its an 810 as I have always said.

[weaknees]

No - not at all. Just trying to get all of the details. Pioneer could have switched images, expanded TiVos could change info on dial-in (a la the HDVR2 to HDVR3 issue), a rev of the software might show a more generic "Pioneer 275-" etc.

Michael

[cthulhu944]

I have a working 292 hour 810 tivo now!!

Big thanks to dkostan111 and generaltso for all the help.

I expanded the image onto a 250gig western digital 7200 spin 8meg cache drive . I used a -s option of 127 to avoid any issues with the swap file. The only issue I have is that it is a bit noisier with the faster drive. I'm considering puting some sort of sound absorbing material inside the case to reduce the noise. It's not that bad, but I think a simple mod could reduce the noise back to where it was before the upgrade.

[weaknees]

Excellent - thanks for the post. Did you use dkostan111's image or did you make one of your own?

Michael

[deadenders]

The only issue I have is that it is a bit noisier with the faster drive.

I have the same problem with my 250 Maxtor. Not a big problem.

[generaltso]

Deadenders, you should run AMSET to put your drive in quiet mode. It made my drive a whole lot quieter. You can download it from Maxtor's website here:

http://maxtor.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/maxtor.cfg/php/enduser/olh_adp.php?p_faqid=1200

cthulhu944, this won't run on your Western Digital drive but WD probably has a similar utility.

[weaknees]

We've started using Maxtor QuickView drives in these boxes, and they really are noticeably quieter than the WD drives and the stock desktop Maxtor drives.

Michael

[deadenders]

Thanks Generaltso! Tangent1138 had mentioned something like this to me last night. I'll try it this weekend.

[cthulhu944]

Originally posted by weaknees
Excellent - thanks for the post. Did you use dkostan111's image or did you make one of your own?

Michael

It was dkostan111's image. I think there is something special about the time and manner in which he made the image. I did effectively the same backup/restore with my own drive and it didn't work. I think the key is that his image was made prior to completing the guide setup for the first time.

generaltso, thanks for the suggestion on the quiet mode utilities. I'll check out the WD website and if I find anything worth trying I'll post back for anyone else who wants to upgrade with WD drives.

[dkostan111]

I was wondering if deadenders or tangent1138 ever pulled the drive and checked the kernel log file to see if indeed the swap was not correctly created when we did the -s 400 restore instead of the -s 128. I was thinking on checking this over the weekend possibly but was wondering of anyone else already did.

As far as noise, my 250 isn't terrible but I do notice a faint but distint click about every 2 - 10 seconds but again it is still not bad. It is noiser than the 80Gbyte maxtore I used when upgrading my old SVR-2000. Otherwise it has been stellar.


Another thing I wanted to bring up to the forum is overall video quality of the 810H. I have noticed from time to time (~every 1-3 minutes) that even when the scene does not really transition or have too much motion, I do get some minor and momentary mpeg artifacts (at an sp recording setting). Has any else noticed this? Its not terrible but I dont remember anything like this with my old SVR-2000.

[cthulhu944]

Originally posted by dkostan111
...
Another thing I wanted to bring up to the forum is overall video quality of the 810H. I have noticed from time to time (~every 1-3 minutes) that even when the scene does not really transition or have too much motion, I do get some minor and momentary mpeg artifacts (at an sp recording setting). Has any else noticed this? Its not terrible but I dont remember anything like this with my old SVR-2000. [/B]

Yes I have notice the same thing. After doing some searching on the forums here I discovered that it is basically a design compromise in order to have "DVD compliant" recordings. In short, all recordings on the pioneer DVD recorders are made at a resolution of 720x480 which is the standard for DVD video. At that resolution you must have a very high data rate (read quality setting). Even at high and super-fine settings (highest data rates) it is still possible to saturate the MPEG chip on the tivo which results in the mpeg artifacts you are seeing. For comparison purposes I have been told that the "best" quality setting on other series 2 tivos (and I guess series 1 tivos) is something like 520 x 480, and "basic" quality is something like 320 x 480.

When I first got my Pioneer unit I was furrious over the quality until I understood the issues behind it. I called Pioneer tech support and was told "Pioneer is aware of the issue and is working with TIVO for a fix". I expect that they will add something to the quality settings to allow you to reduce the resolution for a given quality level which should fix the artifact problem at the cost of not being able to produce DVD compliant recordings. This is speculation--they might do nothing at all, but I think that sets them up for all sorts of consumer complaints.

It is my belief that even if a recording isn't 100% DVD compliant (recorded at a resolution other than 720x480) it should still play in most DVD players.

Until that is fixed, I will just record everything at super-fine or best quality -- hence the reason for my upgrade here.

[generaltso]

Yes, there's a lot of chatter in the forums about the lousy picture quality of the Pioneer boxes. There's also a flickering problem that seems to be plagueing a lot of them. Pioneer says that they know about these problems and they will be "fixed" in a future software update. As long as you have a big enough drive to record everything at the Extreme setting, the picture quality is good enough. Of course, this limits you to 1 hour per DVD.

[dkostan111]

Originally posted by Robert S
Yes, it's exactly like paging in Windows ('swap' is an inaccurate term for what is actually paging, but it's what Unix people call it). The difference is that the paging file is actually a partition, not a file that can grow and shrink as needed (Windows 3 had an option to use a fixed swap file if you remember that far back).

The Linux VM is really nicely designed and makes very good use of both RAM and swap to optimise performance. In particular, RAM will almost always be fully utilised - any RAM not being actively used by the system or applications will be assigned to a cache for the disk drivers. So you should always get a good balance between disk caching (to speed access to files) and holding data in RAM (to avoid swapping).

So if there's no swap available to dump little-used code out of RAM, the disk caches will be very small and therefore disk activity will be higher. This has nothing to do with recording and playback of video streams, BTW, this only affects the software and the Guide DB.

If the system runs out of memory completely, then Linux will do its best to keep the system running. The Linux kernel and its drives will already be in RAM, so they're safe, and there's more than enough room to start tivoapp, so that should be safe too, but things that get started later, like the Indexer, may not be able to get enough RAM to start or to complete if there's no swap available.

This stealthy approach to caching makes it very hard to know exactly what the true working set is. However, it does seem that TiVoes ship with about the right amount of RAM as they behave a little oddly with no swap at all. The peak memory allocation seems to be when the Indexer runs, but even then, only a few tens of megs of swap are used.

The reason for concern about swap is that mfsfix - the 'Green Screen of Death' - allocates huge amounts of memory (the current best estimate is 1/2Mib for every 1Gib of disk space!) and can get stuck if that allocation fails.

If you work that out, 127Mb of swap plus most of the 32Mb system RAM works out as enough swap for about 300Gb of disk space, so most of the time running mfsrestore with -s 127 solves all the problems.

If you have (or intend to have) more than 300Gb, you may need more swap if you ever get a GSOD, so it's a good idea to use larger values for -s. That means having to initialise the swap by hand as mfsrestore can only make old-style swap signatures that are limited to 127Mb.

With tpip, this isn't really a problem anymore, but if you wanted to make a 300Mb (or whatever) swap partition and then intialise it with mkswap -v0 /dev/hdX8 (which /always/ works), your TiVo would have more than enough swap for normal operations and you'd only have to figure out how to initialise the swap partition properly if you got a GSOD and got stuck. (If the GSOD got stuck without the oversized swap partition and you didn't have the unused space in the swap partition available, you'd have to reimage the TiVo from a backup file).

(Hoping that makes sense - getting a bit sleepy here...)

Well, in the name of furthering the understanding of whether the restore with the -s 400 I originally did on my unique 810H image had the effect of properly creating and init'ing the 400Mbyte swap, I did the following:

1. booted from the lba48 cd

2. Looked at the kernel log and saw only entries like the following over and over:

R_target 4620 kbps .....
Parms ....
Run Correction -464 433 30


3. An finally against my gut feeling (since I saw no entries that I thought indicated a swap problem) I ran the mkswap -v0 /dev/hda8 (my drive was master primary) and the message back said it truncated my swap to 133Mbytes and created a swap of about the same (133 Mbytes) size (but not exactly) of type 0.

4. Put the drive back in the TIVO and all worked fine just the same as before I did the above.

So the question I have is -> what happened? Was my 400 mbtye swap there all along and working fine AND I possible screwed myself in the event of a future GSOD since my new swap is 133 Mbytes? What do you think Robert? I could always restore again but I was wondering what anyone else might be able to extract from the above. Thanks.

[dkostan111]

Another observation after I did the procedure of my last email is that my drive appears to be somewhat noisier... But definetly not any better...

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by dkostan111
Well, in the name of furthering the understanding of whether the restore with the -s 400 I originally did on my unique 810H image had the effect of properly creating and init'ing the 400Mbyte swap, I did the following:

1. booted from the lba48 cd

2. Looked at the kernel log and saw only entries like the following over and over:

R_target 4620 kbps .....
Parms ....
Run Correction -464 433 30


3. An finally against my gut feeling (since I saw no entries that I thought indicated a swap problem) I ran the mkswap -v0 /dev/hda8 (my drive was master primary) and the message back said it truncated my swap to 133Mbytes and created a swap of about the same (133 Mbytes) size (but not exactly) of type 0.

4. Put the drive back in the TIVO and all worked fine just the same as before I did the above.

So the question I have is -> what happened? Was my 400 mbtye swap there all along and working fine AND I possible screwed myself in the event of a future GSOD since my new swap is 133 Mbytes? What do you think Robert? I could always restore again but I was wondering what anyone else might be able to extract from the above. Thanks.

Did you take a look at your kernel log files? That will show whether you previously had a 400MB or 133MB swap file (now you definitely have a 133MB swap file because you manually created one)...
Lou

[Robert S]

The only way to be sure is to read the logs and identify the lines that refer to activating swap. Swap is activated before the clock is set, so you're looking for lines dated just after midnight on the 1st of Jan 1970. There will be three lines if activation failed, but I think just one if activation succeeds, which can be quite hard to spot.

Something like "grep -C swap /mnt/log/kernel" might help you find the right lines.

It certainly seems like the -v0 initialisation succeed - mkswap knows about the 128Mb limit and warns you that you're only getting 133 million bytes of swap even though the partition is larger. I don't recall ever seeing a problem with -v0 once people have got to that stage.

128Mb of swap is plenty for ordinary operations. The only circumstance in which you would have to revisit the issue is if you got a GSOD that kept rebooting. If you never get a GSOD or you get a GSOD that goes away on its own, then you have nothing to worry about. Hopefully by the time that happens these sorts of issues will be well understood and you'll be able to initialise the full swap partition very easily.

[tivoupgrade]

Note: On the PC/BOOTCD I use, I often get a 'bus error' when grepping through the log files so you may not be able to grep out all the matching entrys. You can also "vi" the file and and then type /swap and then just use the "n" key to advance to each matching occurrence...

[Robert S]

If you're really struggling (either with Linux itself, or you just want to be able to look at the logs and read this web site), you can copy the file(s) into your Windows drive for further study:

mkdir /mnt/win
mount /dev/hda1 /mnt/win
mkdir /mnt/tivo
mount /dev/hdc9 /mnt/tivo
cp /mnt/tivo/log/kernel /mnt/win
umount -a -f -r

You can then use WordPad (or anything other than Notepad!) to read the log in Windows. You can even paste into a post if you wish.

[deadenders]

This may be the wrong place to ask this but is there any way to view the log files of the 810 without taking the drive out of the box? Backdoor codes or another way?

[dkostan111]

Originally posted by Robert S
The only way to be sure is to read the logs and identify the lines that refer to activating swap. Swap is activated before the clock is set, so you're looking for lines dated just after midnight on the 1st of Jan 1970. There will be three lines if activation failed, but I think just one if activation succeeds, which can be quite hard to spot.

Something like "grep -C swap /mnt/log/kernel" might help you find the right lines.

It certainly seems like the -v0 initialisation succeed - mkswap knows about the 128Mb limit and warns you that you're only getting 133 million bytes of swap even though the partition is larger. I don't recall ever seeing a problem with -v0 once people have got to that stage.



Yes I guess I dindn't do a thorough search with vi since it was late and its been years since I used it last(couldn't remember the seach command use). Also You are correct also in that it reported ~133 million bytes (~127 Mbytes) and not 133Mbytes (normally it bugs me when they are interchanged too).

Anyways I think I'm done cracking the case open unless a future GSOD wont go away. Thanks for the help; maybe someone else will pull the logs and do a thorough search for the sake of putting it to rest.

[Robert S]

Presumably the backdoor codes for reading logs are still there. The problem would be that the backdoor activation code is different for each version of the TiVo software and the code for 4.0 and 5.0 hasn't been divulged.

[Cougar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tangent1138
[B]Success!

Last night my friend and I were able to duplicate Dkostan111's results upgrading an 810H without a 57H image. here's the steps we took:

....

]

Just looking for a summary of this upgrade to try out - this post looks like it has the all steps needed to do this - the Maxtor 250GB seems like a good and safe bet. However, unless you have a virgin 810H hard drive (mines months old by now) it sounds like I can't make the backup myself and need to get Dkostan111's (or another similar image to do this, right?

[deadenders]

I would say yes.

[generaltso]

There's definitely something different about the image, but nobody really knows what exactly. I tried creating the image with my 810 drive after performing a "clear and delete everything", which should have made it a "virgin" drive, but mfsadd still didn't work. Dkostan111's image, however, worked perfectly. Dkostan111 hadn't recorded anything before he created the image, but he did run through the guided setup and update to the newest software version, so I'm not sure that I would really call his a "virgin" either. But his image works, so who knows?

Cougar, if you haven't already tried the upgrade with your own image, I would suggest you give it a try. It will either work or it won't. If it doesn't work, post back here and I'm sure we can help you out with Dkostan111's image. By the way, there doesn't seem to be anything special about the 250GB target drive. It tried it on 160GB and 300GB drives and it works fine.

[bandit1170]

I would like to get a copy of the only known working 810 image. I would very much like to upgrade to the larger drive. Anybody out there willing to share it?

Thank you.

db

[generaltso]

Bandit1170, PM me if you still need it and we can make arrangements. Make sure you try the upgrade with your 810 image first. I'd like to see if we can find another 810 that produces an upgradable image.

[Fanboy]

I have been able to back up my 810 and restore it to a 250g western digital hard drive.
Recording Capacity: variable, up to 291
Software version: 5.2-01-2-275

I have recorded to a CD-R, CD-RW. I also erased and re-recorded on the same CD-RW.

I'm going to write up step by step what I did keep in mind I'm no Linix guru.
My Tivo was a real virgin I never plugged it in till after I did the swap.
It's been sitting in the box for over 2 weeks. I chose the WD hard drive because Frys had them for $104 after $70 dollar rebate. I took all of the suggestions from all of the forms and just went for it.

[Fanboy]

I forgot to hit the spell checker before I submitted.

I'm also thinking of the best way for the group to test my image with out getting in trouble

[ericthebikeman]

I grabbed a pioneer 810 Saturday night and noticed this thread. So for this to work I have to have a 810H that was NEVER powered up to make an image to restore to a new drive?

[generaltso]

Nobody really knows. I would recommend making an image before you do anything to the unit just in case. I have a fealing that it doesn't really matter what you do to the drive before making the image. I think there's just something different in the software on newer units that allows mfstools to work.

[ericthebikeman]

dkostan was saying that maybe a brand new drive is required. Couldn't you use the drive utilities from maxtor or WD to write zeros to the disk leaving it completely blank?
Didn't try it myself but I thought I would bring it up as a remote possibility.

[weaknees]

mfstools just overwrites the drive - it acts as if it's blank. It doesn't even check the drive to see if it works properly, really. So having a blank drive shouldn't have any effect on the upgrade.

FWIW - we've tried to replicate this with used and blank drives, to no avail. It really seems to be the image.

Michael

[generaltso]

It's definitely the image. The question is what's unique about the image. I think it's a difference in the software.

[weaknees]

Must be - they must have shipped slightly different versions in there.

Michael

[ericthebikeman]

I think I'm going to try it with a new off the shelf 810H. I'm kind of reluctant though since it is a new 1 year warranty. Wonder if visa gold warranty coverage is also voided by opening it up.



Well if I do try it would it be beneficial to anyone if I took the unpowered unit, restore the image from that unit to a big drive, test it. Then restore a used image to an identical drive to see what that does or has it been determined that a virgin image is absolutely required, unless some other breakthrough is found.

[weaknees]

The issue will really be whether the first test works. If it does, then you likely have a golden image. You can try it on a used drive, but I'm pretty sure it'll work if it did on a new one.

Michael

[generaltso]

Yeah, I'd be interested to see A) do mfstools work with your "virgin" image and B) do mfstools work on an image created after you've been using the unit for a little while. My hunch is that if A works, B will work too.

Don't worry about voiding your warranty. The 810 does not have any sort of tamper detection sticker, so Pioneer would have no way of knowing that you cracked the case.

[cthulhu944]

I wonder if the size of a virgin 810 image would be smaller. The dkonstan111 image is 800 meg--and it is my understanding that he plugged the unit in and ran through part of the guide setup to get the updates. A drive image fresh from the factory might be quite a bit smaller. A smaller image is a lot more convenent for people to get.

Of course this is all a moot point if the new drives comming out of the factory work with the mfs tools even after the guide setup.

[talosiv]

Another data point:

Drive: WD2500JBRTL 250 GB ($139 after rebate at Circuit City)

Used dkostan111's image, pvtupgrade lba48 bootdisk, and his exact restore command line published earlier in the thread

291 hours. Woo hoo !

No luck with images from the unit itself (I've been using it since Christmas). It really must be something about his image.

Rich

[ericthebikeman]

Another success!

I made an image from a new unit built on October 2003 and restored it to a Maxtor L01P200. I followed the directions dsostan except I didn't do the clear and delete after install. The image was 1705MB uncompressed and about 50% compression, I must admit I didn't plug the drive with the backup file into my windows box to find the exact compressed size.

I have 40 hours on Extreme
80 High
158 Medium
234 Basic

Every thing seems fine, I am making the last service call for get my USB networking adapter supported.

SV: 5.2-01-2-275
DVD: 1.31
Maxtor 200GB "Ultra Series" Model # L01P200

[Fanboy]

I took my original hard drive placed it back into my Tivo powered it up went thru the set up forced 3 connections ( i don't have a land phone). I then removed the drive and did the same steps as with the 250gig drive on a 160 gig drive and it did not work.

[Fanboy]

MY virgin back up is 845MB.

[yekim]

Originally posted by talosiv
Another data point:

Drive: WD2500JBRTL 250 GB ($139 after rebate at Circuit City)

Used dkostan111's image, pvtupgrade lba48 bootdisk, and his exact restore command line published earlier in the thread

291 hours. Woo hoo !

No luck with images from the unit itself (I've been using it since Christmas). It really must be something about his image.

Rich

I have the exact same setup (WD250 GB from CC with rebate). I cannot get my used image (non-virgin 810) to work. Would anyone mind sharing dkostan111's image for me to try to duplicate this? Sounds like he has the lucky image! Thanks :-)

[magnusmx]

Yes, me too. Can someone send me a copy of the special image? Please?

[ThreeSoFar]

So, how many successes have we had with off the shelf virgin backups of 810's being successfully restored to larger drives?

I think I counted at least two, right?

[ericthebikeman]

Originally posted by ThreeSoFar
So, how many successes have we had with off the shelf virgin backups of 810's being successfully restored to larger drives?

I think I counted at least two, right?

I think it was dkostan, tangent, cthulhu, and myself. The first two used the same "magic" image, cthulhu and myself used ones off our own I think.

The one I used was a virgin backup.

[pvalery]

Originally posted by magnusmx
Yes, me too. Can someone send me a copy of the special image? Please?
ME TOO

[catrov]

I'm a brand-new member of this forum, but I've been reading this thread and trying to upgrade my Pioneer 810 for the last week. My TiVo had been used for a couple weeks before I attempted upgrading it. I'm using a WD 160GB ATA100 Caviar drive, first tried a standard minimal backup (no video streams), then tried the upgrade backup/restore commands posted here, then tried doing 'Clear & Delete Everything' on the new drive I'd just built, pulled the drive when it first came back up in Guided Setup and did a backup/restore to expand it (using the commands posted here), then finished Guided Setup with the newly re-expanded drive. Also tried restarting the TiVo again after that. No luck on any of those; still says 82 hours. It does seem to boot faster now, though, but I haven't actually timed it to verify that.

One thing I don't think I've seen addressed is whether it matters if the drive is ATA100 or ATA133. The Maxtor that came in the unit is ATA133.

So, I'd now like to also say "Me too" to getting a copy of the magic 810 image. Can anybody help with this?

[weaknees]

ATA100 and ATA133 are both fine for TiVo drives. But the problem is definitely the image here.

Michael

[bandit1170]

I received a copy of the dkostan image, thank you, you know who you are, and tried to create and restore an image from my existing drive. I was unable to expand my image to a new drive, although I received no errors, that I recall.

But, as seems to be the case with all, I was able to restore and expand dkostan's image to a WD 250GB with no problems.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Going from a Series 1 with over 40 High quality hours to the Pioneers 14 was killing me.

Thank you for sharing.

db

[catrov]

Another success with dkostan image:

Restored to Maxtor Diamondmax 16 300GB 5400 rpm ATA133 drive, the exact same model of drive that ships in 810H, only bigger. Used mfsrestore with '-s 400' following most recent success story further back in thread. Encountered three anomolies that don't appear to have messed anything up, but want to report them for information value for other upgraders:

1) TiVo came up for the first time with the new disk and displayed a 'hardware error' message that seemed to say something needed repairing, but I stupidly hit 'Select' before paging down to read the whole message, so I don't know for sure what the error was. Maybe it had to do with the swap option I used? I'm going to pull the drive and run mfsinfo on it after it's been running a bit; maybe it needs an mkswap done.

2) Immediately after dismissing that message, a second message appeared saying the TiVo service hadn't been called in over a month, and that the obvious things - program guide, season passes, etc - wouldn't work until it did. Makes sense, though I never saw that message before.

After dismissing that message and pressing TiVo button, TiVo came up and Settings->System Info showed 353 hours (yay!) but also showed anomoly three:

3) TiVo service number unavailable.

Restarted TiVo, came up normally this time (no error messages) but svc number still unavail, so for safety did a Clear & Delete All, and after Guided Setup all was OK - svc number present, and it set the TiVo name correctly so it obviously must have found my account info. I've tested burning DVD's and playing; all appears to work.

Thanks again to the helper who provided the magic image - you know who you are!

Pioneer 810H expanded to:
353 hours basic
238 hours medium
120 hours high
60 hours extreme

Thank you all for sharing your experience and knowledge.

[generaltso]

Catrov, those actually aren't anomomlies. It's normal for an image that was created from a different TiVo. The "Clear and Delete Everything" is a requirment for the image to be usable.

[DCIFRTHS]

Lou, it was usggested that I check this thread to vefiy the information below, but after reading this thread, over the last coule of days, my head is spinning. I have deciphered the information below, so if you could comment on the information and questions below, it wold be greatly appreciated.

After restoring a Pioneer 57H image to a 300GB drive using mfstools and the -s 150 option, I need to run tpip with the argument listed below:

tpip -mkswap -s /dev/hdx (where x is the location of the HD with the large swap file on it.

I am under the impression that this will initialize the large swap file created by mfstools. I got this information from this (http://www.courtesan.com/tivo/tpip.html) page under the options section.

1) Is the information above correct?
2) Will it work in a real life scenario?

Thanks

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by DCIFRTHS
Lou, it was usggested that I check this thread to vefiy the information below, but after reading this thread, over the last coule of days, my head is spinning. I have deciphered the information below, so if you could comment on the information and questions below, it wold be greatly appreciated.

After restoring a Pioneer 57H image to a 300GB drive using mfstools and the -s 150 option, I need to run tpip with the argument listed below:

tpip -mkswap -s /dev/hdx (where x is the location of the HD with the large swap file on it.

I am under the impression that this will initialize the large swap file created by mfstools. I got this information from this (http://www.courtesan.com/tivo/tpip.html) page under the options section.

1) Is the information above correct?
2) Will it work in a real life scenario?

Thanks

Hi,

Nope, unfortunately not. I've not gotten tpip to reliably initialize swap above 127GB for the Pioneer units. I think it actually be more a function of the kernel on the Pioneer units, but I'm not sure. All I know is that once I was able to produce a large swap file on a large drive for a Pioneer unit, but I have not been able to repeat it. I think there are some folks out there who know how to do it, but they haven't been sharing the information.

In any case, I'd recommend you just do your mfsrestore with -s 127; you can still use tpip to initialize the swap space, but the kernel should do it automatically, I think.

See here for more information:

LBA 48 CD (http://www.ptvupgrade.com/support/bigdisk/index.html)

Lou

PS Am working on a hybrid CD that has both LBA48 and "standard" support on it; should solve the problem of having to do the CD swap when using TurboNet/CacheCard install tools, flashing, etc...

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by tivoupgrade
Hi,

.... I think there are some folks out there who know how to do it, but they haven't been sharing the information.....

Lou

I have requested the information on how to increase the swap from the people I think you are referring to, and I was told that they are not releasing that information.

I will NOT be upgrading my 57H because I am just uncomfortable (call me paranoid, other people do ;) ) about it not surviving a GSOD.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. It's greatly appreciated.

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by DCIFRTHS
I have requested the information on how to increase the swap from the people I think you are referring to, and I was told that they are not releasing that information.

I will NOT be upgrading my 57H because I am just uncomfortable (call me paranoid, other people do ;) ) about it not surviving a GSOD.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. It's greatly appreciated.

Please see your PM.

[GBaz]

anyhelp with a series 2 (tivo made) 40 hr image

[BurnNYC]

Hi, all. I'm a long-time lurker, first-time poster on this forum...

Frustrated with the 14-hrs on extreme-fine with my 810H and I'm itching to upgrade to a 250-300GB drive. Ive got two questions:

1. Is there a kind-hearted person out there who can hook me up with the coveted "magic" dkostan image?

2. What are the pros/cons of upgrading to a 5400RPM vs. 7200RPM drive in this unit? (Heat issues? Speed? Responsiveness? Noise? Long-term Durability?)

Thank you for your help and insights!

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by BurnNYC
Hi, all. I'm a long-time lurker, first-time poster on this forum...

Frustrated with the 14-hrs on extreme-fine with my 810H and I'm itching to upgrade to a 250-300GB drive. Ive got two questions:

1. Is there a kind-hearted person out there who can hook me up with the coveted "magic" dkostan image?

2. What are the pros/cons of upgrading to a 5400RPM vs. 7200RPM drive in this unit? (Heat issues? Speed? Responsiveness? Noise? Long-term Durability?)

Thank you for your help and insights!

(1) hang in there - if you can't find one for free we can do a recertification on a new drive for you; see our site for details

(2) the 5400rpm vs 7200rpm issue is not an issue; either will do fine, just ensure you get a high quality drive with a good warranty (samsung and maxtor are great) and you will have no problems.

[drster]

I'm just about to receive a brand new DVR-810H. After reading this thread I'm wondering if I should do anything special before using this unit as I might want to upgarade. Also, what is everyone's opinion about the tivo basic that comes on the unit vs. tivo + (is that what they call it?). I'm a complete newbie, but I have replaced hds in computers and have put extra hds in a computer, but I am rusty. If possible, a list of programs to use would be nice, but I can also read up if you guys prefer. BTW, I like the name of the Hinsdale method as the town next door to me is Hinsdale.

[weaknees]

If you live in Illinois, then you are near the same Hinsdale that gives the guide its name. We also have a guide here:

http://www.upgrade-instructions.com

You can try the upgrade with what you have - some images seem to work and others don't.

TiVo Plus is much better than Basic. We compare the two here:

http://www.weaknees.com/pioneer_faq.php

Michael

[Robert S]

No, there's nothing you need to do before you take the decision to upgrade. AIUI the 810H's image is not compatible with MFS Tools, so to upgrade it you have to buy a drive with the software from the '57 on it (which is identical except it is compatible with MFS Tools) from an upgrade shop.

Unless you can find a '57 image somewhere, you won't be preparing the drive yourself.

You'll get 45 days free TiVo plus service. You won't be letting that lapse back to TiVo Basic when that runs out!

'Hinsdale' is indeed a reference to Hinsdale, IL.

[drster]

That's the Hinsdale I know. Must be neighbors. I was asking about my new unit because tangent1138 and dkstan111 were discussing the upgrade and a need for a virgin 810 image so that was why I posed the question. I'll read about the differences between basic and plus.

[weaknees]

It's not the fact that it's virgin, it's the specific image and some difference in it. Most virgin images still don't expand - but all 57H images do.

Michael

[generaltso]

Drster, try the upgrade with your image and see if it works. It will either work or it won't. If it doesn't, you'll either need a 57H image or an image from an 810H that's known to work.

[drster]

When we're talking about upgrade, are we just talking about a bigger drive or are there any bonus features? Also, can I save my drive image even if I'm not gonna upgrade right away?

[weaknees]

We're just talking about extra hours here.

And, yes, you can save the drive image for future use - never a bad idea. But that image may be one that doesn't provide you with more hours when you re-use it.

Michael

[mockfam]

I have a pioneer 810hs (57h image)with a 3oomb drive and a 120mb drive.

It upgraded successfully and displays 451 hrs.

But it will not finalize a DVD.

I used the s -127 and speculate that a larger swap could help. Any one want to share how this could be done?

[weaknees]

I really don't think the larger swap is the issue. What exact error message do you get? What software version do you have? Could it be the DVD media, i.e. did the same type of media work with the stock 80 GB drive?

So where do you have the second drive located?

Michael

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by mockfam
I have a pioneer 810hs (57h image)with a 3oomb drive and a 120mb drive.

It upgraded successfully and displays 451 hrs.

But it will not finalize a DVD.

I used the s -127 and speculate that a larger swap could help. Any one want to share how this could be done?

What command did you use when making your backup of the 57H unit? If you used a -Tf 4138, that is the problem; you will need to re-make your backup with a -Tf 9999 which will catch the xtra video stream that is part of the background menus for the DVD creation.

[cap]

Has anyone tried copying the whole disk including recordings to a new larger disk?

[deadenders]

Not me. I haven't heard of anyone doing this yet.

[Robert S]

There's no reason to think it wouldn't work on the 57H. The problems with the 810H's image would presumably apply to this context as well.

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by cap
Has anyone tried copying the whole disk including recordings to a new larger disk?

The process and syntax using MFStools is the same as with any other TiVo disk with recordings on it; all the same rules apply (ie you'll need to do a clear and delete everything if the drive is going into another unit).

[cap]

Then why is this even an option for upgrading?

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by cap
Then why is this even an option for upgrading?

Can you please expand on that question, I'm totally not understanding you here.

[generaltso]

I think cap is asking why there is an option to keep your programming when you upgrade since you have to run a "clear and delete everything" when you put the new drive in your TiVo.

The answer is that you only have to run a clear and delete everything if you are using the image from somebody else's TiVo. If the image was originally created in your TiVo and the expanded drive is going back into your TiVo, you don't have to clear and delete everything, and can therefore keep your programming.

The problem is that unless you have one of the "magic" 810's that work with MFSTOOLS, you'll have to use somebody else's image.

[cap]

Yep, that's what I was asking.

I am not sure if I have one of the "magic" 810's or not, but would like to keep the shows I have.

I think I've only heard about dkostan's image, how many good images have turned up?

And is there a corelation to newer or older machines?

I'm hoping to upgrade my 810 soon and am hoping I have a magic unit.

[generaltso]

I know of 2 810 images that have successfully worked with MFSTOOLS. I'm not sure about the correlation to the age of the box.

My recommendation would be to create an image from your 810 (without the program data) and expand it onto a bigger drive. If that works, you should be able to do it again while keeping your program data. If it doesn't work, you won't need to bother trying it with your program data.

[weaknees]

Just to follow-on to generaltso's comments - your PC will show that the drive HAS expanded, but you won't really know until you put it back in your TiVo and see what capacity it shows.

Michael

[cap]

Well my upgrade failed.
Didn't see an increase in space.
Has anyone had any luck looking into why this isn't working on the 810?

[weaknees]

Did you just use your image, or did you use a known-working one?

Michael

[cap]

I just tried mine.

I didn't try all the stops dkostan tried either, just the backup, restore and add.

[cap]

could the mystery have something to do with how dkostan did his restore?

dkostan typed:
restore -x -s 400 -zpi /mnt/dos/ptivo.bak /dev/hdc

and hinsdale says:
mfsrestore -s 127 -bzpi /mnt/dos/tivo.bak /dev/hdb

[generaltso]

No. It has nothing to do with how you do the backup or the restore. I know because I tried it every way you can think of with my own image and nothing worked. However, everything that I tried with dkostan's image worked perfectly. There's something different about the software that's running on some 810s that allows MFSTOOLS to work properly.

[ThreeSoFar]

-s 400 will not work with Hinsdale alone, correct? Have to also run something else (mkswap?), otherwise TiVo sees a zero size swap.

[weaknees]

That's right, but even with mkswap or tpip, it doesn't seem to work out quite right. I don't know that anyone has found a way to increase the swap for these beyond 127 MB reliably, but we have yet to see a green screen, so we're optimistic.

Michael

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by weaknees
That's right, but even with mkswap or tpip, it doesn't seem to work out quite right. I don't know that anyone has found a way to increase the swap for these beyond 127 MB reliably, but we have yet to see a green screen, so we're optimistic.

Michael

Michael: Aren't you guys reliably creating large swap files?

[weaknees]

For competitive reasons, we can't get into the details, but we are still testing ways to increase the swap. In the meantime, we very comfortable that 127 MB hasn't caused any problems in our kits to date. That doesn't remove the theoretical possibility, but we haven't seen it happen.

Michael

[ThreeSoFar]

No progress on backing up an 810 with only its own image?

Best Buy has two $100 rebates that both appear to work right now on it, bringing it down to $800. Very tempting.

[generaltso]

I think we've made a lot of progress. You CAN backup an 810 with only its own image if you have one of the few 810s that work with MFSTOOLS. Even if you don't, a working 810 image is a lot easier to get than a 57H image.

[cap]

Is anyone having any troubles after upgrading with another 810 image?

Before my upgrade I was able to go to tivo.com/manage and use the online thing to see what's coming on tv (I don't have HMO, just using the guide option tivo has). Today is the first I've tried this after upgrading and when I go there I see this message: "Oops! We are unable to determine your channel lineup for this DVR. Make sure you have completed Guided Setup. Please choose another DVR or call Customer Support at 1-877-367-8486."

Also I have 3 Tivos (2 - s1's and the 810 ) in the same room and while burning a dvd last night my tivo somehow managed to stop responding to my remote. ( I have this tivo set to code 3 ).
My wife was using another Tivo set to code 2 in another room and when the 810 stopped responding to it's remote it did start responding to the other remote my wife was using. Eventually I found the 810 had changed codes to match the code the other Tivo was using, but I'm uncertain how this happened. It's not like I went to the system information screen or my wife would be able to figure out how to change the remote code.

[weaknees]

As far as the first issue, it sounds like you have a slightly older version of the OS on the box now than before the upgrade. Is that the case?

Michael

[cap]

Hmm, I didn't write down what version I had before.

I think the current version is 5.21a.

How can I fix this problem? Shouldn't Tivo just download the new software?

[ThreeSoFar]

Forcing dials usually speeds up when it's downloaded.

Once you see a status of "pending restart" in sysinfo, that means the upgrade has downloaded and a reboot will complete it.

[mhc904]

I bought a "returned after Christmas" 810 on Ebay and it seems to work great after I reset everything except there is a faint, fairly continual clicking from the hard drive (I suppose) every 2 or 3 seconds so I'm worried about it going bad. Right before I found the affordable 810, I was fixing to upgrade my ReplayTV with a 250 gig 5400rpm Maxtor that I took out of a Maxtor One Touch external case and replaced with a 120 gig 7200 WD. Since I didn't do the ReplayTV upgrade (giving to mom who will use on low quality), I'd like to use the Maxtor 250 in the 810 if someone could be so kind as to help me get one of the magic images. Thanx for any help you can offer.

[yekim]

Another success story, I was able to use the instructions on this list (and dkostan's image) to upgrade my 810 to 250GB (291 hours). No hickups (though I had to do a 'clear and delete'). Thanks everyone!

[SonyTiVoLover]

Since this thread is already 9 pages long, for the sake of clarity, would someone "officially" update the swap file issue for me?

I've upgraded three TiVos (so I'm comfortable doing so) and just got the Pioneer 810 and want to upgrade with the Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 250GB (L01P250).

I downloaded tivoupgrade's LBA 48 MFStools 2.0 ISO file (thanks tivoupgrade!) and plan to follow dkostan111's (page 1) and tangent1138's (page 2) steps, which seem pretty clear, except for the size of the swap file. I also plan to use Maxtor's Acoustic Management Utility if the noise gets too bad, although I'll probably try it without at first for better performance.

Here's the confusion after reading everything:

dkostan111's instructions:
restore -x -s 400 -zpi /mnt/dos/ptivo.bak /dev/hdc

tangent1138's instructions:
mfsrestore -x -s 400 -zpi /mnt/dos/ptivo.bak /dev/hdc

hinsdale's instructions:
mfsrestore -s 127 -bzpi /mnt/dos/tivo.bak /dev/hdb

Here's the question: Restore with a 127 MB swap file or try with 400? A few posts mentioned mkswap or tpip, but it's unclear what file size one should use to restore. What's the advice?

Thanks to all for a valuable thread.

[generaltso]

If you try to make a swap file bigger than 127MB, you will end up with no swap at all. You really don't have a choice. Use the -s 127 option.

[SonyTiVoLover]

Originally posted by generaltso
If you try to make a swap file bigger than 127MB, you will end up with no swap at all. You really don't have a choice. Use the -s 127 option.

That's what I guessed. Thanks for confirming it general, and for your good earlier posts to the thread as well. Very helpful.

[timmymac123]

I just did an upgrade and have questions:

First what I did:
restore -x -s 400 -zpi /mnt/dos/pioneer.bak /dev/hdc

Then moved the drive to my tivo. Let it boot. Took a while.

Now, I no longer get the blue/green/red backgrounds. WHenever I go to the tivo menu, it just shows through whatever is playing on TV.

Very annoying. is this possible because my swap is not right?

Can anyone give explcit directions on to correctly make the swap file?

And lastly, I have seen mentiond the ability to mount and actually read from the tivo disk. Is this possible without hacking? I was under the impression (with my series 2/4.0) that there was some hack that needed to be put in place. Did that change with 5.0 (pioneer tivos)?

thanks
--tmac

[weaknees]

The backup image that you used was made without the "-f 4138" or "-f 9999" switch. You need another backup image.

Michael

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by timmymac123
I just did an upgrade and have questions:

First what I did:
restore -x -s 400 -zpi /mnt/dos/pioneer.bak /dev/hdc

Then moved the drive to my tivo. Let it boot. Took a while.

Now, I no longer get the blue/green/red backgrounds. WHenever I go to the tivo menu, it just shows through whatever is playing on TV.

Very annoying. is this possible because my swap is not right?

Can anyone give explcit directions on to correctly make the swap file?

And lastly, I have seen mentiond the ability to mount and actually read from the tivo disk. Is this possible without hacking? I was under the impression (with my series 2/4.0) that there was some hack that needed to be put in place. Did that change with 5.0 (pioneer tivos)?

thanks
--tmac

Your swap is not correct, but that does not seem to be the cause of the problem you are observing. When doing your restore, use a -s 127 and the swap file will be created automatically when the TiVo first boots. Note that there is no documented way to create a swapfile creater than 127GB and also no inherent advantage to doing so (fsfix does not work on version 5.2, so its not clear that having a large partition will do anyone any good, anyway).

[generaltso]

ThreeSoFar, the Best Buy "deal" of $800 after rebates isn't a great deal. One Call has the 810H for $699 minus $150 in rebates. That brings the total down to $549 + $31 shipping.

[ThreeSoFar]

Thanks. That's getting closer, anyway....

[SonyTiVoLover]

Originally posted by generaltso
ThreeSoFar, the Best Buy "deal" of $800 after rebates isn't a great deal. One Call has the 810H for $699 minus $150 in rebates. That brings the total down to $549 + $31 shipping.

The $699 price is good. Note that the rebates are valid from any authorized Pioneer reseller. $100 from Pioneer + $50 from TiVo (only if you activate the service). Check out the rebates before you buy so you are sure you can qualify.

[weaknees]

Right - just to be totally clear, that $50 is if you get TiVo Plus - the included Basic doesn't qualify.

Michael

[jorgevon]

I have no replay, but I have a cuestion, I got a sony WebTv Internet Terminal with a wireless keyboard, it looks like a TiVo device, It's a way to make it work with a cablemodem? do I need to change info in WebTv BIOS and how? It's some way to modified the program inside and how?, this machine was dumped by a church and I pick up to see what can I do, I will appreciate whatever you gays can do, otherwise I trow it again.

[sshepherd]

I just picked up a Pioneer 810H as well and haven't been able to get an original image to work with a 300GB Maxtor.

If anyone could help me out with a copy of dkostan111's working image that'd be great, I've got a broadband connection and spare pc running too so I could share it with a few other folks as well.

TIA

[SonyTiVoLover]

Ok, another successful Pioneer 810 upgrade. At the end I've got a question about a clicking hard drive. Thanks for tangent1138's post for pretty much the steps I used. BTW, my Pioneer TiVo was never turned on so the image I pulled from the hard drive was virgin.

1) Created Ptvupgrades's MFStools 2.0 cd with LBA48 support from here: http://www.ptvupgrade.com/downloads/ptv-mfstools2-large-disk.iso

2) Found an old 2 GB hdd, added to my XP PC (which is NTFS) and formatted 2 GB hdd as Fat32

3) Turned off PC, turned off TiVo, disconnected PC system hdd, removed TiVo drive and hooked up drives as follows:

Primary Master - 2GB empty Fat32 drive = hda
Primary Slave - original TiVo drive (80 gb Maxtor) = hdb
Secondary Master - cd-rom drive = hdc

4) Booted PC to bios and changed boot sequence in bios to boot from the cd drive first

5) Booted with MFStools 2.0 cd

6) At # prompt, typed the following commands to mount my fat32 drive:

mkdir /mnt/dos
mount /dev/hda1 /mnt/dos

7) At the next # prompt, typed the following to backup my TiVo drive:

mfsbackup -f 9999 -6so /mnt/dos/ptivo.bak /dev/hdb

8) Unmounted the drives and shut down the system

umount -f -a -r

Pressed Ctrl-Alt-Del to shutdown and reboot. When system started to reboot, I powered down the PC.

9) Removed the original 80GB TiVo drive and replaced it with the Maxtor 250GB drive (Primary Slave, Maxtor L01P250)

10) Booted the PC again with MFStools 2.0 cd

11) At # prompt, typed the following commands to mount my fat32 drive:

mkdir /mnt/dos
mount /dev/hda1 /mnt/dos

12) At the next # prompt, typed the following to restore the backup TiVo image to my new 250GB drive:

mfsrestore -x -s 127 -zpi /mnt/dos/ptivo.bak /dev/hdb

13) Unmounted the drives and shut down the system

umount -f -a -r

Pressed Ctrl-Alt-Del to shutdown and reboot.

14) I allowed the system to reboot the CD intending to load the "copykern" utility. However, I couldn't find the utility on the drive so I unmounted the drives and shutdown the system.

15) I installed the new TiVo hard drive in the TiVo unit and powered up the system. No errors or any problems. I went through a normal system setup and once I was done, I checked the System Information and found I have up to 293 hours.

Now, here's MY question: The hard drive works fine but clicks horribly. Every time I choose an item live the Live TV button, whenever it is playing a recorded show, it clicks like a old phonograph record with a skip in it. Flawless video, just a noisy hard drive.

Is my drive damaged and I can expect it to fail in the near future? Should I return the drive and try with another? I've read other posts about a clicking noise from the hard drive and am wondering if this is normal or maybe a problem with the swap file. Any ideas?

Thanks for the great thread! Another successful Pioneer upgrade!

[weaknees]

We've seen some loud Maxtor 300 GB drives - the QuickView drives that we now carry are much quieter. Have you tried using Amset to turn acoustic management on?

Michael

[SonyTiVoLover]

Originally posted by weaknees
We've seen some loud Maxtor 300 GB drives - the QuickView drives that we now carry are much quieter. Have you tried using Amset to turn acoustic management on?

Michael

Good point; I had forgotten about Amset. I will give that a try and see if it makes a difference. I was concerned the heads might be damaging the disks. I've upgraded 4 TiVos now and don't remember any of the other units making this much noise whenever they accessed the drive.

[weaknees]

The larger drives don't have FDB motors and some other enhancements that the newer smaller versions have, and this includes some acoustic enhancements.

Michael

[SonyTiVoLover]

Here's the million dollar (or at least $150-450) question: does this loud clicking damage the drive or significantly shorten the drive's life expectancy? Should a person take out the drive after every TiVo software version upgrade and backup a new image, just in case you have to replace the drive sooner rather than later?

[weaknees]

We don't think the drive's lifespan is materially shortened by normal noise; in fact, quieting a drive with Amset can cause the drive to produce more heat, thereby shortening its lifespan, so more normal noise may be better.

As far as upgrading with each software rev, it's a good idea, but if you ever need to restore older software, your TiVo should update itself when it next connects to TiVo.

Michael

[SonyTiVoLover]

That sounds right based on past experience. Thank you for the reminder.

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally posted by weaknees
..... in fact, quieting a drive with Amset can cause the drive to produce more heat, ......

Why is this?

[bsnelson]

So, at the end of the day, do we still not know what the difference between the "magic" 810 images and the ones that don't work is?

Since MFSTools is open source now, it should be easier to figure out the differences. In fact, if someone can direct me to a working and a non-working one...

(mind you, I don't have an 810 or a 57, so I wouldn't be able to test it, but I do know a little about the guts of MFStools now... )

Brad

[ChromeAce]

Bought a modified 810 from Weaknees with a 300GB drive in it. It works OK and isn't that noisy, although it definitely is more audible than the original drive (I also have a stock 810 from Best Buy).

The system info screen on the Weaknees unit says it's a 57H, so I assume they're using 57H images in their upgraded 810s.

Question... will a 320GB drive work? I just got one for my PowerMac, a Maxtor. What is the capacity cap on upgrades with these units?

Can I replace the internal IDE DVD-RW drive with a Sony -+RW?

Is there a how-to yet for putting in 2 hard drives? Has anyone done two 320GB drives to go for a world record? ;)

[weaknees]

The 320GB drive should work, as should two, but you can't really leave two in there long-term. The drive in the unit we sold you is a QuickView drive - before we had QuickViews we had a LOT of complaints about the noise of the drives, so we expect the 320 GB drive would seem noisy also.

Michael

[Robert S]

Don't forget the 270Gb limit on the size of individual MFS partitions. You may not be able to expand out to 320Gb in one go.

[tivoupgrade]

Originally posted by weaknees
The 320GB drive should work, as should two, but you can't really leave two in there long-term. The drive in the unit we sold you is a QuickView drive - before we had QuickViews we had a LOT of complaints about the noise of the drives, so we expect the 320 GB drive would seem noisy also.

Michael

This is just not adding up. We've received zero complaints about drive noise in these units (or in any other, for that matter), except it one case - and that was because the swap file was not pro