Automatic soft padding running on the TiVo

[Fozzie]

Originally posted by ccwf
........many live sports events need to be hard padded because they often run long, but soft padding beyond that would be nice to catch some of the cases where an event runs really, really long.

Why not just set up more hard padding for that recording in the first place (or even just a manual recording)? You obviously want to watch the end of the sports event so why take the chance with soft padding which could easily get curtailed by another scheduled recording?

(Not picking holes, just trying to understand your reasoning ;))

[pahunt]

Originally posted by Fozzie

I wouldn't use this either. I use padding to ensure I get the start and ends of recordings. I don't want to start losing the beginnings again because of some random combination of prioritised, negative, positive, soft, hard, season pass, suggestion, user screwed up padding setting :)

But if it was able to be done on a season pass specific basis then you could set it on only the things that are really important. For instance I would hate to find I missed the end of an episode of the next series of 24 because it wanted to record a suggestion straight afterwards.

[Fozzie]

Originally posted by pahunt
For instance I would hate to find I missed the end of an episode of the next series of 24 because it wanted to record a suggestion straight afterwards.
How would that happen? Endpad will add the max amount of end padding you've specified, cancelling any following suggestions, if needs be.

[pahunt]

Originally posted by Fozzie
How would that happen? Endpad already adds the max amount of end padding you've specified, cancelling any following suggestions, if needs be.

I didn't realise it did that! Note to self: must learn to read instructions :D

I still stand by my original point though (albeit with a slightly modified argument ;). I would hate to miss the end of something important to record an episode of something with bad guide data that I've already watched.

[ccwf]

Originally posted by Fozzie
Why not just set up more hard padding for that recording in the first place (or even just a manual recording)? You obviously want to watch the end of the sports event so why take the chance with soft padding which could easily get curtailed by another scheduled recording?

(Not picking holes, just trying to understand your reasoning ;)) It's a good question. For really important events, I obviously do use very large amounts of padding.

However, sometimes a regular season basketball game will go into triple (or even quadruple) overtime, a non-final tennis match will go 21–19 in the fifth set, and so forth. Often, these extraordinarily long events are the best and most exciting events to watch, so it would be nice if TiVo could use soft padding to catch some of these rare cases. However, because they are rare, I don't want to hard pad the numerous normal sports event recordings by 2.5 hours, preempting other recordings, just for the chance that one might turn out to be a game/match for the ages.

[Fozzie]

Looking at 3) from a slightly different angle, isn't it the same as saying I want to hard pad endings but allow follow on recordings to start late?

So, an advantage over TiVo hard padding is that the follow on recording still gets recorded. Downsides are a) the follow on recording is guaranteed to be missing the beginning (whereas the end padded recording may not have actually needed the end padding, if it was running on time) and b) TiVo will not even think about scheduling a possible alternative recording of the follow on programme because it has just recorded it (and doesn't know that it's missed the beginning) and so you are stuck with an incomplete recording.

[pahunt]

Originally posted by Fozzie
Looking at 3) from a slightly different angle, isn't it the same as saying I want to hard pad endings but allow follow on recordings to start late?

So, an advantage over TiVo hard padding is that the follow on recording still gets recorded. Downsides are a) the follow on recording is guaranteed to be missing the beginning (whereas the end padded recording may not have actually needed the end padding, if it was running on time) and b) TiVo will not even think about scheduling a possible alternative recording of the follow on programme because it has just recorded it (and doesn't know that it's missed the beginning) and so you are stuck with an incomplete recording.

I can see what you're saying but I would still prefer to miss the beginning of a "normal" program than the end of something I really wanted.

[Fozzie]

Originally posted by ccwf
Often, these extraordinarily long events are the best and most exciting events to watch, so it would be nice if TiVo could use soft padding to catch some of these rare cases. However, because they are rare, I don't want to hard pad the numerous normal sports event recordings by 2.5 hours, preempting other recordings, just for the chance that one might turn out to be a game/match for the ages.

Understood. Your TDL can't be as busy as mine because the chances of my TiVo being able fit in large amounts of padding between scheduled recordings is pretty slim :) There's even less of a chance that if it did happen, it would a) be on a particular sports event and b) it was that sports event that over ran.

My only concern is for the amount of code that may be needed for these potentially rare occasions and thus introducing more possible things to go wrong. However, Stuart's not daft so I'm sure he won't turn endpad into bloatware if he can avoid it.

[shaunH]

1) A TiVoWeb control panel to turn padding off and on and set the amounts.
2) A TiVoWeb control panel to allow padding settings to be varied either a) per channel or b) per SP/WL
3) Forced end padding, with a following show starting to record a couple of minutes late if need be
[/B]

Hi,

I've been using your excellent script for a couple of days. Cheers :-)

I think that all of the above improvements would be useful, but particularly 2)a the ability to vary padding according to the channel. I find that some channels are bad at keeping programmes to schedule (mainly BBC).

Cheers,

ShaunH

[leejordan]

I would say option 3 would be the most useful.

Lee.

[ccwf]

Originally posted by pahunt
I still stand by my original point though (albeit with a slightly modified argument ;). I would hate to miss the end of something important to record an episode of something with bad guide data that I've already watched. The situation with option (3) is actually the reverse: you might miss the beginning of an important programme so that a show you didn't care about could get end-padded. Furthermore, as Fozzie noted, TiVo would then not try to re-record future showings of that programme so that you could catch the first few minutes.

[Fozzie]

Originally posted by pahunt
I can see what you're saying but I would still prefer to miss the beginning of a "normal" program than the end of something I really wanted.

Ok, but what about if the first recording was No.1 on your SP list and the follow on recording was No.2. You've just lost the beginning of your second favourite programme (which for that particular episode, you may have actually preferred to catch all of it over SP No.1). (This is all also assuming that padding can be applied according to priorities in the SP Manager. If it was a global setting things would be even worse).

Also, you're saying that you'd prefer TiVo to record the incomplete follow on programme rather than not record it and attempt to schedule an alternative showing?

Ok, you can see where I'm coming from. I can't see myself using negative start padding because to me, allowing the beginnings of recordings to be missed is a step backwards. I could possibly see a use if negative start padding could be set on a per SP basis. e.g. take your bottom 10 SPs and set them to start early by up to 'n' minutes if possible but also allow them to start late by 'n' minutes if needs be. (This is slightly different to allowing your top 10 to force end padding - if you did that then you could end up with the situation I mentioned at top of this post). I still wouldn't use it though.

[pahunt]

Originally posted by ccwf
The situation with option (3) is actually the reverse: you might miss the beginning of an important programme so that a show you didn't care about could get end-padded. Furthermore, as Fozzie noted, TiVo would then not try to re-record future showings of that programme so that you could catch the first few minutes.

I did state earlier that I would only use this if it could be done a season pass specific basis and then you could decide if for yourself whether to take the chance of missing the beginning of a subsequent program. The only things I can seriously see me using this for would be 24 and Angel.

The reason I'm so for this is because I had a bad experience with a BBC2 episode of 24. It finished recording during the closing credits and I missed the last 30 seconds that happens after them which had a vital part of the plot in it which I was none the wiser about until people at work told me about it the next day :(

[Fozzie]

Originally posted by pahunt
The only things I can seriously see me using this for would be 24 and Angel.

The reason I'm so for this is because I had a bad experience with a BBC2 episode of 24. It finished recording during the closing credits and I missed the last 30 seconds that happens after them which had a vital part of the plot in it which I was none the wiser about until people at work told me about it the next day :(

Oooops. So why not just set up 5 or more minutes of TiVos hard padding for those 2 SPs then you're guaranteed to get the endings? Endpad doesn't need to do a thing :)

[Fozzie]

Originally posted by shaunH
.........but particularly 2)a the ability to vary padding according to the channel. I find that some channels are bad at keeping programmes to schedule (mainly BBC).

That's true enough. I'd been concentrating more on a per SP basis but per channel could be more useful. That would probably also suit ccwf for his sports channels and the quadruple overtime thingy :)

[pahunt]

Originally posted by Fozzie
Ok, but what about if the first recording was No.1 on your SP list and the follow on recording was No.2. You've just lost the beginning of your second favourite programme (which for that particular episode, you may have actually preferred to catch all of it over SP No.1). (This is all also assuming that padding can be applied according to priorities in the SP Manager. If it was a global setting things would be even worse).

Also, you're saying that you'd prefer TiVo to record the incomplete follow on programme rather than not record it and attempt to schedule an alternative showing?

Ok, you can see where I'm coming from. I can't see myself using negative start padding because to me, allowing the beginnings of recordings to be missed is a step backwards. I could possibly see a use if negative start padding could be set on a per SP basis. e.g. take your bottom 10 SPs and set them to start early by up to 'n' minutes if possible but also allow them to start late by 'n' minutes if needs be. (This is slightly different to allowing your top 10 to force end padding - if you did that then you could end up with the situation I mentioned at top of this post). I still wouldn't use it though.

I get the feeling we're never going to agree on this ;)

I think that the kind of things that you have setup as season passes and wishlists affect how you might look at negative padding. Most of things I watch tend to be on channels such as Discovery, BBC3, UK Gold, Paramount (i.e. channels where guide data is sparse and the 28 day rule doesn't come into play that much). This means that I'm usually not that bothered if I miss the beginning of something as it is often repeated within a fairly short timescale.

If you have lots of new series with good guide data as season passes, negative padding becomes less appealing.

[pahunt]

Originally posted by Fozzie
Oooops. So why not just set up 5 or more minutes of TiVos hard padding for those 2 SPs then you're guaranteed to get the endings? Endpad doesn't need to do a thing :)

Yes but with negative padding I would get most of the subsequent program. Hard padding would give me none of it.

[Fozzie]

Originally posted by pahunt
Yes but with negative padding I would get most of the subsequent program. Hard padding would give me none of it.
But didn't you also say in the post before:
Originally posted by pahunt
This means that I'm usually not that bothered if I miss the beginning of something as it is often repeated within a fairly short timescale.
Seems like an ideal scenario for hard padding, where TiVo will automatically reschedule one of those repeats instead of using negative start padding where that won't happen and you'll end up with a partial recording in Now Playing. I know which one I'd go for :)

[ccwf]

Originally posted by Fozzie
My only concern is for the amount of code that may be needed for these potentially rare occasions and thus introducing more possible things to go wrong. However, Stuart's not daft so I'm sure he won't turn endpad into bloatware if he can avoid it. The code for making this change was posted a long time ago near the beginning of this thread. However, it's not clear how many people want this behavior. Also, adding new features is less important than making sure the code is stable; but since the code does seem to be stable now, I guess the discussion can be reopened.

My opinion is that this should wait until after a web interface is introduced for managing soft padding for individual season passes and channels. Then, this option could be added at the same time to allow soft padding to add to hard padding for particular season passes instead of the default behavior.

[srs5694]

Originally posted by sanderton
Can I gauge how much interest there is in three possible additional features, so I can decide whether it's worth adding them:

1) A TiVoWeb control panel to turn padding off and on and set the amounts.
2) A TiVoWeb control panel to allow padding settings to be varied either a) per channel or b) per SP/WL
3) Forced end padding, with a following show starting to record a couple of minutes late if need be

#2 would be of most interest to me. (Or even something to do the job without TiVoWeb -- say, via a configuration file.) The reason is that some channels are far worse than others at starting/ending on time. In fact, most of the shows I record don't really need the padding, so why use it? It just takes up disk space. As it is, it's better to soft-pad everything just for those that need it than to soft-pad nothing.

[occitan]

Originally posted by sanderton
Can I gauge how much interest there is in three possible additional features, so I can decide whether it's worth adding them:


Many many many thanks, I installed 1.2.5 yesterday evening and it's already saved a couple of late programs !


1) A TiVoWeb control panel to turn padding off and on and set the amounts.


It would be useful to look at the config and possibly modify the settings from TiVoWeb, but I hope you don't make TiVoWeb a requirement for it to run.

This utility is still very interesting for those able to set up a bash prompt over serial, but will rarely use it to connect to the TiVo.


2) A TiVoWeb control panel to allow padding settings to be varied either a) per channel or b) per SP/WL


Not amazingly interesting, but could be a nice extra for some.


3) Forced end padding, with a following show starting to record a couple of minutes late if need be

Please post your thoughts. Ta.

Negative padding on some programs would be a big boon to me, but I guess it must be optional, as there are some who arn't interested.

However, I'd like to suggest a solution that doesn't require TiVoWeb, but relies on existing recording options that can be set through the standard TiVo UI.

How about using the 'Deletion/Expiry date' information for a recording to determine what to do ? Normally, programs that have the default settings, and record one after the other on the same day will have the same expiry date. In this case no -ve padding should be applied.

For programs that one cares more about seeing, one often sets the expiry date later in the week, or for the unmissable programs, to manually delete.

Therefore, if a program B follows program A, and B has an earlier deletion date, then following this scheme B could be negative padded to allow a little more of A to be recorded.

It may be necessary to add another parameter to endpad to set the maximum negative padding to apply, which may be less that the standard end padding.

I guess an adjustment would need to be made to the calculation for a program that spans midnight.

I think using deletion dates would be better than the main alternative which would be using season pass order to determine -ve padding. As every SP recording will always be higher or lower than any other SP recording, -ve padding would happen more often than one might want it to. It also poses a problem on what to do for non SP recordings...

Thanks again for a great addition to the TiVo. I think we should petition TiVo to add it in to a special UK 2.6 s/w release !

Cheers
Guy

[Adlopa]

I cast a vote for 3) Forced end padding. I'm firmly in the camp that I want *all* of a high priority Season Pass rather than a complete episode of a less important follow-on programme that I can manually reschedule from a repeat, if need be.

Forced end padding would be particularly useful for when Sky dumps a half-finished series in a late night slot at random times each week -- something, thanks to usually-outdated EPG data, that a few minutes of soft padding wouldn't catch...

(Soft-padding rocks, btw -- nice one Stuart)

[pwarnes]

Sanderton,

3) gets my vote, even if it applies regardless of priorities etc. I hate losing ends, and would rather lose the beginning than the whole program.

[tivo_boj]

Originally posted by ccwf


My opinion is that this should wait until after a web interface is introduced for managing soft padding for individual season passes and channels. Then, this option could be added at the same time to allow soft padding to add to hard padding for particular season passes instead of the default behavior.

I agree with CCWF. Now the software seems stable, make it user friendly by allowing it to be started,stopped and alterered via tivoweb. Then add the changes to allow to chose either which channels to add padding (BBC of course), then for individual season passes.

I would rather have the current version which is stable rather than a more complex one which may cause crashes or missed programmes

It might be worth to have the simple version as it stand today (named endpad) and a more complex one (endpad plus) so people can choose.

[tdenson]

Sorry, I'm late into this thread, but this is brilliant news. The discarding of overlapping programs is my one and only gripe with Tivo. Can anyone who has actually used this mod tell me if there is any downside to it ?

Tony

[sanderton]

Originally posted by tivo_boj

It might be worth to have the simple version as it stand today (named endpad) and a more complex one (endpad plus) so people can choose.

Yes, that's my thinking at the moment.

[jamieo]

Great program sanderton, installed just now and has added 5 mins to the beginning of the first program that is recording since. :up:

1) A TiVoWeb control panel to turn padding off and on and set the amounts.

Would be nice but is not that important as the code is right now.

2) A TiVoWeb control panel to allow padding settings to be varied either a) per channel or b) per SP/WL

This would be great! I can already see that 10 mins padding on every 30 min program will eat up quite a lot of disc space so this is essential imho. Both a) and b) should be implemented. :)

3) Forced end padding, with a following show starting to record a couple of minutes late if need be

This would also be a great and much needed feature. Of course, it should work along side 2) to be of any real use. ;)

Thanks,

Jamie

[Fozzie]

Originally posted by Adlopa
I cast a vote for 3) Forced end padding. I'm firmly in the camp that I want *all* of a high priority Season Pass rather than a complete episode of a less important follow-on programme that I can manually reschedule from a repeat, if need be.
And this is exactly what TiVo hard padding currently does. It will guarantee that the end padding is applied and will attempt to reschedule the follow on programme automatically for you.

I must be missing something here. What extra does forcing endpad to apply padding give you? All I can see is that it will force TiVo to record a follow on programme with a missing beginning and not automatically try and reschedule a repeat recording for you. Help me out here :confused:

Originally posted by Adlopa
Forced end padding would be particularly useful for when Sky dumps a half-finished series in a late night slot at random times each week -- something, thanks to usually-outdated EPG data, that a few minutes of soft padding wouldn't catch...
How would forced end padding make a difference compared to soft end padding? Sorry, I don't see how the type of padding would change anything. The duration of padding might but how would the type?

[ccwf]

Originally posted by srs5694
#2 would be of most interest to me. (Or even something to do the job without TiVoWeb -- say, via a configuration file.) Well, ultimately, that's how it will probably be implemented—with TiVo Web reading/writing a configuration file that endpad.tcl then reads.

[Adlopa]

Originally posted by Fozzie
And this is exactly what TiVo hard padding currently does. It will guarantee that the end padding is applied and will attempt to reschedule the follow on programme automatically for you.

I must be missing something here. What extra does forcing endpad to apply padding give you? All I can see is that it will force TiVo to record a follow on programme with a missing beginning and not automatically try and reschedule a repeat recording for you. Help me out here :confused:

Oh, hang on, I think I misread Stuart's info. I thought that soft padding negated any hard padding when in fact that seems not to be the case. If hard padding still works, then this isn't a problem.
Originally posted by Fozzie
How would forced end padding make a difference compared to soft end padding? Sorry, I don't see how the type of padding would change anything. The duration of padding might but how would the type?
Again, my point is void if end padding still works with SoftPad, which it seems to when I thought it didn't, thus it isn't and never was. Or something.

[Fozzie]

Originally posted by Adlopa
Oh, hang on, I think I misread Stuart's info. I thought that soft padding negated any hard padding when in fact that seems not to be the case. If hard padding still works, then this isn't a problem.

Yeah, hard padding still works. If Endpad is set to a larger value than the explicit hard padding, it will attempt to increase the overall amount of amount of padding up to the Endpad setting. (And if you get that, you'll get anything!).

e.g. An SP has 3 minutes of TiVo hard padding configured and Endpad is set to add 5 minutes of soft padding. When it get nears to the end of the recording, Endpad will attempt to add an extra 2 minutes to the recording, making the total amount of padding 5 minutes (3 mins hard & 2 mins soft).

[manolan]

Originally posted by ccwf
For changing the settings, it should be a simple matter for endpad.tcl to read the padding settings each time from a file instead of just getting them from the command line. TiVo Web would then only have to overwrite the file with new settings, which would take effect for the next recording to be padded (they would not affect currently recording, already padded programmes near their ends).


I've never played with the internals of the TiVo, but in a normal UNIX daemon, you would generally try to avoid reading the config settings each time round because of the file management overhead. More usual would be to send a signal to the daemon that wakes it up and causes it to refresh the settings before resuming the normal cycle.

[ccwf]

Originally posted by manolan
I've never played with the internals of the TiVo, but in a normal UNIX daemon, you would generally try to avoid reading the config settings each time round because of the file management overhead. More usual would be to send a signal to the daemon that wakes it up and causes it to refresh the settings before resuming the normal cycle. This is true; but I don't know if tivosh has TCL extensions for POSIX signal handling, and we're only talking about reading a file a few times an hour anyways.

[tdenson]

Just started running endpad. All looks OK, can see the process running and the log file seems to show that it's going to do something on the next recording. However, I notice that my Tivo linux shell seems to think that the time is an hour less than it is. I am very reluctant to change it to the real time in case that screws up my Tivo recordings which are all working at the right time. What's going on here - it's 09:17 at the moment and if I type date I get 08:17.

Tony

[ccwf]

TiVo works internally in UTC, not BST.

[tdenson]

Originally posted by ccwf
TiVo works internally in UTC, not BST.

OK, thanks, just never noticed before.

[Bakdraft]

Thanks Stuart,

As everyone has said so far Brilliant. I have a number of friends who have unhacked Tivo's who are now considering Airnet, and Turbonet cards (does anyone have spares??) just on the strength of your patch.

I, like most love it. :up: :up: :up:

I was wondering if you know exactly how many people are running endpad now? Do you keep a count?

Also is your endpad the only version or have some US forum members come up with similar ideas?

Dave

[srs5694]

The endpad program works fine as-is on US TiVos. At least, it works on my Sony SAT-T60 DirecTiVo. (As I've said before in this thread, it doesn't know about the dual tuners, so it doesn't pad everything it could, but it does run and it does pad shows where no others are scheduled around the padded one.) I don't see why it wouldn't run on US SA TiVos.

I expect you'd see an uptick in comments from US users if this thread were moved to the Underground forum (where, IMHO, it belongs). The program was announced on various forums other than this one, but discussion in those threads died out very quickly, presumably because the original announcements all said to come here for further discussions.

[sanderton]

137 people have downloaded the latest version, so something around that I guess! there is no separate US version, although someone with dual tuners said he might try to adapt the code for that machine.

Should this be in the Underground? Well, maybe, but I tend to think of the UK forum as being a thing in its own right, and rarely venture to those places. They keep talking about Series 2 and OS 4 and it gets depressing.

Call me a Little Englander, but I think of myself as be ing a member of the UK forum, and the Underground etc as being quite separate.

However if Gary or Ozsat think it should be moved, then that's their call.

[tdenson]

I've got endpad working successfully but I'm a bit confused as to why I can't see the process running when I do ps. It's definitely running because if I try and run it again it says it's already running. I can also see other user processes I have started (e.g. yac).

[Popeye]

Why does the TIVO not use PDC (Picture Delivery Control) that my video recorder has (ooh, wash my mouth out)?

[Fozzie]

Originally posted by Popeye
Why does the TIVO not use PDC (Picture Delivery Control) that my video recorder has (ooh, wash my mouth out)?

Hmmm, not heard of that one. I've heard of PDC (Programme Delivery Control) but not many channels support it.

[bobnick]

Originally posted by srs5694
I expect you'd see an uptick in comments from US users if this thread were moved to the Underground forum

This is a UK forum and we like our area of the board very much... we don't want have to trek all the way over to some shabby area full of Americans to discuss our software thank you very much! You're welcome to visit any time you like, but moving it to an American area would mean that lots of Brits would then miss it. Endpad adds essential features to Tivo's in the UK - it's not really needed in America due to the fact that most shows start on time!

Mind you, the american areas are graced with Tivo employees - they don't come round here any more.

Popeye: PDC doesn't work well, it's not sent on DTT or DSAT, and Tivo is completely pants at anything VBI related (which is where teletext and subtitles are broadcast)

[srs5694]

Originally posted by bobnick
This is a UK forum and we like our area of the board very much...

Fine, and I'm certainly not trying to take it away from you; my point is just that the software under discussion is in no way UK-specific, except for the fact that the original author is from the UK and uses it on a UK machine. The Underground forum, although perhaps dominated by Americans, is not country-specific, and is dedicated to discussions of hacks like this one.

Endpad adds essential features to Tivo's in the UK - it's not really needed in America due to the fact that most shows start on time!

Many Americans would disagree with this statement -- quite strongly. That said, having no direct experience with British TV, I can't make a direct comparison of UK vs. US scheduling practices. It's quite possible that the situation is worse in the UK than in the US, but that doesn't mean that it's good in the US or that the endpad features are "not really needed" here. Many US networks do not start or end their shows at the scheduled times, and gripes about the lack of soft padding do pop up in the general forums all the time from users on both sides of the pond.

This will be my last comment on this issue; I certainly don't want to start a trans-Atlantic debate over it. I've stated my opinion, I stand by it, but I'm not going to press the issue in any way. I'll continue popping into the UK forum to check the progress of this hack, even though it's the only thread I read here.

[sanderton]

Originally posted by tdenson
I've got endpad working successfully but I'm a bit confused as to why I can't see the process running when I do ps. It's definitely running because if I try and run it again it says it's already running. I can also see other user processes I have started (e.g. yac).

It showes as "tivosh" under ps, I think. Look in endpad.pid to see the process id.

[kitschcamp]

'ps ax' shows it quite clearly complete with run conditions.

[Fozzie]

Simple solution to where this thread should sit:

UK Underground

Why not - there's a few issues that are UK specific - TiVo Web Genres, TCS Weather Module as well as some others. This stuff gets lost in the noise in the main Underground Forum, for most people here.

[JeFurry]

Originally posted by sanderton
1) A TiVoWeb control panel to turn padding off and on and set the amounts.
Would be nice, certainly, but far from vital. However...
2) A TiVoWeb control panel to allow padding settings to be varied either a) per channel or b) per SP/WL
This would be marvellous. BBC tend to run off times, whereas Sky One almost never run late, and the movie channels are spot-on. Per-channel padding would be a big bonus.
3) Forced end padding, with a following show starting to record a couple of minutes late if need be
As always, more options are welcome. This I'd rate as a low-ish priority for my personal needs, but I imagine there are plenty of people who'd welcome it.
EDIT: On reflection, and examining my recording history, I realise there are a lot more programmes that could have been recorded, so I'll up this slightly in my personal priorities to "Very nice, would like it, but option 2 still wins my highest vote". :-)

And I neglected to add... thank you, Stuart and others, for the sterling work you've done on this, one of the longest sought-after additions to TiVo. Well done!

[iankb]

I think that my main reason for (3) being a higher priority is that everything else can be handled manually, and I am already working that way by adjusting my schedules every morning.

What the UK version of the software can't do (and I believe that the US software can) is negative padding. Without resorting to setting-up manual recordings, I cannot start a program late. And I find it more important to know whether the butler did it than to see the original murder which I will soon find out more than enough about.

Ian.

[sanderton]

Originally posted by iankb
I think that my main reason for (3) being a higher priority is that everything else can be handled manually, and I am already working that way by adjusting my schedules every morning.

What the UK version of the software can't do (and I believe that the US software can) is negative padding. Without resorting to setting-up manual recordings, I cannot start a program late. And I find it more important to know whether the butler did it than to see the original murder which I will soon find out more than enough about.

Ian.

It would be easy to knock up a TiVoWeb module to add negative padding to individual To Do List items.

[iankb]

That's a nice idea, but since I don't really want to regularly program my Tivo via Tivoweb (because I prefer the more convenient method of using my TV), it wouldn't be the best solution for me.

Ian.

[sanderton]

Originally posted by iankb
That's a nice idea, but since I don't really want to regularly program my Tivo via Tivoweb (because I prefer the more convenient method of using my TV), it wouldn't be the best solution for me.

Ian.

As you know, the 2.5.5 UI won't take negative numbers, so it's hacking or nothing on that score!

[iankb]

I suppose I was thinking that, as an option, endpad could automatically add negative start padding for me to the next program as an alternative to removing the end padding of the previous program.

Not quite sure how it works at the moment, since I got bored re-reading this ever-growing thread. :D

Ian.

[sanderton]

That's one of the options under consideration.

[iankb]

I'm sure that's how my VCR works, but I use it so rarely, I would have to get the manual out. In practice, it would only work well if you could set a different option for each channel.

Ian.

[Fozzie]

Stuart - could you just outline your thoughts on how forced end padding would work because it could work in a number of quite different ways? e.g.

1. A global setting where any follow on recordings are started late.

2. An SP or channel based setting where only those recordings are 'allowed' to force their end padding.

3. An SP or channel based setting that allows those recordings to have their start times delayed.

4. If the priority of the SP was to be taken into account, this could be done in a couple of different ways:

a. A higher priority programme always causes a lower priority programme to start late.

b. Any programme that is allowed to force it's end padding cannot have its' own start time delayed.

I expect some of the above are either impossible or too complex to achieve anyway. I'm interested in your thoughts.

[sanderton]

I was going to do 1), as it's relatively easy. :) Then 2) if/when SP specific settings are possible.

However don't expect either very soon, as children's birthday parties are eating in to coding time at the moment.

[srs5694]

Originally posted by iankb
I think that my main reason for (3) being a higher priority is that everything else can be handled manually, and I am already working that way by adjusting my schedules every morning.

How would you suggest handling option 2 (adjusting pad values on a per-channel or per-show basis) manually? The only way I can think of would be to constantly monitor the TiVo, stopping and re-starting endpad for individual shows. If that's the solution, it'd be simpler to just abandon endpad and do the job manually from the TiVo user interface.

What the UK version of the software can't do (and I believe that the US software can) is negative padding.

I don't believe the US software can do this. Certainly I've not seen it on any version I've used (through 3.something on my SA TiVo before I sold it). It's conceivable it's a new feature in the 4.0 software, but I've not seen that version, and I don't recall hearing about this feature in it.

[sanderton]

Originally posted by srs5694
How would you suggest handling option 2 (adjusting pad values on a per-channel or per-show basis) manually? The only way I can think of would be to constantly monitor the TiVo, stopping and re-starting endpad for individual shows. If that's the solution, it'd be simpler to just abandon endpad and do the job manually from the TiVo user interface.


There would be a default as at present and a config file containing a list of season passes or channels with each one's individual settings. If no setting is in the file then use the default. Settings file created either manually or via a TiVioWeb module.


Originally posted by srs5694

I don't believe the US software can do this. Certainly I've not seen it on any version I've used (through 3.something on my SA TiVo before I sold it). It's conceivable it's a new feature in the 4.0 software, but I've not seen that version, and I don't recall hearing about this feature in it.

There is a simple hack to add "start late" amounts to the padding menu by altering a string value in the database, have a search in the Underground. Unfortunately it doesn't work on UK TiVos.

[ccwf]

Originally posted by sanderton
If no setting is in the file then use the default. Settings file created either manually or via a TiVioWeb module. Of course, the options are not mutually incompatible. Would make sense to create the file manually at first but in a simple format so that it can later be managed by a TiVo Web module.

[sanderton]

A SP based one would be harder to do manually as the obvious way to do the file would be to create it based on fsids of the season passes - not frantically human readable/createable though!

[ccwf]

It has to be fsid-based, but people could add in a human-readable name as a comment. It is true people would need to get the series IDs in the first place.

[Fozzie]

Originally posted by sanderton
I was going to do 1), as it's relatively easy. :) Then 2) if/when SP specific settings are possible.
Presumeably with 2), those SPs that are allowed to force end padding, would cause a start delay to any follow on recordings (including SPs that themselves are allowed to force end padding).

So with option 1) (global setting), all follow on recordings would be started late and with option 2) all recordings following an 'allow programme to force end padding' would be started late.

Nope, I don't see the benefit of 1) at all :( I can see a possible benefit of 2) (on a per SP basis not channel basis), if the number of SPs that were allowed to force end padding was very small.

[sanderton]

Just depends on how much getting the bong just before the denouement bothers you!

Forced end padding would also cure something I've done more than once - recorded back to back shows on BBC 2 where the end of one is on the start of the next thanks to late running, but watched them in the "wrong" order and deleted the show with ethe end of the previous one before watching it! With forced end padding the end would be in the correct show.

[iankb]

Originally posted by srs5694
How would you suggest handling option 2 (adjusting pad values on a per-channel or per-show basis) manually?

That's easy. Every morning I make sure that the correct programs are going to be recorded in my TDL and manually adjust any padding on each recording if I would otherwise have an overlap. It's incredibly easy, apart from the inability to enter negative padding which stops me entering padding on consecutive programs.

Maybe you are getting confused because, once you start running endpad, you are losing some of that manual control.

Ian.

[sanderton]

I think its more the idea of manually looking at the TDL every morning that is confusing him. It certainly confuses me. :)

For me, it's the fire-and-forget nature of TiVo which makes it so compelling over Sky+ etc.

(You don't lose any manual control with Endpad - if you set padding manually it will not remove it)

[iankb]

Originally posted by sanderton
For me, it's the fire-and-forget nature of TiVo which makes it so compelling over Sky+ etc.

It's a nice idea, but I would miss new series, one-off programs, and anything that clashed. By checking each morning, I also get the chance to reconcile clashes more neatly by rescheduling recordings selectively, based upon future showings. The TiVo will never managed to get the priorities right in all cases, however careful you are to set it up.

Maybe it's because I don't fill up my TiVo with disposable programs such as Friends and other sitcoms, where it doesn't really matter whether you watch it or not, or in which order you watch them. There would be nothing worse than missing one episode out of a series such as '24', because of incorrectly-handled clashes.

Ian.

[sanderton]

Every Sunday morning I sit down with the TV guide from the paper and TiVoWeb to schedule new series and one offs. I run the Conflict Resolver module which highlights any unresolved clashes in the week ahead and use the second TiVo to sort them out (or do it manually if needed). I then run my CBEEBIES deduper to stop us getting 25 episodes of Clifford the Big Red Dog, and manually deselect the four weekly duplicates of The Rugby Club which I've given up reporting on the errors thread after two years of being wrong every week.

Takes 15 mins tops once a week and I can then let TiVo get on with it until the following Sunday.

[iankb]

So you do it once a week, and I do it daily. Not that different. :D

It takes me longer because, with only one TiVo, I find it much harder to manage clashes. A lot of attempts at rescheduling based upon other broadcasts and much breast-beating as I have to discard recordings. :(

I definitely need that extra Sky+ box with dual-recording to handle clashes.

Ian.

[b166er]

Be nice to me. New forum user but not new tivo-er.

Sanderton, is it possible to submit your modification (script?) to Tivo UK and they distribute it as a software patch? I don't know if this is a ridiculous suggestion or not.

[iankb]

Excuse my ignorance, but do TiVo use TCL for routine processing, or do they use compiled languages?

Ian.

[b166er]

It would be cool if they did. Perhaps the popular scripts could be submitted to Tivo UK, and if approved, downloaded as patches that could be started via a backdoor code perhaps.

[iankb]

Now you are showing your ignorance. :D :D :D

TiVo UK was closed down quite a while ago. It is all run from the US nowadays. Customer Services in the UK are run by Sky on TiVo's behalf.

Ian.

[b166er]

Oops

[sanderton]

Originally posted by iankb
Excuse my ignorance, but do TiVo use TCL for routine processing, or do they use compiled languages?

Ian.

Bit of both I think. The heavy duty stuff is compiled into the TCL interpreter as built-in commands, and TCL scripts handle some of the things you need to tweak more easily and quickly than recompiling allows. "myworld", the main TiVo command process, is in fact a TCL interpreter,

[Fozzie]

Originally posted by sanderton
Forced end padding would also cure something I've done more than once - recorded back to back shows on BBC 2 where the end of one is on the start of the next thanks to late running, but watched them in the "wrong" order and deleted the show with ethe end of the previous one before watching it! With forced end padding the end would be in the correct show. Understood & it would be very useful in that situation to overcome poor watching discipline ;) (of course I've never done that!) But would you really want to force all back to back recordings to have the second recording start late for the pretty rare (I would have thought) situation that a)there is a back to back recording in the first place & b) the recordings are on the same channel & c)the first programme really is running late and actually needs the padding in the first place?

It just seems to me that the negatives far outweigh the positives. All hail 1.2.5 - hurrah :)

[pmk]

Can this hack be installed with just a serial cable and the BASH prompt with no need to open the TiVo? No other hacks or extras have been installed. TIA.

[b166er]

As I understand it. You need to put your hard disk in a PC to run some software that allows you to be able to get a bash prompt via serial cable. Then you put the hard disk back in, connect your serial cable, and then you can get a bash prompt and can transfer the script and run it. I've not done it myself yet. I don't have a PC running anything older than win2k and I'm scared of this qunlock thing that can render a disk almost useless.

edit: Additional question:

Can you run TiVoweb over the serial cable or does it need a LAN card?

[pahunt]

I've got both tivoweb and end pad running over a serial cable to a Win XP machine and it works fine. In theory there isn't anything you can do over a proper network connection that you can't do by using a serial cable, it's just that bit slower :)

The best places to start looking are the Black Widow guide (http://black-widow000.150m.com/TiVo-PPP/index.htm) and this thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=1014379)

edit: now link points to the correct thread

[ccwf]

Originally posted by pahunt
In theory there isn't anything you can do over a proper network connection that you can't do by using a serial cable, it's just that bit slower :) Broadcasting and multicasting? I have, in fact, given some thought on how to integrate endpad.tcl into a collaborative scheduling algorithm whereby each TiVo would try to farm out conflicts to other TiVos using multicasting or broadcasting in part for communication. (But since multicasting and broadcasting are unreliable and most people don't have giant numbers of TiVos, I think both are not the right choice for this purpose other than an auto-discovery component, which HMO already does.)

[Dibblah]

Originally posted by pmk
Can this hack be installed with just a serial cable and the BASH prompt with no need to open the TiVo? No other hacks or extras have been installed. TIA.

If you have a non-upgraded machine, you can switch to the alternate boot partition through the serial port using the PROM configuration menus. The alternate partition still contains the 1.3 software, which recognises the shondss, handcraft and runmyworld boot params. It should be similar to the following:

"root=/dev/hda7 shondss=true handcraft=true runmyworld=false"

You then need to mount the current partition, futz with it to install endpad, unmount it, set the bootparms back to normal and reboot.

Overall, it's easier just taking the case off and mounting the drive on a PC ;)

Also, I'm not sure if the PROM presents any config interface on 2.04 (Current version)...

Cheers,

Allan.

[sanderton]

I was going down the "background intercommunication for scheduling conflicts over multiple TiVos" route (easy enough to have scripts listening on a port for conflict info), until I found that it actually required more human interaction than I expected. You could go so far fully automatically, but not far enough to just let them get on with it, so the TiVoWeb module I built was the best compromise for me between manual decisons and machine automation.

I know that are were folks with unsubscribed TiVos who would like to use the second TiVo as a conflict recording slave machine, but my second Tivo is fully working in its own right.

The idea of having several slave TiVos recording conflicts before copying their programmes into the Now Playing of the master was quite intriguing though. One for cyril :)

[sanderton]

Originally posted by b166er
As I understand it. You need to put your hard disk in a PC to run some software that allows you to be able to get a bash prompt via serial cable. Then you put the hard disk back in, connect your serial cable, and then you can get a bash prompt and can transfer the script and run it. I've not done it myself yet. I don't have a PC running anything older than win2k and I'm scared of this qunlock thing that can render a disk almost useless.

edit: Additional question:

Can you run TiVoweb over the serial cable or does it need a LAN card?

Don't worry about the QUULOCK thing - it's only a problem for UPGRADED disks (an even then only one model), there is no issue whatsoever for the factory fit ones.

[b166er]

Originally posted by pahunt
I've got both tivoweb and end pad running over a serial cable to a Win XP machine and it works fine. In theory there isn't anything you can do over a proper network connection that you can't do by using a serial cable, it's just that bit slower :)

The best places to start looking are the Black Widow guide (http://black-widow000.150m.com/TiVo-PPP/index.htm) and this thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=1014379)



Oh my. I read that black widow guide and the thread. It seems to have a tremendous amount of things can go wrong:

- If you have XP or 2K you'll have problems to deal with to get that working.

- If you want to keep your daily call via telephone you'll have to deal with complications to keep that working.

- You might damage your Tivo hard disk if qunlock is run, but if it isn't you can't access your disk, but if it is, it can't be run again etc etc. I'm terrified to put my tivo disk anywhere near my computer now.

- the timezone may be 7 hours out for some odd reason.

Add to that the immense number of steps involved and it's made the choice clear for me. My tivo will remain unhacked. It's a shame. Tivoweb sounds intriguing.

How about this for an idea. Someone setup a machine that will respond to incoming calls. Those of us who want to hack our machines, change our daily call number to the number of that machine. We select "make daily call now" and it dials into that computer but instead of getting a daily call, it gets the changes made that are necessary, but they're made automatically. Not only will the machine be modified so that it accepts incoming PPP calls, it can also receive the popular scripts direct to their correct home. Then we change our daily call number back to normal. Then the only issue we need to deal with is setting up the PC. Does that make sense? Is it possible?

[b166er]

Originally posted by sanderton
Don't worry about the QUULOCK thing - it's only a problem for UPGRADED disks (an even then only one model), there is no issue whatsoever for the factory fit ones.

How about pre-installed upgrade drives? I'm thinking of buying one of those 120GB pre-installed drives.

[ccwf]

Originally posted by sanderton
I was going down the "background intercommunication for scheduling conflicts over multiple TiVos" route (easy enough to have scripts listening on a port for conflict info), until I found that it actually required more human interaction than I expected. You could go so far fully automatically, but not far enough to just let them get on with it, so the TiVoWeb module I built was the best compromise for me between manual decisons and machine automation. It's never going to be possible to make the process fully automatic. That's one of the reasons we have the Recording History after all. But what are some of the problems you forsee with writing an automatic collaborative scheduler?

[sanderton]

The hit rate for being able to just say "doing nothing, record that" was WAY lower than I thought, plus many of the conflicts were generated by high-frequency low-importnace shows that i didn't really care about.

It's not that it didn't work technically, it just didn't solve my problem.

[iankb]

Originally posted by ccwf
... since multicasting and broadcasting are unreliable

Not on a local area network with a reasonable processor. Just read them in an above-normal priority thread and place them into FIFO buffers for processing in another thread. I can happily build up buffers of more than a hundred thousand multicast and unicast messages in a Windows service and never lose one.

Is the problem the poor TiVo processor, the Linux version, the network software, or the fact that it would need to be written in compiled code?

Ian.

[ccwf]

Ah, but what I had in mind would also be able to preempt low priority season passes and wishlists on other TiVos. Farming out conflicts wouldn't be limited to when other TiVos were doing nothing.

[sanderton]

Originally posted by b166er
Oh my. I read that black widow guide and the thread. It seems to have a tremendous amount of things can go wrong
..
I'm terrified to put my tivo disk anywhere near my computer now.
...
My tivo will remain unhacked. It's a shame. Tivoweb sounds intriguing.


Oh dear. :(

Reading the more technical threads can make you feel like that if you haven't actually done it before. But don't worry. First off, the chances of something going wrong is very low. Secondly the chances of you doing anything that can't be fixed with the help of the people on this forum are pretty much nil.

If you really can't face it, perhaps there is someone who lives near you who could help. But whatever, it really isn't that bad or dangerous!

[iankb]

One answer to collaborative scheduling is to unicast the TiVo scheduling events to a PC, process them with PC software, and use TiVoweb to implement the changes. You then get a more powerful processor to receive the unicasts and process the conflicts, and it would not be necessary for the TiVo's to catch unicasts or multicasts with the possibility of them being missed.

Ian.

[Dibblah]

Originally posted by iankb
One answer to collaborative scheduling is to unicast the TiVo scheduling events to a PC, process them with PC software, and use TiVoweb to implement the changes. You then get a more powerful processor to receive the unicasts and process the conflicts, and it would not be necessary for the TiVo's to catch unicasts or multicasts with the possibility of them being missed.

Ian.

Since multicast is not included in the default kernel, you'd also need to roll your own module.

Cheers,

Allan.

[b166er]

Re-posting the overlooked question I asked.

How about this for an idea. Someone setup a PC somewhere that will respond to incoming calls. Those of us who want to hack our Tivos without taking the hard drive out and throwing it in a PC, change our daily call number to the number of the aforementioned PC.

We select "make daily call now" and it dials into that remote computer but instead of getting a daily call, the PC will have been setup to emulate the Tivo centre but not give listings, instead it gives some updates.

Not only will the Tivo then be modified so that it accepts incoming PPP calls, it can also have received the popular scripts direct to their correct place.

Then we change our daily call number back to normal. Then the only issue we need to deal with is setting up the PC. Does that make sense? Is it possible?

[iankb]

I doubt that it would be possible to emulate the TiVo center since that is not a documented interface and involves strong security in the validation of the account.

AFAIK, software updates are normally implemented by downloading a completely new version into an alternate boot partition, and the rebooting into that partition. We would not have legal access to all of the software that would need to be downloaded.

Even if it could be done, the whole process would almost certainly be frowned upon by TiVo who would see it as a way of implementing service theft.

Ian.

[sanderton]

Sledgehammer to crack a nut, that one, I'm afraid.

[iankb]

Originally posted by Dibblah
Since multicast is not included in the default kernel, you'd also need to roll your own module.

Ah!, there you have me. What it is to be totally-ignorant of the ins and outs of Linux, and have to be restricted to professional operating systems. :D

Having said that, you would only need to send unicasts on the TiVo, and I presume that Linux could handle those. Or not?

Ian.

[sanderton]

Originally posted by iankb
One answer to collaborative scheduling is to unicast the TiVo scheduling events to a PC, process them with PC software, and use TiVoweb to implement the changes. You then get a more powerful processor to receive the unicasts and process the conflicts, and it would not be necessary for the TiVo's to catch unicasts or multicasts with the possibility of them being missed.

Ian.

Unless you're cyril, the number of Tivos you have is known to you, as are their IP addresses, and doesn't change, so you can do all the communication peer-to-peer.

The only benefit of coming out to a PC would be if you wanted to throw some processing power at the optimal scheduling, instead of the rather crude (and definitely non-optimal) way that TIvo handles it now. that would apply to a single Tivo as much as network of them.

[b166er]

Originally posted by iankb
I doubt that it would be possible to emulate the TiVo center since that is not a documented interface and involves strong security in the validation of the account.

Good point. I wonder if the handshaking is mostly server driven, in which case reverse engineering the question/answer session wouldn't be too difficult if you just dial-up to it with your PC and figure it all out.

If the server is in charge and says "tell me this, tell me this, accept this, accept this, hang up" then that would be good, because our server wouldn't have to follow that protocol and the user account info wouldn't be even necessary. It could simply says "accept this and hang up".

If, however, the client leads the conversation then it would be more of a pain, with our server needing to be able to respond to any unsolicited query the tivo might make and at some point say "accept this also".

[i]
Even if it could be done, the whole process would almost certainly be frowned upon by TiVo who would see it as a way of implementing service theft.[/B]

Not sure why they'd think it's service theft. It's just another creative way of achieving the hacking :) But if y'all think it's a sledgehammer to crack a nut, because hacking is not all that troublesome anyway, then I guess I'm overengineering the solution :)

[sanderton]

Originally posted by b166er
How about pre-installed upgrade drives? I'm thinking of buying one of those 120GB pre-installed drives.

Disks only get locked in a TiVo; if you configured the drive BEFORE you put it in the Tivo the issue simply doesn't arise.

But as I said, it ONLY effects one particular model of Maxtor. Any other model of Maxtor, and any other brand of disk, there is no issue.

[iankb]

Originally posted by b166er
Not sure why they'd think it's service theft.

Because if you can emulate the center to the extent that you can perform software upgrades, then you can emulate it to the extent that you could download EPG data from an alternate unsubscribed source.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the TiVo didn't use some sort of random session keys (such as Diffie-Hellman) to encrypt part of the communications, so they may be much harder to monitor than you think.

I suspect that you would have trouble hitting the nut with your sledgehammer. :D

Ian.

[sanderton]

I think they have got this going to some extent in Aus; I beleive they can recofigure their TiVos to pick up guide adat slice files from an IP addres they specify. Let's hope we don't have to go down that route a while. :(

[iankb]

Originally posted by sanderton
... the number of Tivos you have is known to you, as are their IP addresses, and doesn't change, so you can do all the communication peer-to-peer.

Which was why I was suggesting peer-to-peer unicasts, and not multicasts. The reason why I prefer UDP rather than TCP is that, being connectionless, you do not need to worry about machines going up and down, and you will never hang on a broken connection. However, because there is no handshaking protocol, you need to capture and buffer UDP datagrams on a higher-priority thread.

On a LAN, they can work very well for the processing of event data. I even use them on the Internet, 'though the Internet has a habit of losing data without handshaking.

Ian.

[b166er]

Good about the Maxtors :)

Well it was interesting to talk about the server idea. Sorry it's somewhat off-topic for this thread (as are the upgrade talks)

[ccwf]

Actually, many people assign addresses to their TiVos via DHCP and, judging from some of the posts to the Help Center forum, are not necessarily aware of the IP addresses of their TiVos. In fact, there's been more than one case of TiVo owners configuring their TiVos to use a neighbour's wireless access point. :)

[sanderton]

I don't think our series ones "do" DHCP, do they? I've not seen the option. It would be useful if they did as my router ahs a bug which means it can only port forward to a DHCP assigned address.

[alunj]

Stuart,
is there a problem with endpad bailing out after a while ?
It seems to run well for me for a couple of days then end with nowt in the logs

Alun

[occitan]

Sorry for posting my tuppence worth so long after the orriginal post !

Originally posted by Fozzie
Stuart - could you just outline your thoughts on how forced end padding would work because it could work in a number of quite different ways? e.g.

1. A global setting where any follow on recordings are started late.

2. An SP or channel based setting where only those recordings are 'allowed' to force their end padding.
...


As many have said, (1) isn't going to be much use. (2) and some of the other options could be very useful.

Like Ian, I would hope for a solution that wouldn't need TivoWeb.

What about 2b. using the deletion date rather than SP/channel settings.

E.g if the first recording was "Never Delete" and the second recording was 'Delete when space needed" then the end pad on the first recording is forced.

I'd posted this thought some pages earlier, but noone commented on it. Apologies for raising it again if the reason for the lack of comments was you were all just being polite and didn;t want to say this was an insane idea....

[sanderton]

Originally posted by alunj
Stuart,
is there a problem with endpad bailing out after a while ?
It seems to run well for me for a couple of days then end with nowt in the logs

Alun

Not that I'm aware of. If it crashed with an error you'll see that error listed on screen when you re-run it. It would be useful to see that error code if there was any?

[sanderton]

Originally posted by occitan
Sorry for posting my tuppence worth so long after the orriginal post !



As many have said, (1) isn't going to be much use. (2) and some of the other options could be very useful.

Like Ian, I would hope for a solution that wouldn't need TivoWeb.

What about 2b. using the deletion date rather than SP/channel settings.

E.g if the first recording was "Never Delete" and the second recording was 'Delete when space needed" then the end pad on the first recording is forced.

I'd posted this thought some pages earlier, but noone commented on it. Apologies for raising it again if the reason for the lack of comments was you were all just being polite and didn;t want to say this was an insane idea....

There are many ways you could do it - we could probably all come up with one each. :)

Personally I would prefer a system where it was very clear what will happen in all circumstances, which points to either global or individually specified options, rather than implicit ones such your suggestion or the one for using SP priority to decide.

[iankb]

Originally posted by sanderton
Personally I would prefer a system where it was very clear what will happen in all circumstances ...

As would I, and all control freaks everywhere. :)

Ian

[sanderton]

EndPad 1.2.6 now up.

This fixes a bug I found yesterday which could cause EndPad not to load after a TiVo reboot if it was in rc.sysinit.author, because the PID it had pre-reboot was active again with another process.

[pahunt]

I just installed 1.2.6 and gave the Tivo a quick reboot. Approx 1 minute later while watching a recorded program the screen when black and then "Welcome, powering up" :eek:

A coincidence ?

[pahunt]

Well after a second "unplanned" reboot I managed to stop endpad and this seems to have cured the problem. Is there anything I could have done wrong (permissions etc.) that would cause this?

[sanderton]

Well the only difference between 1.2.5 and 1.2.6 is that 1.2.6 deletes the endpad.pid file come what may, while 1.2.5 checked to see if there was an active process with the same number as was contained in the PID first. So it's hard to see how that could restart the TiVo, especially as that has happened before you'll even see the Now Playing screen.

Check 1) the kernel log to see what happened immediately before the restart, 2) endpad.err if it exists and 3) the Ednpad log, comparing the time of its logged actions to the time of the reboot in the kernel log.

[sanderton]

Also, if you could post your rc.sysinit.author file that might give a clue.

Is it possible that you haven't updated rc.sysinit.author to have the start and end parameters, and it's trying to set the end padding to "-auto"? That's all I can think of at the moment!

[pahunt]

Can I check that you have updated the log message as it still tells me it's starting up 1.2.5.

[sanderton]

Yes, the message has been updated to read 1.2.6.

You often have to refresh your web browser to see the latest zip file, it's a bug in IE.

The finger of suspicion moves away from 1.2.6 then. :)

[pahunt]

I think the finger of suspicion is now pointing at my telnet client.

I can't use FTP at the moment (another story) so I have been transferring files using rz from telnet. However something must have happened when I transferred it the first time because I've just done it again and it seems OK now. The log is now reporting 1.2.6 and no reboots yet. :)

Thanks for your help

P.S. I think the bug in IE is unlikely to have affected me, especially as I'm using Firebird ;)

[Fozzie]

Originally posted by iankb
As would I, and all control freaks everywhere. :)

Ian

You're not a Virgo too Ian? - everything nice and orderly ;)

I agree with keeping things straightforward & predictable. It would be a real nause to lose a recording because of some combination of padding settings (that I hadn't thought about) kicking in.

[iankb]

No I'm a Gemini. And I like it as complicated and flexible as possible, but predictable. :D

Ian.

[sanderton]

Originally posted by iankb
No I'm a Gemini.

Now ther's off topic and off topic, but that is off topic!

[iankb]

You didn't like the bit about 'And I like it as complicated and flexible as possible, but predictable' ? :D

Ian.

[srs5694]

Originally posted by sanderton
I don't think our series ones "do" DHCP, do they? I've not seen the option. It would be useful if they did as my router ahs a bug which means it can only port forward to a DHCP assigned address.

TiVo added unofficial DHCP support to 3.x software. With 3.x, you enter an undocumented but well-known dialing prefix (401, IIRC) into the phone prefix and the system uses DHCP over a TurboNET or TiVoNET (for Series 1 units; over USB-to-Ethernet for Series 2). With later software, DHCP is officially supported, but I don't know offhand how it's activated -- if there's an explicitly labeled option somewhere or if you've got to use the dialing prefix trick.

I don't see why a Series 1 running older software couldn't be hacked to support DHCP, but I don't know of any instructions for doing so, and I've not tried it myself. You'd need to cross-compile a DHCP client, or extract one from a 3.x or later Series 1 TiVo software image (chances are the binary from a US image would even work on a UK TiVo), then plug it into the TiVo startup scripts. Personally, I think it's simpler to just use a static IP address, but if your router has a bug, as you describe, it might be worth the effort to try it.

[alunj]

Stuart
It did produce an error in enndpad.err
here you go

----------

Sleeping, checking every minute for kill signal............................
Wednesday 00:55:00 : Woken up
Wednesday 00:55:00 : Recording {Swiss Toni} on BBC3 now
Wednesday 00:55:00 : Recording Scheduled End Time: 01:00
Wednesday 00:55:00 : Next recording is {Cosmetic Surgery: Pursuit of Perfection} on DISCOV at 01:00

expected integer but got "$nextrecfsid"
while executing
"db $db openid $recfsid"
("uplevel" body line 2)
invoked from within
"uplevel $body"
invoked from within
"transaction {uplevel $body}"
(procedure "RetryTransaction" line 5)
invoked from within
"RetryTransaction {
set rec [db $db openid $recfsid]
set state [dbobj $rec get State]
if { $state != 6 } {
dbclose $db
return 0
} else {
dbob..."
(procedure "DeleteSuggestion" line 7)
invoked from within
"DeleteSuggestion {$nextrecfsid}"
(file "/var/hack/endpad.tcl" line 362)
expected integer but got "$nextrecfsid"
while executing
"db $db openid $recfsid"
("uplevel" body line 2)
invoked from within
"uplevel $body"
invoked from within
"transaction {uplevel $body}"
(procedure "RetryTransaction" line 5)
invoked from within
"RetryTransaction {
set rec [db $db openid $recfsid]
set state [dbobj $rec get State]
if { $state != 6 } {
dbclose $db
return 0
} else {
dbob..."
(procedure "DeleteSuggestion" line 7)
invoked from within
"DeleteSuggestion {$nextrecfsid}"
(file "/var/hack/endpad.tcl" line 362)

[sanderton]

That bug got fixed already; install 1.2.6 and you should be OK.

[gyro]

Originally posted by sanderton
1.2.2 is now in the first post. Fixed a couple of potential bugs, and made the timing elements more robust.

I've taken a saftety first approach and if a suggestion is followed immediately by a scheduled recording I've not added start padding. This is until I can confirm that it is the suggestion that gets deleted, not the scheduled recording in those circumstances. Suggestions that follow a scheduled recording and clash with the padding are now expressly deleted instead of relying on the clash to do it.

I am running 1.2.6 and was wondering about what now happens with a suggestion immediately followed by a scheduled recording. Does start padding delete the suggestion?

[sanderton]

No, a suggestion before a scheduled recording will record as normal and the soft start padding will not be added to the scheduled recording. this because, as I feared, if you just try to add the start padding the scheduled recording gets cancelled, not the suggestion.

I'm personally inclined to leave it that way, rather than delete a perfectly good suggestion which has almost finished recording for the sake of the start padding.

But if others feel differently I can revisit that bit of code (once I figure out how to kill an in-progress recordng gracefully).

Let me know.

[TivoTown]

I really would like Endpad on my Tivo but have to say that I'm a bit daunted by the serial cable PPP method and I don't fancy spending the £50+ for TurboNet.

I've already upgraded my HDD to 120GB using the Hinsdale method and was happy with the instructions. Is there any way of me getting a supplementary image of a UK Tivo with TivoWeb and Endpad already installed or is that just plain stupid?

[sanderton]

You could in theory pull your hard disk out, attach it to your PC, boot with one of the TiVo boot CDs and manually copy over the endpad.tcl file and edit rc.sysinit.author to start it up automatically.

But without a connection of some kind you would not be able to stop or restart Endpad (without rebooting), or change the settings.

Personally I'd feel a bit uneasy at not being able to control it!

[SolidTechie]

Stuart,

I've been running v1.2.5 for a dew days now -I haven't had a chance yet to install 1.2.6, and I'm not having any problems, but I will get around to it hopefully at the weekend.

One observation though, I'm using LJ's Now playing with Sort module for TiVoWeb which also lists the duration(s) of shows - but it still lists the time as the original length of a programme - not the padded length. This may be appropriate and correct, but thought it was worth mentioning....

[sanderton]

The TiVo database stores a value for duration (which is what LJ uses) based entirely on the scheduled duration. The padding values are held separately in the database; you have to add them on to get the real recorded duration.

[LJ]

Originally posted by iancdbutcher
I'm using LJ's Now playing with Sort module for TiVoWeb which also lists the duration(s) of shows - but it still lists the time as the original length of a programme - not the padded length. This may be appropriate and correct, but thought it was worth mentioning....

Pah! Someone spotted my sloppy programming ;) :p I'll post an updated version "soon".... :D

[srs5694]

Originally posted by TivoTown
I really would like Endpad on my Tivo but have to say that I'm a bit daunted by the serial cable PPP method and I don't fancy spending the £50+ for TurboNet.

I've not tried this, but you should be able to control it via a serial cable running a bash prompt. Do as sanderton suggests and install it by copying it onto the hard disk on a PC, then run a serial cable, configure bash to run on it, and run a terminal program on your PC. That's much simpler than PPP and much cheaper than TurboNET. You'll need to dig up more detailed instructions on getting a bash prompt over serial, though. I don't have any pointers offhand, but I expect there's a FAQ or a pointer to a FAQ on this on the Underground forum.

[pahunt]

Originally posted by srs5694
I've not tried this, but you should be able to control it via a serial cable running a bash prompt. Do as sanderton suggests and install it by copying it onto the hard disk on a PC, then run a serial cable, configure bash to run on it, and run a terminal program on your PC. That's much simpler than PPP and much cheaper than TurboNET. You'll need to dig up more detailed instructions on getting a bash prompt over serial, though. I don't have any pointers offhand, but I expect there's a FAQ or a pointer to a FAQ on this on the Underground forum.

As I understand it that should work, although to be honest getting to bash is the trickiest part. Once you are there then it's just a matter of editing a few files on the Tivo and setting up a modem and connection in Windows. The best place to find out about all this the Black Widow (http://black-widow000.150m.com/TiVo-PPP/) guide. Just follow the instructions up to the "Getting to Bash" section and ignore the PPP stuff if you want.

[TivoTown]

Thanks guys, I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and do it the correct way.

[mas]

Moderators - Can this thread be made sticky ?

[djrowley]

Just wanted to add my thanks for endpad - installed and working in 30 seconds. It's been running for a day now without drama. If it continues OK for the next few days I will add to rc.sysinit.author

David

[tivo_boj]

working withouut hitch all week, already I rely on it......best thing that happend on this forum in the past year-18months

[bobnick]

agreed!

[producer]

Will this work on a US TiVo running v3.0?

It sounds cool.

[sanderton]

Yes.

[mark.stringer]

Just a quick thanks to Stuart for creating Endpad. As someone else said it is the best thing to happen program wise in ages. I wish I had had it when 24 and 24 day 2 were on as it often did not run on schedule.

Thanks,
Mark.

[Tony Hoyle]

Best bit of Tivo software in ages!

I've also gone to max. resolution on my Tivo at the same time, and installed the email thingy... Great stuff!

[djrowley]

Originally posted by Tony Hoyle
Best bit of Tivo software in ages!

I've also gone to max. resolution on my Tivo at the same time, and installed the email thingy... Great stuff!

Ooh, what's the email thingy, and what does it do?

David

[bobnick]

Have a look at DailyMail in this forum!

[Fatbloke]

Quick question:
I'm currently awaiting my first recording under endpad!.. and have been checking the TiVoweb logs to see how endpad is thinking. How big will/could the endpad log get? And is there any housekeeping to keep it to a managable level (whatever that happends to be)?

[sanderton]

It resets at midnight, with the previous day's log retained.

[Fatbloke]

Nice one. :)

[Fatbloke]

:up: :up: :up:
Nice bit of coding there!

1 question: how can I change the rc.sysinit.author file? Its marked as read only on my system and even chmod 777 doesn't make it writable :confused:

Also, it might aid others to add to your first post just where rc.sysinit.author sits in tivo (i.e. in etc/rc.d)

Once again, well done. :cool:

[SolidTechie]

Originally posted by Fatbloke
[B1 question: how can I change the rc.sysinit.author file? Its marked as read only on my system and even chmod 777 doesn't make it writable :confused: [/B]

You need to make the partition writable first, and don't forget to make it read only again when you've made the changes....

HTH..

[sanderton]

I assumed that people had made chnages to rc.sysyint.author before and therefore didn't need instructions on that bit!

But for reference:



cd /etc/rc.d

mount -o remount,rw /

[edit rc.sysinit.author with whatever editor you have]

mount -o remount,ro /

sync

[AMc]

Hi, this sounds so good :D
I've read through this whole thread and I've followed the links to Mr Tickle's setting up serial thread and the blackwidow guide. I've successfully upgraded my Tivo, but I'm frankly pretty scared by the walkthroughs and guides for getting to a BASH prompt over serial to get endpad on my Tivo.

I'd really like to be able to install and occassionally reconfigure endpad but I'm very scared of hurting my Tivo.

I know this is a lot to ask but I also know there are some fantastic, clever and generous people on here (grovel grovel)...

Is anyone prepared to assemble an idiots guide to turning an unhacked UK Tivo into a UK Tivo with serial control and endpad installed and running?.

Basically if someone was prepared to put together a step by step guide dedicated to this task I'd be happy to send a few quid to the charity of their choice/their beer fund.

[Fatbloke]

Originally posted by sanderton
I assumed that people had made chnages to rc.sysyint.author before and therefore didn't need instructions on that bit!

But for reference:



cd /etc/rc.d

mount -o remount,rw /

[edit rc.sysinit.author with whatever editor you have]

mount -o remount,ro /

sync




OK, what have I done wrong here then...?
I did the above, FTP'd the rc.sysinit.author off onto my desktop and added the endpad line. My rc.sysinit.author now looks like the following:

/var/hack/tivoweb-tcl/tivoweb
/var/hack/endpad.tcl 0 5 -auto >> /dev/null &

I FTP'd the file back to Tivo, did the mount -o remount,ro / and the sync.
Finally I restarted the whole machine (power off) since I needed to update Tivoweb after the clock change.

Anyway... after restart, neither Tivoweb nor Endpad restarted. :(

I needed to manually restart both from Telnet.

Any suggestions?

[pahunt]

Did you chmod 755 rc.sysinit.author after you FTPed it back?

[iankb]

... and did you use a Linux-compatible editor to edit the file?

Ian.

[Fatbloke]

I'm ok on the editor - used Ultra edit and said NO to the 'convert to dos' prompt.

Checking the file, it's sitting there with rw-r--r-- at the moment - no Execute I notice... I'll give it a chmod to see if it helps.

I posted the original question just in case I needed a ; or , after the first line. I didn't think about the properties of the file...

[pahunt]

Originally posted by Fatbloke
I'm ok on the editor - used Ultra edit and said NO to the 'convert to dos' prompt.

Checking the file, it's sitting there with rw-r--r-- at the moment - no Execute I notice... I'll give it a chmod to see if it helps.

I posted the original question just in case I needed a ; or , after the first line. I didn't think about the properties of the file...

You'll only get this kind of permission problem if you transfer the file back and forwards. If you edit it directly on Tivo then the permissions are preserved but if you FTP off and back on again then the permissions get reset.

[ccwf]

You might be able to do “site chmod 755 rc.sysinit.author” from your FTP client, which may or may not be more convenient than running chmod from a shell on the TiVo.

[Fatbloke]

Sorted - it was the chmod after all. :)

[doubledrat]

Originally posted by AMc

Is anyone prepared to assemble an idiots guide to turning an unhacked UK Tivo into a UK Tivo with serial control and endpad installed and running?.

Basically if someone was prepared to put together a step by step guide dedicated to this task I'd be happy to send a few quid to the charity of their choice/their beer fund.

I can imagine this is very scary for the uninitiated. I've done my own, and came up against some obstacles. I'm now going to do it for 2 friends, so I'll make an effort to document it while I do it and post the results.

in the meantime, here's some pointers -

always do a backup BEFORE you mess with your tivo!

if you boot from the mfstools cd, you won't be able to mount the tivo partitions unless you "byteswap" the tivo drive(s) before you boot linux. search the forums for "byteswap"

I found that when I booted from floppy I couldn't access my DOS hd (where I'd put all the source files and my tivo backup) - presumable because all the drives are byteswapped when booting from the floppy.

The tivo binaries come bundled in a sub directory called tivo-bin, but the instructions for adding them to your path states /hack/bin - they should say /hack/tivo-bin

Most importantly it IS worth the effort. Thanks again Stuart for a fantastic hack :D

Bob

[pahunt]

Originally posted by doubledrat
if you boot from the mfstools cd, you won't be able to mount the tivo partitions unless you "byteswap" the tivo drive(s) before you boot linux. search the forums for "byteswap"

This isn't an issue if you use the Kazymyr boot CD that is recommended in the Black Widow guide.

[doubledrat]

does that one byteswap the hdb and hdc? only I'm unable to have my machine boot a cd in that config, so my tivo disks have to be hdc and hdd

[pahunt]

Originally posted by doubledrat
does that one byteswap the hdb and hdc? only I'm unable to have my machine boot a cd in that config, so my tivo disks have to be hdc and hdd

AFAIK it byteswaps everything apart from hda.

[AMc]

doubledrat - if you managed to do a step by step I'd very grateful. I've got a 3 week old baby so I'm not getting a lot of spare time to play with Tivo and the PC right now.
If you don't manage it then I guess I'll have to take the plunge myself and try and write the guide too at some point.

That said a TurboNet is quite tempting as Tivo sits next to a wireless AP/repeater for the PS2online...so many toys so little time :)

[alphabeta]

Like a lot of people the idea of endpad was compelling enough for me to finally get my Tivo in bits to do some hacking.

As several people have alread said, I found all the overlapping instructions rather confusing. I have tried to write down my own "simple" guide using all the steps I did this afternoon at:
http://www.pinedragon.com/tivo/endpad_instructions.html.

To make life simple just to install endpad I've tried a novel approach. Rather than getting a Bash prompt and then install endpad via Bash or PPP I've copied endpad directly on to the Tivo. The code in there should also enable Bash in case you need in in the future, but I haven't tested this. At this stage the process should be regarded as only being at the "testing" level, so don't assume it will work and please provide feedback to this thread.

Anway, feel free to try this (at your own risk). Hopefully this will help some of the people wanting simple instructions! Also comments from experts who can review the code would be useful.

Congratulations and thanks to all the authors of the excellent "how tos" and tools to make this possible.

[sanderton]

The only comment I'd make, alphabeta, as that it would be wise to insert a note that users of Windows XP should be very careful not let their PCs boot into Windows if following these instructions, as that could prevent their TiVos from booting.

[alphabeta]

Good point! I thought about putting an "XP warning" in then forgot it again. Its in there now.

Great tool Stuart. Why couldn't Tivo have written that themselves ;-)

[iankb]

Is there any reason why an MFSTools 2 boot CD can't be used instead of a Kazymyr boot CD plus MFSTools 1.1 files? Seems a little easier, and more up-to-date.

Ian.

[sanderton]

I use a CD burned from the image of the TurboNet install disk, as it seems to have most stuff on it.

[pahunt]

Originally posted by iankb
Is there any reason why an MFSTools 2 boot CD can't be used instead of a Kazymyr boot CD plus MFSTools 1.1 files? Seems a little easier, and more up-to-date.

Ian.

The advantage that the Kazymyr CD has over MFS Tools is that it enables byteswapping by default which can make the process a little easier.

[alphabeta]

Paul, Ian,

Yes the byteswapping was the reason why I chose Kazymyr. I also don't know if MFS tools 2 CD does an auto Qunlock.

I agree having MSFtools2 on the CD would be nice though!


Iain

[doubledrat]

Hi. great start. a few suggestions -

The possible need for qunlock needs a mention (if the tivo drive does not report the correct size - use shift pageup to check). Or is that only necessary for mfstools?

Can you get away with just the A drive of a 2 drive tivo for this operation? I presume you can.

You should mention that there might not be both a 4 and a 7 partition e.g. if it's an upgraded tivo

at the end, the umount can be made simpler with -

umount -a

the cp might be less prone to error like this -

cp /mnt/7/etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit.author /mnt/4/etc/rc.d

I can imagine non unix people omitting the "." same goes for the other cp(s) - either that or elaborate that the "." neans current directory and it's not just there as punctuation!

the bit where endpad is added to .author, say that "2 5" means 2 mins start pad and 5 mins end pad - not everyone knows what a "parameter" is. Or perhaps if you don't know what a parameter is you shouldn't be attempting this!

How about getting them to put the tivo binaries in /var/hack while they're at it? It's only a couple more steps...

Bob

[pahunt]

Originally posted by alphabeta
Paul, Ian,

Yes the byteswapping was the reason why I chose Kazymyr. I also don't know if MFS tools 2 CD does an auto Qunlock.

I agree having MSFtools2 on the CD would be nice though!


Iain

MFSTools definitely doesn't qunlock automatically, it has to be done manually.

[sanderton]

Are you sure? Last time I upgraded a machine I used 2 and I'm sure I saw "unlocking hdb" flying past in that initial flurry of text.

[racingclub]

Are you sure? Last time I upgraded a machine I used 2 and I'm sure I saw "unlocking hdb" flying past in that initial flurry of text.

I remember noticing that as well...........

[pahunt]

Originally posted by sanderton
Are you sure? Last time I upgraded a machine I used 2 and I'm sure I saw "unlocking hdb" flying past in that initial flurry of text.

Well when I upgraded from my original 40GB Maxtor I ran qunlock because the BIOS was reporting it it 10MB but I suppose it's possible that I didn't actually need to do it and MFS Tools would have done it anyway. But that wasn't the impression I got from reading Hinsdale.

EDIT: I've had a quick look at the latest Hinsdale instructions and it definitely still talks about putting qunlock on a floppy and booting from that first.

[alphabeta]

I definately sure a "qunlocking" message from Kazymyr Boot CD. Actually Hinsdale (MFS 1 version) seems to explain the answer:
The Boot Cd will generally automatically unlock any TiVo locked Quantum drives. However, if your TiVo comes with a Maxtor drive or are using a new Quantum or Maxtor (some newer Maxtors have Quantum firmware and components) hard drive in your planned upgrade, then you may require another utility to unlock this drive if it is ever placed into the TiVo for testing/use and then removed later for further upgrading steps.
So it seems that for the basic activity in this script you may need to do a manual QUNLOCK if your Tivo comes with a Maxtor drive. Does this apply in the UK?

Doubledrat Bob has made some good comments about improving the Unix command line. I'll try and include some of these ideas.

On the question of supporting dual-drives and upgraded Tivo's I avoided these partly to keep things simple and partly because I couldn't test them. If would be helpful if someone can send me a modified page to cover these cases it would be useful.

Bob is also right that I deliberately wrote the document to assume a certain amount of knowledge to try and filter users to people who have a certain basic level of skills/knowledge.

What are the "Tivo binaries"?

[pahunt]

Originally posted by alphabeta
I definately sure a "qunlocking" message from Kazymyr Boot CD. Actually Hinsdale (MFS 1 version) seems to explain the answer:

So it seems that for the basic activity in this script you may need to do a manual QUNLOCK if your Tivo comes with a Maxtor drive. Does this apply in the UK?

All becomes clear!

Originally posted by alphabeta

What are the "Tivo binaries"?

They are some standard unix commands that tivo doesn't have, such as ls, ps etc. Take a look at section 4.2 in the Steve Jenkins Guide (http://tivo.stevejenkins.com/network.html)

[Dibblah]

Originally posted by alphabeta
Actually Hinsdale (MFS 1 version) seems to explain the answer:


Be careful here. Only use Qunlock on ORIGINAL quantum disks, that have been locked by the Tivo. There is a specific issue with certain Maxtor disks that causes them to fail (After qunlock, they are permanently limited in size). I'm guessing that other issues may also occur with other manufacturers, since (AFAIK) the size lock is not part of the ATA standard.

Cheers,

Allan.

[blindlemon]

Originally posted by Dibblah
There is a specific issue with certain Maxtor disks that causes them to fail (After qunlock, they are permanently limited in size). AFAIK the latest evidence (and my own experience) suggest that this is only a problem if you run qunlock on a maxtor drive that is not locked.

See towards the end of this thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122008) for more info.

[LJ]

Originally posted by iancdbutcher
One observation though, I'm using LJ's Now playing with Sort module for TiVoWeb which also lists the duration(s) of shows - but it still lists the time as the original length of a programme - not the padded length.

Version 2.8 just posted - it now has an extra field showing the total padding (if there is any) - e.g.: "45 +5" shows the programme is 45 minutes long with a total of 5 minutes padding.

[doubledrat]

Originally posted by LJ
Originally posted by iancdbutcher
One observation though, I'm using LJ's Now playing with Sort module for TiVoWeb which also lists the duration(s) of shows - but it still lists the time as the original length of a programme - not the padded length.

Version 2.8 just posted - it now has an extra field showing the total padding (if there is any) - e.g.: "45 +5" shows the programme is 45 minutes long with a total of 5 minutes padding.

endpad only adds the padding 5 mins before it's needed, so you won't see it in any list of shows to be recorded...

If you want some assurance that it's working, you need to check 0endpad.log and endpad.log in /var/log

I use

grep -i added /var/log/*endpad.log

[sanderton]

Now Playing contains stuff which has been recorded. :)

[doubledrat]

duh! yeah, read "now playing" and thought "todo" :)

[alphabeta]

Thanks to you all for your comments. I have updated my "how to" with the latest thinking on "qunlock" and some other improvements.

The "how to" is (still) at:
http://www.pinedragon.com/tivo/endpad_instructions.html

[groovyclam]

Do MFSTools 1.1 backup version 2.5.5 fully ?

I say this as the first person to fall victim to the problem when trying to upgrade my disk just after the 2.5.5 upgrade was released in the UK. Rob had to send me a disk image on CD to get out of a right pickle after we all found out 2.5.5 needed special backup parameters and/or an updated MFSTools.

Can someone with more knowledge than me confirm what version of MFSTools and what parameters are required for a *complete* divorced UK 2.5.5 backup...

[Rob Nespor Bellis]

Yes and no.

MFStools can backup fully a UK 2.5.5 machine as long as you use the -l 32 parameter in the backup command.

However, when you use the -s parameter ( to "shrink" the backup, or divorce it ) it may go back to a 30GB or 40GB image, but *only* if all the streams you are backing up are contained in the first 30 or 40GB.

This should not be an issue if you performed the disk upgrade *after* V2.5.5 was installed, as all the relevant streams are contained in the first 30 or 40GB in that case.

Rgds,

R.

[Adlopa]

Just to herd this monster thread back on topic, I have a 1.2.6 crash to report...

bash-2.02# /var/hack/endpad.tcl 2 5
A stale PID file was found and has been deleted.
This means that this script terminated unexpectedly last time. Loading now.
The errors logged (if any) before the last termination were:
no such object: {CONFLICT err=errTmActiveLockConflict}
while executing
"dbobj $nstation fsid"
("uplevel" body line 8)
invoked from within
"uplevel $body"
invoked from within
"transaction {uplevel $body}"
(procedure "RetryTransaction" line 5)
invoked from within
"RetryTransaction {
set nrec [db $db openid $nextrecfsid]
set nselectiontype [dbobj $nrec get SelectionType]
set nshowing [dbobj $nrec ge..."
(file "/var/hack/endpad.tcl" line 312)
bash-2.02#

rc.sysinit.author is:

#!/bin/bash
/var/hack/tivoweb-wml-beta2/tivoweb
/var/hack/endpad.tcl 2 5 -auto >> /dev/null &

Ideas, anyone..?

[doubledrat]

Stuart:

Do you know what the significance of programme names in {} in your endpad log file? Most are bracketed, but some aren't. Just curious :)

[pahunt]

Originally posted by doubledrat
Stuart:

Do you know what the significance of programme names in {} in your endpad log file? Most are bracketed, but some aren't. Just curious :)

An educated guess :) Titles of one word appear not to be bracketed whereas multiple word titles are.

E.g.
Friends
{The Simpsons}

You get the same kind of thing in SQL Server except with [] instead

[doubledrat]

you could be right there. I was trying to find a link based on program type or wishlist or manual recording or something like that!

cheers

[sanderton]

Originally posted by Adlopa
Just to herd this monster thread back on topic, I have a 1.2.6 crash to report...

bash-2.02# /var/hack/endpad.tcl 2 5
A stale PID file was found and has been deleted.
This means that this script terminated unexpectedly last time. Loading now.
The errors logged (if any) before the last termination were:
no such object: {CONFLICT err=errTmActiveLockConflict}
while executing
"dbobj $nstation fsid"

Ideas, anyone..?

The database was busy when endpad attempted to access it and contiunued to be so until it exceeded its retry count.

Happens (rarely) with all TCL scripts. No real way around it. Just restart endpad.

[sanderton]

Originally posted by doubledrat
Stuart:

Do you know what the significance of programme names in {} in your endpad log file? Most are bracketed, but some aren't. Just curious :)

TCL uses lists, which are string arrays delimited by spaces. If a member of a list itself contains spaces you use the brackets to define them. Normally you parse them out for user consumption, but i didn't bother with the log files!

[Fatbloke]

Just a little warning to people using Endpad...

Last night, around 8.57pm, I decided to record the Horizon program on BBC2 that started at 9.00pm.
I went through the search, and asked Tivo to record it. The clash menu popped up, since it was curently recording Superstars on BBC1 and endpad had extended the run by 5 minutes as requested.

It simply asked "Get this recording (Horizon) or cancel the Horizon recording"

I chose get this recording thinking that, in the same way that you manually end a recording, you'd get the partial recording on the disk (Superstars had finished by now).
But I was wrong...:mad: Tivo stopped the superstars recording and the whole recording vanished. What makes it worse - I popped over to Live TV and the buffer showed just 1 minute of stuff, basically only the tv after I'd cancelled the recording.

So just a warning for people putting in last minute recordings... cancel any Endpad'd programs from Now Playing. This should give you your normal partial recording. Then enter your new program.

Interestingly, Tivo had automatically added my BBC3 superstars season pass into ToDo thinking that the BBC1 version has been cancelled. So I should get the program later in the week.

Stuart - do you think it's possible to make the value that Endpad wakes up before the end of a show into a variable? Or is there a reason why you've chosen 5 minutes. I was thinking of endpad s e w where w is the wake-up-before-end-of-program variable. If this is made smaller (0.5 perhaps) it could avoid most of these last minute clashes.

Just a thought :D

[ccwf]

TiVo does a lot of scheduling and allocation roughly a minute before a recording is about to start, so waiting until a half minute before won't work.

[doubledrat]

was superstars a suggestion? normally it's only suggestions that vaporise if you cancel them...

[sanderton]

You have to allow sufficient time for the TiVo to realise that you've added the padding into the db entry and act on it, and as ccwf says, TiVo starts doing lots of stuff immediately before a recording ends which can block endpad for getting accesss to teh db at all. 5 mins seemed safe, although I didn't do a lot of testing to see how close you could get. Feel free to edit the code and experiment! However even if it was 0 seconds, that wouldn't solve the problem if you tried to do what you suggest during the padded period itself.

Can you undelete Superstrs with TiVoWeb?

[ccwf]

Originally posted by Fatbloke
Just a little warning to people using Endpad... Originally posted by doubledrat
was superstars a suggestion? normally it's only suggestions that vaporise if you cancel them... No, it wasn't. Actually, none of this was specific to endpad, although it's still good to warn people about this situation since it may not be obvious that scheduling a conflicting recording during the soft padding period can delete the original recording.

Basically, if you have a recording in progress (again, even if not using endpad) and then schedule a conflicting recording, the current recording is cancelled and deleted. No partial recording is left, and an entry is left in the recording history that a conflict prevented the recording. Therefore, TiVo will try to reschedule that recording.

[Fatbloke]

Indeed, this is not an endpad problem. Although by using endpad you may come across the problem more often. Just a head's up really :)

No sign of the deleted show in tivoweb's undelete function :(

Edit endpad !!! :eek: I'm not worthy :D

[sanderton]

This is the bit that controls it:


if {[clock seconds] < [expr $cendtime - 300]} {

set nextepwake [expr $cendtime - 300]

} else {

if {$nduration < 400} {

set nextepwake [expr $nextstart + 60]

} else {

set nextepwake [expr $nextstart + $nduration - 300]
}
}

The 300 is the time (in seconds) before the end of the programme thet EndPad wakes up to set the end padding.

Just change the number!

[groovyclam]

Hi all,

I'm going to install EndPad today but I haven't got TiVoWeb so I'm going to have to pull my TiVo apart - yes, endpad is that useful!!!

I have a 120G drive in a UK TiVo - I upgraded the disk ages ago and was hoping I would never have to pull my TiVo apart again because of the trauma I went through last time ( first UK user to discover then current usage of MFSTools didn't back up UK 2.5.5 ) and because my drive has behaved beautifully for such a long time I am loathe to "fix what aint bust". Anyway...

What I am asking is I have read the thread and am going to trial alphbeta's instructions but have seen comments that some partitions may be different on an already upgraded disk.

I can check that I am in the correct 4 and 7 partitions by looking for etc/rc.d directories but my question is - will partition 9 still be the same ? What files or dirs should I check for before I know I am in the correct partiton and make /hack and install endpad in it ?

Also to alphabeta - are you sure about the syntax for the bash prompt in rc.sysinit.author:

/bin/bash < /dev/ttyS3 >& /dev/ttyS3 &

where will stderr go to ?

[sanderton]

I think /var is always on partion 9, whichever OS partition is active.

IIRC, some of the boot disks have joe on them so you can edit rc.sysinit.author that way.

[doubledrat]

groovy: endpad IS worth pulling apart your beloved tivo for :)

as it's an upgraded one, you'll probably only have 4 OR 7 not both. So if the mount of 4 fails, just mount 7. Mine only had 7. 9 I believe as Stuart says is the same no matter what.

as you have the machine in pieces, I would recommend you also install the tivo binaries in /var/hack/bin while you're at it. it will allow you to easily further change things via the serial connection later

[groovyclam]

I'm going to put joe and the other useful linux binaries into var/hack at the same time but since I don't have TiVoWeb and want to use the bash via serial for any future communication I need that bash prompt syntax in rc.sysinit.author to be right first time.

I don't want to have to pull apart the TiVo again to get the correct bash syntax.

Can anyone confirm:

/bin/bash < /dev/ttyS3 >& /dev/ttyS3 &

is the right syntax ?

[doubledrat]

groovyclam: I can't remember specifically, but it looks about right. I used the syntax from the black widow guide? but can't remember where that guide is now!

don't forget to chmod 755 it though (I did - doh!)

[pahunt]

Here it is : Black Widow Guide (http://black-widow000.150m.com/TiVo-PPP/)

[alphabeta]

I have to admit that I don't fully understand the line you quoted groovy. I just copied it from Black Widow or one of the other referenced quides in my instructions.

I still haven't tested the BASH prompt so no idea if it works. However there was no obvious errors when the Tivo booted and Endpad works a charm so I must have done something right!

Iain.

[pahunt]

Originally posted by alphabeta
I have to admit that I don't fully understand the line you quoted groovy. I just copied it from Black Widow or one of the other referenced quides in my instructions.

I still haven't tested the BASH prompt so no idea if it works. However there was no obvious errors when the Tivo booted and Endpad works a charm so I must have done something right!

Iain.

As I understand that line tells Tivo to run the bash program but to send it to ttyS3 (which is the device name of the serial port) and to expect the responses back from the same place.

[alphabeta]

BTW a word on the handling of partition 9: though it becomes the /var directory if you mount it directly as shown in my guide you won't find the /var part (if that makes any sense)

If you follow my guide then the contents of /mnt/9 is the same as the contents of what will be /var when you put the disk back in the Tivo (but there is no /var to be seen!

[sanderton]

I've seen other giudies mount it on the PC as "/tivovar" rather than just as partition 9, to try to make that clearer.

[groovyclam]

OK I'm into the process and currently backing up my TiVo 120G drive.

BUT....

In the boot process the Kazymr CD reported the following partition names for my hdb TiVo drive:

hdb1 - Bootstrap1
hdb2 - Kernel1
hdb3 - Root1
hdb4 - Bootstrap2
hdb5 - Kernel2
hdb6 - Root2
hdb7 - Linux swap
hdb8 - /var
hdb9 - MFS application a10
hdb10 - MFS media a11
hdb11 - MFS application region2
hdb12 - MFS media region2
hdb13 - Hack

So which of the above will have the two /etc/rc.d in them ?

I guess hdb8 is my /var BUT can someone just answer the original question:

Please will someone name a few files in the defualt /var directory so that when I mount it and see them, I know I have mounted the correct partition as /var!!!

[doubledrat]

groovyclam: ignore what it tells you at boot. it's bollox ;)

/var is partition 9 even though it says 8

you'll see things like tmp and logs there

[groovyclam]

thanks doubledrat

[groovyclam]

OK - finished but with some weirdness.

My hdb4 and hdb7 were both /etc/ and my hdb9 was /var

I followed alphabeta's instructions and they work fine ( I even get a bash via serial now! )

I tested it with the TiVo cover off with a little manual 5 minute recording and it definitely added the 2 mins start and 5 mins end padding.

Put the cover back, on and rebooted and now it is not doing softpadding !?!?

I have rebooted again and still it is not working.

Any ideas what I should be checking ? Remember I only have bash via serial.

I am going to try another few reboots to see if it will work like when I had the cover off.

Help!

Why should it be working and then stop working after a reboot ?

[pahunt]

Have you put the endpad command in rc.sysinit.author and set the permissions by running chmod 755?

[pahunt]

And I have may have spotted the problem in alphabeta's instruction. It tells you to set the permissions on rc.sysinit.author in partition 7 but then it only gets copied to partition 4 and I don't think the permissions will be transferred as well. Therefore if 4 is your active partition it may not work.

Disclaimer: I haven't actually tested this so I may be talking rubbish :D

[alphabeta]

Ah! Could be. I thought the "cp" copied the permissions, but my Unix command line skills are pretty crap. Can someone confirm if pahunt is right please?

[ccwf]

Originally posted by alphabeta
I thought the "cp" copied the permissions, but my Unix command line skills are pretty crap. To copy permissions: cp -p

[ccwf]

Originally posted by groovyclam
Can anyone confirm:

/bin/bash < /dev/ttyS3 >& /dev/ttyS3 &

is the right syntax ? To be pedantic, ">&&#xA0;filename" is accepted for csh compatibility but discouraged to prevent confusion with the file descriptor duplication syntax. The traditional sh-style ">filename&#xA0;2>&1" or the bash-extension &>filename are preferred.

So, a minimally better variation of alphabeta's rc.sysinit.author creation recipe would be cat <<EOF >rc.sysinit.author
#! /bin/bash -
/bin/bash </dev/ttyS3 &>/dev/ttyS3 &
/var/hack/endpad.tcl 2 5 -auto >/dev/null &
EOF There's no significant difference for normal TiVo purposes, of course.

[alphabeta]

OK - extra chmod put in to fix permissions problem.

Iain

[groovyclam]

Can I fix this permission problem via the serial bash ?

Please tell me I don't have to pull the disk out again !!!

[pahunt]

Just type the following commands at bash

cd /etc/rc.d
chmod 755 rc.sysinit.author

That should sort it.

[sanderton]

Not quite. You'll need to set the partition to be writable:

cd /etc/rc.d
mount -o remount,rw /
chmod 755 rc.sysinit,author
mount -o remount,ro /
sync

[sanderton]

Originally posted by groovyclam
Can I fix this permission problem via the serial bash ?

Please tell me I don't have to pull the disk out again !!!

Now you can telnet in to a bash prompt, you can do anything which you could do with the HD attached to your PC. The only time you might need to pull the disk is if you break the bash access. Wilch I may have done occasionally. :)

[groovyclam]

OK, totally confused now.

Went in via serial bash and found my rc.sysinit.author was fine BUT...

My /var no longer contained /hack and hence the endpad.tcl ( nor the joe and tivo binaries I had put in a /var/hack/bin/ directory!!!

Where had they gone ?!?

I remade a /var/hack and ZModem'ed endpad.tcl across and all was well after a reboot.

WHAT THE HECK IS HAPPENING ?!?

How could endpad have worked once after the disk swapping and then failed after a reboot, by apparently being wiped from /var completely ?!?

[burriko]

Originally posted by groovyclam
My /var no longer contained /hack and hence the endpad.tcl ( nor the joe and tivo binaries I had put in a /var/hack/bin/ directory!!!

Where had they gone ?!?

tivo can wipe /var at any time, i think it's when it's running low on disk space. it's never happened to me, but it can happen.

[groovyclam]

Just want to say a big thank you to sanderton for developing this utility - I have been running it for a couple of days and it does exactly what it says on the tin so marvellously and seamlessly.

[TriscuiT]

In the first post, Sanderton states:

The current version, 1.2.6 appears stable (famous last words). It will work on all TiVos on both sides of the pond, but will not be fully optimal on DirecTivos as it does not attempt to use the second tuner for extending shows.

Then, many posts later, Srs5694 states:

I'm running it on a Sony SAT-T60 DirecTiVo running 2.5.2 software in the US, and it works, but not optimally -- the script doesn't know about the dual tuners, and it determines whether or not to pad something based on a search for a potentially-conflicting upcoming show (I've not yet checked the logic for the start padding, but I assume it's similar). The bottom line is that it won't pad some shows that could be padded because the script doesn't realize there's an unused tuner. None of these issues would affect SA TiVos in the US.

FWIW, I hope to look over the code and modify it to work with both single-tuner and dual-tuner TiVos, but I'm busy with other matters right now. With any luck I'll have the free time in a week or so.

Has there been any improvements made to allow for dual tuner use on the DirecTivo(DTivo)?

[modaco]

Awesome!

Nice work, I think this will make my TiVo perfect :D

P

[Edwards_sj]

Has anyone else noticed an increase in the number of missed channel changes since installing endpad?

It's gone up from about 2 a month to about 3 a week...

Probably nothing to do with endpad, I thought I'd just check ;)

I'm looking at replacing the ir wand with one of the RF units...

Cheers

Steve

[pahunt]

Originally posted by Edwards_sj
Has anyone else noticed an increase in the number of missed channel changes since installing endpad?

It's gone up from about 2 a month to about 3 a week...

Probably nothing to do with endpad, I thought I'd just check ;)

I'm looking at replacing the ir wand with one of the RF units...

Cheers

Steve

This hasn't been a problem for me. I haven't had a missed channel change since I repositioned by IR wand a few of weeks ago and I've had endpad running all that time.

[doubledrat]

nope.

maybe you didn't put the ir wand back where you had it before?

[tivo_boj]

no problem at all here on channel changes, and i have been using it from the very begining

[Edwards_sj]

Originally posted by tivo_boj
no problem at all here on channel changes, and i have been using it from the very begining

OK, seems like it's just me then :)

I didn't think it was anything to do with endpad really, it's just it started happening about the same time as I installed it...

I'll have a go moving the wand...

Cheers

Steve

[pahunt]

It's also worth making sure that Tivo isn't picking up some stray IR from some other piece of equipment as that can cause missed channel changes as well.

[Ashley]

I don't know if this is a coincidence or not but since installing SoftPad my Tivo has started recording in Basic quality.:confused:

The SPs and default recording quality still say Best quality.

If I go to ToDo in TiVoWeb and click on an episode I get the following:
Cancel date Wed 19th Nov 19:09
Cancel reason ExplicitlyDeletedFromToDo
Error string Cancelled by user

Anybody got any ideas?

[sanderton]

Do you mean SoftPad or EndPad? There were some bugs in an early version of SoftPad (the old PC app, no longer supported) that could do that. EndPad (the "new" on-TiVo app) does not edit any part of a recording apart from its paddings ettings.

[maubp]

Wow - now I really must buy a new 120GB hard disk and finally open my Tivo...

Originally posted by sanderton
Can I gauge how much interest there is in three possible additional features, so I can decide whether it's worth adding them:

1) A TiVoWeb control panel to turn padding off and on and set the amounts.
2) A TiVoWeb control panel to allow padding settings to be varied either a) per channel or b) per SP/WL
3) Forced end padding, with a following show starting to record a couple of minutes late if need be

Please post your thoughts. Ta.

(1) - Sounds nice, but if you could get this into the Tivo UI even better
(2) - Per channel settings would let me deal with BBC2 properly. Per SP settings would be even better, but wouldn't this be much more complicated to code and manage?
(3) - Again sounds nice but very complicated.

So, I would vote for 1 and 2(a) because on the face of it 2(b) and 3 are asking for trouble.

[pahunt]

Originally posted by maubp
but if you could get this into the Tivo UI even better


Not going to happen unfortunately as the Tivo UI is effectively "closed" and cannot be modified by mere mortals ;)

[Adder]

Hmm, Endpad 1.2.6 stopped on my Tivo sometime after 6am yesterday morning when it was heading into 13 hours of continuous recording (Breakfast + Dr Who Day).

The error returned was:
A stale PID file was found and has been deleted.
This means that this script terminated unexpectedly last time. Loading now.
The errors logged (if any) before the last termination were:
no such object: {CONFLICT err=errTmActiveLockConflict}
while executing
"dbobj $cstation fsid"
("uplevel" body line 7)
invoked from within
"uplevel $body"
invoked from within
"transaction {uplevel $body}"
(procedure "RetryTransaction" line 5)
invoked from within
"RetryTransaction {
set crec [db $db openid $recfsid]
set cselectiontype [dbobj $crec get Sele
ctionType]
set cshowing [dbobj $crec get ..."
(file "/var/hack/endpad.tcl" line 273)


A database lock or something else?

Adam

[sanderton]

A database lock which timed out retrying. This will happen occasionally to any database-accessing TCL programme. The retry settings are those used by all TCL programmes.

[bobnick]

ooh, a new picture! I get the crash fairly regularly - it's a right pain. Think I might have to set up a cron job to start endpad.

[sanderton]

Yes, a cron job to run endpad without the auto swich should do it - it will just return "EndPad is already running" if it is.

[sanderton]

I've added the suggestion to the first post that if your find Endpad useful, you might consider making a small donation to charity.

[occitan]

Thanks to a number of posts dotted around the TiVo Community, I was able to add endpad to two non-upgraded TiVo's, without opening the box. All you need is a serial cable, a computer and about half an hour.

The instructions are attached below this message in two parts (due to Forum attachment size restrictions).

You'll need to download Stuarts endpad from the first post in this thread, and you will also need the rc.sysinit.author file, which is also posted below.

Send me a PM if you'd like to suggest any changes to the instructions.

Usual disclaimers apply. This worked for me, but if you mess up your TiVo while following these instructions, best I can offer is a little help via these forums.

[occitan]

Unzip this file, and make sure you don't turning it into a Windows or MacOS text file when unpacking (check the options in your unzip program, and disable any line ending conversion). It has to keep the original unix line endings.

[occitan]

The Forum limits have meant I've had to split the file...

Here is Page 1

(updated 8/12/03 to fix a couple of typos)

(and again 14/12/03 to add a few clarifications)

[occitan]

Here are pages 2 to 4

(updated 8/12/03 to fix a couple of typos)

(and again 14/12/03 to add a few clarifications)

[AMc]

occitan - that looks very interesting.

The rc.sysinit.author.zip is coming up blank when I open it on Winzip8 on Win2KPro. Is the archive OK?

I assume that having upgraded my drives I've zapped the old OS so I need to pull the drives and follow the more complicated instructions to get endpad and bash over serial?

Wish there were more hours in the day...

[occitan]

The download seems fine for me. If you can't download it, the contents is simply:-

#!/bin/bash
#
# /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit.author - extras to launch
#
#
# start bash on serial port
#
/bin/bash < /dev/ttyS3 >& /dev/ttyS3 &

#
# endpad - pure genius
#
/var/hack/endpad.tcl 1 2 -auto >> /dev/null &


Make sure the line endings are Unix, not Windows/DOS

As for installing on an upgraded machine, it depends how you did the upgrade. If you replaced the A drive with a new one, it is unlikely to work. I tried on my 120 GB TiVo, and I couldn't boot into the old OS. There didn't seem to be any harm done trying though, as I could still boot back onto the normal OS partition.

However it did work on a machine that just had a B drive added, as the old OS was still on the original A drive.