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Yet another Roamio reboot issue

Discussion in 'TiVo Roamio DVRs' started by ManOfSteele, Apr 14, 2014.

  1. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=517829

    http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=517733

    Looking for people who have had a case of the "random reboots", or ones that happen after a TiVo Service connection, or cases that make you think your power supply, hard drive, or TiVo, has gone bad.

    It might not be anything hardware related, if it's what's described in the threads above.
     
  2. NYC9185

    NYC9185 New Member

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    Mar 11, 2014
    God damn my plus which is hooked up to my Samsung smart TV is rebooting constantly since Thursday night 1130pm. Never had this problem since I got my Tivo in sept. Tivo and TV are hdmi connected


    The plus is wired to Internet directly when I go to connecting to get on Tivo servers it doesnt then either reboots or 126 error message.

    Now i have a roamio basic( living room) hooked up to my sharp smart TV hdmi connected but on wifi connection to internet no problems

    Should I just put component wires on my plus/Samsung or should I put plus on wifi connection?
    This is so frustrating
     
  3. ManOfSteele

    ManOfSteele New Member

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    Jul 23, 2003
    San Jose, CA
    I switched to component video and it made a huge difference. I'd like to say it solved the problem 100% but I have had a few reboots since switching. Not many, not compared to the daily reboots when I had HDMI between the TiVo and the Samsung TV, but there have been a few. I assume it is a different issue since component and HDMI are as different as they come. I've also had one of my Minis reboot, but I assume that's a different issue as well, and it only happened once, at least while I was watching.

    I checked last night and I have not had a reboot on my Roamio in 8 days. I intend to monitor this closely.

    Note: I've disabled pretty much all of the "smart" functions on the Samsung, although it is still hooked to the internet via a hardwire.
     
  4. moonscape

    moonscape Member

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    Jul 3, 2004
    SF Bay Area
    I just had a reboot, had one each 2 days prior, before that it had been a week or so. Although I know when there was a reboot because of having to SPSPS for progress bar, and interrupted recordings of course, but where/how can I otherwise monitor?

    Note: Just checked Sys Info which said last connect was today May 28 at 11:39 AM (succeeded) and Next Scheduled May 28 at 1:44 PM. That's odd. The reboot was at 1:15 PM ...
     
  5. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    I can speak from experience, that my Roamios (and other TiVos before them), reboot far more often than I notice (since I'm not always there, and/or paying attention, when it happens). If one reboots and nothing is recording, and/or I'm not actively watching it, I have to check for uptime, or I'd miss it even happened.

    What's odd, with the Roamios, is that whatever is going on with one (probable database corruption), causes a plethora of issues I thought were HDMI-related, or something else, entirely, with the other two.

    If I take and isolate the corrupted one, the other two start acting normally...

    I'll be back with more details, after I observe with due-diligence. I think the network dependant nature may be key to one making the other two misbehave.
     
  6. jwbelcher

    jwbelcher New Member

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    Nov 13, 2007
    Orlando, FL
    You maybe on to something. Your reboots from the bad TiVo could be causing the others to reboot. I've had cases when disconnecting my MoCA based Minis at splitter has caused my Host DVR to reboot a few seconds later. I've also experienced having 8 minis with the same host DVR starts having communication errors (request timeouts / C501) that seem to trigger reboots. I've only gotten 7 minis to operate cleanly. But all this makes me think a TiVo could reboot if communications between TiVo A and TiVo B are unexpectedly severed at the wrong time (which might happen with a random reboot). I just don't know how chatty DVRs are with each other (as compared to the very chatty minis) to cause this same scenario.
     
  7. BruceShultes

    BruceShultes New Member

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    Oct 2, 2006
    Albany, NY
    I live in area where the power wires on the poles from my electricity company are old enough that almost every time there is a thunderstorm, my lights at least flicker and occasionally go out completely.

    I have a separate UPS for each of my Tivo's and TV's. In spite of this, I still get an occasional TiVo boot during or shortly a thunderstorm.
     
  8. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    Yeah, mine are all on UPS backup, along with everything from the cable modem, all the way to the TiVo. The only thing not on UPS are the TVs.

    I've checked my UPS batteries. They are at 100% capacity, and have 30 minutes minimum runtime (I verified). We have VERY good power here. It's usually ~125V, without fluctuating at all, most of the time. We only get outages when a drunk driver hits a pole, or a transformer blows (rare).

    I'm still doing my due-dilligence, before I start posting details, and my diagnosis/best-guesses.

    The Roamios are VERY chatty with each other, and with the real-time TiVo Service, even when just sitting in standby, and not recording. I can't even replicate the activity level, manually. Closest I could come was during some intensive KMTTG functions.

    Something that I recently discovered that may help with database issues, aside from what I've been posting, is to clear the recently deleted folder, then use KMTTG to bulk delete EVERYTHING in My Shows, then use KMTTG to restore it all back.

    lpwcomp gets the credit for reminding me of this:

     
  9. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

    19,189
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    Jan 31, 2002
    Northern...
    That should not happen. The only time I've run into this with a device, during the last twenty years of using UPSs, is when the UPS was bad. Once it was replaced, then it did not happen.

    I've had the power go off and on a dozen times in half a minute and it will not affect any TiVos or other devices connected to a UPS. As long as the UPS is working properly. At least that has been the case with the APC and couple of other brand UPSs I have always used. I suppose if the UPS is not fast enough to switch to battery then there could be an issue, but then that would not be a UPS one would want to use for anything.
     
  10. lessd

    lessd Active Member

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    Jan 23, 2005
    CT
    How low an input AC voltage is needed to turn on your (or any ) UPS to battery operation?? (I know 0 volts works). I never tested for this.
     
  11. telemark

    telemark New Member

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    Nov 12, 2013
    If you see a "Sensitivity" setting, it changes the trigger voltages.

    Here's the spec of an APC Back-UPS 750:
    Input voltage range for main operations 88V - 139V
     
  12. lessd

    lessd Active Member

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    Jan 23, 2005
    CT
    What does 88VAC do to a TiVo ?? If I have time I will test this out as I have a big industrial AC voltage control somewhere in my cellar.
     
  13. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    Jan 31, 2002
    Northern...
    I have my UPS set for the highest low voltage intervention and the lowest over voltage. Not sure what those settings are though. I did have a brown out once where the voltage dropped to around 80 volts. It lastest for at least ten minutes. The lights dimmed and anything with a fan, not on a ups ran super slow. I was so glad I had all my electronics on a ups.
     
  14. BP-isMe

    BP-isMe New Member

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    Dec 16, 2003
    Boston
    Not sure how many this applies to. You may or may not be aware that putting a surge protector after a UPS can cause problems. It's almost always written in the UPS manual. The surge protector clamps the voltage when it sees a spike. The switch over to battery power often causes the surge protector to clamp.

    Hope this helps...Brad
     
  15. telemark

    telemark New Member

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    Nov 12, 2013
    It might be sufficient to test the Power Supply (output) at different input voltages.
    (120V warning, don't touch the insides)

    Then figure out what a Tivo board and a hard drive does with those voltages.

    Not completely accurate, since the voltage changes are dynamic, but it should answer some questions at least.

    UPS are very commonly used with computers and the Tivo's pretty much just like one, except for some of the cable/antenna parts.
     
  16. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    Whatever the min/max voltage range is on a switching/switch-mode power supply, it is supposed to keep the output voltages within their rated ranges (and +/- tolerances), so long as the input doesn't go below the min, or above the max.

    This wasn't possible in the days of regulated or unregulated transformer & rectifier bridge power supplies.

    I've worked in several fields where I needed to verify that a vendor's product operated both as we needed it to, and as it was rated to.

    I used a variac, and found that most switch-mode power supplies strained to operate below 90V, and would draw higher amperage, often dangerous levels. My memory on the high side of the rating is foggy, as the emphasis was on being able to be reliable at low input voltages.

    I must have completely blown up at least 100 computer power supplies, in the course of a month. All I was doing was verifying they would operate as rated. The majority failed to, especially if I created loads that ran all the outputs at their rated individual and combined "sustained" ratings. Forget the "peak" ratings. Most couldn't operate the "sustained" ratings.

    Switch-mode power supplies can actually operate with momentary complete losses of input. It's in milliseconds, but still impressive.
     
  17. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    Jan 31, 2002
    Northern...
    I use 15 to 20 surge protectors connected to my UPSs and I've yet to run into any issues.
     
  18. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    It's still not recommended, and is highly warned against, just like daisy-chaining surge protection strips is. The reason is due to the potential for a fire, caused by some sort of ping-pong effect that can happen under certain circumstances.

    You should have no problem googling up the specifics, and finding pictures of the carnage that can happen.

    Being the perfectionist that you are with so many things (especially with your networking), I'm shocked at your response.

    Essentially, you have a catastrophe waiting to happen. This is not an overstatement. Daisy-chaining surge protectors, even without a UPS involved, has been determined, without a doubt, to have been the cause of many fires. Your 15-20 surge protectors connected to UPSs w/surge protection, is not something to be proud of, just because you haven't been hit by the conditions that can turn it into a house fire.
     
  19. lessd

    lessd Active Member

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    Jan 23, 2005
    CT
    I have a total home surge protector, but most of my plug strips say they have a built in surge protector, if that was such a fire hazard I would have though I and others would have heard of this danger before. Much of my electronics is not plug into any plug strip that why I have the total home surge protector.
     
  20. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    I'm fairly certain it almost takes a lightning strike, or a transient as the result of one, for the danger I spoke of. While the odds of a direct lightning strike are one thing, the odds of getting a transient surge/spike from one in the general area are another.

    Essentially, if the surge gets between two protection devices, the clamping can trap the energy (joules) between the two, and can result in a fire (all that energy has to dissipate somehow, usually in the form of heat).

    Since UPSs have surge protection, they apply as well, and there's an additional risk of damaging the UPS if surge strips are on the outlets (for the same reasons, plus factors introduced by UPS generated output). Check the website of the company that makes your UPS, and I'm sure you'll find the warnings there, or in any modern manual for one (which nobody reads).

    I use a whole home protector at the main panel, and make sure any strips connected to my UPSs don't have protection. The whole home protector is a first line of defense, and clearly states to use surge protectors on devices that should be fully protected.

    The whole home devices are designed to avoid the trapping and ping-pong effect, with downstream protectors (as long as the downstream strips aren't daisy-chained). Some of it is just due to the higher clamping voltage of the whole home device. That provides a "way out" for reflected-back energy.

    I was completely in the dark about all of this, until it came up in another thread, years ago, and I was skeptical about it. It didn't take long for me to go from skeptical to fully convinced.

    If anybody can find a legitimate link to something that "debunks" what I am sharing, in good faith, I invite posting it.

    There are a great many precautions with home wiring and appliances/devices that people don't take, or circumvent. Some will never have the misfortunes that they leave themselves open to, while others who thought they were being vigilant by only using surge protection strips, have lost everything in a fire, with the daisy-chained suppressors being determined to be the point-of-origin. But, hey, at least the surge didn't make it to the computer (or TiVo). It's now a charred lump, but due to a fire.

    I'm sure that some surge strips are so poorly-rated (in joules & clamping voltage), that not only will they not protect anything, but also likely wouldn't cause the scenario I speak of. I'm fairly sure that it's actually the better-rated (in joules, & clamping voltage) surge strips that run the highest fire risk, if daisy-chained. Not all are created equal, nor do they all use the same methods to provide protection.

    This has taken the thread far from the subject of "Yet another Roamio reboot issue". The only relevant part of this discussion would be that sometimes surge strips can drop the line voltage down, and cause a TiVo with a borderline power supply to reboot. So, I'd much rather leave it up to those who are unaware of the potential risks of suppressor/protector daisy-chaining (including to UPS outputs), to do a little research, and decide for themselves if they might want to rethink their strategies with surge strips.
     

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