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Where is Stream for Android???

Discussion in 'TiVo Stream' started by dave060863, Feb 24, 2013.

  1. Mar 3, 2013 #21 of 288
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    I've done work for TiVo in the past. Granted it was like 7 years ago, but at the time they had a very limited budget for secondary projects like this. If that's still the case then it may be that they only had the budget to develop for one platform for launch so they chose the more popular one. It may seem like bad business, but TiVo is a relatively small company that still rarely turns a profit. If they didn't have budgets they'd likely go out of business completely.
     
  2. Mar 3, 2013 #22 of 288
    magnus

    magnus Tivo User

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    Yep, the Nexus 7 is non-upgrade able. No big deal, just buy the max size if you want it.
     
  3. Mar 3, 2013 #23 of 288
    button1066

    button1066 New Member

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    So sorry you can't afford nice things but crying about it makes you look ridiculous. How anyone can be so bitter over consumer products is laughable.
     
  4. Mar 3, 2013 #24 of 288
    magnus

    magnus Tivo User

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    Yep their quote shows just how little the know about Apple products today. I have and Android and have iOS products. So, I can truly make the comparisons for myself. I like them both for different reasons.
     
  5. Mar 3, 2013 #25 of 288
    Austin Bike

    Austin Bike Member

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    But the point is that if the are satisfying the bulk of the market and pissing off a minority, then it was a good business decision. In my house there are 3 iPads and one android. That reflect the general market for the most part. They are servicing the largest part of the market which is what they are supposed to do.
     
  6. Mar 3, 2013 #26 of 288
    atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    What TiVo is supposed to do is make money for their share holders and pissing off customers doesn't do that.

    But I think people are still living in 2011 as of 9/2012 Android was estimated to have 48% of the installed tablet base in the US. Many of those Android tablets were not running android 4.0 or higher needed for the stream but the hand writing was clear that Android tablets where not some niche player.

    If they never decided to develop for Android fine hopefully they would have done the math correctly and decided it would not be profitable.

    However in this case they are now going to develop for Android so they will be spending the same or more money as if they had made that decision 3 or even 6 months earlier. There maybe some minor benefit to the last quarterly report by having the development costs moved into the future but TiVo has plenty of cash and will be ending up having expenditures be in the same place within 1 quarter. So the only question becomes what is the impact of the delay on sales. Maybe nothing or maybe something, no way to know. But likely some people will be put off by the delay and never buy and other people like me will just decide to wait and see what the next DVR brings to the table.
     
  7. Mar 4, 2013 #27 of 288
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    Yes, at this point I might as well wait for a Series 5 and see if the stream capabilities are built in. Maybe, maybe not. Assuming Android support comes before the next NFL season starts, I'll make a decision then. Hopefully by then we will know if/when a Series 5 will be released.
     
  8. Mar 4, 2013 #28 of 288
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    Someone posted in another thread that TiVo engineering responded to a tweet and said an Android update will be coming in a couple of weeks. No specific mention of whether or not it'll support the Stream but since they have the Android team working on something it's possible.
     
  9. Mar 4, 2013 #29 of 288
    jrtroo

    jrtroo User

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    I believe we were told in the fall that an android app for Stream was a future product. So, that decision was made, costs are being incurred, and we are just waiting on the result.
     
  10. Mar 5, 2013 #30 of 288
    Austin Bike

    Austin Bike Member

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    For those asking why Apple support was so easy and android support is more difficult:

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57...rs-challenged-by-number-of-different-devices/

    In order to support 90% of the android market they would need to support 331 devices.

    Now, on the apple side, its 3-4 ipads and 2-3 phones.

    Huge difference from a coding and support standpoint.

    Even if android is a bigger addressable market, the cost to go after it is significantly higher because of the fractured nature of the android market.

    In addition to those 331 devices, thing about how many versions of the OS that you need to support.

    And, in the "pissing off customers" category, doing apple products is a much easier proposition because apple does a better job of "self selecting" the OS and device. They stop support for the older devices on the new OS (just ask any ipad 1 user or an iphone 3 user). But in the android world there is more backwards porting which makes the test matrix huge. (Hell, I am running android jellybean on a kindle fire....)

    Now, the market for android is so fractured that offering android support for some models and some versions of the OS would create more angry customers and more pressure on them ("you already have support for it on xyz running 123, why can't I get it on abc running 456...?)

    I'm sure they will eventually get there and I will be happy when they do, but assuming that because android is large market it is smartest to start there is a fallacy. It's all about the usage and ease of bringing the product to market. And regardless of the market sizes, there is a better ROI on the apple products.
     
  11. Mar 5, 2013 #31 of 288
    ort

    ort Member

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    It's crazy just how bitter and angry many android fans are.

    It's just weird.
     
  12. Mar 5, 2013 #32 of 288
    crxssi

    crxssi Veteran TiVo User

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    This is not actually correct. That is like saying to write a program that works on MS-Windows, you have to support 12,000 different computer models. Nonsense. When one writes using the Android development system, one produces a program that will run on most any targeted Android device.

    It is up to the developer, which resolutions and features he wants to support. If one simply MUST use the newest of the new features, then one will limit the code to a lower number of devices- those that are running newer versions of the OS and/or better/more capable hardware. This doesn't necessarily make writing the application more difficult.

    When writing an Android application, one has to consider different CPU powers, resolutions, features, just like one does when writing an iOS application. There is considerably more hardware and OS variation in the Android space and that does make it more of a challenge. But it doesn't mean having to adapt a program to "331 devices".
     
  13. Mar 5, 2013 #33 of 288
    innocentfreak

    innocentfreak Active Member

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  14. Mar 5, 2013 #34 of 288
    Austin Bike

    Austin Bike Member

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    I can understand the frustration. but everyone neexs to understand the realities of business.

    Iamwriting this on anandroid tablet. But i still find apple products to beeasier to use.
     
  15. Mar 5, 2013 #35 of 288
    Austin Bike

    Austin Bike Member

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    I am going to disagree. I have been in product development for 20+ years. high tech. Platform enablement. Software development. Android is hardly write once run everywhere.
     
  16. Mar 5, 2013 #36 of 288
    Arcady

    Arcady Stargate Fan

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    I don't see how the Apple keyboard could be any worse than the one you typed that message on... ;)
     
  17. Mar 5, 2013 #37 of 288
    crxssi

    crxssi Veteran TiVo User

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    I think you skipped what I was trying to say...

    I never claimed it would be a "write once run everywhere." It most certainly can be if you want it to be something simple. If you are going to tackle something more complex (which is more typical) it is going to require more work, but not 331 ports or "supporting" or "adapting" to "331 different devices"... an exaggeration/generalization I was trying to correct.

    The biggest problem with Android are the devices which are stuck on older versions of the OS. THAT will set most of the limitations, depending on how wide a net you want to throw. Even so, last year, Android represents 70% of the smart phone sales (compared to some 19% on iOS) and 50% of the tablet sales. Just targeting Android 4.X is covering 44% of the huge Android market.

    Development and testing will never be as easy in Android as it is for iOS, since one of the things that Android does so well- consumer and manufacture choice and variety, also makes development and testing more challenging.
     
  18. Mar 6, 2013 #38 of 288
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    I agree that the OS requirement is the biggest hurdle. And as I mentioned earlier the main feature required for Stream functionality is encrypted HLS, and that was not added to Android until v4. So once they do finally get this app done the number of devices it will actually run on is going to be limited those released in the last 8-10 months. That leaves a huge chunk of Android users out in the cold. Then they have to figure out how to market it properly so as not to anger customers with older versions of Android. Most people don't even know which version of Android their devices use, so how is TiVo going to insure only users with the proper devices buy the Stream?

    iOS by contrast supports encrypted HLS on all devices. So it was much easier for them to develop and market the Stream for iOS.
     
  19. Mar 6, 2013 #39 of 288
    Austin Bike

    Austin Bike Member

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    Dan, I don't know the ins and outs of HLS, but you make an excellent point. Everyone keeps tossing around the market share numbers but in doing so, they are neglecting that a.) smartphones are not the primary market, tablets are and b.) there are OS limitations that will keep the app from running on all android tablets.

    An additional factor that is difficult to weigh is that apple once had ~80%+ of the tablet market, so the install base is a huge factor (I have no data on that). Now, to be fair, the market of older android tablets may/may not be that large, I just don't know. However, saying that they have ~50% of the tablet market may be "factually" true for this most recent quarters' data, but that does not represent the real business opportunity.

    Here is the real comparison, but none of us has the number:

    Total addressable install base of compatible apple units:
    All ipads sold after March 7, 2012
    Some percentage of previously sold ipads that were upgraded to IOS 5.1 or higher
    All iphone 4s and 5 models
    Some percentage of previously sold iphones (3GS, and 4) that were upgraded to IOS 5.1 or higher


    Total install base for android:
    All Ice cream sandwich and jelly bean units.
    Here is some data that shows OS distribution:
    http://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html

    So, even if Android was 50% of the tablet market, less than half of the android devices are running the v4 or above. Let's say that the tablets skew heavily and that actually 75% are capable of running the OS. That would give you ~37.5% of the market to android capable, ~12.5% non-capable vs. the 50% of all apple. So, ultimately, even in a skewed market (and nobody has the data on that), there is still a considerable lead on the apple products.

    Again, nobody here has the actual data so unless someone can bring that in, it is not worth arguing this point. I only bring two ideas forward:

    1. Claiming the andriod market is a bigger opportunity is not clearly defined with anyone's data.
    2. Building android support is far more complex than building apple support because there are fewer device and OS variables on the apple side.

    Neither of these should be taken as a statement for or against android or apple, simply the realities of the situation. With the lack of data that we all have on market opportunity and actual development challenges, we should probably not pursure those lines of discussion because too many people (myself included) simply do not have the actual facts.
     
  20. Mar 6, 2013 #40 of 288
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    One thing we do know however is that a functional prototype of the Stream was demonstrated at the cable show last year in April. At that time they had already settled on using encrypted HLS and had pretty much got it working on iOS. However Android 4.0 had just been released and I think there was one Samsung tablet that was actually using it. So at that moment the market for the Stream on Android was pretty much non-existent.

    Between then and September Samsung's sales figures for tablets running v4.0+ were pretty good, but only something like 18% of total tablet sales. The Google Nexus had just launched and the Kindle Fire HD wasn't even out yet.

    By November sales of all 3 picked up considerably and TiVo saw the writing on the wall and added Android support to their road map. However this stuff takes time. They likely had a year, maybe more, to work on the iOS app before it was released. It's only been 4 months since they decided to add Android support.

    People have this misconception that software development is easy. I can tell you from experience it's not! Seemingly simple tasks can trip you up and eat up days or weeks of your time. And throwing a bunch of developers at the problem wouldn't really help since the product isn't big enough to effectively utilize multiple developers, and if they tried they'd likely end up stepping on each others toes.
     

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