1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

What do you guys think of starting a fund for 4TB roamio upgrade developement?

Discussion in 'TiVo Upgrade Center' started by blackjackel, Apr 8, 2014.

  1. blackjackel

    blackjackel New Member

    9
    0
    May 10, 2004
    Didnt those people rip off the proprietary work of TIVO? I contacted TIVO and they said that they have NO contract with ANY 3rd party vendors.

    This means that those vendors ripped off TIVO's proprietary work to sell it to me, right? Does this mean that they are unethical too?

    If not, then why am I the one that's being unethical if I am essentially doing the same thing that they are doing?

    I don't understand why developing an app to do the exact same thing I'm doing is ethical while what I'm doing is not. The end result is exactly the same, and the same intellectual property is being replicated.
     
  2. waynomo

    waynomo My One Time TCF Club

    12,053
    36
    Nov 9, 2002
    Seven...
    Didn't you start with a drive from a third party?
     
  3. jmbach

    jmbach der Neuerer

    1,551
    9
    Jan 1, 2009
    Not sure what the 3rd party vendors have done but in any event, two wrongs don't make a right.

    What is being discussed is not what the third party has done but what you intend to do.

    It is true that you are copying some ones work and selling it. If you asked the 3rd party you bought the drive from if you can do this and they gave you permission then there is no problem.

    The idea of a program that will copy and expand or back up a TiVo drive is similar to programs that do the same for computer drives. It is commonly accepted that as long as you taking the drive out of your computer and copy the data to a larger drive and expand it so that the OS uses the whole drive and put it back in the same computer, there is no foul. However if you take that same drive and start putting it in several machines without the OS manufacturers consent, then a foul has been committed. The 3rd party vendors may not have contracts with TiVo but they might have asked for permission for what they are doing.

    Since you brought up the ethical implications of what you propose to do, then you have doubts about it as well. Perhaps what you are looking for is some one to bless your proposed intent to make you feel better about what you are going to do. I am not sure you are going to get it here.

    And remember, you asked the question first. So don't ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer.
     
  4. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
    0
    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    I really wanted to sit on the sidelines...

    I really don't care if somebody clones a 3rd-party pre-partitioned drive, compresses it down, and shares the image.

    It is the selling of it that bothers me.

    Are you going to provide technical support and a warranty to go with the image?

    Do you really believe that only selling enough copies to pay for the product you purchased makes it any more right than selling as many as you can?

    I have a lot of thoughts on the matter, but want to keep things simple and civilized. I also don't want, or expect, answers to the questions I posed. They are questions that you need to ask, and answer, yourself.

    I'd trust anything that ggieseke comes up with, over any other source. I know he'll build it from scratch, and do it right. I'd have no problems with paying for that.

    There's "doing it", and then there's "doing it right". I don't feel that WeaKnees or DVR_DUDE do the best they can do. They make drives work, but seem to not care about an optimized and optimal structure. That can lead to shorter drive life, and operational/performance issues as the drive contents fragment.

    That's why I'm running on 3TB drives, and didn't just buy a 4TB WK drive, then clone it to two more blank 4TB drives for my other two TiVos.
     
  5. eboydog

    eboydog Just TiVo'ing.....

    904
    0
    Mar 23, 2006
    I would donate $20 to the person who knows how to format prepare a 4tb drive and releases that info, I wouldn't pay a dime to someone who is selling a sector copy of Weaknees 4tb Roamio drive kit.

    If i really thought I needed a 4tb drive I would buy Weaknees solution but paying someone to rip off Weaknees work is wrong.
     
  6. blackjackel

    blackjackel New Member

    9
    0
    May 10, 2004
    Alright, well, a bunch of people apparently think that selling a copied drive to recoup costs is morally bankrupt, while I disagree, I feel that I should respect what the community believes.

    Maybe there are people out there that agree with me that didn't post on here for the fear of being ostracized, but without any opposing support I can't go on doing something the forumgoers think is a crappy thing to do.

    Now, I could simply move the operation over to ebay, or craigslist, but I won't.

    I do have one last question, what if I used my own image to duplicate the drive for myself for other tivos in the house? Would that be morally wrong too? (I don't have any other tivos, I'm just asking to see what you guys would think)
     
  7. eboydog

    eboydog Just TiVo'ing.....

    904
    0
    Mar 23, 2006
    If I purchased the Weaknees 4tb Roamio drive solution, I would make a sector based backup for my own use so that if the drive would go bad, I would have backup solution since it's not as easy to just throw in a 4tb drive and continue on. I would keep that to myself for my own use since I paid Weaknees for that privilege.

    You are more than welcome to do as you please, If you are seeking group approval, do the hard part and figure out the process to configure a raw 4tb harddrive to be accepted by the Roamio. Taking advantage of a grey area where someone else has done the technical work and making profit off their work is simply wrong even if there isn't a legal roadblock to stop you, many of the advancements of expanding our Tivo hard drives has always been on a honor system were hardly few if any parties involved has made substantial profits on distributing information that if Tivo really wanted too could be stopped due to legal issues of copyrights, patents and such.

    I might suggest that without knowing you personally, you know deep down what you propose is wrong and you are hoping that there would be a group mob mentality that would make you feel better about it if a large number of TiVo users wanted a maximum drive expansion regardless of the morality question.

    If I had the technical knowledge of how to modify a 4tb hard drive to be accepted by the Roamio I would work on it as being disabled and retired, I have more than enough time to devote to such a project. Perhaps you could take the image you have and discover the technical modifications that allow your drive image to work, if you could demonstrate your technical prowness in such, heck I would send you $20 to encourage you to release the mod into the wild.

    Best regards!
     
  8. waynomo

    waynomo My One Time TCF Club

    12,053
    36
    Nov 9, 2002
    Seven...
    You never did answer the question of where you got a working HD from.
     
  9. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
    0
    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    I know that when I purchased some upgrade drives from a reputable online reseller, I did not agree to any terms about what I could or couldn't do with the drives, nor did a copy of any terms come with the drives.

    I'd guess that there might be a reason for that. Perhaps it has to do with the open-source software that TiVo uses, even though TiVo got away with making it proprietary (or was allowed to make it proprietary).

    "TiVoization" is a term that has its own wikipedia page.

    As somebody already said, some things are an "honor system".

    If anybody saw your proposal, and supported it, without wanting to do so publicly, they'd have sent you a PM (Private Message).

    You really need to lay off the way you are passive-aggressively looking for support, or approval. It's likely going to push people away, than bring them in.

    Clone for your own use, if you want to. Think twice before posting that you have, in public. Consider that the seller knows the serial number of the drive you bought pre-imaged, and they have a record of that much. Then, consider that the image that went to that S/N might have had a "watermark" added.

    Nobody is going to say you can't sell that original, prepared, drive to somebody else (or sell it with the TiVo it is in). Make sure to have proof you sold that drive, if you do (who you sold it to & drive S/N). The ethical thing to do next, is to eliminate any clones/images made from that drive. If ethics aren't your thing, then be careful how much you share about any hypothetical clones/images you might have retained, and what you choose to do with them.

    Where this all kind of does get gray, is if even if you buy a prepared drive, then just sell it without using/cloning/making an image, how do you know the person you sold it to isn't going to do whatever they please with it? If you sell it as part of a TiVo sale, what responsibility, if any, do you have to say they can't do whatever they please with the drive inside? See, it's not all black & white. Yet, the ethics are a big deal for some.

    I think that the bigger names in prepared drive selling likely make sure their drive images are identifiable, so they can at least track down people on e-Bay (and elsewhere) selling clones as their own work, and take legal action.

    At the same time, the inability to stop people from buying one drive, then cloning it for themselves, friends, and family, likely results in the price of each drive being higher than it would be if they could protect against that.

    This whole subject matter was discussed in the original Roamio hard drive upgrade thread. It got pretty heated. I tend to take a middle-ground on it, while some go extreme one-way, and others go the extreme other-way. If that starts happening here, I'll likely excuse myself from the discussion.
     
  10. waynomo

    waynomo My One Time TCF Club

    12,053
    36
    Nov 9, 2002
    Seven...
    You buy lots of things that don't come with printed out terms yet it is still illegal to copy them and still them.
     
  11. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
    0
    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    I never said otherwise. You just bumped things to a whole new level, by bringing legality to the discussion, as opposed to the moral/ethical discussion that was going on.

    I'm not going to engage any further (on this path). It's always the same thing once it gets this far. I've seen it far too many times before. A lot of things that nobody can prove get debated, then it degrades to accusations and name-calling. A big waste of time, based on the countless times I've seen it all before.

    About the only new thing that comes to mind is that a stock Roamio ships with a blank drive, with no partitions or software, whatsoever. Older TiVos actually shipped with a factory-prepared drive, containing partitions and software, before the Roamio.

    I'm not sure how much of anything that may, or may not, change. It's just the only new thing to bring to the otherwise "same old arguments".
     

Share This Page