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What do you guys think of starting a fund for 4TB roamio upgrade developement?

Discussion in 'TiVo Upgrade Center' started by blackjackel, Apr 8, 2014.

  1. Apr 8, 2014 #1 of 31
    blackjackel

    blackjackel New Member

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    I'm thinking that the only reason that a solution for installing 4tb drive on a roamio hasn't been released is because there is little incentive for someone to research how to do this.

    Also, it is likely that someone out there has the knowhow to be able to do this, but just dosen't have the time to do it... but if there is a monetary incentive, they might be willing to take more of their off time to do it.

    Woud you guys be up for starting a paypal donation fund?
     
  2. Apr 8, 2014 #2 of 31
    jmbach

    jmbach der Neuerer

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    That and the fact that the one person (ggieseke) whom I know has the knowledge and ability to do this has a regular job that takes up most of his time. One thing about programming, it is important for the programmer to have a roof over his computer to keep it dry, electricity to run it, and nourishment to keep his mind sharp. (and maybe a little beer to improve creativity)
     
  3. Apr 9, 2014 #3 of 31
    Cybernut

    Cybernut New Member

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    Wow!! Talk about a lurker! What I find amazing is that blackjackel has been a member of this site for 10 years and finally made his first post today. Well, that should call for at least some consideration on ggieseke's part ;-)
     
  4. Apr 9, 2014 #4 of 31
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Cox Cable...
    +Like :up:

    The OP makes it sound like they are looking to create a PayPal fund, without addressing how to make sure this "fund" goes to the deserving party or parties. Maybe there's some easy way to do that. But, I have my doubts.

    I recall a Premiere PROM project from another forum, where all kinds of expensive equipment/hardware was bought with donations, only for it to all end with it being confirmed a wash, while the person who did the work got to keep all the equipment purchased with the donations. It was hundreds of dollars (perhaps over a thousand) that it took to buy all that equipment.

    I guess trying to make any comparisons, or imply donations won't guarantee success, would be comparing apples to bowling balls...

    Since I figure ggieseke is going to be the one to write it, the most obvious way to provide incentive/funds, IMHO, would be to grab a copy of his free DVRBARS program, and click on the PayPal donate button. I'm pretty sure you can add a note to your donation, stating your interest in the 4TB+ project.

    While he knows how it is done, he has principles/values/morals, and won't release anything that he doesn't write from the ground-up. It's one thing to copy somebody else's work, and another to start from scratch.

    Dvr Backup And Restore Software for Windows (DvrBARS)
    http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=503261

    I have heard rumors the author of JMFS (Comer) is allegedly working on something:

    Premiere Drive Upgrade Instructions - with all-in-one jmfs Live CD
    http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=455968
     
  5. RusRus

    RusRus New Member

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    Maybe I'm just naive but why would someone want a 4tb HDD? Does anyone download and save so many programs or am I missing something???
     
  6. Cybernut

    Cybernut New Member

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    I don't have a Roamio but I upgraded my Premiere to a 4TB recently. Of course many people would want a 4TB, and if a 5 or 6 TB comes out soon people will want that. You can never have enough hard disk space - so that you don't have to as frequently download and archive as with say a 1 or 2 TB. And yes, I do download and save a lot of my recordings. That's what bluray discs and mammoth hard drives are for.
     
  7. ggieseke

    ggieseke Active Member

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    I'm still working on it, but my job has been crazy lately and PayPal doesn't have a "donate spare time" option.

    Until TiVo rewrites more of the code 5 or 6 TB drives won't be possible. Roamios try to use a new 64-bit partition table on drives over 3TB but the rest of the box doesn't understand it yet. The current 32-bit partition table limits you to just under 4TiB.
     
  8. L David Matheny

    L David Matheny Active Member

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    As Cybernut said, many of us might want more just because it's possible. But with so much capacity in one drive, the real question becomes: How much programming are you willing to lose in one hardware disaster, when the hard drive fails and all of your recordings go to that big bit bucket in the sky?
     
  9. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Cox Cable...
    If only one such button could exist. It might help more than the money button! :D

    While "time is money" is often true, it doesn't mean "money is time".

    I understand, and I sure hope that everybody else does. I'd rather have them be patient, than try to prod somebody to do something of questionable ethics (like copy Weaknees), or prod somebody into kludging something together, then releasing it into the wild, motivated by getting some donations out of it.

    I'd rather wait for a quality program done right, by somebody I know and trust, than worry about unforeseen issues and consequences, or something that the next TiVo software update could "disagree" with (although that's one thing that could be hard to insure against, never knowing what TiVo might do/change down the road).

    I'd hope that anybody who thinks they have figured it out, refrain from releasing it into the wild, until they have a pool of willing testers who understand the risk, and importance of proper testing. Then again, that seems to be expecting more than what we get from what TiVo sends out (sometimes). :p
     
  10. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Cox Cable...
    Also very true. I have old 7200RPM PATA drives that ran 24/7 for almost a decade, were pulled and stored for ~3 years, and still power right up, with all data intact, and pass every test I throw at them. I miss that reliability that has been sacrificed in the name of platter density (as well as lower production costs), and how you get that same higher density, even if you order a new platter drive of extremely low capacity.
     
  11. unitron

    unitron Active Member

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    What I want is "donate energy" button so I can get back some of what my niece and nephew-especially him-vampired out of me the past 2 decades.


    You already knew that, right? The reason kids have so much energy is that they drain it from all the adults around them?
     
  12. blackjackel

    blackjackel New Member

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    Haha, I never realized that I registered back in 2004, I must have been considering a TIVO back then and decided it was too expensive to bother, so I never got it...
     
  13. blackjackel

    blackjackel New Member

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    I have a solution, the ethics of which might not be 100%, but I'll let you guys decide that.

    I purchased a Preformatted 4TB Tivo drive, and I'm right now experimenting with making a RAW image format from my old drive. If it works, and I need the following for it to work:

    1- The RAW image must be re-imaged back to the original drive, and the TIVO must then recognize it, this way I can make sure the process works.

    2- The RAW image MUST be compressed, IE, if the RAW image is 4TB then this obviously can not work. The new drive is empty with no shows on it, so if it compresses, it shouldn't be larger than a few gigs.

    3- I must be able to send the RAW image file to people.

    4- The RAW image file might not work on drives that are not exactly the one I have, I bought a western digital AV 4tb drive (the ones that are optimized for 24/7 audio video play). We'll have to test that to see if it works for other manufacturers.


    Now, I paid a certain amount of money to be able to get this drive, and I'm taking the difference from the amount of money I spent on the formatted drive from one I could have just purchased unformatted on newegg or something, and that difference is $98 (rounded up).

    I'm thinking of charging like $20 bucks a person until I make the $98, then I'll release the image for free. This is where the ethics come into play. I'm not sure if this is 100% ethical, but I think people should be able to format their drives and play it on their tivos themselves if they want to.

    What do you guys think?

    edit: math error.
     
  14. unitron

    unitron Active Member

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    I do not know how those who are creating commercially available 4TB drives for TiVos are doing it, so I don't know what, if any, Intellectual Property of theirs may be involved or how, so I don't know if there are any questions of infringement of any copyright or patent of theirs in your proposed actions.

    However, I feel almost certain that the source from which you purchased this drive is one of the sponsors here at TCF, which means they help make this place available to us, and hurting their bottom line might not be in our overall best interests.

    Also, there is another consideration you seem to have overlooked.

    I don't know what kind of deal these people have worked out with TiVo to re-distribute TiVo's Intellectual Property, that's between them and TiVo, but since you don't mention having worked out anything between your lawyers and TiVo's lawyers, I'm guessing you don't have anything worked out with TiVo, and you may find yourself on the unpleasant end of one or more lawsuits.
     
  15. blackjackel

    blackjackel New Member

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    I have good news. The following steps are a sucess:

    1- It copied the drive sucessfully and I managed to re-image the same drive and run it with TIVO.

    2- I've started imaing the 4TB drive and so far at 75% of the completion the file is only around 500mb big!

    3- Since the image is so small, I could use services such as dropbox to send it to people.

    4- This is the only variable that I cannot test since I don't have a 4tb drive that is not the WD AV drive. But I think it should work fine.


    - The person (I think it is person?) who did the hard drive format has 0 claim on the content of the hard drive, there is a concrete reason that I don't want to go into.

    - I'll contact TIVO legal regarding copying of their hard drive format. There should be no actual TIVO content on the drive other than the format of the drive itself. I'll see what the legality of selling it is and if they have contracts with 3rd party tivo distributors, if they have no contract with them then it should be fine for me to move forward.

    - I don't buy the whole bottom line of the forum sponsors since developing tools to format 4TB TIVO hard drives would do the exact same thing and hurt their bottom line in exactly the same way. Should we stop trying to develope our own tools to do what they charge to do? I don't think so. I was originally going to charge 5 people $20 bucks till I release the code file for free, but I could do say 7 people, and donate the extra $40 to the forum :)
     
  16. waynomo

    waynomo My One Time TCF Club

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    Seven...
    If I understand your first post, you didn't develop a tool. You purchased a HD from somebody else and are only try to figure out a way to copy it and send it to somebody else.
     
  17. jrtroo

    jrtroo User

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    Reverse engineering something you paid for so you can sell the content they produced, even if not patented, is not ethical in my book. Seems you are already recognizing the issue there, and don't have the same personal qualms I do.

    When you say this is the exact same thing, it really is. Now, if you were developing your own tool, then have at it, go ahead and sell to cover costs or ask for general donations as Comer did with his tool.
     
  18. blackjackel

    blackjackel New Member

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    Good news everyone! The file is ready and its pretty tiny! I want to speak to TIVO prior to releasing it first, so stay tuned.

    edit: Spoke to TIVO, they have no contract with any 3rd party TIVO repair shops, meaning it's completely legal to do what I'm proposing.



    I never said I did, it was just an argument to say that developing a tool and doing this would be the exact same thing for the bottom line of the companies that support this forum.


    I'm only doing it to cover costs. I plan on releasing it for free to everyone. Matter of fact, I did hours of works to get this thing going ( 1- finding the correct software to copy drives in RAW format, 2- copying the original drive 3- Re-imaging the original drive to see if this raw-copy method works. By the way, copying the 4tb drive alone took a whole 24 hours for my computer to crunch) and I'm not charging anyone for all that extra work I did, I'm only charging for the cost of having the drive formatted the way it is.
     
  19. Cybernut

    Cybernut New Member

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    As ggieseke pointed out in the other thread and others in this thread, this action of selling it, even if ONLY to first 5 people and to recoup the costs of your work is unethical in my books too. You bought something knowing full well it was someone else's proprietary work and now you have simply devised a way to replicate that - and even if it's true that you are not trying to profit from this but simply trying to recoup the costs...that is simply an unethical action...because the time and money you've sunk into this was decided by you...you should feel happy that you've been able to devise this way and just not try to share this...and not try to recoup costs. It's like taking a book, scanning into pdf and then peddling the pdf (someone else's work) to justify the time-money costs incurred to convert to pdf. If others want the book, they can and should buy the book themselves. Anything else is trying to disseminate proprietary technology developed by someone else, that they obviously invested far more capital to develop than you did.
     
  20. ggieseke

    ggieseke Active Member

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    For what it's worth, someone bought a Premiere XL and had it shipped to me during the early development stages of DvrBARS. Thanks, Jim - THAT'S a community.

    Others have supported ethical development of 3rd-party apps, and I've spent about 2K myself in the last year.

    $100 bucks? Really?

    In case I haven't been clear I oppose theft of intelluctual property.
     

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