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Way to empty entire "Recently Deleted" folder?

Discussion in 'TiVo Help Center' started by johnk, Mar 26, 2006.

  1. omni555

    omni555 New Member

    Oct 3, 2006
    There is really no change in how recordings are stored/removed from the TiVo unit since the "addition" of the RD folder. The only change is that NOW you can "see" the deleted files and can still recover them as long as they haven't been overwritten.

    It works the same as the hard drive on a computer. When you delete a file, it is STILL there on the hard drive. ONLY the link to the file name has been removed. You can get "undelete utilities" that will display all the deleted files that haven't yet been overwritten, and you can recover them.

    The "Recycle Bin" in Windows works in a similar manner, except that you don't need special software to recover the deleted files. Let's say that you have a 100 GB hard drive that is half full. You continue adding and deleting files to your hard drive, maintaining the 50 GB of "free" space on the drive. The "deleted" files go to the recycle bin. Now, when you have added/deleted another 50 GB of files on the drive, the drive will be "full" even tho it shows that it is 50% full.

    Add ANOTHER file to this drive and it will have to "bump" a file from the recycle bin. THAT is basically what the TiVo unit does. When you have recorded a total of 80 GB (on the DT80 unit) the drive is "full". It doesn't MATTER whether you have deleted half of these recordings. BUT the "deleted" recordings have NO PROTECTION when you try to record something ELSE on the unit, and one or more of them will be "overwritten" to make room for the new recording, and will no longer be available to "recover".

    As for your specific query, unless there is something wrong with the way the software works or with the TiVo's setup, programs SHOULD be overwritten from the RD folder before those marked "until space needed" are touched. In fact, IF one of the "until space needed" programs is deleted by a new recording, it would go to the RD folder, and one of the RD folder programs would STILL need to be bumped!!!

    I guess like any "new" technology that is constantly evolving, there are going to be bugs to be worked out as they appear to customers. And the only way that the folks at TiVo can KNOW of these bugs or problems is through customers like us bringing them to their attention! :cool:
  2. omni555

    omni555 New Member

    Oct 3, 2006
    Mike, a problem is only "ridiculous" to someone who either does not know enough about the situation to understand what is being discussed or who does not care about the problem personally. If someone cares to ask a question about something they would like to understand better, then it would seem that it is a valid topic for discussion. After all, is not one of the purposes of forums like this one to ask questions and learn about things we do not completely understand?

    As I see it, if people were not concerned or interested about this situation regarding the RD folder, then the topic would die a natural death on its own. :cool:
  3. wscannell

    wscannell Member

    Dec 6, 2003
    Deleting programs will not change the amount of time it takes to copy the drive to a new drive. All the data on the disk gets copied (if you copy with the save programs option) whether or not the programs have been deleted.
  4. rlares

    rlares New Member

    Jul 10, 2007
    The reason that someone, who has a clue about computers, would want to empty the "Recently Deleted" folder is for performance.

    The fact is that as you use your TiVo, the file system get very fragmented. There are really only two ways to defragment a hard drive: 1) use a utility to defragment the hard drive and 2) delete all the files. Since TiVo does not have a defragmenter, the best you can do is delete all the recorded programs.

    "Deleting" a show only removes it from the "Now Playing" list and places it into another folder called "Recently Deleted". The file space is still occupied by the "deleted" program until you 1) delete it from the "Recently Deleted" folder or 2) the TiVo determines it needs additional space to record a program and TiVo actually deletes one of the shows in the "Recently Deleted" folder to free up space.

    It's not perfect, nor is it completely defragmented, but short of removing the TiVo hard drive and defragmenting it while connected to another computer, the best way to defrag it is to delete all the recorded programs. Not perfect, but it helps performance.

    By the way, you can take it to the extreme and use the "Clear and delete everything" option, which will essentially restore your TiVo to like new, deleting nearly all files created on the TiVo since you first put it in service. The ones that were there originally, still occupy the same space they did when your TiVo was new and so it should be essentially no more fragmented afterward, than the day it was purchased new.

    Ciao :)
  5. steve614

    steve614 what ru lookin at?

    May 1, 2006
    Dallas, TX
    The Tivo regularly indexes the HD, and IIRC from what I have read here, that is similar to defragging.

    Are you having problems with performance?

    I leave my Tivo alone and I haven't noticed any issues in this area. :confused:
  6. rlares

    rlares New Member

    Jul 10, 2007
    Indexing is like cataloging the guide so that you can quickly find movies from your favorite actor or find all animated childrens shows, etc.

    Defragging is rearranging the actual files that reside on your computer hard drive so that they are in contiguous blocks. Take your personal computer, when you store a document like resume.doc onto the hard drive, it may be stored in one continuous grouping of bits or it may be broken into two or more (maybe even hundreds) of groupings of bits. When you retrieve a fragmented file, the hard drive must find all the pieces to assemble your file, resume.doc. When retrieving an unfragmented file, the beginning of the file is located and the entire file read without much repositioning of the drive heads.

    Severely fragmented movies, might affect the playback. Severely fragmented indexes might slow your searches, etc.

    I have a TiVo series one and a TiVo series two. The series one is lightning quick while the series two performance is often less than ideal. I don't necessarily attribute this performance to fragmentation, but I do try to regularly remove deleted recordings from my TiVo.

  7. jrm01

    jrm01 New Member

    Oct 17, 2003
    How do you "remove deleted recordings. It is my understanding that removing them from the Recently Deleted folder merely removes the index entry for them. This would not allieviate any fragmentation.
  8. pdhenry

    pdhenry Now 10% off

    Feb 27, 2005
    I understand the point to be that by making the deleted movies recoverable the space isn't ever made available until a recording takes the space of one or two old shows. This might ccontribute to fragmentation since at most only two or three shows might be removed at a time rather than clearing up large blocks of programming. A fair point, perhaps.

    I thought that Linux drives were somehow not prone to fragmentation for some reason though (although I would be at a loss to define how). Am I thinking of some other OS than Unix/Linux?
  9. alansh

    alansh New Member

    Jan 3, 2003
    Phoenix, AZ
    The TiVo actually uses its own Multimedia File System (MFS), rather than one of the Windows (FAT, NTFS) or Unix based systems (ext, rfs). It's optimized for large files, and generally doesn't have a problem with fragmentation.

    Deleting recordings from the Recently Deleted folder won't help at all, as it doesn't change how the TiVo allocates the space. It just shows you programs that (a) have been deleted, and (b) haven't had any parts overwritten. Deleting a recording from RD just hides it and prevents you from restoring it. The TiVo will select the space to reuse the same whether its in Recently Deleted or not.

    The only way to defragment a TiVo partition is to back it up using MFSTools and restore it.
  10. ZikZak

    ZikZak Neurostim Addict

    Aug 12, 2002
    Arecibo, PR
    Tivo's proprietary file system manages fragmentation issues on the fly. Fragmentation is not a problem with tivo.
  11. sconi1

    sconi1 New Member

    May 30, 2007
    I tried holding the clear button on the Recently Deleted Folder but it doesn't do anything.... :(
  12. WhiskeyTango

    WhiskeyTango New Member

    Sep 20, 2006
    New Jersey
    I'm not directing this solely at you, just using your quote to make a point to everyone...

    Your right, its TV your way. Meaning you can watch what you want when you want on TV. It has nothing to do with the menu options that don't directly affect your television watching ability. By this reasoning Tivo would have to implement every suggestion that every person makes which is ridiculous and impractical. If Tivo implemented a Clear All RD option, someone would surely complain that they accidentally deleted everything when they were trying to recover a program. Since it's TV your way, is Tivo to remove the option from their box only?

    You don't HAVE to look in the RD folder, is it that there is a number greater than 0 that bothers people? There's really no reason to go into the RD folder unless you are recovering a program so just ignore it. If you want to keep it 'clean', delete the show from the RD folder after you finish watching it, it takes all of 5 extra seconds and don't let the folder get up to large numbers that make it time consuming. Please don't say that you shouldn't have to waste your precious time pressing the few extra buttons because if you have time to flop on the couch and stare at the TV for several hours, then you are not so busy that the extra few seconds is going to screw up your schedule.
  13. Soapm

    Soapm Active Member

    May 9, 2007
    So close,...
    Bingo, I have accidentally deleted movies and appreciated the second chance folder. Also, those are the first shows to be deleted when space is needed.
  14. HaloBox

    HaloBox New Member

    Oct 1, 2006
    I think I would be more comfortable with the "Recently Deleted" folder if I could readily see my available recording space number go up as I manually delete recordings.

    Can I?

    All I've discovered so far is the number of maximum recording hours, not the remaining space or recording hours.

    I'm new to the Series 3 and will happily let TiVo take over the disk management if I can peek into the underpinings and verify it's working correctly.

  15. pdhenry

    pdhenry Now 10% off

    Feb 27, 2005
    By default the only info you have regarding available space is that the number & total length of recordings in the RD folder goes up when you delete from the Now Playing list. If you don't delete from the RD folder at least you have a clue rather than no indication at all.

    It works well enough that I generally don't lose any suggestions due to space requirements.
  16. tbeckner

    tbeckner TiVo Fan

    Oct 26, 2001
    Bend, OR, USA
    A nice option would be to ALLOW a press of the CLEAR button on a FOLDER to allow removing everything in the FOLDER, of course with confirmation, which takes care of emptying the RDF.

    I recorded the whole season of a TV series on CBS, which will go nameless, and almost half way through the season this summer I decided I didn't like the series, so I had to delete each individual recording. It would have been really nice to just press CLEAR while the FOLDER was selected to delete all of the individual recordings.

    Of course a MOVE FOLDER (All Recordings in FOLDER) option would be handy for managing MRV (Multi-Room Viewing), and while I am wishing for management functionallity, how about Remote DELETE (delete a show on another TiVo) would really come in handy.

    Of course, not everyone has FIVE TiVos to use for MRV, but I do. And I believe it is GOOD for TiVo to support the power user. :rolleyes:

    BTW, I am not complaining, these are just handy suggestions.

    Of course when TiVo finally comes out with a MEDIA SERVER and remote satellite devices, we could store everything on one device and manage everything from the remote satellite devices, but that is a few years out.

    (Note: Cheap Quad Processor and High Performance Storage Controller, and in the case of DirecTV no need to encode the incoming digital feed, so maybe eight simultaneous recordings on the Media Server (with its own built-in multi-switch)?)

    I know for TiVo, they are just attempting to keep their head above water, but at the same time they should be THINKING BIG, and we hope they are, don't we? :)
  17. rlares

    rlares New Member

    Jul 10, 2007
    I would like to reflect on the reason behind the original post, a suggestion that TiVo include an option to easily clear the "Recently Deleted" folder.

    It's really quite amusing to me how the discussion developed. It was a simple observation, which obviously has merit - I wholeheartedly support it. But you would think by the naysayers posts, that somehow their lives would be turned upside down if TiVo implemented such a feature.

    I'm left wondering whether these naysayers are really TiVo developers who consider such suggestions an attack on the product they work so hard to develop (just kidding, I highly doubt it). Or maybe the naysayers find there are too many options and one more will just confuse them to the point that their eyes glaze over making it hard to even watch television. Personally, I think there are just people can't support something that they themselves didn't suggest or who will take a contrarian view, no matter what the subject, which is unfortunate.

    Remember, without suggestions, you wouldn't even have the "Recently Deleted" folder at the root of this discussion - which is apparently a big hit with everyone having a TiVo.

    Justy a thought - you naysayers know your true motivation.
  18. steve614

    steve614 what ru lookin at?

    May 1, 2006
    Dallas, TX
    As has been said before, adding this feature will do nothing but make the user THINK his HD has been "cleaned".
    Adding useless features to a hardware limited device will only slow it down even more.
  19. rlares

    rlares New Member

    Jul 10, 2007

    I guess that struck a nerve - sorry.

    It's likely just a small modification to the TiVo application software. And by the way, a TiVo is not a coffee pot, it's actually a real computer, complete with a real operating system. You could add any feature to it like upgrading to the new Quicken because there are new features. And really, most of what has been stated so far is conjecture on the part of those making the statements (including myself). I'm not sure how many people who posted are intimately familiar with the software installed on TiVo (as in employed by TiVo and actually maintaint he software). And regardless of what some "expert" has stated, if you truly remove the program, the hard drive IS cleaner. It's programs that have been moved to the "Recently Deleted" folder that are reall NOT removed, making the user THINK they were removed.

    You really sound like you have a dog in the race - like somehow you will be diminished personally if everyone doesn't agree with you. The suggestion is out there for TiVo to consider.
  20. GoHokies!

    GoHokies! O2->CO2 Converter

    Sep 21, 2005
    Good suggestions, all of them. Have you gone to the link in my sig and told Tivo about them directly?

    I've proposed something like that, and maybe if enough people actually suggest it directly to Tivo, they'd work on implementing it.

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