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Want to add a QAM channel after scan

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by Boneless, Sep 1, 2012.

  1. unitron

    unitron Active Member

    16,387
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    Apr 28, 2006
    semi-coastal NC
    I wish you two could learn how not always wind up squabbling because I learn so much from both of you.
     
  2. Boneless

    Boneless New Member

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    Dec 29, 2001
    I'm not exactly sure what you mean. I do receive a SD version of Fox, but the OTA HD is not seen by the channel scan while all the other local affiliates are seen. It mainly bugs me since I can't record HD football on that channel and only the SD version. Once the season is done, I probably won't complain about it until next year. I do what you said about guide data. Check guide data for SD channels and manually record on the HD QAM channels.
     
  3. lpwcomp

    lpwcomp Active Member

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    May 6, 2002
    John's...
    You have totally confused me. Does your cable system still have analog channels? Without a CableCARD, those are the only cable channels for which you can get guide data. My suggestion was to set up TiVo for Over-the-Air reception as well as cable. You can get guide data for those.

    If you tune to thee channel by just entering numbers, it is an analog channel.

    If you do not have any of the cable cos boxes, you should be able to get a CableCARD w/o paying any extra. Where are you, what cable co do you have, what is your official package name, and what equipment of theirs do you have?
     
  4. Boneless

    Boneless New Member

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    Dec 29, 2001
    I pay only for analog stations which I do receive correctly and do receive guide data. I did setup tivo for OTA and cable and can receive some digital channels and HD locals but those don't have guide data for the HD of course.

    Cablecards cost extra per month and since I don't subscribe to any packages, it won't work either until I pay for digital, which means quadrupling my cable bill which is useless since we only use basic tv or internet to begin with.

    I'm located in Honolulu, HI with Time Warner and only have 1 cable box attached to a series 1 tivo while my series 3 is connected as another source to my tv. Like I said before, I can scan and receive all analog and local HD and set manually recordings without guide data and no prob. But I'm missing one local HD that doesn't get picked up by the channel scan and can enter it manually when on live tv to watch it. However since it doesn't get picked up by the channel scan and end up in the channel list, I can't manually record anything on it since tivo doesn't recognize it as a legit channel.
     
  5. cannonz

    cannonz Active Member

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    Oct 22, 2011
    You are going to channel list and putting the check mark on that channel, or is it not there for you to check?
     
  6. lpwcomp

    lpwcomp Active Member

    8,075
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    May 6, 2002
    John's...
    If all the channels for which you are authorized are analog, what is the box for?

    Both scans (antenna and cable) fail to find the HD version of the Fox affiliate? The only thing it finds is the cable SD version?

    Can you give me an example of channel no. that you tune to on the S3 for which you get guide data? What numbers do you enter by hand to tune to the Fox HD channel? What does the channel list say about that channel?
     
  7. lrhorer

    lrhorer New Member

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    Aug 31, 2003
    San...
    In this case, no, any more than TiVo should be required to reproduce signals from a mechanical TV camera. It took 20 years of pulling, pushing, and fighting tooth and nail to come up with a set of standards (poor as it is) that is supposed to allow fully separable security, and CableLabs et al are still trying very hard to kill it, making the TiVo completely obsolete. Allowing people to circumvent it is a fairly bad idea for a number of reasons. A much better solution would be to require CableCards even for OTA. In fact, I wish it were the case in the first place, and that the OTA providers would be forced to rely solely on subscriptions for their revenue. I'm tired of paying for them. *THAT* is the option you and I (and everyone else) should have, and the OTA channels cost all of us one whole Hell of a lot more than a couple of CableCards.

    I can't speak to that. One may have issues with anything. OTA broadcasts have access to greater bandwidth than most CATV streams, and most people who have both have reported superior performance for OTA. There is no question your experience may have been otherwise, but it is also not the norm.

    Nonsense. Of course it does. It doesn't appear on the screen, of course, but that does not mean the data is not there. Without the CableCard providing the map, there is no way for the TiVo to match up that data with an arbitrary and unidentified stream. For a specific example, the data for KABB, the fox affiliate in San Antonio, is there. Without the channel map, however, there is no way for the TiVo to know which of the thousands of timeslots on the system is carrying KABB, and as I pointed out, the actual timeslot on the east side of town may be different than the one on the west side of town.

    Not if you have a CableCard, part of whose job is telling the TiVo which channel is assigned to which bitstream. Of course, with SDV, this information is perfectly dynamic, potentially changing from moment to moment. On a linear QAM, it is fixed by the provisioning at the headend or hubsite, but it is not necessarily the same across the entire CATV system, and can definitely be changed by the engineers at a moment's notice, with no need to notify Tribune. (In fact, they never would.)

    It's not incredible. It is simply a fact. Indeed, I believe the Moxi allowed the user to do that, and I know for a fact it can be done on a modified TiVo. I'm pretty sure HTPCs can, as well, but in every such case, it must be done manually, since there is no way for the computer to obtain the info. The TiVo can find timeslots without the aid of the CableCard. Doing so is the function of the receiver, not the CableCard. Indeed, some CATV companies send out their SDV streams - or at least some of them - in the clear. On such systems, by manually searching up and down the bitstreams, the user without a CableCard can sometimes find an SDV channel and watch it until suddenly it will disappear. The person may be able to discern fairly easily what the channel he found might be, and in the case of a linear QAM the assignment may be metastatic. The TiVo has no way at all to discern which content is being delivered on that timeslot without either a CableCard or a user to tell it. Digging into the MFS file system just a bit, one can quite easily read the channel info and assign it to an arbitrary stream, at which point the information appears in the guide display and can be used as one normally does to assign Season Passes, one time recordings, etc.

    You are certainly free to use the TiVo any way you can manage, including using it as a doorstop or frying pan. That does not make it wise for TiVo to modify their design so it makes a better doorstop or frying pan, either from an engineering perspective or a financial one. I'm the very first person in the front of the line when it comes to modifying my equipment to suit my desires and the manufacturers be damned, but I am absolutely the last to support prostituting a good engineering design to suit the tastes of users who have no idea what unintended consequences implementing their desires will have.

    Not really. What I want is a single, uniform set of standards that must be met by every single manufacturer of TV receivers and every single source of TV content, including satellite, CATV, FIOS, and yes, even OTA. Those standards should be set by an independent, unbiased standards organization, not by a consortium of CATV companies, and the designs should be based upon solid engineering principles, not upon whether the MPAA, Madison Avenue or Sony likes them. And yes, to a certain extent whether any particular group of users particularly likes the results or not.

    Do I really need to remind you how you did not want to read the metadata for a highlighted entry in KMTTG in order to provide the OAD for a series episode because it did not fit well with your and moyekj's design paradigm? I could have howled and screamed about your refusal to pursue the matter, but I did not. Choosing to circumvent the spirit and intent of CableCard specifications is far more fundamental than choosing whether to spend more time requesting and reading the metadata for specific entries in the NPL.

    "Idiotic" is an emotionally charged term, and really has no proper place in an engineering discussion. (Not that I have not been guilty of using it myself in the past.) What's a bad idea is making official allowances for people to save a few pennies by implementing bad design. That said, many CATV companies do have unacceptable fees attached to CableCards. Someone, somewhere, should enforce reasonable charges for CableCards and place a cap on how much one may be charged over time for a PCMCIA card that costs the CATV company far less than $50. I'm not sure who really has the authority to do so, however. Unlike DVRs and STBs, CATV companies have no financial reason to want people to rent CableCards. They would much rather they did not exist, so there is little incentive not to jack up their profit margins close to the 4 digit mark.
     
  8. lrhorer

    lrhorer New Member

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    Aug 31, 2003
    San...
    Oh, come now. I can't speak for lpwcomp, but I am certainly not upset or angry, and a good debate can be spirited without being acrimonious. A good disagreement between two people of good faith can not only be an excellent way for everyone involved to learn, it can be a great deal of fun. Certainly I am not offended or hurt by anything lpwcomp has said. If he were being disingenuous or deliberately obtuse, I might well be offended, but he is unquestionably not, so my respect for him remains high, the fact I disagree with much of what he is saying here totally notwithstanding.
     
  9. lrhorer

    lrhorer New Member

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    Aug 31, 2003
    San...
    You do realize that as of earlier this year, the CATV companies have been allowed by the FCC to eliminate all analog channels, and that probably sooner rather than later all those channels will be gone? Taking their place can be several hundred digital channels.

    Ooh. They have one of the worst reps in the forum. 'Sorry.
     
  10. Boneless

    Boneless New Member

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    Dec 29, 2001
    It's not there for me to check mark.



    My fox affiliate is channel 3 and can get guide data. I have to enter 46-3 to get the HD OTA fox affiliate and it doesn't show on the channel list at all. The info bar only says "cbl" and "to be announced" for guide data. But it does show the resolution at 720p so I know it's the HD OTA.


    Until that time, there are plenty of people still on analog. My parents being one of them even though they just bought a 55" HDTV. I'll play it by ear as what to do if those analogs ever get removed. Our local telephone co just started tv service this summer and they have some tempting offers.
     
  11. lpwcomp

    lpwcomp Active Member

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    May 6, 2002
    John's...
    Part of the source of the confusion is your use of the term "OTA" in conjunction with a cable channel.

    46-3 is a very odd location for a FOX affiliate. What does the guide have for 2-1? According to zap2it, that is where your local FOX affiliate is supposed to be.

    What is your zipcode?
     
  12. Boneless

    Boneless New Member

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    Dec 29, 2001
    96821, I looked at zap2it and I think the confusion is the digital and HD channels are all rebroadcast on cable channels which don't correlate to antenna and don't follow that website too.

    I'm not at home at the moment to check 2-1, but my NBC affiliate is 48-1, ABC is 48-9, CBS is 49-3, and PBS is 49-12. They used to be in the +110 range and moved a few months ago.
     
  13. lpwcomp

    lpwcomp Active Member

    8,075
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    May 6, 2002
    John's...
    But you said you set it up for Antenna also.

    When they were in the 110 range, they were probably still analog. The fact that the clear QAM digital channel numbers don't match the OTA Numbers is just...odd.

    Once again, what is your zipcode and what is the cable box for?
     
  14. cannonz

    cannonz Active Member

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    Oct 22, 2011
  15. Boneless

    Boneless New Member

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    Dec 29, 2001
    My memory is getting fuzzy about that too. I know I had to specify antenna and cable channels to get everything I have now otherwise antenna would only give 2-13 channels, while cable gives 2-122+ and up even with some that I don't receive any station on

    zip is 96821 and the cable box doesn't have anything to do with the series 3 tivo.

    This is my lineup. A straight cable connection to my Samsung tv picks up all those HD or SD, and so does the series 3 EXCEPT for 46-3 even though I can manually enter it from the remote. I can even pickup 45-xxxx but there's no channels on those so I don't know why the scan can pickup that but not 46-3 which actually has a signal.
     
  16. lpwcomp

    lpwcomp Active Member

    8,075
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    May 6, 2002
    John's...
    I know that, it is just that your Series 1 should be able to tune the analog channels w/o the box. So unless you need the box for on-demand or PPV, you could exchange the box for a CableCARD and receive a customer owned equipment credit. Except of course that TWC, as with all cable cos, seems to be playing fast and loose with the rules.
     
  17. Boneless

    Boneless New Member

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    Dec 29, 2001
    I see. That would make sense if they actually had competition here but they own about 85% of the market so I don't see that happening. I can drop by and ask though. Anyhow, it appears that there's no fix for my manually adding the 46-3 HD fox affiliate to my channel list unless tivo magically starts recognizing it in a future scan so I'll just leave it at that. SD football it is.
     
  18. cannonz

    cannonz Active Member

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    Oct 22, 2011
    While you can't set up a manual record without it being in guide, I believe you can put on the channel and press record. Record channel for an hour then rescan, maybe it will look for it after recording on it longshot but may work.
     
  19. lpwcomp

    lpwcomp Active Member

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    May 6, 2002
    John's...
    There are FCC rules in play here. Has nothing to do with competition.
     

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