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V87 error. Tivo doesn't support switches. Huh?

Discussion in 'TiVo Mini' started by bunjicat, May 21, 2014.

  1. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    You definitely got the last laugh!

    If I had overtly suggested the solution you used, I'd have been relentlessly hammered by some, as other TiVo with ethernet switch topic threads I have participated in have proven.

    You certainly ruffled some feathers, and have proven that even finding your own solution to your own problem will still be scrutinized by some, and villainized by others.

    One participant seems to have a problem free configuration for every possible TiVo scenario, but only lists one TiVo in their signature...

    Who would have ever guessed that utilizing a network management function would fix your scenario? I guess "my friend" would... :D
     
  2. Wingershute

    Wingershute New Member

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    Oct 22, 2010
    Just came across this thread. I can tell you the minis works fine with switches. I use four trend net switches and no problems except for a slight lag when channel changing or playing a video. Each mini has its own 5 port switch and my asus router connects to an eight port which then connects to the three other switches which are in separate rooms. I made my own cat 6 cables.
     
  3. lessd

    lessd Active Member

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    Jan 23, 2005
    CT
    The term will not work with a network switch is not what TiVos problem is, most systems will work using a network switch, but not all and TiVo does not want to support the few cases when using a network switch is causing the problem with your TiVo. I have a network power monitor that will not work when connected to a switch, works great when connected directly to one port of my router, don't know why and don't care why, my network printer works great connected to the same switch.
     
  4. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    My network printer didn't work if the router got rebooted, without a hard power cycle of the printer. So, I put it on a secondary switch (counting the router as the first switch). Yet, even then it still sometimes acted up. Finally just gave it a reserved IP, and it works fine either way, even though it specifically has a DHCP setting, and is the default option...

    Some have found the same with TiVos, but it seems most don't want to assign static IPs to their TiVos.

    I prefer to set the devices to DHCP, then use the router to make sure the DHCP has a "reserved" address for each device.

    I like bunjicat's last-laugh, mostly due to it being "not the usual way one uses a TiVo", but still opening up an possibility for others to try, if equipped to do so, segmenting using a VLAN, as opposed to running a dedicated physical cable, to take out a switch (or switches).

    That's also a way to fix VoIP issues, when the endpoint adapters act-up on switches beyond the router. It would have been my next step, had Priority rules not worked. At the same time, members have claimed they have other brands of VoIP units that work fine after passing through six or eight switches.

    Still not something most have the type of equipment, or expertise, required to implement, more so than my QoS/Priority suggestions. But, VLANS often come up in articles on improving QoS.

    I'm not trying to elbow you, or spark any disagreements. I'm just pointing out the YMMV factor, on so many things.
     
  5. lessd

    lessd Active Member

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    Jan 23, 2005
    CT
    I have many friends/family that have had network problems, I don't have any now using my Netgear R6300 router (for the last few years), and in desperation in trying to help some people I have made then purchase the same router I have, and their problems go away, not saying my router is the best, just that it works very reliability with the Comcast internet system in my CT home town.
    My HP printer works without any problems using DHCP, but some printers I have worked with do require a static IP to work without problems, don't know why but each network and printer are somewhat different and I am no network expert.
     
  6. moyekj

    moyekj Well-Known Member

    11,128
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    Jan 23, 2006
    Mission...
    I hadn't used MRS for a long, long time but had to recently. With Roamio Pro as host and Premiere Elite as client with a MoCA + ethernet connection between I kept getting V87 errors at least once per show, sometimes 3 or 4 times. In all cases just re-starting MRS again after the dropout worked immediately. This seems a lot worse than I can remember for V87 errors. V87 errors I used to get were when I would MRS recordings that had not yet completed. Very rarely would I get V87 error otherwise. Looks like recent TiVo code has made things much worse...
     
  7. moyekj

    moyekj Well-Known Member

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    Jan 23, 2006
    Mission...
    V87 problems abound still. I won't be needing to MRS anymore after tonight. I'd be pissed if I was still a heavy user of MRS and streaming to a series 4 unit.
     
  8. mburnno

    mburnno New Member

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    Oct 1, 2003
    I couldn't agree more with your statement you just made! I have had this conversation more than one time with Tivo and with some of the users on this forum who seem to want to back Tivo. I don't think anybody here is really asking Tivo to jump through a ring of fire but instead come to the reality of switches are more in the home environment then ever.
     
  9. lessd

    lessd Active Member

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    Jan 23, 2005
    CT
    I had some switch problems (not TiVo type as I use MoCA and a direct connection from the main Roamio to the Router) and solved them by purchasing a smart Netgear (GS108T) switch that has its own IP address into my router, and has all kinds of settings that a router may have, solved all my switch problems.
     
  10. dcline414

    dcline414 New Member

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    Apr 30, 2014
    Atlanta, GA
    We only have one Tivo, but it is a wired connection through a D-link DGS-1005G green gigabit switch. We actually have 3 of these switches on our network, all of which have bandwidth-intensive devices connected. We have never had a single error, and don't have any difficulty streaming HD video between devices.

    Tivo may not support them, but switches don't inherently cause any Tivo connectivity issues. I would try resetting the switch first, and possibly try replacing it with one from a store that takes returns (Walmart) to see if the switch is indeed causing the errors. A bad switch anywhere on the network can also cause connectivity issues elsewhere, so disconnecting other devices could help isolate the problem.

    Lastly, don't forget that the cable itself can go bad. I have spent hundreds replacing devices only to discover that all I needed was a $5 cable.
     
  11. meyerweb

    meyerweb New Member

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    Aug 8, 2004
    My issue with TiVo on this network switch issue isn't that the configuration isn't supported, it's that they don't TELL you it's not supported until you've already spent your money. There's nothing on their product pages that says a switched network config isn't supported.

    There's so much missing information on TiVo's web site it virtually amounts to false advertising.
     
  12. CrispyCritter

    CrispyCritter Purple Ribbon Wearer

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    Feb 28, 2001
    North...
    Once again, folks are not fully understanding TiVo's position. I would guess a vast majority of the folks here are running TiVos with switches. It works; TiVo expects it to work.

    But TiVo will not help you debug TiVo network problems unless you take out the switches. An unfortunate, but understandable, position. Too many folks have local networks with problems, and TiVo uses some advanced features that expose those problems. I don't know any major player that will debug your local network problems for free.

    If you want TiVo's help, you'll have to temporarily reconfigure your network so the TiVos don't go through any switches. This is exactly the same thing as I have had to do in the past to get Comcast to debug internet problems. It's exactly the same thing as most industry vendor support - they will only debug (for free) for you if you put your system in a known state. Anything else has to be paid for and specified in your contract.
     
  13. htruong74

    htruong74 New Member

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    Mar 29, 2014


    I have reconfigure my Tivo Roamio and Tivo Mini setup to their undocumented supported configuration specifications and they are making new excuses to not believe that v87 is a software issue. I have switch my Roamio OTA and Mini setup from network switch to Moca network. It was worst off and I had constant v87s than with my switches. They sent me two replacement Moca adapters and they also want me to add a Moca filter into the configuration. MY coaxial network is only connected to antenna on roof, pre-amp, then amp, and then a 4-way 1200 MHZ splitters to my Tivo's. They insist I need a moca filter at my cable modem to increase the coaxial signal. The cable modem is in another house and it's only providing internet via uplink to my switch. I am hoping they finally get someone to dump logs when they have run out of excuses.
     
  14. richy240

    richy240 New Member

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    Aug 2, 2005
    Wow I have a Mini connected three switches and a wireless bridge away from my Roamio and I don't have any of these problems. It actually works really well.
     
  15. Diana Collins

    Diana Collins Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    Aug 21, 2002
    New York...
    New example of there being a software problem:

    I was watching TV via one of our Minis yesterday and went into the guide to see what else was on. While browsing the guide a V87 error popped up, saying that connection to the host Roamio had been lost. However, at no point did the video stream stop. Other than the error on the screen there was no evidence anything had happened. I was forced to go back to the TiVo home screen, since that was the only way to clear the error message.
     
  16. lessd

    lessd Active Member

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    Jan 23, 2005
    CT
    I wonder how long the connection has to go down before the V87 error comes on, if it is only 0.1sec you may not notice the loss of connection, but the electronics does, and on comes the V87 error.
     
  17. PuterPro

    PuterPro New Member

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    Jan 29, 2008
    Hi All!

    Sadly I don't have much time in my schedule to be more active in the community, but I wanted to throw my 2 cents worth in here. Replies may not be looked at for months :D so a conversation with my participation won't happen. SORRY!

    I have 2 Roamios, run hard wired via Cat 5e, one setup to an antenna, the other setup to Comcast via cable. I record my most viewed shows OTA for better quality, and use the Comcast box for the cable only channels. The OTA box is in the other room from my main viewing area, so probably 80% of my viewing is "watch the other box". I therefore have a lot of experience with that pesky v87.

    My Comcast Internet is their max speed (105 Mbps) but running speed tests I routinely get 90 - 130 Mbps, so I've plenty of bandwidth out of the house. My Cable modem / router has its wireless off as I'm running a Netgear R6300 802.11 AC (Gigabit ports). The TiVo’s are on a gigabit switch off that box, both on the same switch. It's a TP-Link TL-SG1008G (8 Port).

    The connectors and wiring is all TESTED (I am a Tech after all ... :p ) and the house is only 7 years old. So, no wiring issues here. In chasing this stupid v87 I have physically swapped out every wire involved as well. It "AIN'T NOT THE WIRES" as they say in the deep south. I'm about to go on vacation, when I get back I'm replacing the switch with a higher quality one and will report back on that.

    I'm not a network engineer, but I have been troubleshooting networks since 1983, and have been a Certified Electronics Tech since 1969. I've seen a few things is my point ... :)

    I'm pretty convinced this v87 is software, and TiVo doesn't want to own it for some odd reason.

    It could be internal politics. People are people, and anyone who has worked with engineers and programmers knows they tend to be odd ducks, and often very opinionated. (Moi included LOL!) It's the nature of the beast. A Tech or engineer must troubleshoot, and be right. The people, who are responsible for the network software, or their immediate management, don't want to tackle this. Someone powerful there just doesn't want to deal with it. They know it's there; they don't want to own it.

    {Rant follows}
    This is absurd. They could tell us what switches they know don't work (Tech support could easily gather that data when people call or Email about the issue). They don't.

    They could also tell us what switches do work in their knowledge. They don't.

    Virtually everyone with a TiVo has a network, sometime complex ones. They could publish an online guide or PDF of how they want it hooked up IN A REAL WORLD ENVIRONMENT, including some variations to accommodate different setups. Do they show us how to setup? They don't.

    I do not doubt that some of the v87's are just people with crappy Chinese switches (I have one!), ancient routers that work via signal flags, or even grossly mis-wired combinations (one shudders to think what's out there). I'm sure there's a hardware component issue at work here in some cases.
    But - DO THEY GIVE US ANY GUIDANCE?? They don't.

    Now I get that they're not Netgear or Cisco and don't want to get into the network troubleshooting game (although, if you make a box that connects to a network by its basic, highly advertised, function you have no choice!).

    Many have reported that setting a static IP solves it in some cases, but the average DVR owner shouldn’t have to be a network engineer to solve TiVo’s problem! It’s their problem, not ours. Do they fix it? They don't. (It’s been around since V4 according to what I’ve read)

    However. {Insert pregnant pause here}
    It's a software issue. Why, you ask, since I just laid out a great case for the hardware side being at fault?
    Because it happens for me, and for many who have posted here, and for countless others who just suffer in silence, JUST BEFORE VIEWING THE END OF A LIVE SHOW BEING RECORDED THAT JUST ENDED!! Sometimes it remembers your place, sometime not.

    That's software folks, plain and simple.

    There's a communication occurring between the boxes at that point that drops the connection, and as someone suggested earlier, THEY COULD BUFFER FOR A SECOND when the drop occurs. They don't.

    :mad:

    It all adds up to: They don't.

    They could fix this. Someone there, I suspect some mid manger is defending his / her turf and is not owning up to this and not providing a solution. SOMEONE doesn't care, or doesn't want to be bothered.
    It's political, I'm sure, or the network engineers have reached the end of their knowledge and just can't figure out they need to trap the code and buffer it, OR it could be cost. Although it's not THAT expensive to task someone to draw a simple diagram of what's allowed and not on the hardware side with some suggested and forbidden equipment, but again, that's mid management.

    Ultimately, what the v87 error is truly about is a software problem coupled to an apathetic manager or someone who has no imagination to solve it. It's too low on the corporate radar for upper management to kick someone's butt.

    Only thing we can do is keep calling them and bitching. You want your v87 errors fixed? Call and put up with some 1st level or second level tech with no authority to tell you it's your entire fault. Eventually the numbers will rise and trigger a response. Personally, knowing corporations, I'm not holding my breath. :rolleyes:

    {END RANT}

    When back, I'll try running the TiVos through the Netgear R6300 rather than the switch, again, I don't have much time but I'll definitely try to report back. If no joy I'll try Static or an address range, but again, we shouldn't have to do this level of troubleshooting to get a consumer product to work.

    Thanks to all the posters who take their time to help others. :):up::up: I try to do that on several other Forums, but time's a hard thing to come by for me. {Sigh}


    All the Best, PuterPro
     
  18. JWhites

    JWhites New Member

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    May 14, 2013
    It's fully possible that even then the ticket will never reach an engineer. :(
     
  19. JWhites

    JWhites New Member

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    May 14, 2013
    Congrats on finding a solution! :up: Now I'm curious what you're doing with so many cameras. :eek: lol :p
     
  20. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
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