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V87 error. Tivo doesn't support switches. Huh?

Discussion in 'TiVo Mini' started by bunjicat, May 21, 2014.

  1. Alf Tanner

    Alf Tanner Tivo Dude

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    That sounds like a load of crap, I have one mini behind a router and a switch, then a second mini behind a router and 2 additional switches, plus the Roamio Pro is behind a switch already in addition to the main router. I've never once had problems related to the switches. In another thread I posted what switches I'm using in case that helps anybody.
     
  2. slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    On the other hand, Tivo has had known issues with some green switches. It might be a load of crap but they don't want to deal with it even if their boxes are causing the problem.
     
  3. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    I thought they fixed those issues? I remember when the Roamio was launched there were some issues with certain green switches. But an update in the fall fixed the issue.
     
  4. deaddeeds

    deaddeeds Go Hokies

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    I get V87 in spurts but then nothing for few weeks and then it will flare up again. I have not been able to root cause it because the fault code is so generic.

    But I have my entire house wired with Cat6 using a switch. I have a Roamio and 3 Minis. So there is no way I could put all 4 devices on the Verizon ActionCrap Modem because I would still need one port to feed the switch for all of the other devices.

    I think it is poor form of TiVo to make a blanket statement they don't support switches.

    Yes, I could move them over to MoCA but I should not have to. To me TiVo went down the path of the Mini and as a result they need to support switches.
     
  5. lessd

    lessd Active Member

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    I think that TiVo will work with a network switch, I don't know how one would be able to design a network piece of hardware that would know if it were connected to a switch or not (maybe one could measure the delay in the green type of switches), however, the more connections/switches used in any network system the more chance for some problem to come up. WiFi itself uses a switch with about 127 ports. TiVo support is just not going to give you any help if you are using switches external to your router itself.
     
  6. deaddeeds

    deaddeeds Go Hokies

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    Annandale, VA
    TiVo and Minis do work on the switch. I am not saying they don't work. I am saying TiVo should support and anticipate the users are going to use them on a switch. Not making a blank statement that they will not support them unless they are on the router/modem.
     
  7. CrispyCritter

    CrispyCritter Purple Ribbon Wearer

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    What do you expect TiVo to do?

    If you have a networking problem with the TiVo at this point, it is either caused by TiVo hardware (in which case the only recourse is replace the TiVo) or your local network. There's very little that can be done changing network setup on the TiVo itself.

    You seem to want them to fix your network for free - to have their tech support know all the foibles of various switches, routers, and wiring problems that can occur. That's extremely expensive in both training and on-line time. I don't know anybody that does it for free - ISPs like Comcast certainly won't - do you know anybody?
     
  8. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    Which are also using a switch. I would think it would be an unusual setup to not be using a switch.
     
  9. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    I'm sure you've seen me post about this many times (and may not fully agree), so I'll just post for the rest:

    The switches built into routers tend to have minimal, to moderate, management capabilities. Most TiVo users buy completely unmanaged switches (which should be fine, in theory, and in logic), which don't honor, or pass-along, what the management in the router's switch dictates.

    However, there are unmanaged switches that will play by the router's rules, thus making most of TiVo's arguments against added switches invalid. The standard specification for this is "Honors" or "Supports" "IEEE 802.1p priority tags", which will usually be buried in the fine print under what standards are supported, like IEEE 802.3az - Energy Efficient Ethernet (AKA: Green). They can often be bought for the same price, or a few dollars more than those that don't support the standard.

    I'm NOT saying that using these switches is a cure-all, or will force TiVo to stop telling everybody that every TiVo device must be plugged directly into the router ports (which are ports of a built-in switch).

    If TiVo truly "does not support switches", then their hard-line stance is contradictory, at face-value, and beyond.
     
  10. deaddeeds

    deaddeeds Go Hokies

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    I never said I want TiVo to come to my house and check out my network. But they could provide a list of switches they recommend. Provide a list of trouble shooting tips for TiVos connected to a switch.

    Having your first Tier phone support say sorry we don't support switches is not a good way to support your customers.
     
  11. CrispyCritter

    CrispyCritter Purple Ribbon Wearer

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    I'm not aware that this is TiVo policy or even that TiVo has ever said that. I certainly believe that TiVo support reps are not making their points clear, and it is certainly possible that some reps don't understand TiVo policy.

    What I'm hearing, reported here and in other threads, is that TiVo support will not debug potential network problems unless all TiVo devices are plugged directly into the router. I consider this reasonable and definitely in line with what everybody else does (in the past I've had to temporarily reconfigure my home networks in order to get Comcast help with internet problems (that turned out to be rain in a damaged line)).

    There's a big difference between TiVo telling folks that they won't debug problems if there are extra switches, and them telling folks that all TiVo devices must be plugged into router ports at all times ( and I agree their reps need more training to make this point clear to users, in that right now it obviously is not.)
     
  12. CrispyCritter

    CrispyCritter Purple Ribbon Wearer

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    They did that in the past, when wired and wireless connections were introduced, and it turned out to be very messy and very expensive in terms of support. Lots of unhappy folks here during that time with lots of complaints.

    They evidently swore never to do it again, and they changed to supporting only their own brand of wireless connection, and only their own approved external disks.
     
  13. Alf Tanner

    Alf Tanner Tivo Dude

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    The switches and routers I have on my network that appear to work well with TiVo
    Arris TM722 cable modem
    Asus N66u router (merlin firmware)
    Linksys E4200 V1 router (Ver.1.0.05 Build 7 firmware)
    D-Link DGS-2208 green switch
    D-Link DGS-1100-08 managed switch
    D-Link DGS-1008G smart switch
     
  14. htruong74

    htruong74 New Member

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    Tivo's policy on this matter is the worst. They will not provide support for Tivo's using their Ethernet interface. It's not if it's a type of router or switch. Their only supported configuration is MOCA. I have tried to escalate my incident and they made an excuse by pointing to my switch networking and upgraded HD on my Tivo Roamio Basic. Throughout the case, they never ask how it's connected to the network, or model of my switch.

    My Tivo's actually connected to one Asus N66U router with Merlin firmware. And my v87 problem is not network related at all. I work in IT for over 10 years to understand how to troubleshoot things. These issues will not be addressed if other folks (with non-modified Tivo) that are affected do not call in and escalate. I am not going to remove my 3tb out of my Tivo Roamio Basic. And even if I do, they will make other excuses.

    *** email from tivo

    Thank you for contacting TiVo Customer Support! This is a response to your current issue that is noted on reference number 140526-003624. We have researched this case further. Two issues we see are that you are attempting to use a switch as part of your networking setup. Additionally it appears the internal hard-drive of the DVR has been modified with a larger drive. With an unsupported network and hard-drive, we have no additional troubleshooting steps to offer. If you have any questions please contact us using any of the following methods.

    Customer Support Line at 877-367-8486
    E-mail team at http://support.tivo.com/app/ask.
    Chat team at http://support.tivo.com/app/chat/chat_launch

    Replies directly to this email will not be received.

    Taylor
    TiVo Advanced Escalations
     
  15. Diana Collins

    Diana Collins Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    I've been in computer systems infrastructure for most of my career and so I am the "LAN consultant" for most of my friends. At least 50% of the LANs I see are poorly configured (chains or trees of switches, gigabit switches and devices plugged into fast Ethernet switches, routers plugged into routers, etc.). While some of the folks responding to this thread (including myself) may have well designed networks, we are in the minority. Therefore, I can't seriously fault TiVo support for wanting as many variables as possible removed from the network before being willing to troubleshoot (it is also just good troubleshooting procedure). As others have said, this message is getting distorted when talking to the CSRs but that is also par for the course.

    As far as pushing folks towards MOCA goes, it is not an unusual practice. DirecTV, for example, will not support ANY method of DVR interconnection besides MOCA (or DECA as their version is usually called). Implementing MOCA is so simple I don't really get the resistance. While MOCA is only about as fast as Fast Ethernet, that is really more than adequate for the average user and keeps all the TiVo to TiVo traffic off your LAN (and vice versa). Few people have more than 100Mbit internet connections, so it won't effect downloads. The only thing that will be enhanced by gigabit connections between TiVos is copying recordings between DVRs. If that is your issue, you can get into a supported config by plugging your DVRs into your router and only configuring one of them to use both Ethernet and MOCA, while leaving the other on Ethernet only, at least while debugging the problem.

    It seems to me that if a company earning billions a year (DirecTV) refuses to support Ethernet at all, it is not all that surprising that TiVo has decided to limit the network configurations it can support.
     
  16. bunjicat

    bunjicat New Member

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    So I started this thread and just want to update what I came up with and how (knock on wood) I solved it. My current setup has all my devices connected to the same network segment. I have 5 surveillance cameras and a server that are blasting video recordings and live stream data 24/7 on the switch that has all the Tivo's connected together. On a whim I decided to implement port based vlan, segmenting off the video camera equipment from the rest of the network. Havn't had a v87 since it was implemented a week and a half ago. There might have been packet collisions, maybe some bonjour (Tivo Beacon?) multicast interference from the cameras. Not sure. I know it wasn't the switch because it happened with a cheap Netgear and a enterprise Juniper switch. So far so good.
     
  17. dianebrat

    dianebrat I refuse to accept your reality TCF Club

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    I call a flag on the play! facts not in evidence!!!

    :D
     
  18. bunjicat

    bunjicat New Member

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    Lol. But come on! An enterprise switch shouldn't flinch at such load.
     
  19. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    Even a consumer switch is fine. I have a dozen IP cameras sending video 24/7 over a segment of my network to a PC running Blue Iris and Tivo Desktop. If I connect a Mini to that segment it will still work fine with my DLink, unmanaged, GigE switches.
     
  20. dianebrat

    dianebrat I refuse to accept your reality TCF Club

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    But it is a valid point that when someone is having connection issues we assume a standard consumer network and devices, you threw a series of high-bandwidth usage on it but didn't mention it.

    FWIW this is exactly why Tivo won't support more complicated networks, and in that aspect you've proved them right in why they don't/shouldn't do it IMNSHO.
     

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