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TWC Hawaii moving all HD to SDV

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by HiKent, Aug 27, 2007.

  1. Mar 4, 2008 #161 of 436
    clark_kent

    clark_kent Member

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    May 6, 2007
    The cablecard in my friends box:

    Multi-Stream
    SA PowerKEY Model PKM802
    3/24/07
    HW 1.2
    "F"

    I don't know anything about SA cablecards to comment on any difference between a PKM800 and a PKM802, hopefully, someone knowledgeable can comment...

    So, we took the cablecard and a TiVoHD to a safe house and tried our best to make sure that we were not followed... the cable service at the safe house is "standard analog" level of service... plugged the cablecard into a TiVoHD that has never had a cablecard in it... got a grey screen message with instructions to call Oceanic... ignored the message and did the guided setup... it looks like the guide data is all there for "all" Oceanic channels including analog/digital/HD/Premium/On-demand/PPV... all the analog channels came in fine... all the local HD channels came in fine and they all had guide data... most of the channels that are listed as being "available with" cablecard came in fine... none of the Premium/On-demand/PPV came in (as expected since they are encrypted) but they did have guide data...

    There was no "pairing" or "authorizing" or "hit" from Oceanic, but, obviously, this particular cablecard has been in the "Oceanic system" so what if anything that has to do with it's level of "functionality" vs a "virgin" cablecard (from the open market) is uncertain...

    Obviously, we also do not know if the cablecard acquired by HawaiiTivoLover actually "works" and is fully functional or is perhaps defective or crippled in someway...

    Acquire (on the open market) a "new" or fully functional and "working" PKM800 or PKM802, would still make for an interesting experiment... in my humble opinion, I think there is a reasonable chance that you could get all your local (unencrypted) HD channels WITH guide data, assuming that is all you wanted from your cable...

    Maybe someone will try this on a Motorola system with a Motorola M-Card... I don't know why, but my expectation on the likely hood of this experiment working (getting guide data for local HD) is higher with a multi-stream (SA or Moto) card then a single stream card.
     
  2. Mar 4, 2008 #162 of 436
    cableguy763

    cableguy763 New Member

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    Oct 29, 2006
    Austin
    A powerkey 800 card is the card that is for UDCP boxes, 802 is for cable co boxes. I can't see how they differ.
     
  3. Mar 4, 2008 #163 of 436
    clark_kent

    clark_kent Member

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    May 6, 2007
    Pardon me for being suspect of what the cable industry says and does...

    Are you saying that the "label" is truly the only difference between a PowerKEY 800 and 802... please don't misunderstand, but could you comment on how you know this...

    Why would SA make two different versions of the same multi-stream card and have one version specifically for UDCP (TiVo type) boxes and a different version specifically for there own box??? After all, it's not the cablecard that makes any box unidirectional or by-directional... given the cable industries "practice" and love for cable cards, it would not surprise me to find more of a difference then just the label.
     
  4. Mar 4, 2008 #164 of 436
    s1_junkie

    s1_junkie New Member

    40
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    Sep 27, 2007
    Another CableCard story:

    Last September I filed 3 complaints with the State D.C.C.A.; these were then passed on to OTW. On Saturday I received in the mail a letter from OTW. It only took 5 months for OTW to respond, that says something about priorities:

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Oceanic Time Warner
    February 20, 2008.

    Dear S1_Junkie (name changed to protect the vigilante)

    I am writing to you in response to your letter to the Department of Commerce and Consumer affairs, CATV Division.

    We have investigated your concerns and have made sure that you are receiving all the one-way services that we provide to our customers subscribing to your level of service.

    Oceanic Time Warner Cable supports the ability of Unidirectional Digital Cable Products (“UDCP”) to access our one-way services and will continue to do so in the future. However, we are providing certain channels in other areas as two-way services.

    Because UDCPs are one-way devices, they cannot access two-way services. Accordingly, if you would like to view those channels on your UDCP, you must obtain the necessary equipment – specifically, a set-top box with two-way capabilities.

    Sincerely,
    (Signed)
    Norman P. Santos
    Vice President, Operations

    Cc: Glen Chock, D.C.C.A.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Yes, the last 3 sentences were as entered here - lets say confusing.
    (e.g. accorting to view with your TiVo you must get a set top box?!)

    Clearly OTW does not get it. I wrote back, and to the DCCA:
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    TiVo Vigalante Towers
    March 4, 2008

    Norman Santos
    VP Operations
    Oceanic Time Warner
    200 Akamainui Street
    Mililani
    HI 96789-3999

    Dear Mr. Santos,

    Thank you for your letter dated February 20th, and postmarked February 28th, in response to my Hawaii Dept. Commerce and Consumer Affairs Complaints dated September 17th, September 27th, and September 28th. And also, I assume, in response to emails exchanged between myself and Oceanic between October 2nd and October 31st the last of which asked a manager to contact me.

    I understand that your letter draws a distinction between a “UDCP” and a “set-top box with two way capabilities”. And also between “one way service” and “two way service”. While I can imagine these views help in addressing Oceanic’s internal operations, they do not address Oceanic’s customer service obligations or Oceanic’s obligations to the FCC on which customers depend. These obligations are the issue.

    In the context of these obligations the FCC’s ‘Plug and Play’ documentation ( http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/plugandplaytv.html ) is the gold standard. There are two alternatives, both described in the document: 1) “one-way programming only, including analog basic, digital basic, and digital premium cable programming” requiring “digital cable ready” consumer equipment; and 2) “advanced digital cable services like pay-per-view, video-on-demand, cable operator enhanced program guide, or interactive data enhanced television service” for this “you will need a set-top box”.

    Note that one-way programming includes analog basic, digital basic, and digital premium cable programming. Also note the definitions are in terms of the programming or the viewer usage, not the distribution technology.

    I believe Oceanic’s service does not comply with its obligations because many channels of “one-way programming” are currently unavailable for third party digital cable ready equipment (on Oceanic’s web site labeled as “CableCard”). Oceanic’s non-compliance includes, but may not be limited to:

    1) Channels labeled on the web site as part of, for example, “Digital Cable Service” are labeled “Not available with CableCard”. Clearly this is not in compliance as such channels fall within the FCC’s “one-way programming” criterion and must be made available for digital cable ready equipment such as CableCard equipment. The list of these channels is extensive.

    2) There are several instances of the same programming available in standard definition and on a separate channel in high definition (e.g. TBS, History). But the HD channel is not available to CableCard users on third party boxes. Only the resolution and the aspect ratio are different, the programming is the same; any claim that programming is anything but one-way in both cases is clearly ludicrous.

    3) Oceanic leases set top boxes that contain a CableCard; strangely the HD channels listed on the Oceanic website as “Not Available with CableCard” are available on these Oceanic supplied CableCard boxes, but not on third party CableCard boxes. The criterion for HD channels seems to be who supplies the set top box. I’m pretty sure the intent of the regulation is that this would not be the case. Perhaps the web site should say “Not Available with TiVo, etc.”.

    4) In the second half of 2007, the availability of some channels to third party CableCard equipment changed. The character of the programming did not change; the third party CableCard equipment did not significantly change. In a letter to customers dated August 21 Oceanic explicitly announced discontinued service of some one-way programming to third party CableCard equipment. This was explained (I paraphrase) by Oceanic’s choice to install equipment that was not backwards compatible (or choice to operate such equipment in a non-backwards compatible manner). This service discontinuation is a result of Oceanic’s choice and not of the programming, one-way or otherwise.

    I am sure you will agree, Oceanic’s service must comply with FCC regulation. I do not believe this is currently the case as I have illustrated above. So I request Oceanic use its best efforts to make CableCard users whole without delay.

    Please view this as an opportunity to provide solutions to your customers using third party equipment; we exist, it is simply good customer service to acknowledge that. I expect you have options; I look forward to hearing your proposal to allow your customers to fully utilize their equipment.

    Regards

    (Signed)

    S1_Junkie

    Cc: Glen Chock, D.C.C.A. 

    ----------------------------------------------------------------


    Glen Chock
    State of Hawaii
    Cable Television Division
    Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs
    335 Merchant Street
    PO Box 541
    Honolulu
    HI 96809

    Dear Mr. Chock,

    After five months I finally received a response from Norman Santos of Oceanic; I expect you have seen a copy by now. I have replied to him, a copy is attached.

    In my opinion Oceanic’s position seems unchanged, in summary: Oceanic has chosen to install new equipment which is not backwards compatible, so Oceanic refuses to comply with the FCC’s Plug and Play rules.

    I request the State start an investigation.

    Regards
    (Signed)
    S1_Junkie
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    I keep trying......

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    BTW, Encore and Showtime still dont work :(
     
  5. Mar 4, 2008 #165 of 436
    s1_junkie

    s1_junkie New Member

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    Sep 27, 2007
    Very interesting, thank you.
     
  6. Mar 5, 2008 #166 of 436
    clark_kent

    clark_kent Member

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    May 6, 2007
    What the heck happened to cableguy763's last post???

    Can you re-call or delete your own post???

    Can a moderator or someone delete a post???

    Anyway... I was working on a reply to cableguy763... since that post has gone AWOL, I can't very well "quote" the missing post, I don't know if I'm braking some posting protocol or posting etiquette but I've decided to post my reply to the missing post anyway...

    To paraphrase the missing cableguy763 post:

    1. cableguy763 guessed that the 800 and 802 cards are the same except for color of the label
    2. cableguy763 has made a 802 works in a TiVo but it had to be paired correctly
    3. cableguy763 felt that cable is following FCC mandate
    4. cableguy763 felt that cable loves for you to spend $600 on an S3 with a three year (TiVo) commitment since then you will be a cable subscriber for three years and cable has three years of revenue

    So, my rely to the missing post:

    The operative word in your comment on the difference between the 800 and 802 is "guess," and your "guess" may be correct, but my "guess" is that there could very well be more of a difference then just the color of the label...

    As to you comment that the 802 "works fine as long as it is paired correctly" (that is a quote from the missing post) is not correct at all and has been disproved... please read post #161 above.

    You say "cable is following the FCC's mandate" (again a quote from the missing post)... are you KIDDING or what??? I could follow up by asking if you work for the cable industry... but with a statement like "cable is following the FCC's mandate," I don't think there is any point in asking...

    I'm sorry, but IMHO, your notion that cable "loves" TiVo or ANY box other then there own box sucking signal at the end of the coax is a dilution... I don't have any real numbers, but it would not be any big surprised to find a significant number of TiVo customers subscribing to "basic" or "standard" level of cable service... that's NOT where the money is for cable... even over three whole years... if you don't have a "cable" box, there is no PPV, there is no On-Demand, there is no spur-of-the-moment "lets watch this game," there is no "impulse buying" of anything... on Oceanic, there are some 50 (FIFTY!!!) PPV/OD channels... just where do you think the BIG money is and why cable wants everyone to have a "cable" box... and BIG $$$ PROFITS is why a simple minded (one-way) cablecard just will not do...

    And, some thoughts on SDV: the cable industry probably has bandwidth issues, after all, they need more and more channels dedicated to $$$PPV (they already have 50, but need more)... a bonus of SDV (to the cable industry) is that it stops cablecard adoption dead in its tracks... another bonus of SDV (to cable) is that you will need yet another outboard box (from cable) as a "tuning resolver."

    PS: I'd sure like to know what happened to cableguy763 post... I hit refresh to see if anyone else had added anything before I posted my replied, but it was simply gone and repeated refresh and back-steps have not brought it back...
     
  7. Mar 5, 2008 #167 of 436
    cableguy763

    cableguy763 New Member

    525
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    Oct 29, 2006
    Austin
    Clark, I deleted my post because I do not want to get in a spitting contest with you in particular. I do know that your testing of an 802 card in a tivo proved little. You DO NOT get encrypted channels. You never will if that card is not paired to the headend. You will get the EXACT same results plugging in a 800 card. The 802 cards are paired in cable boxes the exact same way as an 800 is in a udcp, thus following the fcc mandate that boxes use the same separable security as udcp. Thats what I meant by following the mandate. What I did find interesting though is that the guide matched the channel maps. Good find.

    I honestly feel your pain over losing a lot of channels to sdv. The market I live in has more than otw. I have seen several announcements from tivo and ncta over the tuning resolver, and am anxiously waiting for it to come out.

    I also would speculate that 75% of tivo hd users have cablecards that subscribe to digital services. If this were an tivo hd that worked with satellite, most would be satellite subscribers. This is why I say cable loves the fact that you are at least subscribing to something from them. Seems like an obvious point to me.
     
  8. Mar 5, 2008 #168 of 436
    GiantsFan24

    GiantsFan24 New Member

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    Jan 3, 2008
    Makakilo,...
    I want to weigh in on the credibility of cableguy763, since it has been more-or-less impugned by clark_kent. Cableguy is a well-known and highly appreciated contributor in TCF, especially in the Official Time Warner thread. He goes out of his way to help users who are having cablecard problems. I hope he gets paid for the time he spends troubleshooting problems for TCF posters from Austin. It would be nice if we had a local cable rep here who was as dedicated to customer service as cableguy.

    I almost fell out of my chair when I read clark_kent ask cableguy to "comment on how [he] knows this." Cableguy has built his street cred in TCF. Clark_kent?...not so much.

    I hope cableguy continues to contribute to this thread; it's to our benefit to have a knowledgeable rep from TWC participating.
     
  9. Mar 5, 2008 #169 of 436
    Icarus

    Icarus New Member

    360
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    Jun 15, 2002
    Upcountry...
    I really think the discussion of alternate cc's is getting off the topic of this thread anyway.

    But that's just my personal opinion, though staying on topic does make the email notification of new posts to this thread a bit more pertinent.

    Thanks,
    David
     
  10. Mar 5, 2008 #170 of 436
    clark_kent

    clark_kent Member

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    May 6, 2007

    cableguy763, thank you for the clarification, I appreciate you getting back... I'm not looking for any spitting contest either... sorry about misunderstanding your comment regarding cable following FCC mandate... please accept my apology... had no intention of trowing any undeserved stones... I also did not intended to discredit your comments regarding the 800/802 cards and the label being the only difference... I have a big distrust of the cable industry... hope we're good and the community will continue to see your valued contributions... and one last note: when you say "with you in particular" I hope I have not inadvertently offended you (or anyone else) in some other post.

    I would like to clarify the intent and purpose of experimenting with an "open market" cablecard that is not paired or authorized:

    1. It was never my intent to encourage or to condone theft of cable service.

    2. It was never my intent for this to be a way for someone to receive encrypted or unauthorized channels.

    3. It was never intended for those that want premium/PPV or other encrypted services, which requires a paired and authorized cablecard.

    There are a lot of TiVo users that just simply want guide data for local HD channels without being extorted and forced to sign up for cable services that is not wanted... "cabecard service" typically requires a lot more $$$ then just the few dollars for the cablecard fee itself... if cable would let customers have a cablcard for $5 and not "require/extort" subscription to other services, we wouldn't be having any discussions about this....

    Having said all that, I have no qualm or issue "experimenting" and suggesting the use of "open sourced" cablecards for the purpose of getting guide data for UNencrypted local HD channels that are being paid for and are part of "basic or standard" cable service... if you're paying for the service and receiving the channel, cable should not come along and extorting other extra fees just so you can have guide data...

    What did my experiment prove: most importantly, it proved that you CAN get channel guide data for unencrypted channels by using a cablcard that is not paired or authorized...

    Does this one experiment prove that it will always work or you will always be able to get guide data for unencrypted channels: absolutely not... can you expect to get guide data for unencrypted channels with a different (but functioning) "virgin" cablecard: maybe... will this method work in other cable markets, or on other cable systems (like Moto): maybe...

    Cable has a government license to operate a monopoly... that monopoly provides cable with huge profits... since cable has no social/moral corporate conscience, it's kind of like having a license to steel... with the huge profits that cable rakes in, one would think they would be grateful, and showed a bit of gratitude by having fair and reasonable policies... making customers pay for services they don't want just to be able to receive guide data is not fair or reasonable.
     
  11. Mar 6, 2008 #171 of 436
    clark_kent

    clark_kent Member

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    May 6, 2007
    I re-read my last post (#170) and I should have made two separate posts... my first post should have just stopped with the above... and I should have made a second, seperate post to "clarify" the cablecard experiment...

    The "clarification" part of my previous post (#170) might be misconstrued and perhaps (to some) sounded like I was still ragging on cableguy763... I was not, and I did not intend to sound as if I was... my apologies if that is how it came across to anyone.
     
  12. Mar 6, 2008 #172 of 436
    sfhub

    sfhub Active Member

    1,270
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    Jan 6, 2007
    Pairing is only needed for CCI=non-zero channels. If your card is activated and the channel is authorized, the card will decrypt the channel. If CCI=0x00 you will be able to see the resulting channel.

    If CCI=non-zero, then after the card decrypts, it will need to re-encrypt before sending the data across the bus to the TiVo. It is here that the pairing information is needed and if pairing is broken, the CableCARD will not be able to re-encrypt and you will not see the channel.

    Pairing's main design goal is for copy protection.
     
  13. Mar 7, 2008 #173 of 436
    docnaks

    docnaks New Member

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    Oct 17, 2007
    Wow, I'm getting very confused here. I hope someone can explain this to me in very simple terms.
    I have a Series3 and an S2DT. I live in Hawaii and my father subscribes to TW Oceanic. He has the TW SA HD DVR; and subscribes to the HD package, HBO, Cinemax, etc (not that he even watches it...he's addicted to Korean dramas).
    I don't use the S3 for HD programming...and don't plan to in the near future, because I don't have an HD TV yet (my wife says we need our own house first). Basically all I want to do is get the standard digital channels (I don't even care if I get any of the subscription channels, although it would be nice).
    So if I went on Ebay and bought the right CableCards (I know I need 2), will it work? A simple yes or no will do. I don't need to know if it should or could work.

    Thanks. Sorry for the dumb question, but all this talk of pairing and CCI is making my head swim.
     
  14. Mar 7, 2008 #174 of 436
    clark_kent

    clark_kent Member

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    May 6, 2007
    Unfortunately (as with a lot of stuff), the answer to your question is not a simple "yes" or "no" ...

    However, in your case, I don't think a cablecard will do all that much good (if any good at all) since you're not interested in HD programs... you don't need a cablecard for the "standard" channels... and, I don't know if the PQ between an "analog" KHNL channel 8 versus "digital" KHNLDT channel 88 is actually all that discernible... I think both channels (8/88) are 480i (SD)... so, why bother with the an ebay cablecard at all?
     
  15. docnaks

    docnaks New Member

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    Oct 17, 2007
    Sorry, I should have clarified my reasoning for wanting some of the digital stations. My son loves PBS Kids (443), and my mom watches a lot of NGN (677). Being able to record shows on these digital stations would be great without that ugly STB.
    So no dice, eh? Damn.
     
  16. GiantsFan24

    GiantsFan24 New Member

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    Jan 3, 2008
    Makakilo,...
    Yep, no dice. But is there a reason why you don't want to get a cablecard thru OTW (besides the obvious headache of dealing with OTW)? You're going to need the digital service anyway, and renting a cablecard is cheaper than renting a settop box. There are lots of horror stories on this forum about hassles getting cablecards to work, but my experience was short and sweet -- it took about an hour, and everything on both cablecards was working. And (I think), you don't need two cablecards if all you want is a single tuner. AFAIK, the S3 will work fine with a single card (but I'm happy to be corrected on this if other folks know different). So if you don't care about not getting most of the HD channels (you don't) and you already have the S3 (you do), it seems like you might as well get the cablecard(s) from OTW.
     
  17. clark_kent

    clark_kent Member

    118
    0
    May 6, 2007
    This question does not have a simple "yes" or "no" answer...

    Some of the issues that may cause a cablecard to work or not work and makes the answer to your question a definite "maybe" are:

    1. The cablecard you get on the open market (ebay, or where ever) may be defective, even if it is represented to be new.

    2. The cablecard you get may not be defective but is perhaps de-activated or somehow crippled by cable company... maybe some cablecard experts can comment on this and let us know if in fact a cablecard can be rendered in-operable or somehow crippled.

    3. If the cablecard you get is not defective and is not crippled, it may still not work. Even though the cablecard I tried did work without the magical "paring/authorizing," the card had been active and working (installed) in the Oceanic system... I don't know if "having been active in the system" is a factor or not.

    HawaiiTivoLover got a cablecard on ebay and said that it did not work... if the reason it did not work is either 1 or 2 above, then a different card will "maybe" work but if the reason it did not work is number 3, then the answer is definitely "no, it will not work" and we're all sol (on getting guide data for local HD) until TiVo gives us the ability to edit the channel map/list...

    Check the Oceanic channel list at:

    http://www.oceanic.com/OceanicWebApps/Television/DigitalServices/DCL_Oahu.html

    The result of one experiment demonstrated that all channels designated as "not available" for cablecard did not work and all Premium or PPV did not work; "Basic Service," "Value Service" and all "local HD" did work as did (most all) "Included with all Digital Services;" channel 677 is a "Premium Services" channel and did not work; channel 443 is a "Included with all "Digital Services" channel and it did work.

    If you're the type that likes to take chances and experiment, get yourself a open market cablecard and play (if you do, let us know how you make out)... otherwise, don't bother... hope that helps.
     
  18. docnaks

    docnaks New Member

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    Oct 17, 2007
    Thanks for the advice...will stick w/ basic for now. I have an S2DT hooked up to a STB to record 677 and 443. At least w/ MRV I can watch it on the S3.
     
  19. Icarus

    Icarus New Member

    360
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    Jun 15, 2002
    Upcountry...
    Update: These channels come in on my OTW HD DVR but not on my S3. I talked to CSR last week. They tried to re-auth the cable cards, still nothing, so they scheduled a truck roll.

    A week later, the truck gets here, the guy checks with his supervisor and tells me that they won't authorize these 4 channels on my CCs. But there's still no SDV on Maui. I have a call in to a foreman I've worked with before to try to find out what's going on there.

    It seems silly that they had to do a truck roll just to tell me that CCs won't get these four channels, doesn't it?

    I'll see what I can find out when the foreman calls me back.

    -David
     
  20. Icarus

    Icarus New Member

    360
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    Jun 15, 2002
    Upcountry...
    I finally talked to a supervisor today. He said that they decided to not authorize the 4 new HD channels on CCs on Maui since they are moving to SDV in May on Maui. He had no real knowledge about the tuning resolver either.

    He implied they would have had to do something to make the four new channels work on the CCs now (at least on the islands that don't have SDV yet), but I have no idea what that could be other than authorizing them on the CCs.

    I really hope that the tuning resolver will be available soon.

    I wonder if I'm the only on Maui with an S3 or THD.

    -David
     

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