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Tivo Stream Outside of Home Network?

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by rspike, Aug 21, 2013.

  1. mr_smits

    mr_smits New Member

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    This is silly. Streaming in the home and out of the home should not matter if confined to an existing user's account. Slingbox technology is not going to be ruled illegal, so why would Tivo hide behind fringe lawsuits that take years to pan out. By that time, everyone will be offering out of house streaming, and the small advantage Tivo has will be gone.
     
  2. slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    You're making a HUGE assumption that Tivo actually verified with CableLabs that it was explicitly not allowed. I think the truth more likely lies in staying in bed with their MSO partners, because that's where the money is. Retail customers always get the shaft from Tivo w/CCI.
     
  3. dlfl

    dlfl Cranky old novice

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    So?? I easily could have been mislead when considering a Roamio purchase. Fortunately I read these forums so avoided that.
    There's a big space between "big letters" and the obscure statement buried in a FAQ. I think an asterick linked to a footnote explaining the copy protection limitations would be OK.
    TWC Tivo customers have complained --- in writing --- for years and TWC responds with lawyer letters explaining they have a legal right to copy protect (which is correct). I could provide a link to at least one large thread on this forum detailing this but it isn't worth digging up. TWC is the second largest MSO and Tivo has known about this for more than three years. The least they could do is be more open about letting potential buyers know about the limitation.

    I have to wonder how many of you grin-and-bear-it posters have actually suffered from the TTG (and now, OOH) limitations imposed by TWC. :rolleyes:
     
  4. slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    So another question is, if Tivo is so damn worried about OOH streaming, why has Slingbox been doing it for years and not been sued? Don't you think Tivo would point this out to CableLabs or any MSO as a precedent? Yeah I know, analog vs. digital, but it's not as if component outputs have gone away on the boxes.
     
  5. Fofer

    Fofer XenForo Rocks! TCF Club

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    Indeed. Why else did TiVo introduce streaming then? As an antidote to the CCI ("copy once") flag. They should strap on a set of balls and let streaming work outside the home, too. Because the fact of the matter is, if I'm at home I'm going to be watching on the TiVo/TV anyway. This function and feature is only useful to me on an iPad (and many others, I imagine) if they opened it up to work outside the home as it works inside the home.

    I'm just tired of TiVo being slow and meek about these things, it's always so disappointing. They need to be more aggressive and innovative, IMO.
     
  6. JosephB

    JosephB Member

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    How do you know Sling technology won't be ruled illegal, especially in the context of being integrated into a cable box? The only reason TiVo is in business today is because other companies said "damn the torpedoes" and infringed on TiVo's patents and TiVo raked it in pretty big. I'm sure they are not itching to jump in feet first without making sure they're not making the same mistakes Echostar/Dish, AT&T, Scientific Atlanta, Motorola, and Time Warner made.

    How am *I* making a huge assumption? It's not that unreasonable to think that CCI, something CableLabs wanted in the spec, would be pushed further into new features by CableLabs. We're all making assumptions here. How reasonable those assumptions turn out to be is a matter of opinion.

    And, even if they are simply kowtowing to the MSOs, so what? Without the MSO deals they've signed, they'd be out of business. The lawsuit judgements they got from the various companies they sued would last only so long. At the end of the day the MSOs are also their customers, and it's in TiVo's interest to make their most important customers happy. If that's the MSOs, then sucks to be us. TiVo does a lot of things for retail customers that I think suck (pause ads for example) and those you can legitimately gripe about, because that's doing nothing for the MSOs. But if there's a constrained environment that they live within, and going outside of those constraints would mean their going out of business, I can't fault them for it.

    Dish is currently involved in litigation revolving around both the commercial skipping and the Sling technology in the Hopper.
     
  7. bradleys

    bradleys It'll be fine....

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    I actually agree with you... I do think that Tivo at least owes its customers an answer to the question "why not"

    It would be one thing if the CCI language addressed streaming, but it does not. So either a dictate came down from Cable Labs that provided a legal guidlines for implementing stream - or Tivo made this decision on their own to avoid the possibility of litigation from the MSO's.

    Since Cable Labs is a government organization, the proceedings are open and any guidance should be FOIA available.

    If TiVo is so littigation weary that they just want to avoid any possibility (or direct threat) of littigation - at least be direct in the promotional materials.

    If this just impacted HBO, It wouldn't really be that big of a deal. But with TWC - it really is a major pain for those customers.

    I am glad I have FIOS!!!!

    Maybe they are waiting from the DISH litigation to run its course:

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57...urt-to-block-sales-of-dish-hopper-with-sling/
     
  8. JosephB

    JosephB Member

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    CableLabs is not a government organization. It is an industry trade group founded by the cable companies.

    No company is going to say, especially in marketing material, "function X doesn't work like Y because we are worried about getting sued." You might get the CEO eventually to say something in an interview somewhere, but those kinds of things really don't come out publicly in general.

    And if TWC is misusing the CCI flag, that is TWC's fault, not TiVo's. Customers should be complaining to TWC and the FCC. Actually, you probably would have a case to make with the FCC since TWC has a lot of streaming apps nowdays over IP services, and their setting of the CCI flag prevents you from using TiVo.
     
  9. wmcbrine

    wmcbrine Ziphead

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    You speak as though CableLabs and the MSOs were two separate things. They're not.

    CableLabs is certainly not a government organization. It's a private, ostensibly non-profit corporation, owned by the cable companies.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CableLabs
     
  10. bradleys

    bradleys It'll be fine....

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    Okay, I misunderstood the authority granted to cablelabs to determine and interpret these content based regulations. That is fine...

    What I have found is that even Sling will not allow you to place-shift protected content. Requiring the analog connection to bypass HDCP protections.

    http://placeshiftingenthusiasts.com/slingbox-500-setup-steps-and-review/

    This ruling on place-shifting has to come from someplace - and everyone says that the CCI Byte has no language on streaming (place shifting). Isn't this the same thing?

    I know that the CCI Byte is one specific control mechanism and isn't necessarily the same as HDCP protections - but those are all mechanisms for the same outcome:

    Limiting the number of times a user can copy content, and apparently limiting the ability to place-shift content.
     
  11. CrispyCritter

    CrispyCritter Purple Ribbon Wearer

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    CableLabs is not a government organization by any measure. It's composed of, and governed by, the cable companies (you have to be cable company to be a member, and the board of directors are CEOs of major companies.) So there's no hope of information there.

    My belief has always been that even in-house streaming is probably a violation of the CableLabs regulations; I went through the regulations pretty carefully back when TiVo first started with cable cards, looking for ways that TiVo could move CCI protected shows. IMO, in-house is only being allowed because Dish and DirecTV did it first - they're not subject to CableLabs or cablecard regulations. The cable companies won't give that competitive advantage to the satellite companies.

    So far, it's not clear what CableLabs (ie, Time Warner since nobody else cares as much) will allow. I think TiVo is hoping that CableLabs will allow out-of-house at some point, so they don't want to preclude it in their advertising. None of us know whether TiVo has talked to CableLabs or has any ideas about when this will be decided. The language TiVo uses now is very circumspect, and will fit the situation no matter which way CableLabs goes.
     
  12. dlfl

    dlfl Cranky old novice

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    Simple answer: Cable TV (MSO's and their CableLabs) has a lot more leverage on Tivo than they do on SlingBox. Poor implementation and support of CableCARD, and even worse Tuning Adapters, is already hurting Tivo. If Tivo provokes the MSO's they could do a lot worse. (Please don't claim the FCC would prevent it. They haven't been able to prevent the poor support that's already going on.) SlingBox has no reason to be concerned about good relations with Cable TV.
     
  13. mr_smits

    mr_smits New Member

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    Common sense and history about the evolution of technology? The same reason VCRs, mp3s, file sharing, and torrents are not illegal. You can't put the genie back into the bottle. Tivo should take advantage while they even have an advantage to take!

    Don't conflate the issues with commercial skipping and Sling technology. Two separate issues even though one company, DISH, is pushing them both.
     
  14. JosephB

    JosephB Member

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    The inability of Sling to copy HDCP protected content output over HDMI is an HDMI restriction. They could not get a license for HDMI or HDCP if they broke that rule. You can't output HDCP protected content to any non-secure display. That's another reason Sling can do things TiVo cannot, Sling still has the analog hole to slip through. TiVo cannot do that without going back to the old way of using boxes and IR blasters and blech.


    Cable companies do in-house streaming, too. I think the difference is that theoretically you could do "in house streaming" by stringing wires between all the TVs and one box. Moving content outside of your house is a whole other story. The MSOs see themselves as selling a subscription to a location, not a person. That is the big difference.
     
  15. CrispyCritter

    CrispyCritter Purple Ribbon Wearer

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    That's not the difference according to the cablecard regulations. The regulations were pretty clear on a full copy of a show not escaping the cablecard device, unless it was an approved method (I think Firewire was being looked at) to an approved device. That's a reason why TiVo has not wanted to put full copies of shows on their external disk extenders, IMO.

    Yes, the cable companies do in-house streaming now, but the satellite companies were first. That's why, IMO, TiVo was allowed to do it - because the cable companies were planning on doing it themselves in response to the satellite companies, and CableLabs would get into major hot water if they prohibited TiVo from doing it.
     
  16. Fofer

    Fofer XenForo Rocks! TCF Club

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    This is not true.

    From June 2013:

    Engadget: DirecTV GenieGo takes the fight to Sling, brings TV streaming anywhere on PC and iOS

     
  17. jimmypowder

    jimmypowder New Member

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    I'm glad Tivo took this step .I just want to watch the content I paid for anywhere I want !

    It's not like someone is hovering over my back at the airport attempting to steal my ipad
    watching of Tivo content.

    Its time for the dinosaurs of the media business who want to lock down everything to come to realize that the times are a changin.

    Of course,this may not happen without a legal battle here or there.

    I find it very interesting that TIvo set up streaming to record and then stream the content
    Very smart !You are actually then watching something you are recording .
     
  18. bradleys

    bradleys It'll be fine....

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    Does the DIRECTV GenieGO allow streaming of HBO?
     
  19. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    I don't think that's true. I think DirecTV has special deals with specific channels that allow streaming outside the home and only shows from those channels are allowed. It's sort of like their own internal CCI byte. Except that because they are in direct control of both the partnerships and the hardware they have a bit of an advantage compared to TiVo who is basically an outsider making hardware for someone else's service.
     
  20. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    I think these guys feel that if you don't have access to these shows via streaming from your DVR then you're more likely to watch the ad supported version on their website or buy a copy of the show from iTunes, Amazon, etc... So to them opening this up costs them money. TimeWarner is the biggest believer in this probably because they are also in the content creation business. We may eventually see Comcast take a similar stance now that they own NBC.
     

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