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Thoughts on Xbox One & Tivo

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by Ron DeGumbia, May 21, 2013.

  1. Jul 23, 2013 #21 of 257
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    I still don't really see a purpose, at least not for a TiVo user. Unless it has the ability to completely control the TiVo UI, which I don't think is really possible with IR blasters and no bidirectional communication, then TiVo users would really only ever use it as an HDMI pass through, if that. For a standard cable box user, which is actually watching live TV, I could see some value in it. But for a TiVo user it's pretty useless.
     
  2. Jul 23, 2013 #22 of 257
    wco81

    wco81 Member

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    I was kind of hoping that they'd integrate DVR functions as some rumors indicated.

    But I guess they're hoping that gestures and voice will be the new UI paradigm for TV.
     
  3. Jul 23, 2013 #23 of 257
    dianebrat

    dianebrat I refuse to accept your reality TCF Club

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    As far as I've seen, there's been no comments as to how and even if the XboxOne will deal with a DVR, all we've seen is TV, and we still don't know the source of the signal, was it OTA? a cable STB? an HDHomerun? (wishful thinking). If you go by the numbers, 50% of US homes have a DVR, and so far zero feedback on how the XboxOne will deal.

    If you then assume the DVR and Xbox are on the primary set in the house, the quandry of exactly what TV device the Xbox is controlling and how becomes a big question mark. This would have been easy from 1998 to 2005 when everyone had analog in the cable system.
     
  4. Jul 24, 2013 #24 of 257
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    I think what they plan to do is integrate their own guide and allow it to change the channel on a simple cable or DSS box. There is no way they could properly interact with a DVR without bidirectional communication.
     
  5. Jul 24, 2013 #25 of 257
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    Why would you need bi-directional communication. It should still be able to do basic things like go to the my Shows list, then you tell it to go up or down a certain number of titles then play. No idea though but I figure anything you can use a remote for, it should be able to work with it.

    I have no idea how I woul duse it though. I've not used my receiver to switch my devices in many years since I've been using external video scalers/processors for a long time. I've typically used one input on my receiver. So I have no idea how all this would integrate with the XBOne.

    And now that I think about it, because of 3D I don't even run video through my receiver any more, since my receiver is too old to handle 3D. So I just send HDMI audio to it from my iScan Duo.
     
  6. Jul 24, 2013 #26 of 257
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    I guess if you want to navigate the TiVo using voice or hand gestures then it should be possible. But it would not be possible for them to schedule recordings from their guide or play a recording directly from their UI without some sort of bidirectional communication letting them know that the TiVo is doing what they expected. Using some elaborate macro to move around in the TiVo UI would be prone to errors, which could end up deleting recordings, and would not be effective anyway because the way you navigate to a recording depends on whether you have groups enabled, the sorting option, etc....
     
  7. Jul 24, 2013 #27 of 257
    mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    They have bi-directional communication with TiVo if they want it, via IP control. Without that they can't display what recordings are available or select one to play, though they could set up new recordings.
     
  8. Jul 24, 2013 #28 of 257
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    IP control is only one direction. It's basically the same IR commands sent by a remote just sent via IP. It does not communicate any state information back to the host. So really it's no better then using IR except that it's more reliable.

    Now TiVo has something called the mindrpc interface which is bidirectional and is what other TiVos and the iPad app use to communicate with a TiVo. However it is not publicly documented anywhere. Forum member moyekj has done a good job reverse engineering it and using it in kmttg, but no commercial product is going to use it unless TiVo releases an official SDK.
     
  9. Jul 25, 2013 #29 of 257
    mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    Say what??? The Series3 had a web server with which you could examine the "Now Playing" list; your My TiVo web page will let you peruse your My Shows and To Do lists and there are TiVo-created Android and iOS apps which will display the My Shows list and let you start playing a selected recording or delete it if you want (you can perform all of the functions in those apps that you can in TiVo's on screen UI, including "Watch Now", "Explore", "Season Pass", "Delete" and "Upcoming"). You can also use it to create new recording requests and Season Passes as well as to manage your Season Pass and To Do lists.
     
  10. Jul 25, 2013 #30 of 257
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    The web page is something hosted on the TiVo itself. All you're getting in your browser is HTML the TiVo generated. There is an HTTP protocol that will serve up a list of all the shows in My Shows via XML but the only good that does is allow you to download shows via TiVoToGo.

    The interface used by the iOS and Android apps is the mindrpc interface I mentioned. It is not currently available to the public. One of the members of this forum has done extensive work to reverse engineer it for a program called kmttg, and there may even be a few other apps that use it, but it's not publicly documented or available for licenses, so there is no chance Microsoft will be using it in the XBox One.

    The only other IP interface is an IP control interface will basically allows you to send remote control commands via the network. It has a few commands that are not on a typical TiVo remote, but it's unidirectional. It does not allow the host device to know what state the TiVo itself is in.

    The ONLY way this could be done is via mindrpc. And unless TiVo and MS have some special deal setup to allow them access to it I highly doubt that's going to happen.
     
  11. Nov 14, 2013 #31 of 257
    siratfus

    siratfus New Member

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    If XBOX one took cable cards, and has XBOX MINI (equivalent to tivo mini) I would say goodbye to tivo. LOL!
     
  12. Nov 14, 2013 #32 of 257
    JosephB

    JosephB Member

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    I'm actually excited for the Xbox One. I think everyone has a different idea about what they would like the Xbox One to be, what Microsoft would like it to be, and what it actually is.

    First off, the XB1 doesn't have DVR functionality and doesn't even advertise it. When they talk about DVR on XB1, they are talking about the video game DVR functionality which allows you to record yourself playing a game and then share it online. They're not talking about TV DVR functionality.

    As far as the "one guide" it would be awesome if you could integrate your DVR recordings, but obviously that's not possible, and I don't even think Microsoft wants to go down that route. Given the fact that they sold off their IPTV division (which powers U-Verse and is the reason you can use an Xbox 360 as a U-Verse STB) I don't think linear TV is really on their radar anymore. The whole reason behind the HDMI passthrough is simply so that your Xbox is always on, and you can always be invited to a game. You don't have to choose "am I going to watch TV or am I going to wait for my friends to get online?". Also, it makes it seamless to swap between your TV service and the video services on the Xbox.

    You're going to need to keep your remote around to use your DVR, but the Xbox One Guide will be nice for live TV, and especially nice for having quick access to basically everything you will want to do on the same input of your TV. TiVo for your DVR, podcasts, Amazon, etc, and Xbox for Netflix, ESPN, HBO, and gaming. It's basically the best that we're going to get in a world of cablecards and dish and directv being proprietary services.
     
  13. Nov 14, 2013 #33 of 257
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    Actually it is possible. TiVo has an entire API for controlling the functionality of a TiVo from a remote application. It's what the iPad app uses, it's what kmttg uses, it's probably what the Mini uses. If MS really wanted to integrate the XB1 with TiVo they could do it. They probably wont, but they could. :)
     
  14. Nov 14, 2013 #34 of 257
    siratfus

    siratfus New Member

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    JosephB, I can't conceptualize the set-up yet. For example, is this correct.. Moca goes into cable box or tivo, and from there, you "OUT" it into the Xbox's "IN" input?

    From the demos I see, when they switch to live tv, they are still within the XBOX app. Wouldn't that render the tivo remote useless? Would have to still change inputs completely in order to use TIVO remote, correct?
     
  15. Nov 14, 2013 #35 of 257
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    The XB1 has an HDMI passthough port with overlay ability. So you plug the HDMI cable from the TiVo to the HDMI-In on the XBox and then the HDMI-Out on the XBox to the TV. You can then watch the TiVo through the XBox and it can overlay a guide on the signal or squish it down into a little window, etc...
     
  16. Nov 14, 2013 #36 of 257
    mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    AFAICT they're not going to support control of DVR functions so you'd need your TiVo IR or RF commands for those. It should be interesting seeing how well the two meld.
     
  17. Nov 14, 2013 #37 of 257
    wco81

    wco81 Member

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    MS wanted a gimmick, like the motion control that made the Wii a big hit.

    So they built it around the Kinect and this new version has the ability to track you in the dark, measure your heart rate, etc.

    So how do they get you to keep it on all the time? They have this HDMI In, so that it's the last device in the chain before your TV, like the AV receiver is for many people..

    That means you never switch it off and it's on your primary HDMI input of your TV.

    Why? So that they can track you for ad purposes. They want to see how you respond to ads and they want to sell that data to advertisers.

    So what is the hook for people to leave their consoles on? Voice commands for changing channels is basically it. They can't control more advanced functions, like telling your DVR to set up a series pass or pad a recording by 5 minutes.

    Initially they said you can't turn off the Kinect or the Xbox One won't work. There was a huge uproar and they backed off, saying you can unplug it now and still play games.

    However, there's some uncertainty that it will have an active mic, waiting for commands.

    So it may not be completely off.

    In any event, if you route a TV box through your Xbox One before reaching the TV, will you get Dolby Digital decoding?
     
  18. Nov 14, 2013 #38 of 257
    mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    You can leave the Kinect in the box if you want to eschew its functionality completely because you're uncomfortable with it. You can be pretty much sure that its not on then :D. Even then you can run your TV tuning STB into the Xbox's HDMI in.

    I don't know about DD decoding. It believe that it will take the TV tuner's audio output and blend other things into it, like maybe audible indicators of things like incoming Skype calls and multiplayer games that you're waiting to come together being ready to join.
     
  19. Nov 14, 2013 #39 of 257
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    To blend in any other audio the DD has to be decoded first. Then either sent out as PCM or re-encoded back to DD(or DTS).
     
  20. Nov 15, 2013 #40 of 257
    JosephB

    JosephB Member

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    Right, but to do it "the right way" they would need to partner with TiVo and get permission and assurances that the API won't change and so forth. I have to think TiVo probably wouldn't be open to such an arrangement. For it to be "possible" in the world of Microsoft's thinking, there would need to be a standard way to interact with ALL dvrs and set tops so they didn't have to try to support the dozens of different ones out there. As it stands now, for channel changing and power on/off, all they have to do is specialize the IR codes the box uses. Everything else is the same no matter who your provider is. Given that they sold off Mediaroom (their division that created the software that runs U-Verse) it's obvious that Microsoft thinks this will only be temporary and eventually you'll get all your TV through an app on the Xbox itself, kind of like the TWC app. It's not a stretch to imagine the NEXT Xbox not having HDMI passthrough.

    The way it works is this: Disconnect the HDMI cable from your TiVo or cable/satellite set top from your television and connect it to the HDMI IN on the Xbox One. Then, you connect an HDMI cable from your Xbox One to your TV (or AV receiver, as the case might be). The Xbox One has an IR blaster in the Kinect sensor, so it can send IR commands that way. It also has a port on the back to connect an old TiVo-style or Slingbox-style IR blaster if needed.

    The Xbox "overlays" it's output on top of whatever is coming out of your TiVo. You can change channels with the Xbox ("Xbox Tune ESPN") and it will blast the channel numbers out over IR. It cannot control the DVR functions, so you would still use your TiVo remote to pause/rewind and navigate your recordings or any other TiVo functionality outside of changing channels (and, you could change channels with the remote if you wanted, no reason your remote would stop working).

    This is interesting. I haven't heard one way or another, but it is supposed to work with passing through 3D and 1080p/24, so one would think so.
     

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