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The Tivo Mini lives....

Discussion in 'TiVo Mini' started by dave13077, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. Jan 22, 2013 #661 of 1620
    wkearney99

    wkearney99 Bill Kearney

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    Yeah, well, 'doing the math' would have a lot of very successful products 'fail' in the market. Why bother buying a Mercedes when a Chevy can do the same job? Oh wait, because it's more about the experience than just the math.

    Yes, there's definitely an argument to be made for how Tivo has absolutely squandered their advantage in the market, especially with regard to 3rd party development.

    And before you dismiss the notion of catering to cable companies you have to do the math. It's far less expensive to sell to just a cable company instead of to each and every individual customer.

    So it's not so simple. But Tivo is certainly missing a lot of what many people would consider great opportunities. Like they've done pretty much all along.
     
  2. Jan 22, 2013 #662 of 1620
    atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    Well there are no technical reasons for TiVo not doing lots of things that some of us would like. I personally have a very long list and expect none of them to happen.

    The reality is TiVo (or any company) makes most of their decisions based on financial realities as they see them. None of us are likely to every know with 100% certainty how TiVo decides on the mini's pricing and I find it irrelevant. All that will matter is what it ends up being. What ever the price is it will be acceptable to some and not acceptable to others.

    But again unit we actually see what the mini costs and how it works I think it is foolish to get all excited about what the price might be.
     
  3. Jan 22, 2013 #663 of 1620
    atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    Last time I looked that is pretty much what all companies say.

    Given that no other company produces stand alone DVR appliances (for cable) I would say that everyone but TiVo has decided there isn't enough of a market to even bother with.

    Yes most of us really would like to see TiVo succeed and be able to offer us better more exciting DVR products. If TiVo can compete on price or not really just depends on if the pay TV provider is using their DVR as a loss leader or not. If the pay TV provider is actually making money on their DVR, then TiVo can and does compete on price - just check out TWC's pricing if you want a good example.

    In any event my opinion has been and still is that the price is only a minor part of why TiVo doesn't sell more DVRs. The general public is not interested in dealing with cable cards and/or tuning adapters. Until TiVo can offer a solution that doesn't require renting anything from the pay TV provider or any more work than just plugging in the coax cable then they will not have a product that is acceptable to the general public regardless of price.
     
  4. Jan 22, 2013 #664 of 1620
    crxssi

    crxssi Veteran TiVo User

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    That is EXACTLY the point. To me, it is only worth maybe double what a Roku costs and not much more. If I wanted to spend $400+, I would buy a used TiVo with Lifetime and go that route for my one other TV. But my need is not high enough to justify the expense.

    Or they just go that route with the TiVo Stream and open it to Roku or whatever. It is very IRRITATING to current TiVo owners to see MS-Windows Media center allowing cheap remote boxes. But we pay a premium for what is supposedly the best and most sophisticated DVR on the planet and it can't do that. And it lags behind a $75 device when it comes to all other functions- Netflix, Amazon, YouTube, HBO Go, Hulu, Crackle, etc.

    At CES a week ago Roku said this:

    "First, we announced that we have now surpassed 700 channels on the Roku platform in our quest to bring customers the best range and quality in streaming entertainment. In fact, we ended 2012 having streamed one billion hours! We’ve just announced a partnership with Time Warner Cable, which will bring TWC TV™ (featuring up to 300 live television channels) to Roku streaming devices in the U.S. We’ve also inked deals with more than a dozen new partners including Blockbuster On Demand, FOX NOW, PBS, PBS KIDS, iHeartRadio and Big Fish Unlimited to name a few. These new video, music and casual games channels are launching in the Roku Channel Store this quarter."

    Meanwhile, we still can't even use DLNA. We can't stream our content to desktops or laptops. We can't use the Stream with Android. We can't fully control the TiVo with a desktop. We have almost no UI customization options (can't even turn off the Discovery Bar, get rid of the stupid "HD Programs" folder, create custom folders, adjust the font sizes, or change the background).

    There is a lot of pent-up frustration, especially from long-term TiVo users.... I am one of them.
     
  5. Jan 22, 2013 #665 of 1620
    RichB

    RichB Member

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    Mercedes makes money, see the difference.

    The mini presents an opportunity to privede a centralized DVR with satellites. IMO TiVo should make 6 tuner cable only DVR and sell it as a package with mini's. One for renters and one buyers.

    Say you have 5 TV's and a typical cable system.
    At $8 per hd box and $15 for the DVR, your monthly bill is $47.

    A cable card is $4. TiVo can represent a savings a $43 per month and $516 per year. So with a 3 year payback, this bundle with lifetime has to cost about $1550.

    I was actually talking about math ;)

    - Rich
     
  6. Jan 22, 2013 #666 of 1620
    RichB

    RichB Member

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    I am right there with you.
    TiVo wants control of the customer, but the marketplace will destroy them is they insist on ignoring it.

    With DLNA, you have streaming to the TV without a box.
    Very handy in the Kitchen.

    Imagine is TiVo could stream to a Roku....
    With a little joint marketing, they could sell a lot of 4 tuner or even 6 tuner "media server".

    What TiVo end user wouldn't want that.
    Oh, yeah the cable companies...

    Someone will build this and then TiVo will be relegated to the MSO's who in turn are getting squeezed by IP TV.

    - Rich
     
  7. Jan 22, 2013 #667 of 1620
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    Roku can't do MPEG-2, so the only way a TiVo could stream to a Roku is if you had a TiVo Stream. ($129) And while the Stream is great for watching a few shows on an iPad the navigation is slow and nothing like the experience you get when streaming between two TiVos. While doing a Roku app is possible I'm not sure the experience would be equivalent to what you'll get with a Mini.

    Now an app for an MPEG-2 enabled device like an XBox or PS3 is a different story. However maintaing apps for multiple devices like that costs a lot of money and I'm not sure there is enough profit motivation for TiVo to do it. At least with the Roku app you have to buy a Stream. If they had an XBox or PS3 app it would be all work for no money. The Mini is a better proposition for them in that area because then they control the hardware and the costs to use it.

    Dan
     
  8. Jan 22, 2013 #668 of 1620
    atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    One thing they could do is to upgrade the Premium version of TiVo Desktop to function just like a mini - even if they charged more for it I am sure there are more than a few people that would be interested in using their HTPC as an extender.
     
  9. Jan 22, 2013 #669 of 1620
    mr_smits

    mr_smits New Member

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    The frustration is that Tivo represents one of the only real alternatives to cable company and satellite DVRs. There is no real, easy alternatives for the average consumer. We want Tivo to succeed and we want our personal needs met, but the reality is that consumers can take it or leave it: there are no alternatives.
     
  10. Jan 22, 2013 #670 of 1620
    RichB

    RichB Member

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    Obviously, H.264 has been imporatant for a while.
    The IPad was a big deal when the Premiere was designed.
    Water under the bridge.

    Moving forward, will TiVo learn to spell DLNA or H.264?
    Only, if they decide to try to lead again.

    - Rich
     
  11. Jan 22, 2013 #671 of 1620
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    There are some security problems with that. They have some strict requirements when it comes to streaming and PCs are hot beds for cracking. I'm not sure they want to risk having their protocol exposed and open themselves up to a potential issue with Cable Labs.

    Dan
     
  12. Jan 22, 2013 #672 of 1620
    rainwater

    rainwater Active Member

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    I'm pretty sure TiVo Desktop is a dead product at this point. At some point, I think they will do PC based streaming from the TiVo Stream but I wouldn't be surprised if it was done as a separate product as TiVo Desktop.
     
  13. Jan 22, 2013 #673 of 1620
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    I betting the only streaming we get on a PC is via a Windows 8 app someday.

    Dan
     
  14. Jan 22, 2013 #674 of 1620
    innocentfreak

    innocentfreak Active Member

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  15. Jan 22, 2013 #675 of 1620
    slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    All good points, but if a small company like Silicondust can deliver a DTCP-IP enabled DLNA server in their cable tuner products, there's no reason why Tivo can't do the same. Today. On the Premieres. For all content, protected or not.

    And then we don't even need Minis if all you want is live or recorded TV with simple streaming/playback (and are on a cableCo with a lot of unprotected channels like Comcast), because a lot of devices can do this today. I just added a DLNA client and video player to my wife's 2nd-gen Kindle Fire, frex, and it works well for live SD channel streaming from the Prime tuner - no extra hardware needed, not even a PC.

    Even if you are stuck on TWC or some other company that protects a lot of stuff, the PS3 can do DTCP-IP right now and more clients will be coming (I've heard a lot of the 2012 model HDTVs can do it).
     
  16. Jan 22, 2013 #676 of 1620
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    I have no problem with a monthly fee. It just depends on the price. At $5 a month I might go monthly. but it also depends on the lifetime price. At $8 I would not go monthly since I'm only paying $6.95 a month for my two tuner Premiere. And I see no point in paying a higher monthly price for Mini than I am paying for a two tuner Premiere. But you never know. If lifetime is outrageously priced then I won't have a choice but to go monthly.
     
  17. Jan 22, 2013 #677 of 1620
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    Like I said right now they are more focused on cable partners and their needs, then the retail market. As cool as DLNA is cable companies want something they can rent and make money off. We may see DLNA streaming from TiVo someday, but I doubt it's a priority.

    Dan
     
  18. Jan 22, 2013 #678 of 1620
    DaveDFW

    DaveDFW Member

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    Slightly off-topic, but I just saw a banner ad from Tivo pushing a "whole-home" solution. Tivo's definition of "whole-home" is a solution which consists of a Premiere plus three iPads.
     

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  19. Jan 22, 2013 #679 of 1620
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    :D The video in the 3rd panel isn't lined up with the iPad screen. It's floating in the air.

    Dan
     
  20. Jan 22, 2013 #680 of 1620
    DaveDFW

    DaveDFW Member

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    I didn't even notice that the first time. The levitating screen image has a cutout for a thumb--so close yet so far! :)
     

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