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Strange 1x fast forward issue since 9.4 update

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by vittoria, Aug 2, 2008.

  1. Dec 1, 2009 #101 of 150
    aldiesel

    aldiesel New Member

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    Apr 12, 2004
    I recorded Merry Madagascar OTA and 1XFF would not work correctly. My in-laws had it recorded on a DVR Pal and their 1xFF works correctly. I think the problem lies partially with Tivo.
     
  2. Dec 1, 2009 #102 of 150
    Puppy76

    Puppy76 Active Member

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    Oct 6, 2004
    Thanks for those links, his explanations are reaaaaaally excellent and interesting.
     
  3. dvrchangedme

    dvrchangedme New Member

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    Dec 22, 2009
    I recently and finally upgraded from an old Series 2 to a new Series 3 2-tuner HD box. I had never had any problem before. I have to believe it is related to the software upgrade that came automatically installed on my new box. The software version is now far newer that the last update that ever downloaded to my old Series 2.

    As a big sports fan, and one who mostly upgraded so that they could watch a game while not missing any programs on another channel, this is highly frustrating.

    Has anyone thought that this has something to do with the Comcast/TiVo merger, and the current (as I understand it) lack of this feature if you have a Comcast box?

    Sigh. I've had TiVo since 2004, but feel my frustration and loyalty fading as problems mount. Someone at corporate didn't read the Marketing 101 book about the best customer being the one you already have.
     
  4. bkdtv

    bkdtv New Member

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    Jan 9, 2003
    DC Metro Area
    The same problem is seen on new TivoHDs which ship with the 9.2 software.

    As indicated above, the problems with FF 1x speed have nothing to do with the newer software. They are caused by the combination of (a) how TiVo implements fast forward and (b) how the broadcaster or cable company compresses their signals. To save bandwidth, many cable companies eliminate the information from the picture signal that TiVo uses for smooth 1x playback.

    The Series2 recompressed all signals on the fly with all the information necessary to provide smooth 1x playback with TiVo's FF/REW implementation. The TivoHD and TiVo Series3 do not recompress digital signals; they save and playback digital signals as is, just as the broadcaster and cable companies provide them. If the broadcaster/provider passes the information used by TiVo for smooth 1x playback, then you'll have it; if they don't pass it, then you won't. Smooth 1x playback is available on most cable channels with providers that use less compression, such as Verizon FiOS.

    I think most agree that TiVo needs to change its implementation of FF 1x so that it works with every channel and provider, even if it is less smooth. The smooth 1x playback we've had in the past may no longer be possible with the way many broadcasters and cable companies compress their signal to save bandwidth, but TiVo should be able to an alternative that works for everyone.

    The only relation between the 1x playback issue and the v9.4 update is cable co recompression. Comcast, Cox, and Cablevision began recompressing many of their cable channels shortly before the 9.4 update was released.
     
  5. schwinn

    schwinn New Member

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    Sep 18, 2004
    Funny, I noticed this on HD signals on my new TivoHD as well (I have 2 S1 Tivos that do a "normal" 1x FF/RW). I should note that my TivoHD is running 11.0d software, and still does this.

    bkdtv - interesting explanation... that the 1x can't do a smooth-forward since the data doesn't include that info.

    I will say that SD/analog content 1x FF/RW as expected...

    Oh well, so much for 1x FF/RW on HD content... 2x or higher only... sad to see that the TivoHD is losing so much functionality in my eyes... little by little... versus my old S1s.
     
  6. bkdtv

    bkdtv New Member

    7,902
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    Jan 9, 2003
    DC Metro Area
    The TivoHD can't do 1x FF on channels that don't include the necessary info. That is not the case on all channels. With my provider (FiOS), the local NBC HD affiliate is the only channel I watch regularly that exhibits this issue.

    If you've read the owner's thread, you know that the TivoHD also adds a substantial amount of functionality not available on the Series1.
     
  7. schwinn

    schwinn New Member

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    Sep 18, 2004
    Sorry, bkdtv... I didn't mean to imply your explanation was incomplete... I'm just surprised that this feature is taken out from the signal... or simply not included. Either way, very interesting info. While I have you, can you tell me what is missing? Is it some header info? I/B/P-frames? etc? Just curious...

    As for the TivoHD, I know that it adds capability for Netflix, searching improvements, and HD, of course, but it's sad to see that QAM mapping is not there, analog has issues (I'm experiencing encoding problems, which may be specific to my defective unit), but also including gray-screen dropouts for analog, etc. This compared to my S1 which has been running flawlessly for many years... and S2s have most of the search/Netflix capability as well... so in that respect, the S3/HD are kinda annoying.

    I'm not saying the THD is a bad unit... just saying that it seems flaky, particularly for something that is not a first-gen device...
     
  8. Jan 4, 2010 #108 of 150
    jhstn58

    jhstn58 New Member

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    Aug 18, 2001
    Nashville,...
    This discussion leads me to the conclusion that this problem should be tuner independent, but I have the FF problem on one tuner but not the other. I tested it yesterday several times with the Steelers game on one tuner - the FF speed was 1:1 - and the Eagles game on the other - FF worked normally. This particular Tivo uses two Comcast cable cards. I initially had thought that perhaps it was a defect in the card, but that didn't make sense of course, since the FF is being controlled from the Tivo. So why would it affect only one tuner?
     
  9. Jan 4, 2010 #109 of 150
    CrispyCritter

    CrispyCritter Purple Ribbon Wearer

    3,647
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    Feb 28, 2001
    North...
    It's not affecting only one tuner, it's happening on only the one channel (that you saw). This is a signal problem, not a hardware problem. Either the original recording or your local cable provider is incorrectly compressing that channel's signal and getting rid of key frames that the TiVo uses to FF correctly. Until TiVo (the company) can implement a work-around for the over-compression, there's not a whole lot you can do.

    You may be able to substantiate this. Channels that FF does not work correctly on will often take significantly less disk space for a half-hour show than a corresponding channel (of the same type, eg 720p) that FF does work correctly on. That happens when the cable company compresses one channel (in order to provide other channels at the same frequency) but not the other.
     
  10. Jan 4, 2010 #110 of 150
    NJP11

    NJP11 New Member

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    Sep 9, 2007
    Rhode Island
    That is probably due to one broadcast being in 720p (Fox) and the other being 1080i (CBS). My experience has found that FF works correctly on the 720p broadcasts and most of the time the trouble is with a 1080i broadcast. Unfortunately my AFC East champ Pats are mostly broadcast in 1080i because they are in the AFC and CBS has the rights to their games.
     
  11. Jan 4, 2010 #111 of 150
    Puppy76

    Puppy76 Active Member

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    Oct 6, 2004
    Out of curiosity, what are you using that the Tivo's needing analog? I'm actually not sure if I ever used ming on analog or not.

    My favorite new feature is the better integrated Tivo.com support to see stuff that's going to be recorded, etc. Haven't had any issues with mine so far.
     
  12. Jan 5, 2010 #112 of 150
    schwinn

    schwinn New Member

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    Sep 18, 2004
    I was using analog cable until my cable-cards showed up. Even now, I have to use some analog channels, since not all channels in my area are available digitally (Comedy Central, SpikeTV, and a few others). These show up on channels <100, and I confirm they are analog since my non-cable-box TVs can receive them as well.

    The new Tivo.com stuff is neat, but after being used to the superb capability of TivoWebPlus on my S1 Tivos, the Tivo.com setup is seriously lacking. Aside from being able to setup a new recording, I don't see the real benefit of that interface. Don't get me wrong, it's a great added feature... but it could be so much better.
     
  13. medellin618

    medellin618 New Member

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    Jul 16, 2008
    Menomonee...
    Not sure it's cable-only problem. I have an antenna & notice similar problems with the 1x FF speed.

    Only notice the problems with NFL games, not prime-time programming; and only on CBS & NBC, FOX games work fine.

    Noticed problem last year in the playoffs, CBS games only; this year NBC games have also had same problem.

    Used to watch games at 1x FF; was great. Now "not so much"
     
  14. Phantom Gremlin

    Phantom Gremlin New Member

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    Jun 20, 2002
    Tualatin,...
    I noticed this same problem for the playoffs last weekend. It's definitely annoying, 1x FF is useless. Fortunately the 30 second skip does work pretty well, except when teams go into a "hurry up" offense.
     
  15. smukkers22

    smukkers22 New Member

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    Apr 20, 2007
    I have issues with Cablevision NY NBCHD 704, Versus HD 719, TNTHD 737, TBSHD 739. Usually comes into play watching sports, although I have had the issue with some reg shows (Chuck, Men of a Certain Age, etc). I did call Tivo a month ago and they acted like they had no idea what I was talking about. They told me to call Cablevision as it was most likely a bad Mstream card. :confused: I did not call as I have researched it and it seems like it is an issue with how certain channels are compressing the data. I do not want to pay to have them come out to replace a card that is perfectly fine.
     
  16. schwinn

    schwinn New Member

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    Sep 18, 2004
    Try starting a new thread on this issue, so that you get more visibility... your statements seem to have nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

    When/if you do that, post more information about what you're seeing... so that people can help you. There is no information about the problem in your post above.
     
  17. NJP11

    NJP11 New Member

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    Sep 9, 2007
    Rhode Island
    I would sign a petition if one was started.
     
  18. aine

    aine New Member

    60
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    Dec 23, 2003
    I have a TiVo HD but I record regular analog cable channels using my CableCARD. I just started noticing this problem during the Olympics. Single-click fast forward is the same speed as normal (1sec=1sec). This is on regular NBC (Time Warner San Diego Channel 7).

    I quickly read thru the thread, but I don't see any solutions or workarounds or evidence that TiVo knows about this problem. 1x FF was one of the best features of TiVo because you could watch the action in Sports much faster, without any distortion like in 2x and 3x FF.
     
  19. schwinn

    schwinn New Member

    291
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    Sep 18, 2004
    Are you sure you're viewing an analog channel, and not a digital feed? My guess is that it's a digital SD feed that you're seeing. You can check by tuning into the channel, then going to the DVR Diagnostics page and seeing whether it's an analog feed, or digital... if it's digital, it can still suffer from the same problem (ie, something is missing from the video data stream, that prevents Tivo from being able to 1x FF).

    Check to make sure it's an analog channel... if you're using cablecards, you may be seeing a digital 480i stream after all.
     
  20. Phantom Gremlin

    Phantom Gremlin New Member

    1,555
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    Jun 20, 2002
    Tualatin,...
    My Comcast system does digital for CableCARDs. Just in case someone isn't familiar with analog-digital simulcasting (ADS), here is a snippet from Wikipedia describing it:
    On cable television systems, analog-digital simulcasting (ADS) means that analog channels are duplicated as digital subchannels. Digital tuners are programmed to use the digital subchannel instead of the analog. This allows for smaller, cheaper cable boxes by eliminating the analog tuner and some analog circuitry. On DVRs, it eliminates the need for an MPEG encoder to convert the analog signal to digital for recording. The primary advantage is the elimination of interference, and as analog channels are dropped, the ability to put 10 or more SDTV (or two HDTV, or various other combinations) channels in its place. The primary drawback is the common problem of over-compression (quantity over quality) resulting in fuzzy pictures and pixelation.

    BTW, this also allows Comcast to advertise "all digital" for their lineup.
     

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