1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Star Trek: TNG getting HD conversion even though it's impossible

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by Johncv, Sep 16, 2011.

  1. JYoung

    JYoung Series 3

    28,701
    67
    Jan 16, 2002
    Los Angeles
    I dunno.

    Take a look at the original effect shot:

    [​IMG]

    Now, the new shot:

    [​IMG]


    As you can see, the Bird of Prey has been clearly replaced. No doubt with a CGI model.

    The angle of the Enterprise is also different and I don't remember the 6 foot model being filmed from that exact angle.
     
  2. doom1701

    doom1701 Time for a new Title

    25,296
    4
    May 15, 2001
    Grand...
    Interesting. Those are different shots, and the Enterprise shot has different windows lit. I'd just be surprised if they put that kind of detail into a CGI model--if you look close at some of the windows, there's little artifacts that I assume are internal lighting hardware.
     
  3. Bryanmc

    Bryanmc I'm normal.

    40,399
    7
    Sep 5, 2000
    Richardson,...
    Now that I've completed my STTNG viewing, I realized how little the Enterprise actually does in space. There's probably a total of 10-12 different shots used throughout the entire series (with some notable exceptions like exploding the ship or the future 1701-D).

    So I wonder how much trouble it really would be, once they've got a good CG Enterprise made, to replace the shots with CG.
     
  4. nataylor

    nataylor Curiously Strong TCF Club

    28,552
    123
    Apr 26, 2000
    Houston, TX
    Not hard at all. They did it for the original Star Trek series.
     
  5. dtivouser

    dtivouser Tivoless TCF Club

    1,813
    1
    Feb 10, 2004
    SoCal
    Yeah even the HD version looks like a cruise ship to me... that bird of prey looks great though!
     
  6. LoadStar

    LoadStar LOAD"*",8,1

    34,917
    158
    Jul 24, 2001
    Milwaukee, WI
    If that is indeed the same shot, those are two completely different Enterprises. Just compare which lights in the rooms are on/off... totally different pattern between the two.
     
  7. Bryanmc

    Bryanmc I'm normal.

    40,399
    7
    Sep 5, 2000
    Richardson,...
    Of course in the original series I think they only had 3 different Enterprise space shots to recreate. :D
     
  8. vertigo235

    vertigo235 Active Member TCF Club

    15,556
    21
    Oct 27, 2000
    Charlotte
    Those are totally different FX shots, maybe they did recreate it in CGI.
     
  9. vertigo235

    vertigo235 Active Member TCF Club

    15,556
    21
    Oct 27, 2000
    Charlotte
    I vote for new CGI, they even got the shadowing consistent with the enterprise and the bird of prey, there is no evident shadowing on the old shot.
     
  10. doom1701

    doom1701 Time for a new Title

    25,296
    4
    May 15, 2001
    Grand...
    I'm not sure about the angle being different, though. The angle looks identical to me--the newer shot is just pulled further back.
     
  11. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

    38,390
    156
    Oct 17, 2000
    Minneapolis
    Yeah, if both ships are moving those two shots could be just a few frames apart...
     
  12. LoadStar

    LoadStar LOAD"*",8,1

    34,917
    158
    Jul 24, 2001
    Milwaukee, WI
    When they said recompositing, I immediately thought they had stored film stock of the FX passes on the models... but I'm actually now thinking that it is indeed CGI.

    (Wow. Who would've thought that we'd be in a world where they could generate CGI so good that you cannot tell whether it is real or from a computer?)

    Edit: Hmm. Went back and looked at the "full size" image... I'm back to thinking it might actually be filmed FX footage, not CGI. If it is, I'm almost 100% positive that it isn't the same footage used in the episode. The Klingon ship is in a totally different angle, and as noted the lights that are on in the windows are in a different pattern from the original. IMO, there is way more detail seen on the "new" Enterprise than in the original, even more than could be attributed to simply the difference between SD and HD.

    Wonder if they're mixing and matching, using FX film footage that happens to be somewhat close to the original?
     
  13. doom1701

    doom1701 Time for a new Title

    25,296
    4
    May 15, 2001
    Grand...
    I would just find it surprising that they could have been redoing FX with CGI all this time without leaks. During the TOS upgrades, there were updated still frames of FX shots released almost weekly.

    I don't doubt that they may have augmented some shots with some CGI, but I'm willing to bet that's the exception, and not the rule.
     
  14. LoadStar

    LoadStar LOAD"*",8,1

    34,917
    158
    Jul 24, 2001
    Milwaukee, WI
    Going back to the episode, the shot is virtually motionless. It's the establishing shot at the very beginning of the episode "Sins of the Father," during which the Captain's Log is read. The only movement in the shot is stars moving by in the background. Both ships are completely static in the shot.
     
  15. JYoung

    JYoung Series 3

    28,701
    67
    Jan 16, 2002
    Los Angeles
    They built a pretty good CGI HD resolution Enterprise D for the Star Trek: Enterprise finale (although I haven't seen it in HD).

    And CGI seems to get better every year.

    There's a bit of additional roll on the Enterprise in the new shot.

    I suspect that this is the case as well.
    For some reason, (maybe some film elements were damaged or unavailable or simply not up to snuff) they substituted this shot though.

    There's actually a small amount of lateral movement on the Bird of Prey.

    Reading over at trekmovie.com, I was amused by this quote by Marina Sirtis about the episode selection for the sampler.

     
  16. Fish Man

    Fish Man Phish Food

    8,260
    0
    Mar 4, 2002
    0.7 miles...
    Totally agree with this.

    I think it came from camera negatives of model work, but not the same ones used in the original scene of that episode.

    As we have been discussing, in the original production of ST:TNG, they had a selection of stock shots of the Enterprise D (against a blue background), various alien ships (against a blue background), star fields, planets (against a blue background), etc. For any given shot, they selected the elements needed to create the shot and composited them together. When originally producing the series (on video, in SD), they used their "library" of components over and over, mixing and matching them in different ways for the different shots.

    It makes sense to me that the people working on the new HD remastering have a library of camera negatives of the various above-mentioned elements. Since the same components of the space shots were used over and over and over again, those camera negatives aren't "tagged" to any particular episode. If anything, they're cateloged as "Enterprise front shots", "Enterprise rear shots", "Klingon bird of prey shots", Romulan ship shots", etc, etc. So, to re-create any particular shot, they go to the camera negative library of "space shots" and pick out components to re-create the final shot. They may not even be able to find the exact combination used in any given instance.

    We already know that some non-effects shots are lost (camera negatives could not be located), and have to be upconverted from the video. Since there's little doubt that the components of the "space shots" were a hodge-podge library, it's likely some of them are lost too.
     
  17. mrdbdigital

    mrdbdigital The TBS Archives TCF Club

    3,159
    3
    Feb 2, 2004
    Moultrie, GA
    I agree with you. It's really amazing to go back years later and be able to find every little snippet of a former production. Things do have a habit of walking away in this business. :)
     
  18. Fish Man

    Fish Man Phish Food

    8,260
    0
    Mar 4, 2002
    0.7 miles...
    Well, after studying that shot of the Enterprise face to face with the Klingon ship even more, I've flopped back the other way.

    I think it's an all new, entirely CGI shot, made for the remastered edition.

    Here's why:

    In the new shot, the apparent light source illuminating the two ships is absolutely consistent. It is perfect.

    In the "new" shot, the main light source illuminating both ships appears to be to the right of the frame and somewhat forward of our perspective. The shadows on the two ships are absolutely consistent with respect to them being illuminated by a common light source. (A distant one, like the distance from the Sun to the earth, so that the rays are effectively parallel.)

    In the original, the Enterprise appears to be lit by a light source in the same position as in the new shot (to the right of the frame and "forward" of our perspective), but the Klingon ship appears to be lit by a light source behind the camera (or, put another way, behind our perspective). Light seems to be hitting the Klingon ship directly from its front.

    This inconsistent light source direction was a common problem throughout ST:TNG. Because, like I mentioned in my previous post, they had a library of stock shots of ships they would composite together. Often (more often than not) the light sources used to film the shots was not the same. They might have endeavored to get the light sources consistent for an original shot, but then they'd mix and match elements of previously done FX shots to make new shots, and voila, inconsistent lighting (like what we see in the "original" shot of the two ships).

    So, IF they went to their library of camera negatives and re-composited a new shot of the Enterprise facing off against a Klingon ship, they did an incredible job of finding two shots with consistent light source directions.

    Or, they could have done the easier thing: Make a CGI shot and get it exactly right. CGI excels at light sources. The light position(s) and intensity is simply a parameter in the rendering.
     
  19. vertigo235

    vertigo235 Active Member TCF Club

    15,556
    21
    Oct 27, 2000
    Charlotte
    That's essentially what I was trying to say in post 169, but I only tried to say it in one sentence.
     
  20. DougF

    DougF Active Member

    14,257
    19
    Mar 18, 2003
    North Dakota
    I've read a couple of different articles this week that said there was some CGI touching up being done but for the most part the effects are from the original film elements
     

Share This Page