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Setting up a MoCA Network for Tivo

Discussion in 'TiVo Mini' started by BigJimOutlaw, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. May 9, 2014 #261 of 1812
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    Yes. While I was trying out some Moca devices, just to see how MoCA worked, the Cisco TAs were completely rendered flaky by the MoCA.

    It's not a matter of the Cisco TAs just not being able to pass the MoCA through the internal amp and whatnot, they just can't handle MoCA signals. They should have been designed with a built-in MoCA filter, but either were not, or it's just not working.

    I thought you were "in the know on this"... :confused:

    Cox doesn't include MoCA filters with the self-install kits, as a "just in case", or by "assuming MoCA is present in the coax". They know about this situation, and went from withholding PoE filters, to giving them out just to make sure this doesn't happen.

    When you compare the TiVo instructions and diagrams to the Cox provided ones, TiVo would have you "pass-through", while Cox wants that split and PoE filter.

    Since I didn't stay with MoCA, I just placed one filter at the actual Point-of-Entry, to cover the whole house from outside ingress, and put the rest in my "box-of-cable stuff" box.

    People do need to be aware that a neighbor with MoCA and no PoE filter can punch their signal into other houses (egress & ingress), whether they use MoCA, or not. If a PoE filter is not at the PoE, a non-MoCA house can get poltergeists in their Tuning Adapters. Using Cox's split w/PoE at each TA would at least cover the Tuning Adapters. Obviously, a single PoE in a non-MoCA home is the better approach, while the split w/PoE is pretty much a necessity if MoCA is in use.

    No idea on the Motorola TAs. I've never had one, or known anybody who did. It seems they are less prone to this, based on the things I don't see being reported with them in MoCA situations.

    Many devices can be subject to MoCA-induced malfunctions. Cable modems, TV tuners, and more. Most new devices that have coax-in, now have built-in MoCA filters, like newer cable modems (that are not MoCA bridges), or any device that isn't design to be part of a MoCA network.

    Unfortunately, some that have them built-in, don't do the job, or fail.

    If it's not cost prohibitive, some might be best-off to place filters strategically, to only allow MoCA to get where it needs to go, and nowhere else.
     
  2. May 10, 2014 #262 of 1812
    CoxInPHX

    CoxInPHX COX Communications

    2,350
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    Jan 14, 2011
    Phoenix, AZ
    I had never used MoCA before so, I had no personal experience, and I have never seen a posting of someone saying they needed it. I have a friend who just ordered a Pro and was asking questions about the MoCA set-up.

    Yes, I was aware Cox recommended it's use, and here in Phoenix, Cox gives you a kit with 2 Coax cables, a 2-way splitter, and a POE filter along with the printed instructions. They should really give out 2 POE filters in the kit though, if they expect customers to place one on the tap also.
     
  3. May 10, 2014 #263 of 1812
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    That's exactly what I thought, as well. I guess they'd rather let the customers egress MoCA signals, than think to give out 1 extra filter, or ask if you have one/need one for the actual Point-of-Entry.

    Those used to be the only thing on Cox trucks I couldn't get a tech to give me one of. They were "reserved for Cox whole home DVR customers only".

    I gave up trying to figure out what they are thinking, and just settled on "most of the time, they aren't thinking". :D

    I didn't mean to come across as offensive, if you felt I did. You usually are the SOAK on most things Cox.
     
  4. May 14, 2014 #264 of 1812
    klugger

    klugger New Member

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    May 14, 2014
    Hey all, so I am trying to set up a TiVo mini in my house and it seems like I have a unique setup so I came here for some advice. We have a single TiVo Roamio and a single TiVo mini that we are trying to make work. First off, we are using an over the air tv antenna for our "signal" in so we don't have cable TV of any sorts. Also, we have DSL internet so we don't have a cable modem. Our house is wired for coaxal in basically every room but not for ethernet. Our Roamio sits in the living room and it DOES have a wired ethernet connection as I was able to get a wire to it and connect it to our router which sits in another room (strung a wire through the basement ceiling). The challenge is now to get the Mini (which sits up in our bedroom on the 2nd floor) connected to the "network". As I said, we can't get an ethernet cord up there very easily, it would involve a very long cord and multiple holes in walls etc...would like to avoid this if possible. Anyways, I know that I can make a MoCa work in the house and I have bought a MoCa adapter but I'm not real sure where to put it in the mess of wires. All of the coaxal cables in the house come together in the basement which is also where my antenna-in cable from outside is. Also, we have a pre-amp hooked up for the antenna...not sure if this affects the MoCa or not. Any thoughts on how to make this all work? Thanks!
     
  5. May 14, 2014 #265 of 1812
    jmpage2

    jmpage2 New Member

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    Jan 20, 2004
    So you have a Roamio Basic?

    If you have a Roamio Basic (no built in MoCA bridge) then you would need to put the MoCA adapter at the location of the router. Connect it to the router with ethernet and then connect it to the coaxial home wiring.

    That's it. The Mini should then be able to connect over coax to the MoCA bridge, which then connects the Mini to the Roamio via Ethernet as well as to the internet via the router.

    The only thing I don't know of is whether or not MoCA signals play nice with an external antenna that you describe using... you also need to know if the coax splitters in your home can handle at least 1000 mhz as that is the minimum frequency that needs to be passed in order for MoCa to work properly.
     
  6. May 14, 2014 #266 of 1812
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

    19,183
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    Jan 31, 2002
    Northern...
    The lowest MoCA channel the Mini (and Roamio Pro/Plus) uses is channel 15. Which I read is 1150Mhz. It worked fine with my eight way, 1Ghz splitter that FiOS had provided me in 2007. But I still installed a 1.2Ghz splitter I got from Amazon. But that just increased the max PHY rate from around 270Mb/s to around 290Mb/s in my setup on channel 15. I didn't see a performance difference.
     
  7. May 15, 2014 #267 of 1812
    filovirus

    filovirus New Member

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    Aug 22, 2013
    Colorado
    I guess I always thought Moca ran on a separate coaxial cable. I always had ethernet on my main and basement TV's so I never bothered to look into it. My bedroom is the last room that I haven't gotten around to running Cat6 to. I have mini I am using with 24 inch TV that is portable, but mostly with ethernet. I was surprised to learn all I had to do was turn moca on using the pro or plus connected to ethernet and then make sure the room was wired on the splitter. Works really well and get 270 +Mbps over crappy RG59, plenty for my Tivo Mini!

    The only thing that is a bummer is having to go into settings when I move the TV to an ethernet room. I may add an actiontec moca adapter to make things a bit more flexible in that room. Sure beats fishing Cat 6 around in the attic and down a wall.

    Go moca.
     
  8. May 15, 2014 #268 of 1812
    filovirus

    filovirus New Member

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    Aug 22, 2013
    Colorado
    Which POE filter should I use for MOCA? I see some filter to 860 Mhz and others up to 1 Ghz. Prefer something from ebay that ships free and gets the job done.
     
  9. May 16, 2014 #269 of 1812
    lessd

    lessd Active Member

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    Jan 23, 2005
    CT
    I purchased two inexpensive POE from E-Bay and tested them by putting each between my MoCA cable and a Roamio pro, the MoCA signal went away on the Roamio, as expected, so I put one on the cable coming into my home and one on the leg feeding the modem, all are working great. (you may not need the one on the Modem leg but better to be safe than sorry, and I tested the modem before and after, no change with a download speed that is faster than 100Mb/sec)
     
  10. May 16, 2014 #270 of 1812
    BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Active Member

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    Mar 21, 2004
    Either will be fine but I'd get 1GHz.
     
  11. May 16, 2014 #271 of 1812
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    The ones that block below 1GHz are for MSO (cableco) MoCA, in scenarios when they place the Moca "in-band". Consumer MoCA operates at >1GHz.

    Using a filter that blocks lower than 1GHz can block channels, or cable modem frequencies.

    Cox, in my market, uses the full 1GHz spectrum, and if I were to use a filter below 1Ghz, I'd block some of my cable modem downstreams, and lose all my H.264 channels, that are in the >960MHz spectrum.

    If your MSO doesn't have a 1GHz network, none of this would likely affect you, unless the high-end of what the filter blocks is shifted lower, due to the low-end frequency being lower. If both block to the same high-end, then the only potential issue would be if your MSO upgraded to a 1GHz network, in the future (you'd have to change to filters that start at >1GHz).

    My PoE filters are:
    Antronix GLF-1002B1
    Reject band: 1125-3000MHz
    Pass band: 5-1002MHz

    Some brands, like these (provided by Cox), even splitters, say 1002MHz, when the 2MHz higher "pass-band" is not required, just a marketing gimmick. Cox uses a mix of splitters rated 1GHz (1000MHz), and ones rated 1002MHz, while they ONLY use the filter I gave the specs on. There's no real-world difference. My Cox market uses the consumer/retail OOB MoCA band for their own MoCA devices (OOB = Out Of Band), so their filters work for both their MoCA devices, while also working for consumer/retail MoCA devices.

    I hope this helps. If anybody is confused by any of it, I'd be happy to help clarify anything.

    Added note: MoCA signals operate at such a high-power, compared to all the rest of the frequencies, which is by design, in order to allow it to "punch" right through any splitter (often even ones rated less than 1GHz), and punch through the output port isolation in splitters. This is why PoE filters at the actual PoE (Point of Entry or "demarcation point") are so important, as MoCA can egress from one residence, and ingress into other residences. The filters are the only thing that can stop them from doing this. They also do it in a way that reflects-back the blocked/filtered MoCA frequencies, creating a better MoCA network. Using additional filters to keep the MoCA going only where it is needed to go to, can improve your MoCA network performance and reliability, which also helps prevent devices that weren't designed to deal with MoCA (lacking a built-in filter), from getting adversely affected by it. Older cable modems, even some "modern" Tuning Adapters (like Cisco), and anything else connected to the coax lacking a built-in filter, may not operate correctly if exposed to MoCA frequencies, and the high power they operate at.
     
  12. May 16, 2014 #272 of 1812
    filovirus

    filovirus New Member

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    Aug 22, 2013
    Colorado
    I am on Comcast and I am more confused than ever! My Tivo Plus creates the Moca network from ethernet. Does this mean I am running somewhere above 1Ghz and below what Comcast uses? Is there a rational reason to get one for the cable modem If the internet is ok?
     
  13. May 16, 2014 #273 of 1812
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    I'm a bit confused by some of what you are asking.

    If your cable modem hasn't started misbehaving, I wouldn't worry about it. Some still do add more filters (especially on non-MoCA cable modems), as a preventative measure, but nothing more. Some Tuning Adapters (like Cisco), require a filter on each TA, or they misbehave. Some who have MoCA problems, find that more filters keeping the MoCA more "contained" fixes their issues.

    RF cable networks that use a full 1GHz spectrum are kind of rare, so far.

    I already explained how MoCA can "punch" past splitters rated 1GHZ (and even lower-rated ones) even though it operates above 1GHz.

    Your MoCA for your TiVo operates above 1GHz, using the consumer/retail band.

    If Comcast, in your market, isn't a 1GHz network, (which is very likely the case), a PoE MoCA filter blocking below 1GHz really shouldn't be an issue.

    I'd either need to know the complete specs of your PoE filter(s), or know the manufacturer/part number, to look up the full specs, in order to know that it's blocking and passing the right frequencies. As long as it is blocking through 2GHz (minimum), it should be doing the job you need it to do. Blocking higher (like up to 3GHz), is usually just overkill, which not a bad thing, if some other residence might be somehow egressing (leaking-out) something in such a high band. That's an unlikely scenario.

    I just felt that the "either one should work" sort of advice, is not "one size fits all" advice, and wanted to state that, with a full explanation why.

    Bottom line: If you have a PoE filter in-place at the Point of Entry, and all is working well, you can set aside any worries, or confusion, I added.
     
  14. Jun 7, 2014 #274 of 1812
    TheBatman

    TheBatman New Member

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    Nov 3, 2007
    Hi all - apologies, searched around and couldn't find this discussed anywhere. My question is: does MoCA require the internet to be connected?

    I have cable internet (Comcast) but just OTA antenna TV. In my utility room the cable is hooked to the modem and wireless router. Then, in that room is the antenna drop that then is split into 3 lines feeding 3 rooms.

    What I'd like to do is have the antenna coax system allow Tivo to talk to Tivo Minis.

    E.g., antenna signal goes to my main room coax and plugs into a Roamio (as it does today). Then the other 2 drops have tivo minis on them. Set up a MoCA network so the Roamio can feed the other 2 drops with both live TV and tivo recordings. Cable modem and router would still be completely separate, not connected to the coax system.

    Hope this all makes sense. Any idea if it will work?
     
  15. Jun 7, 2014 #275 of 1812
    BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Active Member

    2,781
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    Mar 21, 2004
    The Minis will need to be able to reach the internet just like the DVR.

    You would connect a moca adapter to somewhere on the OTA line in the utility room (safest way is either on its own leg or on the leg to the Roamio), and run ethernet from the adapter to the router.

    (I'm assuming you'll keep the Roamio on ethernet and not connect it via the moca network as well. If you want to add the Roamio to the moca network too, the instructions are a little more specific.)
     
  16. Jun 7, 2014 #276 of 1812
    Bigg

    Bigg Active Member

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    Oct 30, 2003
    Hartford-...
    Pretty sure you cannot mix MoCA and OTA...

    If somehow you can, you would definitely need a POE filter so that the MoCA doesn't go out of the antenna and create massive interference in whatever band it ends up in...
     
  17. Jun 7, 2014 #277 of 1812
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    It's not often I wish to open another "can of worms", with you. But, this is an interesting subject matter....

    I've seen MoCA adapters that are designed to not even work with cable TV frequencies, at all. As in, it's a point-to-point system, using coax for MoCA ONLY. So, the coax is just the cabling, nothing more, and nothing else is supposed to be passed through it...

    I'm not 100% certain that such things are true "MoCA", as the standard was intended.

    Then, there are legitimate people, buying legitimate devices, that support MoCA, but are not going to be using it on any part of a cableco RF network.

    This is because they "cut the cord", or never had "the cord", and just want free OTA, and to use MoCA, rather than run additional Cat 5e/Cat 6 ethernet cable.

    I guess the $64,000 question is: Can a consumer grade VHF/UHF antenna, designed to receive (only), become a transmitting antenna, if MoCA isn't filtered with a PoE filter?

    Since MoCA is designed to power-through almost anything except a PoE filter, I wouldn't leave anything to chance.

    MoCA should (theoretically) work over any RG-6 coax. Sometimes RG-59 will "suffice". What happens, once it gets to an OTA antenna, is beyond what I know.
     
  18. Jun 8, 2014 #278 of 1812
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    Jan 31, 2002
    Northern...
    Why can't you mix MoCA and OTA. OTA is below 1GHz. The MoCA that the TiVo uses is 1150Mhz and higher. The MoCA frequencies should not interfere any more than they do with cable. Which is also below 1Ghz.

    Maybe one day I can try it out if I ever switch my TiVos back to Ethernet. Then I could switch the Minis to using the coax cables running OTA to connect them to my network.
     
  19. Jun 8, 2014 #279 of 1812
    tarheelblue32

    tarheelblue32 Active Member

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    Jan 12, 2014
    Raleigh, NC
    Yeah I'm not understanding why MoCA wouldn't work just as well concurrently with OTA signals as it does with cable TV signals.
     
  20. Jun 8, 2014 #280 of 1812
    Aero 1

    Aero 1 Member

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    Aug 8, 2007
    I have moca with two fios routers and ota only and it works fine with no filter. There is no interference with any of my three (one lo-VHF, one hi-VHF, one UHF) joined antennas.
     

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