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Series 1 owners to get no March 11 DST support

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by fluke, Feb 12, 2007.

  1. Feb 12, 2007 #1 of 691

    fluke New Member

    Jul 2, 2002
    I have a Tivo Series 1 made my Phillips that came with Tivo version 2.5 and later updated to Tivo version 3.0. I have helped blessed additional drive space on several Tivos and know from looking at the files that Tivo uses the same standard timezone files that every other linux distribution uses. When it dials up for updated guide information, it syncs it's clock using a standard method known as NTP (Network Time Protocol) which transmits the time in GMT (Greenwich Mean Time). With NTP, it is up to the software getting the time to translate the GMT time to the correct local time. That means that NTP by itself will never correct for changes in DST (Daylist Saving Time) as will occur in the US on March 11.

    After talking to Tivo support, I got the following answers about when/if the time zone files will ever be updated:

    "It will correct the time automatically when it gets guide information."

    - Wrong! Tivo update time using NTP which is given in GMT. Changes in local time offsets require changing the zone files on the tivo itself.

    "Just go through guided setup if the Tivo to correct the daylight savings time setting"

    - Wrong! Going through the guided setup will not update the local zone files. It might be possible to use guided setup to set the Tivo incorrectly to a time zone that is one hour ahead but such a work-around requires remembering to go through the guided setup *FOUR* times a year for something that the Tivo should be doing itself.

    "You need to call Phillips for support"

    - Wrong! The user manual that comes with the Series 1 clearly states that Phillips only provided support for the *hardware* and the software support is Tivo's responsiblity. The battery which helps the tivo keep track of time even when it is unplugged is still working and there are no other indications of hardware issues. Updates to the time zone files for supporting the Energy Act of 2005 is a *software* issue.

    "How long have you had that Tivo? We do not support it anymore -- it is not going to happen."

    - Bad answer! There is nothing in the user manual about when support ends. There has been information from Tivo that with the "lifetime" subscription there will be free updates including fixes. It has been explained that "lifetime" is defined to be while the unit is still functioning. It appears that Tivo does not actually support the tivo software during the full lifetime of the unit. Given this premature dropping of support with Tivo products, I can no longer advocate users to choose Tivo over other DVR solutions.
  2. Feb 12, 2007 #2 of 691

    mattack Active Member

    Apr 9, 2001
    You're attempting to state as a fact that there will be no update -- but one of the other threads had a Tivo employee say that they WERE thinking of series 1 users. They weren't promising anything (essentially no company ever does).. but they were obviously aware of the issue.
  3. Feb 13, 2007 #3 of 691

    gastrof Hubcaps r in fashion

    Oct 31, 2003
    Potato and pen.
    I'll add my voice to mattack's.

    TiVo Jerry said he'd be getting back to us about this, and I noted he did mention Series 1 machines, SUBBED and UNSUBBED. Didn't make any promises, but said those are being kept in mind.

    Here's a link to the thread:

    But Jerry's comment was as follows-
    "Our engineering teams have been discussing and working on the new DST schedule since it was announced early last year. I am still working on understanding every single support aspect for the various platforms (S1 {subbed and unsubbed}, S2, S3, DTV {S1, S2}) and countries (Canadian customers with S2 or DTV units, BSkyB & TGC), as well as how this will be delivered and communicated. I will have to wait until I have all of those details fully understood before posting an official statement publicly, but will make sure that I post those details in entirety within this thread. It is my personal goal to have that information available before the end of the month, if not sooner.

    "Please continue discussing and theorizing, as there may always be a scenario I haven't taken into consideration. I'm aiming to have a single posting with all appropriate information, but it may be necessary to also post a new thread so the information will be easy to find in the first post without searching through the whole discussion. "
  4. Feb 13, 2007 #4 of 691
    Phantom Gremlin

    Phantom Gremlin New Member

    Jun 20, 2002
    If I were paying TiVo monthly for service on an S1, I'd be very very P*SSED if the DST transition didn't work smoothly.

    The fact that it's even being "discussed" instead of just being done is astonishing to me.
  5. Feb 13, 2007 #5 of 691

    TiVoStephen formerly TiVoOpsMgr

    Jun 27, 2000
    Alviso, CA, USA
    fluke, I'm sorry, but you're wrong about how the recording engine works. It works completely off GMT. All guide data is provided to us in GMT. As you say, NTP updates the correct GMT time.

    So, even if TiVo Inc. did absolutely nothing for Series1 users, 100% of your Season Pass and one-time recordings would still work perfectly, since the GMT schedule is not affected by local DST at all. Your local offset ONLY applies for display issues (that is, what time is shown in the guide).

    If we did nothing, you'd see the wrong time listed in the guide, but recordings would still work. The correct time GMT is always provided when your unit makes a connection.

    So, the first answer given to you by support is correct. (I'm not happy with any of their other answers, however; please provide me with any agent names who gave you the other answers so we can make sure they're educated on this subject.)

    As Jerry and Pony have already said, we don't plan on doing nothing. Details are forthcoming.

    Many of us TiVo employees are Series1 users. We're not going to leave you high and dry.

    I've been working here eight years. In eight years, while many of our competitors have sold DVRs that have had major DST issues, I've never seen any real problems with TiVo's software. (We did have a bug with repeating manual recordings back in 2000, but it was quickly corrected.)
  6. Feb 13, 2007 #6 of 691

    Krosis The Bearded One TCF Club

    May 9, 2004
    I wish people would write their congressman about all these DST issues. They need to know that their fiddling with the time has consequences. Listening to their speeches it sounds like it's a null effect proposition.
  7. Feb 13, 2007 #7 of 691

    gworkman Member

    Feb 6, 2006
    Phoenix, AZ
    Not an issue here....No DST. :up:
  8. Feb 13, 2007 #8 of 691

    mitkraft New Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Writing them wouldn't do any good. Since they are all pretty much 12'oclock flashers they can't grasp the ramifications (if you don't know what that is check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be3alRoxkOo)
  9. Feb 13, 2007 #9 of 691

    ZeoTiVo I can't explain

    Jan 2, 2004
    I always wanted to sell a little add on LCD thing that would falsh 12:00 on the front of the TiVo - but then I have a warped sense of humor. :D
  10. Feb 13, 2007 #10 of 691

    fluke New Member

    Jul 2, 2002
    Ok. So, just to confirm I understand you correctly... I have gotten sick of Tivo recording the Daily Show with John S. multiple times a day so I have manual recordings set up for it (and other similar situations). Your saying the time is for display issues only and will not have any impact on my non-guide selected manual recording?

    I didn't go into this taking down names. When I hear from phone support that "I have checked with my supervisor and WE DO NOT SUPPORT PHILLIPS SERIES 1 AT ALL" then I take that at face value. The claim that Phillips supports *EVERY* aspect of the Series 1 was stated by more than one phone support person as well. This is not a misunderstanding or an education issue for an individual Tivo support person, this is that Series 1 people do not get support or need to go through hoops for support.

    Even if only non-guide manual recordings are effected, Tivo is still pushing the issue of support of the software to me by claiming that Phillips is responsible for something they clearly are not. I can either change the manual recordings four times a year or try to update the time zone files myself.

    Even if Tivo decides to provide an update for their Tivo v3.x software for DST, the message is still clear that software support is still being provided ad-hoc at Tivo discretion. There is no commitment to Series 1 and Tivo was use artifical restrictions, such as refusing to provide Now Showing folder groupings, to try to help compete with it own abandoned legacy product.

    The message sent out to early adopters of Tivo was that Tivo would continue to improve with "free updates" over the "lifetime" of the product. There where even claims that Series 2 would not stop new features coming to Series 1 but features requiring the Series 2 hardware would but the only things never to be provided on the Series 1. What **hardware** issues are there in providing DST updates or Now Showing grouping folders to the Series 1?

    The big difference between Tivo and MythTv is **support**. Once responsiblity for support is pushed out to the customer, MythTv clearly becomes a preferable system. Paying $400 for a three year *commitment* is only reasonable if the commitment is clearly in both directions. If Tivo can arbitrarily decide to stop or only provide ad-hoc support at any time then the 3 year commitment is only the customer being commited to a company that has no true commitment back. Having rights to guide data for unsupported software is like being able to have batteries with nothing to put them in.
  11. Feb 13, 2007 #11 of 691

    jmoak Beware of Conky!

    Jun 20, 2000
    Anyone know what company runs tivo's support phone bank? It'd be nice to know, just for future reference.

    ... and if one day I call in for support just to be told, "WE DO NOT SUPPORT PHILLIPS SERIES 1 AT ALL" (I still use two daily) you bet your boots I'll be taking down names.

    Knowing what I do about tivo, there's no way in god's green earth that I'd take that at face value. Drop support for a platform that's still generating revenue??? No freakin' way!
  12. Mar 3, 2007 #12 of 691

    Opusnbill7 S1 Lifetime User

    Sep 12, 2000
    Lincoln, NE USA
    So....since we're now about a week away from the time change, what's going to happen with the S1 users that aren't going to be left "high and dry"? Just getting close to the deadline so I think most of us are kind of curious... :)
  13. Mar 3, 2007 #13 of 691

    gastrof Hubcaps r in fashion

    Oct 31, 2003
    Potato and pen.
    I'm getting sort of antzy too. :(

    If the clock isn't going to change (and so is WRONG on the morning of the 12th), I'm not even sure how to schedule my manual recording start and stop times. Move everything back an hour until we get to the former date for the clock changing? Then have to move them forward again when the machine's clock starts showing the correct time again (I assume)?
  14. Mar 3, 2007 #14 of 691

    lessd Well-Known Member

    Jan 23, 2005
    If I read this correctly all times are GMT inside the TiVo, on March 12 a program that would start at 9PM DST would show up as starting at 8PM on your TiVo guide data so do not use any outside guide source for your TV program times, just use the TiVo guide times which may be off an hour from the outside guides but if you set your manual recordings for the TiVo guide time you will have no problem with any Series 1 or 2 ( Series 3 has the problem fixed already) recordings. This time thing should not be any problem if TiVo recorded the programs you want but showing the start of the program as EST not DST.

    So if you had a Humax DVD TiVo and a program started at 9PM DST on March 12th at 9PM, on your wall clock (that you moved ahead 1 hour before you went to sleep the night before) the recording would start 9PM; on your Humax the recording would start when the Humax clock read 8PM.
  15. Mar 3, 2007 #15 of 691

    wolflord11 Lord of Darkness

    Jan 16, 2007
    If I was a Series 1 Owner and paying Monthly, I would be more than a little Pi**ed at the lack of support!

    If Tivo cannot support Series 1 Owners, either they need to stop charging them for service, or perhaps offer a FREE upgrade to a later unit.

    Just my 2 cents.
  16. Mar 3, 2007 #16 of 691

    jsmeeker Notable Member TCF Club

    Apr 2, 2001
    I already have guide data for shows that are after the DST start. Shows that normally start at 7:00 say they will record at 6:00 PM. Of course, the TiVo will think it's 6:00 PM when it's really 7:00 PM. Everything will record just fine as long as you have season passes or are selecting programs out of the guide.

    No worries.
  17. Mar 3, 2007 #17 of 691

    ah30k Active Member

    Jan 8, 2006
    Are there any S1 monthly folks around? I can't imagine there are.
  18. Mar 3, 2007 #18 of 691

    Bsteenson TiVo is no BS

    Jul 30, 2000
    I have two Series 1's, both with lifetime service. As long as they are operating, my three Series 2 units get cheaper multiple-unit service fees. Why on earth would I ever consider stopping using the Series 1's as long as they work?

  19. Mar 3, 2007 #19 of 691

    lessd Well-Known Member

    Jan 23, 2005
    And if they are why did they not go to a Series 2 when it was FREE !!!, same monthly fee (so you sign up for a year on a new unit).
  20. Mar 3, 2007 #20 of 691

    wolflord11 Lord of Darkness

    Jan 16, 2007
    Many people have the Series 1's still, and are on Monthly Service.

    You can pick them up cheap, and they make great add ons to your Tivo Collection.

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