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Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by bdraw, Jul 3, 2007.

  1. Mar 5, 2008 #1101 of 2401

    ah30k Active Member

    Jan 8, 2006
    Let me correct myself... you will never be able to tune them without the Tuning Resolver which may or may not ever appear.
  2. Mar 5, 2008 #1102 of 2401

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

    Jul 10, 2004
    San Diego,...
    Even if there were a way to do this, you could not ensure that all of the channels that you use would always be available. One possibility in an SDV system is that all of the bandwidth allocated to the switched set is in use and you're out of luck; the use of switched tuning is predicated on this being unlikely to happen if they choose the channels in the set carefully. So, even with authorized equipment it's possible that you ask for a channel and it responds, "Sorry; I can't give you that channel now, try again later.".
  3. Mar 5, 2008 #1103 of 2401

    bicker bUU

    Nov 9, 2003
    Anything is possible.
  4. Mar 5, 2008 #1104 of 2401

    lrhorer Active Member

    Aug 31, 2003
    It doesn't "screw CableCard devices" at all. All SDV units employ CableCards. SDV is a 2-way service, and as such requires a 2-way host. It's that simple.

    The decryption key and channel map has to be passed to the unit requesting the stream, whether the stream happens to already be there or not. It's very little different than a premium non-SDV channel. The fact HBO is present on your CATV drop doesn't mean you can get HBO until your CATV provider gives your CableCard the information it needs to receive HBO. The only differences are, with SDV, the channel in question may appear on any carrier in the system, and your receiver must request the information from the headend as well as requesting that the headend send out the program. With a non-SDV encrypted channel, the program will always be found on the same carrier, and the information concerning the decryption is sent out once and stored permanently on the CableCard subsystem.

    S2 TiVos don't support CableCards. Neither the S2 nor the S3 / TiVo HD are two way. The fact the STB will make sure the stream is there is irrelevant. Unless the headend sends the channel map and the encryption key specifically for the CableCard that will be receiving the program to that CableCard, the CableCard will never know what to decrypt, how to decrypt it, or to which frequency to tell the host to tune.

    The whole point of SDV is to allow any any content to be served up on any carrier at any time. The odds a particular "channel" wil wind up on a given carrier or even stay there is small. Since the CableCard won't have the encryption key, the point is moot, however.
  5. Mar 6, 2008 #1105 of 2401

    Eccles Mostly harmless

    Dec 27, 2001
    Austin, TX
    Excuse me for not using the correct semantics: "does it screw unidirectional CableCard devices". But since we're being picky, I presume you meant "all current SDV units employ CableCards", because my >6-year-old old SA Explorer sure as hell doesn't have one, and it handles SDV just fine. :p

    I understand that. My question was whether the current lineup was pushed to a (one-way) card-enabled device when first provisioned, and it was able to cache that information locally, and thus be able to receive the same channel again at a later date if it happened to still be on the same carrier, rather than explicitly requesting it every time.

    Unless, as I was pondering, the channel was forced to "stay put". But of course if the information is never sent except in response to a request, then the caching aspect is indeed moot.

    ...unless the channel is being requested again every few minutes, and is thus never released back into the pool of channels eligible to be switched. By constantly requesting a channel, you could effectively lock it to a given carrier, in much the same way that constantly renewing a DHCP lease can result in an effectively-static IP address.
  6. Mar 6, 2008 #1106 of 2401

    pmiranda Member

    Feb 12, 2003
    Austin, TX
    I know exactly what you mean, and while that might get you SDV channels on some other QAM tuning device, it won't get you SDV channels on a TiVo since the TiVo relies on the cablecard channel map to decide what channels to tune, and that channel map has all SDV channels removed.

    As for the people beating you up over your choice of words, just ignore them...they have nothing new to argue over so they like to pounce on people that don't want to follow every nuance of this giant, nearly-worthless thread.
  7. Mar 6, 2008 #1107 of 2401

    Eccles Mostly harmless

    Dec 27, 2001
    Austin, TX
    Indeed, that is the critical point that breaks my hypothesis. Thanks.
  8. Mar 6, 2008 #1108 of 2401

    lrhorer Active Member

    Aug 31, 2003
    First of all, I didn't beat him up, and secondly it wasn't his choice of words that is at issue. It is the fundammental problem which is at issue. The problem is not SDV, and SDV doesn't screw up anything, per se. The problem is that the FCC pointedly and deliberately excluded unidirectional devices from being able to handle 2-way services in it's specifications for all UDCP devices and then failed to provide a specification for bidirectional hosts. Then the proposed contemporary standard which does provide specifications for bidirectional hosts is produced with totally unacceptable reservation in it and is left unratified. This leavs the door wide open to what exactly has happened: the existence of more than one incompatible SDV format and a near inability to produce a reasonably priced universal consumer receiver which can take advantage of 2-way interactive sevice like SDV.
  9. Mar 7, 2008 #1109 of 2401

    dig_duggler losing enthusiasm

    Sep 18, 2002
    Birmingham, AL
    Brighthouse in Birmingham, AL has implemented SDV. Just affecting two channels now but over time it will be all of them.

  10. Mar 7, 2008 #1110 of 2401

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

    Jul 10, 2004
    San Diego,...
    That's unlikely, if their engineering department is any good. SDV only pays off if you choose the channels well--"switching" highly popular channels that will virtually be viewed by someone in every network segment 24/7/365 doesn't help.
  11. Mar 7, 2008 #1111 of 2401

    dig_duggler losing enthusiasm

    Sep 18, 2002
    Birmingham, AL
    I don't know enough about it, but that's what the technical manager (who seemed to know his stuff as much as you can gather in a 3 minute conversation) told me. His words were approximately "eventually we'd like to go all SDV. That's the goal."
  12. Mar 7, 2008 #1112 of 2401

    bicker bUU

    Nov 9, 2003
    Yeah, he didn't mean it literally.
  13. Mar 7, 2008 #1113 of 2401

    lrhorer Active Member

    Aug 31, 2003
    He probably does, although "eventually" is a really big word. There are cost and management efficiencies involved in having a single platform for deployment. Add to that the fact that volume drives economies of scale, and at some point is not unlikely the cost to the MSO for delivering an SDV QAM is no higher than delivering a static QAM. At that point, it doesn't matter whether SDV is more efficient for all channels, or not.

    I also suspect the market share of every individual channel will continue to shrink until eventually there are very few, if any, channels whose market share will guarantee them a slot in any given node at any given time. Beyond that point, every channel will benefit from SDV. Somewhere below a 1% market share, a channel will no longer delivered to the majority of nodes in the system at any given time.

    Frankly,I hope that day comes very, very soon.
  14. Mar 8, 2008 #1114 of 2401

    moyekj Well-Known Member

    Jan 23, 2006
    Now it's official. Add Cox, Orange County, CA to the list of providers deploying SDV. The deployment goes live April 8 2008. See:
    In addition to the above, there are already 9 HD channels as well that cannot be viewed with UDCPs:
  15. Mar 9, 2008 #1115 of 2401

    lrhorer Active Member

    Aug 31, 2003
    I know this was an old post, but I just now spotted it. This is false. The equipment which handles the switching is quite large - typically it occupies several 7' relay racks. The node is the size of a bread-box, and either hangs off a telephone pole or else sits in side a pedestal. Most CATV companies use a pedestal which is smaller than a doghouse to house a node, unless they collocate the power supply with the node. The node does nothing at all other than convert the signal from optical to RF.
  16. Mar 9, 2008 #1116 of 2401

    lrhorer Active Member

    Aug 31, 2003
    Just FYI Here's San Antonio's current lineup. 'Lots and lots of SDV, but only a few in which I'm really interested. Still, there are half a dozen or so HD SDV channels I'd like to get (Discover HD, A&E HD, Animal Planet, National Geographic, etc.)

    * = SDV + = Non-SDV HD

    2 - 76 Analog

    77 TV Guide Network
    80 News 4 WOAI Weather Plus
    81 LATV
    92 KLRN Encore
    93 V-me
    94 KLRN Create
    98 Educational Access
    99 Nickelodeon
    100 HD Movies On Demand*
    101 HD Showcase On Demand*
    104 NBC - WOAI HD +
    105 CBS-KENS 5 HD +
    107 My Network TV - KMYS HD +
    108 PBS - KLRN HD +
    111 FOX - KABB HD +
    112 ABC - KSAT HD +
    113 TBS HD*
    115 The Science Channel HD*
    122 NHL HD*
    124 ESPN HD +
    125 ESPN2 HD*
    127 TNT HD +
    128 A&E HD*
    129 The Discovery Channel HD*
    130 HD Theater +
    134 MHD*
    135 CNN HD*
    136 The Weather Channel HD*
    147 Food Network HD*
    149 TLC HD*
    150 Fox Sports Net HD/Special Events--Channel 150 is not a full-time channel. Programming will be televised as scheduled. +
    154 Fox Business Network HD*
    155 Animal Planet HD*
    157 National Geographic HD*
    160 MOJO (NBA TV HD pre-empted on MOJO) +
    162 HDNet +
    163 HDNET Movies +
    164 Universal HD +
    166 LMN HD*
    167 HGTV HD*
    168 Versus/Golf Channel HD*
    174 The History Channel HD*
    180 HBO HD +
    181 HBO West HD*
    182 Showtime HD +
    183 Showtime HD West*
    184 Cinemax HD +
    185 Cinemax HD West*
    186 The Movie Channel HD +
    187 Starz HD +
    188 Starz West HD*
    192 - 199 HD Movies on Demand*
    200 Sí TV (Espanol)
    201 FLIX
    203 Ovation
    204 Boomerang
    205 NBA TV
    206 Biography
    207 G4-video game television
    208 Speed Channel
    209 Outdoor Channel
    210 Do it Yourself Network
    211 SoapNet
    212 CNBC World
    213 Investigation Discovery
    214 Fine Living
    215 The Science Channel
    216 Discovery Kids
    217 The Military Channel
    218 Nicktoons
    219 FitTV
    220 Discovery Home Channel
    221 VH1 Classic
    222 BET on Jazz
    223 Fox Soccer Channel
    224 Toon Disney
    225 BBC America
    226 Fuse
    227 GSN
    228 Lifetime Real Women
    229 The N
    230 Noggin
    231 MTV2
    232 Texas Cable News
    233 SLEUTH
    234 Current
    235 Bloomberg TV
    236 CSPAN 3
    237 History International
    238 Great American Country
    239 Nick Too
    242 AmericanLife TV Network
    244 CNN International
    245 Fox Business Network
    248 Fox Reality
    249 LOGO
    256 ESPN Classic
    257 ESPNews
    258 ESPNU
    259 ESPN Deportes
    260 FCS Atlantic
    261 FCS Central
    262 FCS Pacific
    263 The Tennis Channel
    264 FUEL
    265 CSTV*
    266 NHL Network
    267 Sportsman Channel*
    279 V-me (Español)
    280 Canal Sur (Español)
    281 Video Rola (Español)
    282 Cine Latino (Español)
    283 Discovery en Español
    284 ¡SORPRESA! (Espanol)
    285 MTV Tr3s* (Español)
    286 Cartoon Network en Español
    287 Boomerang en Español
    288 Fox Sports en Español
    290 CNN en Español
    291 HTV (Español)
    292 Infinito (Español)
    293 La Familia Cosmovision (Español)
    294 HITN* (Español)
    295 EWTN en Español*
    296 Toon Disney En Espanol*
    297 Shop Latino
    300 Encore
    301 Encore Love
    302 Encore Westerns
    303 Encore Mystery
    304 Encore Action
    305 Encore Drama
    306 Encore Wam
    307 Fox Movie Channel
    308 Independent Film Channel
    309 Sundance Channel
    310 Starz
    311 Starz Edge
    312 Starz InBlack
    313 Starz Kids & Family
    314 Starz Cinema
    315 Starz West*
    316 Starz Edge West*
    317 Starz InBlack West*
    318 Starz Comedy
    319 Starz Cinema West*
    320 HBO East
    321 HBO 2 East
    322 HBO Signature East
    323 HBO Family East
    324 HBO Comedy East
    325 HBO Zone East
    326 HBO West*
    327 HBO 2 West*
    328 HBO Signature West*
    329 HBO Family West*
    330 HBO Comedy West*
    331 HBO Zone West*
    332 HBO Latino East (Español)
    333 HBO Latino West (Español)*
    338 WMAX East
    339 OuterMAX East
    340 Cinemax East
    341 MoreMAX East
    342 ActionMAX - East
    343 ThrillerMAX East*
    344 Cinemax West*
    345 MoreMAX West*
    346 ActionMAX West*
    347 ThrillerMAX West
    348 @MAX East
    349 5StarMAX East
    350 Showtime East
    351 Showtime 2 East
    352 Showtime Showcase East
    353 Showtime Extreme East
    354 Showtime Beyond East
    355 Showtime West*
    356 Showtime 2 West*
    357 Showtime Showcase West*
    358 Showtime Extreme West*
    359 Showtime Beyond West*
    361 Showtime Next East
    362 Showtime Women East
    363 Showtime Family Zone East
    365 TMC East
    366 TMC XTRA East
    367 TMC West*
    368 TMC XTRA West*
    380 HBO HD +
    381 Showtime HD +
    382 Cinemax HD +
    383 Starz HD +
    384 TMC HD +
    385 HBO West HD*
    386 Showtime West HD*
    387 Cinemax West HD*
    388 Starz West HD*
    401 - 490 Music Choice
    492 TBN - KHCE
    495 The Word Network
    499 Pay-Per-View Special Events HD
    500 Pay-Per-View Movie Previews
    501 - 508 Pay-Per-View Events
    509 - 523 Pay-Per-View & MOD Movies
    540 Playboy TV
    541 Playboy en Español
    542 TEN
    545 Rendezvous On Demand
    546 Adult On Demand I
    600 NBA League Pass Preview Channel
    601 - 609 NBA League Pass
    612 NBA League Pass HD
    620 - 625 ESPN Game Plan
    627 - 630 MLB Extra Innings
    631 - 640 NHL Center Ice/MLB Extra Innings
    650 - 655 ESPN Full Court
    660 - 663 MLS Direct Kick
    701 TV Japan*
    705 SBTN*
    711 Zee TV*
    712 TV Asia*
    716 DW-One*
    720 The Filipino Channel*
    800 Hollywood Celebrity Products
    801 Shop Latino
    802 Gems TV
    803 Jewelry Television
    804 The Jewelry Channel
    805 Shop At Home
    806 America Auction Network
    807 Cable Response TV
    808 TVSS
    810 Celebrity Shopping
    811 Access TV
    902 Movies On Demand: Classic*
    903 Movies On Demand: Kids and Teens*
    904 Movies On Demand: Action*
    905 Movies On Demand: Comedy*
    906 Movies On Demand: Thrillers*
    907 Movies On Demand: Drama*
    915 The Disney Channel On Demand*
    916 International Movies On Demand*
    917 Español On Demand*
    918 Free Movies On Demand*
    919 HD Movies On Demand*
    920 Movies On Demand*
    921 - 930 New Release Movies On Demand*
    931 Howard TV On Demand*
    932 Events On Demand*
    933 Outrageous On Demand*
    935 Adult On Demand II*
    936 Rendezvous On Demand*
    940 HBO On Demand*
    941 Cinemax On Demand*
    942 Showtime On Demand*
    943 TMC On Demand*
    945 Bevo On Demand*
    951 Cutting Edge On Demand*
    952 Lifestyle On Demand*
    953 Entertainment On Demand*
    954 A&E On Demand*
    955 BBC America On Demand*
    956 HD Showcase On Demand*
    957 CNN Showcase On Demand*
    959 Golf Channel On Demand*
    960 San Antonio On Demand*
    962 truTV On Demand*
    963 Kids/Pre-School On Demand*
    964 Kids On Demand*
    966 Oxygen On Demand*
    967 National Geographic On Demand*
    968 Speed Channel On Demand*
    970 Music On Demand*
    973 Azteca America On Demand (Español)*
    974 TV Guide Spot On Demand*
    975 TNT On Demand*
    976 TBS On Demand*
    977 Español On Demand 2*
    980 Music Choice On Demand: Pop & Rock*
    981 Music Choice On Demand: Urban & Latin*
    988 San Antonio On Demand*
    989 News 4 WOAI On Demand*
    990 Exercise TV On Demand*
    992 Sportskool*
    999 Movies On Demand Previews*
    1301 Automotive On Demand*
    1303 SI On Demand*
    1305 Movie Trailers On Demand*
    1307 Journey TV*
    1308 Election '08 On Demand*
    1310 Expo TV On Demand*
  17. Mar 9, 2008 #1117 of 2401

    JPALMETTO New Member

    May 18, 2004
    Sumter, SC
    Has anyone heard of a class action to settle or at least speed up the resolution to these issues? It seems that both TiVo and cable providers, among others are to blame for selling devices that can not work together.
  18. Mar 9, 2008 #1118 of 2401

    ah30k Active Member

    Jan 8, 2006
    I think you should consult a lawyer and let us know how it goes. People may be interested in joining if you provide some details.
  19. Mar 9, 2008 #1119 of 2401

    dswallow Save the ModeratŠ¾r TCF Club

    Dec 3, 2000
    Considering it's expected in the second quarter of this year, do you honestly believe between lawyers, courts, appeals and foot dragging that anything could ever be accomplished in an adversarial manner in 3 months or less?
  20. Mar 9, 2008 #1120 of 2401

    ajwees41 Active Member

    May 7, 2006
    I haven't heard of cable companies selling devices only renting cable cards.

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