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SDV FAQ

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by bdraw, Jul 3, 2007.

  1. Dec 13, 2007 #801 of 2401
    vstone

    vstone New Member

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    What's needed, and may or not be available or even doable with the SDV designs out there, is for suggestions to have a second class status: i.e., they can be overidden by a request by an active viewer or by specifically requested programming. However, a similar situation exists with cable boxes (DVR or otherwise) and presumably those tens of Vista PC's out there with cablecards. Are digital cable boxes usually turned off, or are just the TV sets turned off? With an HDMI or DVI connection thay might be able to tell, assuming they're programmed to note this. The Vista PCs are left running.

    What can really skew SDV are these folks who have 5 or 6 Tivos (or 5 or 6 cable DVRS, for that matter), most of which are left on all of the time. These installations could wreck havoc in a few specific SDV neighborhoods. Does cable company planning data account for a few of these? Will the cable company have to say you can have only 2 recordable channels? Will they say that each additional recordable channel will cost an extra $50/month? Before you that is outlandish, consider what it will cost them to add an SDV neighborhood to their system just to make one or two Tivo folks happy.
     
  2. Dec 13, 2007 #802 of 2401
    MichaelK

    MichaelK New Member

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    In a free market sure.

    But I’m not sure the current laws and fcc regulations regulating cables 3rd party access would allow such a thing if a fight were to ensue. (but seems tivo would rather make nicey nice so who knows if it would ever matter).
     
  3. Dec 13, 2007 #803 of 2401
    MichaelK

    MichaelK New Member

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    I’m not sure people with 5-6 tivos are a major problem. I think a tivo (or media center pc or anything like it) with 5-6 tuners WOULD be.

    5-6 tivo’s likely are recording many duplicates. So when one box requests the sdv channel be turned on for the node the other 5 can follow along and it means nothing. The problem is if you had 5-6 tuners on my device then all the tuners are looking at something else, and if the drive is empty a tivo might try to get 6 suggestions at once. If the boxes owner has tastes that don’t match the ‘average’ home then that could be a mjor problem if the box goes to pick up 6 different SDV streams.
     
  4. Dec 13, 2007 #804 of 2401
    ajwees41

    ajwees41 Active Member

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    vstone can you explain what you men by the above please? Most digital boxes are never turned off there is no need to.What kind of similar situation are you talking about with the cable boxes? You do know that the current and newer cable boxes have 2 way communications don't you?

    ajwees41
     
  5. Dec 13, 2007 #805 of 2401
    vstone

    vstone New Member

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    Also keep in mind that new Tivos, or even ones that have been cleared, don't know much about what you want so suggestions are going wander all over the place, especially if your 15 year old son plays with it a lot over Christmas vacation while you're at work.
     
  6. Dec 13, 2007 #806 of 2401
    vstone

    vstone New Member

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    Yes, I'm aware that most digital boxes are never turned off or put into standby. Tivos and STBs can be put into standby and save a little power, but I don't know who bothers.

    Yes, I know that most or all digital cable boxes have 2 way comms. The point is, do they tell the headend when the TV sets is turned off or can they even detect that no one is watching and tell the head end. This is relatively easy to do with HDMI or DVI connections assuming the circuitry was designe dto do that, but probably requires additional sensitive circuitry to determine if there is a load on the component, S-video, composite, or even RF outputs. And somebody might tune to amusic channel and then list to it thru an audio receiver and turn off the TV set.
     
  7. Dec 13, 2007 #807 of 2401
    ajwees41

    ajwees41 Active Member

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    I don't think so. I don't think they have the circuitry to do it.
     
  8. Dec 13, 2007 #808 of 2401
    mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    Yeah, I don't think that TiVo's going to object to an ask that suggestions not be recorded on SDV channels. Without the SDV tuning resolver, they will have sold a ton of equipment that a lot of people will be pissed off that they bought. Very few--if any--of their customers will realize that suggestions aren't being recorded from SDV channels.

    vstone, ajwees41--

    I feel fairly certain that the SDV systems use a lease mechanism in which the network will automatically decrement the use count for a channel at the end of a period if the lessee doesn't renew. I can't see how SDV would work if the network had to wait for terminals to explicitly release channels. Approved devices would be required to either know that they still need the channel (because they're in the middle of recording it) or to prompt the viewer for permission to renew. Under these circumstances idle turned-on boxes won't break anything (though it'd be nice if people would turn them off when they stop watching).
     
  9. Dec 13, 2007 #809 of 2401
    vstone

    vstone New Member

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    The addition of more cable HD channels, many as a replacement for existing SD channels (think 11 HBO channels, if you include both coasts), will likely push more and more channels into SDV status. As more people watch more HD programming, the programs that they watch in common may diverge significantly and may not necessarily be on a small group of channels. We HD folk will not be watching the same 10 HD channels, we'll be watching (fill in the blank) and those people who watch the shopping channels 24/7 will watch the HD shopping channels. And since cable actually gets paid to carry these, who knows if they'll end up as SDV? Wouldn't want to have to explain to the shopping channel folk that customers were locked out of channel during the big cubic zirconium sale!

    A "no suggestions from SDV channels" rule could end up meaning only suggestions from whatever ends up in the new (digital) basic tier.
     
  10. Dec 13, 2007 #810 of 2401
    mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    It might (I doubt it, but it might). And this would be tragic in what way?

    I wonder what percentage of recorded suggestions is ever watched? How much time is spent by TiVos fecklessly recording stuff for people that they have absolutely no interest in?
     
  11. Dec 13, 2007 #811 of 2401
    ADent

    ADent Active Member

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  12. Dec 13, 2007 #812 of 2401
    mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    Yeah, but it doesn't require that any particular set of services be available using them. For instance, they know that you can't access VOD services with unidirectional CableCARD hosts and now you won't be able to access services presented as SDV with them either. They're linear channels, but initial access to them is becoming by interactive request only.

    By the way, you can find the CFRs in HTML on a .gov site, here.
     
  13. Dec 14, 2007 #813 of 2401
    lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    Nonsense. The TiVo handling suggestiohns is no different than adding a few extra people ot the house, each with their own TV. The extra amount of recording done by the average TiVo user's box is not going to be significant. SDV is capable of handling tens of thousands, and eventually millions of channels. TiVo useage is a drop in the bucket, even when there wind up being multiple Sereis 3+ TiVos per node. As it is now, I doubt if 1 in 10 nodes has a Series 3 box hanging on it.

    The TiVo doesn't do that, suggestions or not.

    Until they are, they are going to have zero impact on SDV implementations. Should they ever become so, then the CATV provider is going to have to cater to their needs in exclusion of all else, or risk losing the bulk of their customers.

    Oh, of course, but that has no relevance to this situation. Enacting the guidelines you suggest is much like FedEx charging people who live in the very middle of the block more because it costs more to drive to the middle of the block than near a corner. Sure, it impacts only 1 person in 10, but it's a ridiculous notion which fails to assess the amount of money actually saved by not driving the extra 1000 feet. Putting silly restrictions on the TiVo's capabilities won't reduce the load on the SDV system by any significant amount, even if every house had TiVo.
     
  14. Dec 14, 2007 #814 of 2401
    lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    It's neither needed nor desirable.

    The number of these users is statistically completely insignificant. Not only that, but unless the user has a large family with very diverse tastes and each one programs their own TiVo, or unless the user goes to ridiculous lengths to make sure the suggestion profile is different on every Tivo, all six TiVos are going to wind up recording pretty much the same things in suggestions.

    No, because it's a ridiculously far-fetched scenario, which will have a negligible impact on the system even if it were to come about.

    Oh, good heavens!! A single node can handle well over 400 simultaneous videos. One or two, or ten, or fifty cantankerous TiVo users on a node won't overload the system, and it's going to be a very, very long time before one person in ten owns a Series 3 TiVo. As to the cost, it was about $5000 per node, last I heard. It may be much cheaper now.

    Folks, you're stirring up a tempest in a teacup! Once everyone in the U.S. has enough cash laying around to purchase a shuttle ride at a cost of over $1 million, NASA is going to have trouble filling all the requests for shuttle rides, too. I'm sure they are quaking in their boots.
     
  15. Dec 14, 2007 #815 of 2401
    bicker

    bicker bUU

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    Your saying so doesn't make it so, and your assertions don't make sense:
    SDV is based on reasonable projections of usage. It is unreasonable to expect thousands of homes to have a few extra people in the house twenty four hours a day, seven days a week continually watching two television programs at the same time.
    But only a limited number at a time, within a head-end.
    I explained how TiVo without the suggestions limitation I outlined, does.
    Not it isn't. There is no analog to SDV in FedEx's world. FedEx is analogous to Pay Per View: They charge for every single box individually. In order for there to be an analogy, FedEx would have to have a service by which you pay a monthly fee for whatever you want to ship, (or perhaps in an a la carte world pay a monthly fee for unlimited shipping to a specific state). Then, the analogy to the SDV limitation I mentioned would be FedEx not allowing an AUTOMATED process, that has nothing to do with the shipments you actually INTENDED to ship, creating packages to be sent in addition to places you've sent things before. Ludicrous.

    I disagree. We've learned the hard way in our high-tech world that if you leave a door open, you'll come to regret it in short order. Technology is moving forward way too quickly to not take prudent measures. For all we know, MCE will catch on in 2011, and everyone will have four tuner units sitting in their living rooms. We simply cannot know what will happen next year, much less five or six years down the line. And once you open a door, it is very expensive to close it, from a PR standpoint. Over and over again we see this company or that being bashed here in the forums for taking prudent measures to react to changes in consumer behavior. "But we've always been able to do it in the past..." Blech.
     
  16. Dec 14, 2007 #816 of 2401
    Luke M

    Luke M Member

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    A Tivo isn't capable of flooding a switched video system because it can only record two programs at a time. No more than the cableco's own DVRs. Now if you had a DVR that could record 100 channels at a time, then there might be a problem.
     
  17. Dec 14, 2007 #817 of 2401
    vstone

    vstone New Member

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    I delete most, but occasionally find something I really enjoy, usually on a channel not requented.

    I take that you advocate just turning off suggestions permanently?
     
  18. Dec 14, 2007 #818 of 2401
    MichaelK

    MichaelK New Member

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    in the end most people HD or SD are watching a small portion of the availible channels. It's just a fact. Even with HD- the majority of HD watched probably comes from the big 4 networks. Then the top tier cable nets like HBO and ESPN. THen after that it's all split up. The big 4 are not going to be SDV anytime soon- its debatable if ever it would be legal. Once HD reaches critical mass then EPSN and HBO HD are not going to be SDV either. Someone would always be on one of those so there would be no point to move them from linear. After that wealth HD, bug watching HD, weather HD, shoppin HD, are all likely going to be watched by a tiny percentage of people at any one time and so SDV would work for them.

    At some point HD becomes "normal" tv and sd is the oddball and more HD channels would go linear while SD could get pushed to SDV.
     
  19. Dec 14, 2007 #819 of 2401
    bicker

    bicker bUU

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    I don't think so. The "oddball" will always be the niche interests, whether it be SD or HD.
     
  20. Dec 14, 2007 #820 of 2401
    MichaelK

    MichaelK New Member

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    I think lrhorer's points were that as long as tivo's or MCE devices are a tiny percentage then it's like buying rides on the shuttle.

    If we get to the point that everyone needs a ride on the shuttle then it's a different situation.

    If as you hypothesize everyone has a 4 tuner SDV ready DVR in their house than the answers get pretty easy- move everything to SDV except the handful of legally mandated channels that have to be in the clear, split the nodes to make them 250 houses and force everyone to use SDV ready equipment. If everyone has a 4 tuner SDV dvr in their house then most tv's likely will already be hooked to SDV ready stuff.

    the problem comes in when you are trying to build a system that works for SDV AND keeps the legacy people happy by keeping many of the channel in linear form. Once you get to a point where the legacy people are not a priority it's no problem to get SDV to work with a lot of nine's in it's uptime.

    with the digital transition, the lack of cable card acceptance, the looming move to OCAP, the number of people with legacy non SDV ready tuners is going to just keep droping all the time. It's sort of like Directv's move to MPEG4 from MPEG2 for HD- it's really not that big a deal, new services only availible with the newer technology just natural move people to the new platforms.
     

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