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Re-Watching Buffy The Vampire Slayer SPOILERS!

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by hummingbird_206, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. Apr 5, 2013 #341 of 401
    Peter000

    Peter000 Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    Just to note, they may be newbies, but not totally untrained. That was most of the point of gathering them at Buffy's house, so they COULD be trained, IIRC, and we even saw a bit of it.

    The scene I loved was Buffy distributing the Slayer powers to all the potentials, and it showed even some that weren't there being empowered.
     
  2. Apr 5, 2013 #342 of 401
    billypritchard

    billypritchard Embiggener

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    The Cordy progression is definitely debatable in the Angel discussion. The icky Cordy/Connor storyline was definitely a low point, but Season 4 has some excellent parts.

    Season 5 had its ups and downs due to the change in structure, but there are many memorable parts to the arc of each character. Dour and Selfish is a good way to put it, but of course what could they expect working for W&H?
     
  3. Apr 5, 2013 #343 of 401
    Zevida

    Zevida witless and unarmed TCF Club

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    For me, nothing in Angel has ever had the emotional punch of anything in Buffy. I think a lot of it has to do with Buffy featuring younger characters, so you watched them through growing pains of life and the ups and downs of turning into adults, while on Angel, they were adult and though there was some character growth (mostly for Cordelia) there was nothing so dramatic.

    And the things in Angel that are drama are not as relatable - boohoo, Angel the champion who is a vampire with a soul is so depressed he sleeps with his ex-girlfriend vampire to try and lose his soul. Well, it's an interesting story, but it's not emotionally stirring. In my opinion of course. (Compare with Buffy sleeping with her boyfriend, who turns into a monster after is a relatable metaphor.)

    I actually had a pretty big problem with this. I didn't mind the one Slayer concept so much, but now they've essentially created a class of women that is better than the rest of women - just what gender relations needed. Now you don't just feel bad about being worse than men, now there's a whole new group of women to make you feel bad about yourself.

    It would have been much more powerful to show that there is a seed of power in every woman and that they unleashed that for everyone.

    I think that's where the misstep was - they never should have been at W&H. The hotel was such a great set and Angel Investigations had plenty more it could do. Turning it into a show about bureaucracy wasn't a good plan.
     
  4. Apr 5, 2013 #344 of 401
    MikeCC

    MikeCC TiVotee

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    Huh. I guess that's where I find Angel far more accessible to a wider audience. Buffy sleeps with her boyfriend who turns into a monster. Isn't this a very special Lifetime movie?

    But, to me, Angel wasn't about a vampire and his soul. The underlying theme, for ALL the characters, was redemption: each character was trying very hard to atone for things they did in the past. Angel looking to make up for his Angelus horror is the obvious example. But Cordy, and Gunn, and to lesser extents, Fred and Wesley, all are trying to do good and battle evil, because they realize they were selfish or nasty early in their lives.

    Those attempts to atone for prior bad acts seem far more universal than the themes of Buffy, which seems to be more female romantic desire. But then, I wasn't a teenage girl. ;)

    I don't know if you have yet to complete season five of Angel. I found more clunkers of eps than decent ones. But A Cautionary Tale..., and Why We Fight, and Smile Time all rate special disdain, in my opinion. I began to suspect hard drugs were running rampant in the writers' room.

    Fred's transformation was idiotic. And Angel's assistant Eve was a horrible character: I felt the energy being drained out of every scene she was in. Godawful.

    I think you are right that the Wolfram and Hart setting really hurt the series. The behavior of all the characters, once they shifted to the law firm, was unpleasant. Without the family vibe I began to lose interest. They changed from selfless champions to selfish bastards.

    And I didn't want to invite selfish bastards into my home week after week.
     
  5. Apr 5, 2013 #345 of 401
    billypritchard

    billypritchard Embiggener

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    There is no better character journey in the Buffy universe than that of Wesley Wyndham Price. The scoobies on Buffy pretty much (except for I guess Willow) stay the same throughout the 7 seasons. Some growth here, some regression there, but the same main qualities.

    The profound change of Wesley during the baby Connor storyline was the one of the best things done in the Whedonverse.
     
  6. Apr 8, 2013 #346 of 401
    Zevida

    Zevida witless and unarmed TCF Club

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    It probably helps that I'm a girl and the same age as the Scoobies so I identify more with their struggles. I also have not felt like I needed redemption, and I think that's less relatable than much of Buffy. But I respect your analysis and that it's a valid opinion.

    Oh man. Yeah. Smile Time might be the worst Buffyverse episode ever.

    The characters are hollow and wrong this season. Angel has no passion. Gunn should not be a lawyer. Lorne is absent, often getting a throwaway line at the beginning of an episode to explain why he's gone the rest of the time. Amd when he is there, hes emotionless. Fred lost her charm. Wesley stayed the closest to himself but in isolation was dulled.

    It felt like the budgets were cut this season as most character missed a whole or most of whole episode here and there.

    Overall, it's just been disappointing. I have a few episodes left now.

    His transformation from Buffy season 3 to Ange season 2 is a little unbelievable, but once they established him as a fighter and leader, his development from season 2-4 is excellent.
     
  7. Apr 9, 2013 #347 of 401
    DreadPirateRob

    DreadPirateRob Seriously?

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    You were never a high school kid who at times thought that high school was hell? That was the central theme of Buffy for the first 3 years (except that was a literal theme and not just a metaphor). I'm a dude too, and was in my mid-20s when the show started, and even though I was well-liked enough in high school such that those years weren't all that traumatic for me, I still found the series plenty accessible. As the series went on, the theme transitioned to more of the struggle do what is right and what is hard versus the desire to live a "normal" life.

    In fact, I always found Buffy far more emotionally appealing (and satisfying) than I did Angel, even though, as I've said several times, as a whole I preferred Angel's seasons 3 and 4 more than I did Buffy's seasons 6 and 7 when the two were airing consecutively.

    Ah, man, I loves me some Smile Time. I laughed harder at that ep than probably any other Buffyverse episode.

    Now, see, I thought the Fred-to-Illyria transformation was heartbreaking (and also showed off some serious chops on the part of Amy Acker).
     
  8. Apr 9, 2013 #348 of 401
    john4200

    john4200 Active Member

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    Agree. I enjoyed both the Fred and the Illyria characters (as well as Amy Acker).
     
  9. MikeCC

    MikeCC TiVotee

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    The "Fred-to-Illyria" storyline was about the only way they could make Fred anymore special, I guess. After all, the shy girl who was very smart became a medical doctor, their go-to researcher, resident expert on all things physics & chemical & electronic, in fact the expert on pretty much everything. I chuckled more than once during the series, because Fred was a plot contrivance, much like the Star Trek technobabble. Not sure what to do? Have Fred discover or offer some explanation to advance the plot.

    God-like Illyria was only step left to the drug-taking writers.
     
  10. MikeCC

    MikeCC TiVotee

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    Oh I did, too. I laughed until I had tears streaming down my face.

    But my laughter was as I cringed in embarrassment for the cast.
     
  11. jehma

    jehma Active Member

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    Oh, yes on both accounts.

    So so funny - James Marsters was fantastic.

    Another scene that always makes me laugh is this one.

    I'm a huge Spike fan, though.

    I think the Fred-to-Illyria transformation was one of the saddest moments in the Whedonverse.
     
  12. JYoung

    JYoung Series 3

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    They were.
    One condition for the fifth season renewal from the network was budget cuts so the show could be made more cheaply.

    Another network demand was the addition of Spike so with that and the network telling them they had to cut budgets plays into why Cordelia went bye bye.

    However, I still think that the end scene of Not Fade Away is awesome.
     
  13. Zevida

    Zevida witless and unarmed TCF Club

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    Episode 21 of season 5, "Power Play," should have been episode 7 or 8 I the season. It was a great set-up for a season long Big Bad. Missed opportunity.
     
  14. Zevida

    Zevida witless and unarmed TCF Club

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    I thought Not Fade Away was very good, an appropriate end for the show. I thought the build-up was good and the end scene was great. I partly was disappointed that the plan resulted in all of them splitting up so there was no grand fight with them all together. I teared up when Wesley died.

    I didn't like for how they left Lorne's character. It contrasted interestingly with Xander, who was also not a fighter. They gave Xander power in his heart and in his normalness. On the other hand Lorne collapsed in the final season, drifting, without purpose and without use. Instead of anchoring the group as the heart, especially after Fred's death, he became murky. Lorne was a favorite character of mine, shame on the writers for taking all the joy from him.
     
  15. Jul 8, 2013 #355 of 401
    Hoffer

    Hoffer Captain Chaos

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    I don't know why, but I started watching Buffy over the long weekend. I have so much stuff on my DVR and PC to watch, but instead I started watching a 16 year old show.

    Oh yeah, I kinda remember why I started watching it. The Buffy movie was on like Cinemax and I watched it. I thought maybe I'd try the TV show to see how it compared.

    I don't know that I've ever seen an episode of Buffy before this last weekend. I watched all of season 1 and maybe 10 episodes of season 2. So, I had a little Buffy marathon.

    It is a fun show and I wish I had been watching it when it originally aired. There is some big time cheesiness to the show. Probably more to do with its age. The obvious stuntwoman for Buffy bothers me for some reason. :)
     
  16. Jul 8, 2013 #356 of 401
    cal_s7

    cal_s7 Member

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    I have not read the rest of this thread. But I started watching them over again a little while ago.

    Make sure you watch Angel as well. But do so in the correct order. Story lines crossover on a semi regular basis. I think they stand on their own within each show but its even better when you can see both sides of the store arc as it was intended.


    I'm using the list found here.
    http://www.andrewmcdonald.net.au/my-guide-to-watching-buffy-angel-post-tv/

    Basically its the first 3 seasons of Buffy before Angel starts. Then it alternates between the shows till Buffy is over. The last season of Angel was after Buffy went off the air.

    I'm currently a few eps in on Buffy season 5 / Angel season 2.

    I remember they were both good when I watched the originals. Now I'm thinking Angel is the better show. But both are very good and worth watching. I can't wait for the last couple seasons of Angel. I remember it was some of the best stuff on TV at the time so I hope I'm remember it right.
     
  17. Jul 8, 2013 #357 of 401
    billypritchard

    billypritchard Embiggener

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    The stuntwoman will only bug you more as the show goes on. SMG gets thinner and thinner (Hollywood natch) but the stuntwoman stays the same.
     
  18. Jul 9, 2013 #358 of 401
    Hoffer

    Hoffer Captain Chaos

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    Great, I felt a little defeated that there were so many episodes of Buffy to watch. Made me feel like I'll never get around to watching the whole thing. Now I've got to mix 5 seasons of Angel in there as well!!! :)
     
  19. Jul 9, 2013 #359 of 401
    hummingbird_206

    hummingbird_206 Active Member

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    I liked Angel (the series) but I wouldn't worry about trying to watch it in addition to Buffy. There were a few cross-references and cross overs, but you won't be lost if you skip Angel and just stick with viewing Buffy.
     
  20. Hoffer

    Hoffer Captain Chaos

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    Boy, I hit a wall last night. I watched a good episode with John Ritter. Then like the next 2 episodes were a 2 parter about Buffy and Angel's relationship. Such a bore. I would fast forward through Smallville during Clark and Lana stuff. I am not interested in that kind of stuff at all.
     

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