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Re-Watching Buffy The Vampire Slayer SPOILERS!

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by hummingbird_206, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. Zevida

    Zevida witless and unarmed TCF Club

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    S06E19 Seeing Red - B
    S06E20 Villains - C
    S06E21 Two to Go - C
    S06E22 Grave - C

    I just don't love how this season ended. I'm probably being too hard on it, but I just didn't like Dark Willow as an antagonist. I didn't think she was all that interesting, which is odd, since Vampire Willow was so much fun. But Dark Willow wasn't fun. It was just depressing. There were some moments I liked - Giles showing up, Xander at the end, Dawn showing she's got moves, but it was just a bit flat for me. It was another season finale of Buffy running around not knowing what to do and being completely ineffective against her foe. Not fun. (And we just get more of this next season...)

    After finishing Buffy season 6 I went back and blew through Angel season 3. I won't say that in totality Angel is a better show, but as Buffy was faltering in its final seasons, Angel was finally picking up steam. Side-by-side, Angel season 3 was definitely better than Buffy season 6. But even still, the emotional highs and lows never get to me in Angel, like they do in Buffy. Even knowing what happens in Buffy, I sobbed through several episodes. Angel's never even gotten a watery eye out of me.

    I also apparently watched more of Angel than I thought, as I remembered many of the episodes as I watched them. But there were also big things I didn't remember at all - like Justine. I think I liked season 3 better than season 2 - I didn't care for the dark Angel and too much Darla in season 2. I loved Groo coming back, hated that he left. Feel really sad for Wesley. I'd asked earlier about if Angel and Cordy ever got together and they got close here - were on their way to tell each other "I love you" when Angel was sunk to the bottom of the ocean and Cordy ascended. Glad we dodged that bullet.

    I'll be switching back to Buffy and watching season 7 (gulp) next.

    For those who've watched all of Angel, how would you rank the seasons? I still have never been able to watch all of season 1, the show got so much better in season 2 and in season 3 with the full crew (Lorne, Fred, Gunn).
     
  2. Zevida

    Zevida witless and unarmed TCF Club

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    Oh, and I definitely don't think Spike went to the cave looking for he soul. Or if he did, they did a terrible job with that. I know they wanted us to think he went there to get his chip removed, and that makes the most sense. He said about a dozen times "make me what I was" and there is zero way that can be interpreted to mean "give me a soul and make me a vampire with a soul which is something I've never been before ever."
     
  3. LoadStar

    LoadStar LOAD"*",8,1

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    ... unless you interpret it "Make me what I was [before I became a vampire]" in which case restoring his soul makes sense.
     
  4. Zevida

    Zevida witless and unarmed TCF Club

    14,802
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    No, then making him a human would have made sense.

    Also, it was dumb because you'd think something that important he'd be pretty explicit. The writers phrased it that way so it would surprise the viewers, but it was a fail all around IMO.
     
  5. Zevida

    Zevida witless and unarmed TCF Club

    14,802
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    Nov 8, 2003
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    S07E01 Lessons - B

    This season is off to a great start. No mopey, bitchy, whiny, "I died" or "I killed my boyfriend" or "I'm lonely" or "I died again" Buffy. We get a nice mystery at the beginning - who was that girl and why did they kill her? We get Sunnydale High back! Dawn gets her own set of Scoobies. Buffy gets a job at the school. Spike is crazy. All in all, it set things up really well.


    ...
    ...




    .......


    (Man, wtf happened. This season had so much potential. Pun not intended. )
     
  6. billypritchard

    billypritchard Embiggener

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    I think this episode was a giant FU to the fans who wanted something like this (new scoobies, Sunnydale High, etc...). It's a pull the rug out start to the season. 'Oh, you think you want it like this? Ha, good luck with that!'

    But my dislike of the whole season may be clouding my judgement. :D
     
  7. Zevida

    Zevida witless and unarmed TCF Club

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    LOL. I think that's a fair assessment. Recalling what is coming, it feels like they decided to radically change direction at some point. Either they did a bad job setting it up, or they did change direction. The season actually starts out pretty well.

    S07E02 Beneath You - C
    S07E03 Same Time, Same Place - B

    Beneath You made me struggle with the same morality issues that bothered me in later seasons. Anya is a demon. She is causing harm to people. But Buffy doesn't try to kill her. Why? Because they know her? They know she'll cause harm again. If she's a demon, doesn't that mean it's ok to take her out. Anyway, this episode started out as a nice mystery of the week, but flattened out when we realized it was Anya, so not a mystery or baddie to fight.

    Same Time, Same Place is a very good episode, almost A worthy. If I was grading on a curve for this season, it would definitely be an A. There's humor, a great, creepy villain, and some emotional punch.
     
  8. LoadStar

    LoadStar LOAD"*",8,1

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    Well, I rather strongly recall them doing interviews that promised exactly that - "Back to the beginning" was going to be the theme of the season. But yeah, there was a sharp left turn right around episode 7 or 8, and it felt like they threw all of that straight out the window.
     
  9. billypritchard

    billypritchard Embiggener

    4,351
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    Considering those 'friends' of Dawn's don't appear again, did it really take until episode 7 or 8? Or am I misremembering?

    I recall a good episode around maybe 6, right before it went all downhill.
     
  10. Zevida

    Zevida witless and unarmed TCF Club

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    The did go back to the beginning, they just went too far. The First Evil and all. (right?)

    Conversations with Dead People is episode 7 I think and that I recall as being one that is highly regarded. The next episode is when the potential slayer concept is introduced and that's when it all goes to pot.
     
  11. JYoung

    JYoung Series 3

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    I've always suspected that what happened was that there was a master plan that got changed when Geller decided that she didn't want to continue after Season 7.

    I'm also reminded of another forum I lurked at when Season 7 started airing, there was a group over there that hated Season 6 so much that when the first episode of Season 7 aired and didn't meet their expectations, they started writing their own "alternative Season 7" of Buffy.

    And it was awful. I made it about six "episodes" in before I couldn't take it anymore.
     
  12. JYoung

    JYoung Series 3

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    {pedantic}
    Actually the "potential slayer" concept was introduced with Kendra, as she had been trained from a little girl as she had been identified as being in line soon after birth.
    {/pedantic}
     
  13. Zevida

    Zevida witless and unarmed TCF Club

    14,802
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    I brought that up earlier in the thread as something that was glossed over by the show and completely inconsistent with the context of the show so far and made no sense. I don't think they introduced it purposefully with this in mind. I think they made a mistake with Kendra then said, oh hey, now we can change the entire meaning of what it is to be a Slayer.
     
  14. Zevida

    Zevida witless and unarmed TCF Club

    14,802
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    Alright. I actually slept on this before being willing to come in here and give these grades. But I just have to.

    S07E04 Help - A
    S07E05 Selfless - A

    Well, I just loved these two episodes. The themes. The performances. How they fit into the world of Buffy. I want to hate season 7, and I'm pretty sure that's coming, but it really started off with some excellent work.

    Help is a powerful reminder that you can't stop everything. It has a great mix of fun (the intro), campy (the high schoolers raising the demon), the serious (Willow visiting Tara's grave) and the poignant (Cassie). It's a real call-back episode to the first three seasons being so focused on the school. I really love Cassie the character and the actress who plays her. This one was a home run for me.

    Selfless is such a well done episode cinematically, I love some of the cuts it makes, from a flashback of her singing to Anya against the wall seemingly dead with a sword in her chest. The filters on the scenes of Anya when she was Aud to make it look old was great. Anya singing again was great. The fight with Buffy was great. The ending was so fitting and it really did make me teary-eyed. Despite not liking that they ended up in this place (Xander and Anya broken up and Anya a demon), this episode was a fantastic tribute to Anya's character and the most important episode in her character arc.
     
  15. Zevida

    Zevida witless and unarmed TCF Club

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    S07E06 Him - B
    S07E07 Conversations with Dead People - A
    S07E08 Sleeper - C
    S07E09 Never Leave Me - C
    S07E10 Bring on the Night - D

    Despite being a repeated plot device (and acknowledged with a flashback clip), I found Him to be quite entertaining. Especially Buffy and Spike fighting in the background as Wood worked at his desk.

    Conversations with Dead People was great. Definitely the best episode of the season. Flipping between Buffy, Dawn, Willow and Andrew really showed how each character is looking for their place. It was especially touching when Andrew asked Jonathan if they'd really be able to join the Scooby gang.

    And with that, we have hit the high point of the season.

    Sleeper was ok, but I'm getting tired of crazy Spike. Same with Never Leave Me. Neither have a strong individual story and neither move the arc along significantly.

    And then Bring on the Night brings on the suck. The first three sucky potentials show up. Just what we needed, more teenage girls. And Buffy fights and is pummeled by the uber vampire, because that's what we like, seeing our hero meet yet np another foe she cannot defeat (the Mayor, Adam, Glory, Willow). I hate seeing Buffy get beat to sh*t and her speech at the end isn't inspiring, it's just stupid.
     
  16. Zevida

    Zevida witless and unarmed TCF Club

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    Nov 8, 2003
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    S07E11 Showtime - C
    S07E12 Potential - B

    Showtime was meh. More of Buffy getting her butt kicked by the ubervamp and more potentials being whiny pains in the rear. At least Buffy finally killed the ubervamp at the end. The death match was marginally cool.

    Potential is more of the same but gets bumped up to a B because of the very poignant moment between Xander and Dawn at the end that got me teary-eyed. That was great. Otherwise, I don't really understand why Dawn can't train anymore just because she's not a potential. Buffy was training her at the start of the season. Stupid, and makes Buffy look like the worst sister ever.
     
  17. Zevida

    Zevida witless and unarmed TCF Club

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    Nov 8, 2003
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    And, I'm done! I finished the second half of season 7 in a binge this weekend. Ostensibly I was supposed to be packing for my upcoming move while I was watching, but I watched 9 episodes today and packed 1/2 of 1 box. :eek:

    The net is that I disliked season 7 less than I expected. In fact, I came close to almost liking it. I think the binge viewing helped tremendously. There was no time to dwell on the parts that sucked. There were also no expectations, I thought it was going to be terrible, so it had a pretty low bar to meet. It is still not the way I wish the season had gone, but I gotta watch what they made and I enjoyed myself.

    S07E13 The Killer in Me - D
    S07E14 First Date - C
    S07E15 Get it Done - B
    S07E16 Storyteller - B
    S07E17 Lies My Parents Told Me - B
    S07E18 Dirty Girls - C
    S07E19 Empty Places - C
    S07E20 Touched - C
    S07E21 End of Days - B
    S07E22 Chosen - A

    I'm not sure I have enough to talk about each episode individually. I did not like Kennedy or care so much about when Willow turned into Warren - why did Amy do that to her? They never even resolved that.

    I like Andrew's development and appreciated that he was added for comic relief.

    I liked Buffy in this season so much more than in season 5 or 6, where she was dark, dour and dreary the whole time. Even with the weight of the world on her shoulders, she was quippy, brave, inspirational, and fun. Back to Buffy! Generally I liked anything that involved Buffy being right and having a triumph, which happened a couple times in the last two episodes.

    I loved Angel showing up, providing some help, then leaving. Their final scene actually made me cry. I'm such a sap. Though I do get a little mad at Angel - he's had plenty of chances to be with Buffy and he always chooses to give it up so what right does he have to hope she still pines for him. Bah. Those two! They drive me crazy.

    Wood being son of a slayer I had forgotten - but was an interesting story and a nice way to finally get rid of Spike's chain that the First could pull, though it happened too late in the season.

    I thought the finale was fitting, as much as I hate the potential slayers, who annoyed me all season, and as much as I hate that the ubervamps, who Buffy could barely kill one in ten minutes, are being dusted left and right by a bunch of untrained newbie slayers, it just hit all the right notes for me: Angel, Spike's redemption, Faith fighting alongside, Dawn standing up for herself, the Scoobies once again fighting in the halls of Sunnydale High. Well, it just worked and I cried at the end.

    I'm going to miss this show all over again! I might go back and just watch the set of episodes I rated A. Well, after I finish Angel.
     
  18. DreadPirateRob

    DreadPirateRob Seriously?

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    Yeah, that was my reaction to S7 on the whole, especially after I re-watched it. The speechifying by Buffy was less bothersome, and I really thought they stuck the landing with the finale (besides the aforementioned sudden vulnerability on the part of the Uber-vamps).
     
  19. Apr 4, 2013 #339 of 401
    Zevida

    Zevida witless and unarmed TCF Club

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    Angel season 4 wasn't great. Connor was terrible. Evil possessed Cordy was terrible. Jasmine was terrible. There wasn't a whole lot redeeming. I guess they did a good enough job with the cliffhangers to keep me watching and I do like Wes, Gunn, Fred, and Lorne.

    Season five so far is Bizarro Angel. I don't know what the writers were thinking.

    I definitely think the peak of the show was mid season 2 through season 3. No way it's better than Buffy. Maybe better at that time than Buffy season 6. But not even close comparing the shows overall.

    It is pretty fun to watch episodes of Mad Men after watching Vincent on Angel. The character Connor might have sucked, but he's a good actor!
     
  20. Apr 5, 2013 #340 of 401
    MikeCC

    MikeCC TiVotee

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    Season 4 and 5 of Angel I think were the worst. Season 4-Cordy was uneven, and was not her usual self. Of course, we do find out why.

    Season 5 of Angel, sans Cordy, was just awful. I thought Angel and his merry band had no place within Wolfram & Hart. The group lost whatever family vibe they once had, and without the sly wit of Cordelia, each character grew dour and selfish.

    Season 5 was impossible to take seriously, with so many of the plots being just downright mind-numbingly stupid.

    Still, I'd agree that seasons 2 & 3 were the series best. However, where I differ from your assessment, I feet Angel seasons 2 & 3 did a great job of giving the viewers a better story arc and more intriguing characters than Buffy could.
     

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