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QAM mapping letter campaign (HD w/o cablecard)

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by smbaker, Aug 16, 2007.

  1. Aug 28, 2008 #821 of 2121
    Saxion

    Saxion Substantive Member

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    Nope, the laws still apply.

    Note that cable companies are not required to carry the digital versions of local broadcast stations; but if they choose to, they must be unencrypted and available on the most basic tier of service.

    FCC Sec. 76.901 (link):

    FCC Sec. 76.630 (link):

     
  2. Aug 28, 2008 #822 of 2121
    bicker

    bicker bUU

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    Fixed your post. (The rules you're referring to apply to local broadcast channels.) Also, it should be noted that some MSOs consider the requirement to carry the HD signals deferred until February. Reasonable people disagree about that, so you may experience it either way.

    For cable networks, they can offer channels as they see fit.
     
  3. Sep 29, 2008 #823 of 2121
    kamcma

    kamcma New Member

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    Quick question. In my dorm I really have no control over the cable, but it is Cox basic with the clear QAM network channels. They do map the channels to the correct numbers so that they appear just as their OTA HD counterparts. If If I only care about these HD QAM channels and not the rest of the SD cable, can I tell a TiVo HD it's getting an antenna signal and it will work, maybe by plugging the cable line into the antenna input? Or is this wishful thinking?
     
  4. Sep 29, 2008 #824 of 2121
    vstone

    vstone New Member

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    No. The antenna connection is connected to an antenna tuner. The Cable connection has a cable tuner. Feeding the cable signal to the antenna tuner will not find the clear QAM signals, although it might find some of the cable analog signals.
     
  5. Oct 8, 2008 #825 of 2121
    Zimm

    Zimm New Member

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    You know what gets me about this issue? I just tried to see if I could get OTA HD channels so I can get the guide data for those channels. As I suspected I have very bad reception. What I did notice is that all of the channels it was kinda able to tune mapped to the exact same channels that the QAM channels show up at in the guide. I kept the OTA channels in the guide although I can't tune them and they provide the guide data for the QAM channels that appear right below them.

    What this tells me is that Tivo is obviously capable of mapping the local HD's to their equivelent OTA channel assignment but they just refuse to link the OTA guide to them.

    I know everyone is just going to say "Just get the cablecards and be done with it". I really don't feel like getting these troublesome things when it seems like all Tivo has to do is allow the OTA guide data to map to the QAM channels.

    /rant
     
  6. Oct 9, 2008 #826 of 2121
    vstone

    vstone New Member

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    My feeling has always been that most cable plants keep screwing up the clear QAM settings, accidentally or on purpose. Time Warner Cable clear QAM channels used to correspond to their channel listings (CBS-HD on 805, etc.) About FEB 14, 2007 that changed, although they didn't ever admit that changes were made.

    They refuse to admit that they have to support clear QAM tuners at all and refuse to release a clear QAM channel listing, probably because they would then have to publish changes to said listing.

    Among the settings that some have seen are numbers listed 805, OTA PSIP #'s like 7-1, other numbers that appear to match freq-subchannels assignment 104-1, and sometimes just 0.

    I think Tivo probably ahs figured that this would be a mess to wade into. I hope that the FCC will eventually look at clear QAM support, at which time Tivo will fall in line.
     
  7. Oct 9, 2008 #827 of 2121
    bicker

    bicker bUU

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    To be clear, there is no requirement to publish a clear-QAM channel listing (and you should really bring that up to the FCC if you're concerned about it), and there is cost associated with any publishing of any information whatsoever, so unless there is a demonstrable profit advantage to publishing that information I see no reason to expect it to be published.

    Regarding PSIP, as noted elsewhere, the requirement is to pass-through PSIP data provided to the MSO by the broadcaster. So first step is establishing that the feed that the broadcaster provides to the MSO actually has proper PSIP in it. Not easy, I'll grant you that, but that's the way things are. These kinds of concerns are too limited in scope to be satisfactorily address by CSRs on the line. Focus your attentions on corporate customer service, and/or engineers once you get access to them.
     
  8. Oct 9, 2008 #828 of 2121
    Saxion

    Saxion Substantive Member

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    Sep 17, 2006
    San Diego
    The solution may be nearer than you think.

    At this point, the best hope for a solution to this problem is the tuning resolver. Although this device is usually discussed in the context of SDV, there is no technical reason it must be limited to this purpose. The TR is a very simple device. It maintains a channel map of all the cable virtual channel numbers and sends that to the TiVo upon request. The TiVo then sends the TR a virtual channel number whenever it wants to change channels, and the TR responds with a set of RF tuning parameters (frequency, subchannel, etc). If the TR needs to communicate with the headend to resolve an SDV request, it does so before responding.

    The TR is not limited to resolving only SDV channels. It can resolve any channel. A CableCARD is not needed since the TR maintains its own channel map.

    All that is required here is for TiVo to not tie support for the TR to the presence of CableCARDs, and for your cable company to agree to send you a TR even if you are unaffected by SDV.

    As soon as TRs start showing up, someone can easily test this and we'll know if TiVo supports it. If not...we'll have a new letter writing campaign to focus on. :)

    (By the way, here is a link to the TR specs).
     
  9. Oct 9, 2008 #829 of 2121
    Saxion

    Saxion Substantive Member

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    San Diego
    Here are some quotes from the spec regarding the use of the TR for non-SDV channels and without CableCARDs:
     
  10. Oct 9, 2008 #830 of 2121
    JYoung

    JYoung Series 3

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    Interestingly enough, when my local Time-Warner realigned the clear QAM a couple of months back, they changed the QAM HD channels to match the OTA channel ids.
    So QAM 2.1 is same channel as OTA 2.1.
    But the channel IDs don't quite match.

    OTA KCBSDT is id'ed at KCBS-DT on QAM.
    OTA KNBCDT is iding as NBC4-LA on QAM.
    OTA KABCDT is iding as KABC-DT on QAM.

    Bizarre.
     
  11. Oct 9, 2008 #831 of 2121
    vstone

    vstone New Member

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    That would be great, but if my system will not get SDV in the near future, there will be nothing in the cable system for the tuning resolver to talk to.
     
  12. Oct 10, 2008 #832 of 2121
    jrm01

    jrm01 New Member

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    Comcast Pittsburgh did the same thing here six months ago. It actually helps when doing manual recordings. I can't get my local ABC station OTA, but I keep it in my channel list just to see the guide/program info. Then when I set up the manual recording I know to select the WTAE-HD station, not the WTAEHD station.
     
  13. Oct 21, 2008 #833 of 2121
    Adam1115

    Adam1115 20,000!!! TCF Club

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  14. Oct 22, 2008 #834 of 2121
    mattack

    mattack Active Member

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    Do you have any evidence that that's actually possible on S3? There haven't been any new posts in that thread for a long time.
     
  15. Oct 22, 2008 #835 of 2121
    Adam1115

    Adam1115 20,000!!! TCF Club

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    Yes. It's actually possible.

    You'll have to google 'other tivo forum' to find more though.
     
  16. Oct 23, 2008 #836 of 2121
    Saxion

    Saxion Substantive Member

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    Thanks Adam. It is possible to hack one's TiVo to get QAM channel mapping to work, but of course that method isn't for everyone. You have to be technically inclined, and deal with replacing a soldered chip on the TiVo motherboard, which utterly voids your warranty. I continue to advocate for an elegant solution, one that even my mom and dad could use (who by the way would both buy a TiVo HD if only it would support the clear QAM channels they already watch daily and which they already pay for, without requiring any more $$$ be sent to their cable company). It shouldn't requiring hacking to record what we already pay for and which we can easily view on our TVs. But that's just me... :)
     
  17. Oct 26, 2008 #837 of 2121
    flatpanelgeek

    flatpanelgeek New Member

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    Oct 26, 2008
  18. Oct 27, 2008 #838 of 2121
    bicker

    bicker bUU

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    To be clear: If you're getting PSIP channel mappings/allocations but not program data, then the fault is generally with the broadcaster, not the cable company.
     
  19. Oct 27, 2008 #839 of 2121
    billyjoebob99

    billyjoebob99 Member

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    That's all well and good but even if the broadcasters and cable companies do everything perfectly we still won't have guide data for QAM channels on our TiVos.
     
  20. Oct 27, 2008 #840 of 2121
    slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    Not to mention that filing an FCC complaint is next to useless in this case, because they've never shown an inclination to enforce this. Which is sad, because it would make all clear QAM capable devices a lot easier to use.
     

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