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Pro black-screen tuner failure, but Mini works!

Discussion in 'TiVo Roamio DVRs' started by lew-wolfgang, Sep 27, 2013.

  1. Oct 23, 2013 #81 of 159
    jwbelcher

    jwbelcher New Member

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    Nov 13, 2007
    Orlando, FL
    How about you?
     
  2. Oct 23, 2013 #82 of 159
    HarperVision

    HarperVision TiVo's Italian Cuz!

    5,275
    3
    May 14, 2007
    Paradise...
    I haven't had any time whatsoever to play the last week or so. All I know is that any recordings I've watched have worked (knock on wood) and I haven't heard from the war dept on how all theirs have gone, but no news is good news!
     
  3. Oct 24, 2013 #83 of 159
    jwbelcher

    jwbelcher New Member

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    Nov 13, 2007
    Orlando, FL
    I received a new Roamio today (replaced original) and the new software update installed. Unfortunately for me the black screen issue immediately appeared while changing channels (up / down and selecting via guide). Time to upload logs...
     
  4. Oct 24, 2013 #84 of 159
    BHNtechXpert

    BHNtechXpert New Member

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    Nov 7, 2011
    Just a reminder to Bright House Networks customers....feel free to contact me however there is no need to request to open a ticket. We are aware and have already engaged all relevant parties. At this point Cisco is driving this ship and we all wait for their fix to be released. Once released to each of the MSO's it will undergo additional testing (like any other product) and upon certification will be pushed to all of the impacted devices.
     
  5. Oct 25, 2013 #85 of 159
    jwbelcher

    jwbelcher New Member

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    Nov 13, 2007
    Orlando, FL
    How do you all check a missed recording? I record several programs that are re-runs and hard to tell if one failed. Do you know if failed recording get reported in the history list?
     
  6. Oct 25, 2013 #86 of 159
    peekb

    peekb Member

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    Feb 11, 2005
    A failed recording in the History list usually shows as "Not recorded", and the detail on the right side of the screen will describe why (usually "No Signal").
     
  7. Oct 25, 2013 #87 of 159
    jwbelcher

    jwbelcher New Member

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    Nov 13, 2007
    Orlando, FL
    I thought it might, but wasn't sure since my history is just starting over.

    Btw, I set a recording on a channel that I got a black screen tuning today. The next show was about 15 mins later so I thought it might be interested to see if it would fail to record the show. At the scheduled time, Tivo re-tuned the channel and is currently recording the episode.

    Maybe they did add some additional logic on scheduled recordings for this issue?
     
  8. Oct 25, 2013 #88 of 159
    jwbelcher

    jwbelcher New Member

    489
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    Nov 13, 2007
    Orlando, FL
    I haven't read anyone mention this in this thread, but I occasionally get "channel not available" when changing channels. Although I get video for about 2 secs before this alert shows up and screen goes black. If I press select, similar to when a SDV channel goes idle, it will re-tune in the channel successfully. Also, in the DVR diagnostics it shows the TA returned this "unavailable" status.

    Does anyone else occasionally get this with a Cisco Tuning Adapter attached?
     
  9. Oct 27, 2013 #89 of 159
    lew-wolfgang

    lew-wolfgang New Member

    26
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    Sep 23, 2013
    San Diego
    Still Bad

    I finally had enough available time to swap out my original Pro with the replacement on Saturday afternoon (Oct 26). As expected, the new Pro exhibits the same intermittent black-screen tuner failure as the old one.

    I do notice some differences, however. The CableCard report screen doesn't show "Analog" for failed channels now. Some of the other fields are also blank too. Here's a short list of the values on a failed tune:

    Freq -
    Modulation -
    Program Number -
    Signal Strength -
    Signal Lock No
    CableCard Association None
    ProgramLock No
    Search Complete No
    Decrypt Record Channels 5 (12345)
    (notice that the failing tuner is listed now, it was before IIRC)

    (Signal to noise ratio was 36-dB)

    I also noticed that it won't let me manually record a black channel.

    The Mini wouldn't associate until another call to TiVo this morning, but now that it's working, as before, it tunes perfectly. Further, I added a second Mini and it too tunes perfectly.

    So while it looks like there have been some minor "changes", the basic failure to tune problem is still there.

    Looking back at recent thread postings here, it seems that the thought is the Cisco TA is at fault. While there may very well be a problem with the TA, it is still unexplained to me why the slave Mini(s) work while the master Roamio doesn't. It uses the same TA after all.

    Someone with access to the source code just needs to look and find the differences in how the Mini requests channel changes from the Roamio.
     
  10. Oct 27, 2013 #90 of 159
    HarperVision

    HarperVision TiVo's Italian Cuz!

    5,275
    3
    May 14, 2007
    Paradise...
    Egg-Zackly! ;-)
     
  11. Oct 27, 2013 #91 of 159
    jwbelcher

    jwbelcher New Member

    489
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    Nov 13, 2007
    Orlando, FL
    I dont believe it always works for mini. I did a test and hung my mini up. I selected 5 SDV channels on Roamio and recorded whatever was showing. I then brought up live TV on the mini, tuned HBO / Showtime premiums (SDV). It worked few a bit, but after a dozen or so channel changes voila, hung. Got a black screen and the waiting graphic. Waited all night, it never came back. I think this myth is busted.
     
  12. Oct 28, 2013 #92 of 159
    lew-wolfgang

    lew-wolfgang New Member

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    Sep 23, 2013
    San Diego
    I'm the OP for this thread and I just finished replicating your scenario (again) and selected channels continuously for 30-minutes without error. How long would you suggest that I select channels perfectly before you might concede that in "my" case I'm not propagating a myth? I'll say it again: I have never encountered a failed tune from "my" mini since I purchased it, and the Roameo Pro, in early September of 2013.

    Could it be, jwbelcher, that you are seeing a different problem than the one I've documented? Do you use a Cisco CableCard and Tuning Adapter? If yes, than this is an interesting data point that adds another variable to the mix. Maybe we should compare firmware version numbers?

    BTW, why would you think I'm propagating a "myth"? What motivation would I have? I'm not a plant by TiVo's competition, as is evidenced by my praising TiVo in a number of posts here. Indeed, I just purchased a second Mini and will likely purchase two more in the not too distant future.

    I promise, if I ever see a failed tune on a Mini I'll report it here ASAP.
     
  13. Oct 28, 2013 #93 of 159
    jwbelcher

    jwbelcher New Member

    489
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    Nov 13, 2007
    Orlando, FL
    Ha, wow, sorry that the term myth upset you. I'm glad its working for you, but it is not as 100% reliable for me.

    Cisco firmware versions:
    Cablecard : PKEY1.5.3_F.p.0601
    Tuning Adapter: STA1.0.0_1520_LR_F.1601
     
  14. Oct 28, 2013 #94 of 159
    lew-wolfgang

    lew-wolfgang New Member

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    Sep 23, 2013
    San Diego
    That's interesting, I have exactly the same versions.

    Who is your provider? Mine is Cox Cable South San Diego. If we have identical hardware, then the difference must be the cable provider somehow? Could varying loads on the cable system (time of day?) be the variable that gives the intermittent tuning behavior? In my case, how does the Mini request channel changes, through the Roamio, that is different than how the Roamio does it itself? Someone will have to go to the "source".
     
  15. Oct 28, 2013 #95 of 159
    jwbelcher

    jwbelcher New Member

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    Nov 13, 2007
    Orlando, FL
    Brighthouse Networks Orlando. Its really hard to say why its different though. I used to think the Mini / dynamic tuning allocations were handled differently too, but after two black screens, I was no longer sure.

    Its difficult to understand why if Roamio has the issue, why the Mini would not (being tuned via Roamio). Especially since we hear that Cisco is providing a fix for that issue. I'd expect Tivo is handling tuner allocations from Roamio and Mini through the same "tuner pool" mgmt. Once the Mini is allocated a tuner, Roamio still has to perform the calls to the TA as the UDCP client. It would seem bad coding practices if that was different code talking to the TA for the Mini. However, maybe there is some additional fault tolerance since Mini is remote??

    BHN in Orlando has approx 458 SDV channels on the TA and I can barely change channels w/o getting a black screen. Maybe my setup just triggers the issue more frequently. What's interesting, I've not missed a pre-scheduled recording due to signal loss. However, I was able to trip it by recording an in-progress show that had already lost signal. That's my only missed recording due to signal loss in the recording history.

    My current theory is that anything past two tuners runs has risk of failing. Largely b/c my series 3 runs all day w/o any issues. My guess is that you could get black screens on 4 tuners but be unable to produce the issue on the final two. If your mini gets one of these two "good" tuners, maybe it always works.

    Most of this is all conjecture though without us having any real quantitative analysis to go on.
     
  16. Oct 28, 2013 #96 of 159
    lew-wolfgang

    lew-wolfgang New Member

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    Sep 23, 2013
    San Diego
    I have the same experience. No missing scheduled recordings, which implies that this process tunes the same way the Mini does (in my case).

    Exactly. My hope is that TiVo is watching all this and is using it as valuable feedback from the field. I wonder who did the programming/integration for the Roamio operating system and drivers? I hope it's in-house at TiVo! Working with software engineers in Taiwan would certainly present challenges. My second Roamio says it was made in Mexico on Sept 4 2013.
     
  17. Oct 28, 2013 #97 of 159
    HarperVision

    HarperVision TiVo's Italian Cuz!

    5,275
    3
    May 14, 2007
    Paradise...
    Well there's the problem. The poor lil' TiVo guy drank the water there and has had tuner diarrhea ever since! ;)

    Edit: hey why don't we have a TiVo guy emoticon???
     
  18. Oct 30, 2013 #98 of 159
    jwbelcher

    jwbelcher New Member

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    Nov 13, 2007
    Orlando, FL
    I'd consider putting one of the minis on the family room TV until the TA fix is rolled out to avoid black screens. Now that you can manage the season passes, it would be pretty comparable.
     
  19. Nov 1, 2013 #99 of 159
    dlfl

    dlfl Cranky old novice

    6,997
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    Jul 6, 2006
    Near...
    Is this "black screen" problem the same thing that has been known for years as the "SDV Tuning Failure" ?

    To clarify, when SDV tuning failure occurs the screen is indeed black. But the defining characteristic is that the frequencies shown for the channel you attempted to tune are different in DVR Diagnostics and Tuning Adapter Diagnostics ... SDV SESSION INFO. And you can almost always tune the channel by a re-tune, e.g., chan up/chan down. After a successful re-tune the two frequencies now are the same as the one previously listed in TA Diagnostics.

    I've always had this problem on my Tivo HD (Model 652160).

    Assuming this is the same TA problem that is the topic of this thread, I cringe at the thought of trying to get some meaningful interaction in reporting it to my cable operator (TWC). They haven't even updated the TA software to the latest build and the last time they pushed an update it disabled all TA's on the system for a day. They are generally clueless, and I suspect uncaring, about TA issues.

    Obviously if it isn't the same problem addressed by this thread, I sure don't want to start beating my head against the TWC wall.
     
  20. Nov 1, 2013 #100 of 159
    jwbelcher

    jwbelcher New Member

    489
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    Nov 13, 2007
    Orlando, FL
    The primary issue is where the status in the Tivo DVR diagnostics show "Response Pending" when requesting the TA to tune a channel. There are no frequencies shown in either the Tivo or the TA diagnostics.

    If your seeing different frequencies reported between the two, that likely is something different. I have a TivoHD and this "Pending Response" issue never occurs with it.
     

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