1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Pause Buffer

Discussion in 'TiVo Roamio DVRs' started by --Scott--, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

    19,180
    23
    Jan 31, 2002
    Northern...
    People have been asking for a longer buffer since the TiVo has been in existence. Fifteen years later and it is still 30 minutes. I wouldn't expect it to change.
     
  2. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
    0
    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    On those music channels I was mentioning, they play in 4 hour blocks in the guide. I can be at 3:59, press record, and the buffer will backfill the whole guide slot, and it will all be there, audio and video (what little video is involved).

    If I try rewinding past 30 minutes, without hitting record, all sorts of weird things happen, and the screen for any song might show up for what is playing...

    So, bitrate has a profound effect on those channels, but real programming in SD or HD where there's a much greater bit rate difference don't seem to differentiate.

    It's odd how it will cleave at the proper guide slot start and end time. Buffers used to backfill past the guide slots, and I liked that, in some cases.

    Just an observation/data point, nothing more.
     
  3. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

    19,180
    23
    Jan 31, 2002
    Northern...
    They still fill past the guide slot. They always have. It's annoying to me when it happens because then you have several minutes of the previous show which I don't want. It happened to me this weekend when I hit record on a show on the Science channel and got several minutes of the prior show.
     
  4. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
    0
    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    Actually, we both participated in a thread where some were posting your POV, and others were upset that backfilling beyond (before) the current program slot had stopped happening, instead clearing the buffer of what was being watched, and starting the recording of the current program slot in the guide, etc.

    I don't recall the software version things were at for that discussion. But at the time, backfilling further back than the current program slot, had stopped working. Shake loose any memories of that discussion for you?
     
  5. astrohip

    astrohip Well-Known Member TCF Club

    10,055
    40
    Jan 6, 2003
    Houston &...
    I've tried to stay out of this thread, as we've beat it to death a dozen times in the last few years. Those that want it, want it. You can try to sell it any way you want, but you're defending a dead horse. "technical reasons". HA! They just don't want to write the code to handle it, as is their choice to make.

    It's neither feasible nor realistic to tell someone "just record it". As has been pointed out (and quietly ignored), sometimes there is something on the buffer and you just didn't know you would want to watch it. Any buffer is cool; a longer one would be better. I addition to my 3 TiVos I also have a DirecTV Genie--only 2 live buffers, but both are 90 minutes. There's not much I prefer about the Genie, but the buffers win.

    "Having longer default buffers digs way deeper into the capacity than recording a few additional shows does." Really? Let's see, 6 buffers, add 1 hour each, that's... six more hours used. I have over 50 movies recorded, all 40 Game of Thrones, and another 40-50 shows waiting to be watched. And I'm at 42% capacity.

    I think I'll give up the capacity.:D

    This is no different than the endless threads on a Free Space Indicator. We used to discuss for hours on end the pros and cons, the reason why and why not. People would say "we don't need one, let your TiVo decide what to keep" and other arguments like they really knew the answer. The answer was TiVo finally gave us one, and that's that. Not one single discussion since about how it should show this, and shouldn't count that. It just works.

    One day the buffers will magically lengthen, and that will be the end of these threads every six months.

    Or what Diana Collins said much better than me while I was typing.
     
  6. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
    0
    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    Am I the one "being quietly ignored", or part of that demographic?
     
  7. jrtroo

    jrtroo User

    4,059
    5
    Feb 4, 2008
    I'm not sure why folks think I really care, as I do not. Want what you want, go ahead and live on the edge and manage buffers. I'm only explaining how it works, what a user can do to manage it without risking loosing the show (which is still easy to do in any of the scenarios discussed above).

    6-90 minute buffers is nine hours of HD. What is the likelihood that someone finds a buffering show and hits record instead of managing the buffer? I don't know, but my only point is that to some folks nine hours is a lot in the buffer when compared to a few shows recorded manually once in a while. I also note that suggestions could also help capture this content. I'm just counting here, not explaining the right way to manage a tivo, to each their own.

    I have never had a use for the FSI either, but it is there and I leave it on. NBD.
     
  8. FitzAusTex

    FitzAusTex Member

    296
    0
    May 7, 2014
    I'll add that I do end up using record, but my main point is that far too often I can't record an entire 60 minute show if I'm anywhere from 31 to 59:59 minutes into it. Unfortunately for me, I'm the type of person who won't watch most shows that I've missed the first few minutes of. A buffer of at least 60 minutes would enhance my use of my tivo significantly. I don't expect to get this, but I sure would like it.
     
  9. aridon

    aridon Member

    244
    0
    Aug 31, 2006
    It is a foolish feature to be without on a DVR. No reason what so ever for there to be only 30 minutes on your active tuner for pause.

    Recording is a half ass work around that doesn't always work well.

    The space indicator and this are excellent examples of how fanboi's can be.
     
  10. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

    19,180
    23
    Jan 31, 2002
    Northern...
    ??? For pause? Recording works. You never know how long you could be away from the TiVo. Or an incorrect button press and the buffer is gone. I learned in the early 2000's to just hit record instead of pause. It has worked well for me.
     
  11. aridon

    aridon Member

    244
    0
    Aug 31, 2006
    If I'm watching the last 10 minutes of a live show and someone knocks on the door or the phone rings MY viewing habits might not be conducive with just hitting record. Lets say I do just that and 45 minutes later i come back. Now I have the last 10 minutes but missed the next program. Sure I could just record the next one as well but its getting kind of stupid now when all I should of had to do was hit pause and let the TIVO not be completely retarded and ignore the 75% empty space on my Pro.

    How does having a longer buffer on the engaged tuner hurt you or anyone else in any way? It doesn't.

    There is no reason what so ever why we should be limited to tiny live buffers, especially on an active tuner.
     
  12. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
    0
    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    That's a logical, and simple, approach that makes sense (at first glance). Pare down how much customizing I wanted, and let us have control over the active buffer/tuner.

    On the flip-side (after the first glance), think of how many situations result in switching away from the currently active buffer/tuner, which would make every such instance a change of active buffer/tuner.

    So, dynamic approaches to the buffer might work for some, but would be worse for others. I still find being able to (selectively) turn-off buffering attractive, but can't draft up an approach that would bear scrutiny.

    So, I'm at the point where I see limited possibilities:

    1. Selectable buffer size, effective across all tuners.
    2. Turn off all buffering (but not scheduled recordings) in standby mode.
    3. Maybe have a query before entering standby on buffer/no buffer.
    4. Allow the active tuner to buffer in standby, until something scheduled might tune it away from what you would want to stay buffering (like CNN, in my case).
     
  13. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

    19,180
    23
    Jan 31, 2002
    Northern...
    And if you had a recording occur after that 10 minutes that tuner could be taken and be tuned to a different channel and you would have no buffer on the previous channel. There is no guarantee the tuner will be on the same channel when you get back.
     
  14. FitzAusTex

    FitzAusTex Member

    296
    0
    May 7, 2014
    What I actually dislike nearly as much is how the tivo won't record the buffer of the previous show once you've moved past the end of airtime. For example, I can't record the last 28 minutes of a show at 8:02pm that ended at 8pm. Was very used to this on my previous dvr. Oh well.
     
  15. Diana Collins

    Diana Collins Well-Known Member TCF Club

    2,642
    34
    Aug 21, 2002
    New York...
    OMG! This thread is exactly following the pattern nooneuknow posted elsewhere:

     
  16. mattack

    mattack Active Member

    20,743
    4
    Apr 9, 2001
    sunnyvale
    Actually, with your "far too often" comment, I'm not sure if you're aware of this.. But you OFTEN do get far more in the actual recording than the buffer shows you.

    The black box perspective people have (reasonably) hypothesized in the past is that the Tivo uses a fixed SIZE buffer, but the UI always shows you 30 minutes of buffer.. But hitting record ends up turning the whole buffer into a recording.. So you often do get the whole show when doing this.
     
  17. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
    0
    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    The most I've ever seen a buffer backfill (not counting ultra-low bitrate music channels) beyond the 30 minutes is ~15 minutes more on some SD channels. I have yet to find a single HD channel that will add more than ~1 minute to the 30 minute buffer.

    This is all based on the buffer content being within the guide data slot allocated for the current time in conjunction with the buffer for the program in that slot being past 30 minutes into that program. Another factor is that the actual tuner being used, has been on the same channel, without being changed-away and back, etc.

    Example HD scenario:
    Guide says: This HD Program 1PM-2PM
    Current time is: 1:45PM
    Pressing record results in: This HD Program, missing the first 15 minutes.

    It doesn't even matter if it's the active program, buffering from the same tuner, on the same channel, for a week. 30 minutes is what I get.

    Example SD scenario:
    Guide says: This SD Program 1PM-2PM
    Current time is: 1:45PM
    Pressing record results in: This SD Program, anywhere from the beginning (but not before the beginning) to missing the first 15 minutes (there's no consistency to it).

    Example Music Channel scenario (music, with very little video activity):
    Guide says: MC Rock Hits 2PM-6PM
    Current time is 5:59PM
    Pressing record results in: Entire 4hr recording, as listed in the guide.

    This is more like what you speak of. The non-recording buffer bar shows 30 minutes, and it can't RW before the beginning of that 30 minute indicator. The record button gets the whole slot and the whole bar, and everything is as it should/would be, if I had just set a scheduled recording for it.

    Anything on SDV, not on the foreground/active tuner, tends to lose all of the buffer. Even if in the foreground, and TV is then turned off, upon turning the TV on, there will be no buffer, as the SDV system has the ability to detect the state of things via the Tuning Adapter, and unlock the tuning. SDV wouldn't work, if every tuner of every box was able to hold onto a SDV frequency indefinitely. I've found the only way to keep a SDV buffer is to keep the TV on, not use TiVo standby mode, and keep it in the foreground. KMTTG has a feature that will tell you what each tuner is on, what is in the foreground, and will state "loopset" when the TiVo decides the foreground tuner isn't being actively used for anything, especially when it's SDV (takes a lot less for SDV channels in the foreground to be declared idle).

    Something that used to happen for SD/HD:
    Guide says: Prior Program 1-2PM, Current Program 2-3PM
    Current time is: 2:35PM
    Pressing record (used to) result in: Prior Program's last x to xx minutes tacked onto the beginning of Current Program, and "Current Program" is what lists in My Shows. Often less backfill in HD, than SD.

    Where I've seen exceptions to everything (except SDV or music) so far, is when the tuner involved had recorded something recently, and has stayed on the same channel since then. Sometimes the buffer is able to backfill up to 2 hours back. There's far too many different results I've seen with this to detail it all.

    While I can see how some people disliked old behaviors, where backfill would/could tack on nearly the whole length of the previous program, when pressing record on a current program, resulting in current program with previous program content at the beginning, I wish I could have that back.

    How would I do it to try and please both sides?

    1. Pressing record from Live TV backfills as much as it can, within reason.
    2. Choosing guide, then using the guide to record, only backfills enough for the specifically selected guide item. This would be exceptionally great for What To Watch Now programs that just happen to be on a channel a tuner is already on.

    It's simple, and as close to the best for both sides, of this never-ending debated topic, as it gets, IMO. If it seems too much "work" for anybody, to use one way to get one result, and the other way for the other result, I guess there's just no way to please such people.
     
  18. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

    19,180
    23
    Jan 31, 2002
    Northern...
    Just in the last few weeks, I've had several recordings I initiated from the buffer, from HD channels, and it picked up five to eight minutes of the previous show.
    The most recent one was this past Sunday. From the Science channel.
     
  19. mattack

    mattack Active Member

    20,743
    4
    Apr 9, 2001
    sunnyvale
    I'm 99% positive I've seen close to a half hour on SD channels. I don't remember at the moment how far back I've seen it go on HD channels..
     
  20. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
    0
    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    Instead of replying to every post on the matter, I'll just say that this must be a YMMV situation.

    I think my experience with pressing record at 3:59 into a 4 hour music channel (resulting in getting the whole 4 hour segment) proves the amount of extra buffering that can backfill when record is pressed is proof of video bitrate being a factor in how much "invisible buffer" can be retrieved.

    I attribute any difference with Discovery, Science, etc., to many providers using H.264 encoding, which is more compressed (in an effective manner).

    It's not like as if the "invisible buffer" isn't there, if the drive has adequate space to prevent it from being overwritten.

    As far as getting some of the past program tacked-on by pressing record, I'll go with YMMV. But, I still like the concept I presented before about using the guide giving clean cuts, and using record backfilling as much as possible (within reason).
     

Share This Page