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Patriot Media/Central NJ/Cable Cards/S3

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by trlyka, Sep 27, 2006.

  1. jbarrie

    jbarrie New Member

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    Sep 17, 2006
    NJ
    I asked about this last fall. Darlene assured me that the Patmedia PVR takes no notice whatever of copy protection. I didn't smile any more than you probably aren't.

    Again, at the time, there was a lot of discussion on the AVR Forum site (for the Sony DD500) about the "conspiracy" of the cable companies to force customers to rent their low grade PVRs (forever, of course).

    I think the conspiracy theory is a bit much, but my evidence of falsehood would be for Patriot to fix this copy protect problem that there's no question that they've created.

    The harder I pressed, the more entrenched their management became. The temperature was pretty chilly by the time I gave up in mid Spring, this year. A little help from a bunch of you good folks would make some difference. I am sure I am the only person who protested.
     
  2. cassiusdrow

    cassiusdrow New Member

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    May 21, 2003
    NJ
    From everything I have read (including some CableLabs documentation), this type of copy protection only affects CableCARD products that are recording programs. Cablebox PVRs do not have to adhere to the CableCARD copy protection rules because they are not CableCARD devices and CableCARD devices that do not record are unaffected because they don't actually record anything.
     
  3. MichaelK

    MichaelK New Member

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    Jan 10, 2002
    NJ

    have you found any laws regulations or rulings (dockets) from anyplace explainign what is and isn't allowed for the flags?

    From what I gether the Memorendum of Understanding between Cable and CEA in 2002 said that the 90 minute BS flag was only to be used for VOD and PPV. And that in 2003 the FCC essentially blessed the agreement. But I cant find the regulation that made it so and i cant even tell if the FCC gave the whole MOU 'approval' or only the parts unrelated to copyright flags. I cant even find the text of the MOU anyplace.

    I'ld like to have the facts so when I call/write to complain I can clearly point them to the appropriate place to show them what they are doing is wrong.
     
  4. MichaelK

    MichaelK New Member

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    Jan 10, 2002
    NJ

    anyone call back yet?
     
  5. cassiusdrow

    cassiusdrow New Member

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    May 21, 2003
    NJ
    I am not a lawyer, but the references to this that I found where in Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, Chapter I, Subchapter C, Part 76, §76.1904. This reads to me as they are not allowed to limit copying on any programing that is broadcast over the air (NBC-HD and such should be set to copy freely), and they are only able to apply the "copy never" flag to Pay-Per-View and Video On Demand, which should allow pausing for up to 90 minutes. The DFast License and SCTE 41 also outline the CCI flags. They have violated both of these conditions.

    I left a message for Joanie on Friday 10/06/2006. She returned my call about an hour later and she said she would speak to the engineers and call me back.
     
  6. MichaelK

    MichaelK New Member

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    Jan 10, 2002
    NJ
  7. MichaelK

    MichaelK New Member

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    Jan 10, 2002
    NJ
    well I emailed the VP and have yet to hear anything. I included the link to the CFR and explained the way I read it was they were not in compliance with the regulation (I dodn't want to say breakign the law just yet). I was curteous and praised there great customer service and the great product compared to Directv but told him this cablecard issue was a major problem.

    I have been investigating some more and there is clearly a huge mess going on here.
    besides the blocked channels listed above:
    UniversalHD, DiscoveryHD, INHD, INHD2, TNTHD, HBOHD, HDNET, HDNET Movies by cassiusdrow and espn by jbarrie I also find it's on starzhd. I didn't check them all but the ones i checked were all set to 0x03.

    BUT MORE SCREWED UP is a random sampling of the all digital channels (101and above) shows the CCI flag is basically NEVER 0x00 (like it apparently should be on the retransmitted broadcast locals) but mostly 0x02 or even 0x01 which apparently is only supposed to be reserved for copy once that's already been copied- so that shouldn't be on any live tv show at all.

    either their is a serious bug someplace in their headend, the moto cablecards, or the tivo, or they just have their whole headend set terrible wrong.
     
  8. cassiusdrow

    cassiusdrow New Member

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    May 21, 2003
    NJ
    I've also had random shows on NBCDT and ABCDT hit with the 0x03 copy never flag. This has stopped me from removing my season passes from my Pioneer 810 and S2. At least I'll still have the SD version if the flags are set wrong on the S3.
     
  9. MichaelK

    MichaelK New Member

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    Jan 10, 2002
    NJ
    where are you located? I'm in Flemington and use an antenna in my attic to get the philly stations so i dont have to deal with this mess for the broadcast networks. I silver sensor and a preamp works great from here. That's another option to get HD.

    (I too have an S2DT and an 810 for SD- the S2 actually makes an alright picture if I record the HD channel from the moto box and then zoom it on my tv. IT's not HD but at least widescreen and somewhat better than SD)

    I got nailed on CBSDT and WNETDT so dont trust anything from them (although I'm not sure the flag was 0x03 at the time or not)
     
  10. cassiusdrow

    cassiusdrow New Member

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    May 21, 2003
    NJ
    I'm in Hillsborough. I haven't tried to setuping up an OTA antenna. I live in a townhouse and I'm not sure I'll get a clear enough signal from my attic. I'd like to buy locally so I can return it if it doesn't work, but I haven't found anyplace that sells them. I haven't really looked very hard though.

    I've been using the same trick of recording the HD channels on the S2 box, it does look better than the analog channels.
     
  11. MichaelK

    MichaelK New Member

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    Jan 10, 2002
    NJ
    I'm in a townhouse in flemington and my antenna's in the attic. Circuit city at the somerville circle has the phillips brand silver sensor. You probably need a preamp though- circuit city might have one. If not, is there still a radio shack in the shopping center by amwell road and 206? IF not there is one here in flemington on 202 about 3 blocks south of the circle (accross from home depot) and i would guess the rat shack must have 'em.

    Patriot has most of the stuff you can get with antenna but there is something cool about getting 20 or 30 channels/subchannels all for free. Plus you'll get philly so if you are into sports you can get different stuff sometimes from the philly feed versus the NY affiliate.

    There's a million varibles but if you can buy local and return i'd try it for sure.
     
  12. cassiusdrow

    cassiusdrow New Member

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    May 21, 2003
    NJ
    I'll check CC then. Thanks for the info. I have say the thought of running more wire to the attic doesn't thrill me. I spent several weekends running cat5 and coax and crawling around in the attic here sucks. And I've already filled up all the jacks behind my AV rack.
     
  13. MichaelK

    MichaelK New Member

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    Jan 10, 2002
    NJ
    looks like PERHAPS annoying the VP worked. Or the joanies engineers figured it out.

    I'm still going through all the channels to see what's up but right now I set up a recording on HBOHD and it's FINE- no nuke flag. CCI is now 0x02.

    Looks like they still have the 02 on NBCHD which is also wrong but just getting rig of all the darn 90minute self destructs is a huge huge plus!
     
  14. MichaelK

    MichaelK New Member

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    Jan 10, 2002
    NJ
    i'll report back with the cci's for all the channels when i get a chance...
     
  15. MichaelK

    MichaelK New Member

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    Jan 10, 2002
    NJ
    Patriot might be yoiung and learning but they ROCK.

    all the HD channels are now CCI 0x02

    all is well.

    No one has gotten back to me to tell me what was up yet but looks like they fixed the erroneous 0x03 flags for sure.
     
  16. cassiusdrow

    cassiusdrow New Member

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    May 21, 2003
    NJ
    A recording from HDNET last night was not sticken with the "copy never" problem for the first time since the cablecards were installed so that is a good sign. But unless I hear something from Patriot, I'm sceptical that they actually did anything. It could have been the 8.0.1b update TiVo pushed yesterday.

    Either way I'll take it.
     
  17. MichaelK

    MichaelK New Member

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    Jan 10, 2002
    NJ
    I forced the .b update last night and checked right after and there was no change at that point. So I THINK it was something on Patriots end. But I havn't gotten a reply either so cant be sure.
     
  18. trlyka

    trlyka New Member

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    May 21, 2003
    MichaelK,

    I sent your questions on to a few different people that I thought might be able to answer. Here is the email:

    My Original email and I included your questions....

    Hi guys,

    I belong to the Tivo Community forums. I started a thread regarding the Tivo S3 and our cable cards. I would like to get as much information on the cable cards as possible. I would also love to have a point of contact should a cable card question come up that I can't answer. Below is a post from one of our customers. This is an example of many questions people have. I appreciate your help on this. Thanks


    The reply......

    Tracie,

    I will have to double check but I believe all of Patriot’s channels are set to “Copy Once”

    Over the air channels are not encrypted by Patriot and therefore easy to pick to up with a digital tv. In fact, a cable card would not even be needed to pick up OTA digital channels.


    Then I replied back......

    Jim,

    Is the question regarding the self destruct accurate? I think the concern is that they can't copy and save certain programs/channels. Especially the premium channels. I really don't understand how a program can self destruct. Or is it that it won't record anything over 90 min? Why would we limit a program to only be recorded once or not at all? Are we set for 00x03 or 00x02? I am not sure what this means except according to the person with the questions, I assume in one mode it allows you to copy and the other won't. Sorry for all the questions, but this is a big deal to Tivo users. I have several non Hi-Def Tivo units and will eventually purchase the S3.

    Thank you


    End of email...

    You'll have to forgive my ignorance. I am not familiar with all the Tivo terminology used here :confused:

    I'll keep you updated the best I can as I get more information.



     
  19. cassiusdrow

    cassiusdrow New Member

    130
    0
    May 21, 2003
    NJ
    Tracie,

    Thanks for you help with these issues.

    The 0x03 notation is how the CableCard displays the CCI (Copy Control Information). The codes translate to:

    CCI byte EMI values:
    0x00 - Copy freely (no restriction on copying)
    0x01 - Copy no more (this is a "copy once" after one additional copy has been made)
    0x02 - Copy once (only one additional copy may be made)
    0x03 - Copy never (no copies can be made, and recordings must be deleted after 90 minutes)

    There are three issues:

    1 - Premium channels (HBO, etc) and HD Plus channels (HDNET, INHD, etc) are set to "Copy Never" (0x03). "Copy never" is only permitted to be used on Pay-Per-View and Video On Demand according to Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, Chapter I, Subchapter C, Part 76, specifically §76.1904, paragraph (b)(1). These channels can at most be set to "copy once" (0x02). It is possible that his issue has been resolved as both MichealK and I have been able to make recordings form some of these channels and they do not self-destruct as you put it.

    2 - HD Channels for the local broadcast networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, etc) are set to "Copy Once" (0x02). Channels that are broadcast unencrypted over the air should always be set to "copy freely" (0x00) according to Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, Chapter I, Subchapter C, Part 76, specifically §76.1904, paragraph (a).

    3 - No channel should ever be set to "copy no more" (0x01). This is intended to be used in conjunction with "copy once" (0x02).
     
  20. MichaelK

    MichaelK New Member

    7,308
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    Jan 10, 2002
    NJ
    trlyka-

    thanks for gettign involved. I emailed JG and although I havne't heard back I think he had someone work on it - since it was partially fixed last night.

    I learned alot more since my original post.

    (I will preface this all with - "as best I understand")

    Basically there are 4 possible CCI values for different restriction levels:

    0x00 - do whatever you want (MUST be used for OTA- allowed for cable)
    0x01 - copy no more (would be set by the tivo after copying a 0x02 below)
    0x02- copy once (allowed for 'cable channels)
    0x03- copy never (only allowed for PPV or VOD and causes content to self destruct in 90 mns)


    Before last night many of the HD "cable" channels wer set to 0x03 (they are all listed above in the various posts but it's pretty much irrelevent now since they all seem fixed now). WHich was illegal. They changed all those to 0x02 so that was great.

    MOST channels you guys have set to 0x02. WHich is totally fine for cable type channels. But apparently illegal for the rebroadcast locals. Even though though they fixed the 0x03's last night they still have the HD locals set to 0x02- that is not legal and they should correct it. Right now it's not a probelm for tivo- but if tivo gets MRV or TTG workign then it will be a big deal and there will be another uproar. ALso- I haven't checked the SD digital subchannels like weather plus and the like- but those probably need to be oxoo to be legal too.

    Also- I havne't had time to go through each and every SD digital channel but you should tell them to double check those. (it takes forever with tivo to dig up the CCI on a particular channel so i just checked every HD and a few SD's) I happened to stumble along one channel 102 NikP is set to 0x01. That is not allowed for cable. They can only use 0x02 (or 0x00 for no restrictions). So there certainly could be others. That will absoultely make a mess for MRV/TTG. So they should probably check to make sure there are no other 0x01's- I only looked at maybe 10 sd channels and happened to see that one.

    Incidently you might ask them why are they even setting everything to 0x02? If the content providers dont require it of you guys (and I doubt every single channel does) then you are just putting undue restirctions on your customers for no reason at all.

    thanks agin for passing along my our concerns. You guys really are great how responsive you are.
     

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