There seems to already be a lot of CableCard talk on many threads so in an attempt to keep them consolidated by company here is an official thread for Comcast, I just made this thread since I am a Comcast customer, if others want to make official threads for their cable companies go for it! Making one thread for each cable company should ease everyones diging through 100 different threads for cablecard info.
Some relevant info that I have read about comcast so far is the following:
-If you explain to Comcast that both cable cards are for one device people have been successful in no additional monthly charge, one user reported getting good success with calling comcasts 800 number and speaking with a cable card department
-Others have had good luck with going to their local comcast office and getting cable cards directly from them, this saves the installation fee and is quicker
Myself...I called Comcast and got the same spiel as most others have heard, free card for the first one and additional charge for the second of 5.95 (may not be exact, I didn't write it down) and installation charges for both the install of both the first and second cable cards of 20something bucks and 15something bucks. I realize now that I left out some details about my device that may have lead on to these extra charges, I am out of town now but plan on hitting my local Comcast office on Saturday and just trying to get them to give me the cards and I will do the install, or I will call back and try and speak to someone who understands and get the second (additional outlet) monthly charge dropped as well as the installation costs. BTW I live in the Chicago area since some people have experienced different things with the different areas of Comcast. Let me know your thoughts on my experience, what you have heard and try and keep comcast details on this thread so we can all have an easier time keeping up with what others have heard. Also post your region so we know which flavor of comcast you are dealing with.
-AJ
To me, the inconsistency is that if they call it a digital outlet fee or the like (when adding the second cable card, there was a "+" sign that could be expanded to show the individual charges), then they are charging you for a line-item that means nothing, and that they are not entitled to charge you for. That, combined with what I understand to be a "reasonableness" requirement for the charge...and the FCC's own suggestion that the charge is usually between between $2-4 dollars (some hint as to what is "reasonable"). Maybe I'm off-base, but I think the various rules on that page make it clear that you aren't to be extorted like that. If I turn out to be wrong, I'll probably have to resort to using my fancy new toy only for ClearQAM, which mostly defeats the point.
You're not being extorted - you're paying less than someone who has a Comcast-provided box (per FCC regulation the box fee is comprised of a card fee + a cardless box fee, and you pay the card fee while a set-top box renter pays both fees).
If the market couldn't support it no one would get a set-top box.
Cable operators must price CableCARD rental fees uniformly across a cable system whether the CableCARD is used in a leased set-top box or a retail device. Cable operators must prominently list the CableCARD fee as a line item both on their websites (in a manner that is readily accessible to the public) and on their annual rate cards. At a subscriber's request, they also must provide such information orally or in writing. See 47 C.F.R. §§ 76.1205(b)(5), 76.1602(b).
You're not being extorted - you're paying less than someone who has a Comcast-provided box (per FCC regulation the box fee is comprised of a card fee + a cardless box fee, and you pay the card fee while a set-top box renter pays both fees)
If the market couldn't support it no one would get a set-top box.
This is a complete non-sequitor in a conversation such as this. Cablecards are clearly NOT a market-based response to anything, and they specifically exist as a result of regulations where there was a perceived market failure and/or monopoly conditions exist. The fact that people are not aware of their rights and/or don't know that there are superior options to the crappy boxes that cable companies provide speaks much more to the failures of third-party options to market themselves effectively and the fact that there are almost certainly not enough resources for the FCC to educate people.
[edit]Also, keep in mind that with the exception of Tivos in some areas, the boxes people are putting cablecards into don't provide access to the full range of the cable company's offerings, specifically OnDemand. For some people, that is reason enough to get the cable company's box, as foolish as I think that assessment is in most cases.[/edit]
The whole point of cablecards is that there was a decision made that consumers shouldn't have to put up with the way that the cable companies operate, or pay the prices that they charge for junky boxes. Also straight from the FCC site:
Benefits of Retail CableCARD Devices
Many consumers prefer the convenience (and cost savings) of being able to receive their cable programming without having to lease a set-top box from their cable operator.
As someone who has been on the satellite side of things for most of my adult life, I confess that I am not the world's foremost expert on cablecards (or I wouldn't be here asking questions), so I allow for the possibility that I am missing something, but your points are not compelling.
I just added a second Tivo. I was not charged an HD fee or an outlet fee, and got the $2.50 credit on the first one. Will be interesting to see what I am charged now, since a tech had to come out to "pair" the card. It was actually paired fine, but only worked one day, then reverted to clearQAM because they entered it in their system as a cablebox and not a cablecard.
That's the rate for the first outlet - Comcast's programming tiers include the rental for the first set-top box for those tiers that require a box. If you want that programming on a second outlet you pay the additional outlet fee for an additional set-top box.
FCC requires Comcast to give you a price break if you have a TiVo rather than a cable co set-top box. This demonstrates that if you have a set-top box you're paying for it in the programming tier.
The point is that the card rental must be consistently priced whether it's in their box or your TiVo.
FCC Rule 76.1205:
(5) Separately disclose to consumers in a conspicuous manner with written information provided to customers in accordance with § 76.1602, with written or oral information at consumer request, and on Web sites or billing inserts; ...
(ii) If such provider includes equipment in the price of a bundled offer of one or more services, the fees reasonably allocable to:
(A) The rental of single and additional CableCARDs; and
(B) The rental of operator-supplied navigation devices.
...
( 1 ) CableCARD rental fees shall be priced uniformly throughout a cable system by such provider without regard to the intended use in operator-supplied or consumer-owned equipment.
The point of the customer-owned equipment discount is that it should be allocable to the rental cost of the box. The difference between the additional box rental and the discount is the rental fee for a card in an additional outlet.
This is a complete non-sequitor in a conversation such as this. Cablecards are clearly NOT a market-based response to anything, and they specifically exist as a result of regulations where there was a perceived market failure and/or monopoly conditions exist.
My entire point is that TiVo owners are not being singled out. If you want one set-top box from Comcast it comes bundled with your programming tier. If you want a second set-top box you pay $8.95 or whatever the additional outlet fee is.
If you have one TiVo you (should) pay the tier price less the Customer Owned Equipment discount. If you have a second TiVo you (should) additonally pay the additional outlet fee less an additional COE discount.
You don't have to like it but there's logic in how it works, when it works.
Comcast regularly undercharges some subscribers according to their published tariff (example: Charging the $1.10 second cable card fee rather than additional outlet fee for a second TiVo, and then discounting the second outlet by $2.50, making 2 cable cards cheaper than one) but it doesn't follow that subscribers are getting ripped off when they're charged according to the tariff.
My entire point is that TiVo owners are not being singled out. If you want one set-top box from Comcast it comes bundled with your programming tier. If you want a second set-top box you pay $8.95 or whatever the additional outlet fee is.
If you have one TiVo you (should) pay the tier price less the Customer Owned Equipment discount. If you have a second TiVo you (should) additonally pay the additional outlet fee less an additional COE discount.
You don't have to like it but there's logic in how it works, when it works.
This rests on the premise that television providers aught to receive something for each television in the home. That is a tenuous premise for any number of reasons. I am aware of nowhere that the FCC has stated that this is the case. Comcast does not charge for DTA boxes. Analog cable could be split easily with little consequence when done properly, and at some point in time, the cable companies stopped worrying about that.
Just because there is A logic to it, doesn't mean that the logic is good, or lawful. The logic here is to maximize the money to the cable company.
As a general rule, there is no additional cost to the cable company for the consumer adding additional outlets in their home. If it doesn't cost them anything, then why should the consumer pay for it (in a regulated environment, not a purely free market)?
Comcast regularly undercharges some subscribers according to their published tariff (example: Charging the $1.10 second cable card fee rather than additional outlet fee for a second TiVo, and then discounting the second outlet by $2.50, making 2 cable cards cheaper than one) but it doesn't follow that subscribers are getting ripped off when they're charged according to the tariff.
Clearly, individual cases do not speak to the greater point of what the law requires, or what the intent of the law is. This goes both ways, both overcharges and undercharges.
Analog cable could be split easily with little consequence when done properly, and at some point in time, the cable companies stopped worrying about that.
Actually what's happening now is very much like what happened way back in the days of early cable. When cable first came out you needed to rent a box for each TV. Then TV's became "cable ready" so you didn't need to rent boxes, but cable companies started charging outlet fees. Sure you could split the cable yourself, but if the cable company came out and saw you had done so, they jacked your rates. Then the FCC became peeved and the cable companies dropped the fees such that it was one charge per household (though that charge began to go up).
Then digital cable came along, a cable company's dream come true, since not only did it require boxes again, but it was unhackable so no third party descrambler boxes. Cable companies moved to all or mostly digital and they could then charge per TV again, but along came digital cable ready TVs. What would the cable companies do now? Encrypt all their channel, making the TVs worthless. That wouldn't do so the FCC mandated cableCARDs, which cable companies reluctantly went along with, charging whatever they wanted per card (Comcast was actually cheaper than many other providers). Then the FCC said pricing had to be reasonable so we're back to cable companies charging outlet fees just like in the "olden days". Actually worse than olden days because an outlet is a box, not a TV. Two DVRs connected to one TV is two "outlets".
The cable companies will end up losing this battle though since multi-tuner DVRs and streaming boxes (like TiVo's upcoming ip set top box) will basically stop the per TV charge since the cable companies won't know how many TV's you are using. As far as they'll know you have one cable card. Basically the third party whole home DVR should kill outlet fees for good. Knowing cable companies though, they'll probably start charging per tuner on 3rd party boxes.
Outlet fees are and always have been a racket. It's like the cell phone companies charging for text messaging. Both cost their respective company next to nothing to provide so it's virtually 100% profit.
I had been paying nothing for two CableCards in my S3 for the last 5 years.
There was an $8 Digital Additional Outlet fee and 2 credits of $2.50 for Customer Owned Equipment. I was ok with that. I had unsuccessfully tried to argue the DAO fee a year or so ago with no luck. They wouldn't budge. That was before I familiarized myself with some of the FCC rulings. They come in handy when arguing with this corporation.
I recently added a second S3 and low and behold all my fees had changed. I was charged $1.10 per CableCard for a total of $4.40 plus TWO $8 DAO fees but SHOCK - my credits remained the same only 2 @ $2.50. Adding the 2nd TiVo increased my bill to an unreasonable Dollar amount. I had reached my limit and was finally ready to spend the time discussing this with as many people at Comcast as it would take. There was simply no way I was going to pay them $122.40 per year JUST to add my 2nd TiVo. I already pay through the nose for programming.
I called and was eventually transferred 3 levels up arguing about the customer owned equipment credits and the DAO fees, constantly citing the FCC rulings. After about 30 minutes on hold, the billing "specialist" I spoke with "admitted" they had made errors in my billing and agreed to remove the $8 fee (and credit me for 12 months of it), adjust the CableCard fees to charge for only the first card in each device (at $1.10), and confirm the customer owned equipment credits.
I just got my current statement and they did remove the DAO fee but sure enough - they added it back as a line item after removing it.
I just got off the phone with them and had it removed and was promised it wouldn't show up again next month.
So - to summarize, for 2 TiVo Series 3 with 2 CableCards each, Im paying $2.20 - $1.10 per TiVo.
The DAO fees are gone, as are the customer owned equipment credits.
Yes the Customer Owned Equipment credits are gone. I can easily live with this as I think those credits were to offset a bit of those ridiculously nefarious $8 fees.
Its absolutely crazy how many differences in pricing there are around the country and even within the same regions. Good luck to you if you have hours to spend on the phone arguing this billing practice. It worked for me hopefully it will for you too.
And what do I find tonight...? 2 unpaired cards in my 2nd S3. Seems that removing the DAO fee busted my pairing. We just can't win. Gotta call them back and escalate again.
And Comcast is not adhering to those rules, because they do not charge a single, uniform rate to rent a card across their footprint. Yes, the rates are published, but the actual billing that occurs is all over the map - some people get cards for free, some cost $1.50 each. Or $1.10. Some people get customer owned equip credits, some do not. Sometimes A/O fees are applied, sometimes not. Same with 'HD tech fees' even if you don't have their box.
Every other cableCo charges a flat $2-4 or so fee to rent every card, which is exactly what the FCC intended with these rules. Comcast does not, and they are therefore in violation of those rules.
Every other cableCo charges a flat $2-4 or so fee to rent every card, which is exactly what the FCC intended with these rules. Comcast does not, and they are therefore in violation of those rules.
Well no, unless the other cableCo also charges a visible fee to rent every set-top box. If the set-top box is included in the price of a tier the cableCo can't charge an additional fee for the card (it would violate the clause that reads "No service fee shall be imposed on a subscriber for support of a subscriber-provided device that is not assessed on subscriber use of an operator-provided device.") Since Comcast bundles the (first) box with their tiers they must apply a discount from the tier price for a card rather than applying a unique fee for the card.
Just my opinion but I don't think it's an FCC violation for Comcast to fail to charge as much as they should. I think it shows cableCards to be a systemic problem. The CSRs can't do the backend account linking properly to make the cards work, and they can't deal properly with all of the account perturbations (e.g., a customer wants a card with a programming tier that doesn't normally include a set-top box, multiple cards per device vs. multiple devices...) - it's too easy for a CSR to fail to get billing set up correctly, although in my case they've consistently underbilled (I'd be more motivated to help them get it right if they were to overbill).
That is not what it says. You are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts.
When I first got cable in 1973 (fuzzyview in Tallahassee), they charged for each outlet. They stopped doing that at some point. I do not know if it was due to FCC regulations or some other reason. They were not charging for each outlet at the time of the digital conversion. Switching to all digital should not enable them to re-instate the per outlet charge. They pay the content providers per subscriber, not per outlet.
The phone company used to charge for each extension and you had to use their equipment.
That is not what it says. You are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts.
When I first got cable in 1973 (fuzzyview in Tallahassee), they charged for each outlet. They stopped doing that at some point. I do not know if it was due to FCC regulations or some other reason. They were not charging for each outlet at the time of the digital conversion. Switching to all digital should not enable them to re-instate the per outlet charge. They pay the content providers per subscriber, not per outlet.
The phone company used to charge for each extension and you had to use their equipment.
Sigh. So you're saying that Comcast is saying that the first card in every device is free? And you're saying that no other fee should apply for that?
If you just want to stick the coax into the back of your clearQAM TV Comcast doesn't care. If you have an analog TV and want to receive channels 2-99 that you used to get with analog cable (plus a bunch of SD digital channels that your analog TV never could tune), Comcast will let you have for free up to three DTAs so you can watch ex-analog programming to your heart's content. But if you want to watch something that requires a digital set-top box from Comcast they'll charge you for that. If you want to use your device (TiVo, etc.) instead of a Comcast box they'll give you a price break compared to renting the Comcast box.
The equivalent to free additional analog outlets is still there and it's not anything with a CableCard.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? What we are all saying is that FCC regulations REQUIRE them to clearly state what the fee for a CableCARD is. You are the one claiming that the outlet fee is for the CableCARD. They are in fact charging you a fee for the ability to receive all of the channels in your package at more than one outlet. I have never claimed that the fee is illegal or a violation of FCC regulations. Just that is sleazy and unjustified.
If you just want to stick the coax into the back of your clearQAM TV Comcast doesn't care. If you have an analog TV and want to receive channels 2-99 that you used to get with analog cable (plus a bunch of SD digital channels that your analog TV never could tune), Comcast will let you have for free up to three DTAs so you can watch ex-analog programming to your heart's content. But if you want to watch something that requires a digital set-top box from Comcast they'll charge you for that. If you want to use your device (TiVo, etc.) instead of a Comcast box they'll give you a price break compared to renting the Comcast box.
The equivalent to free additional analog outlets is still there and it's not anything with a CableCard.
NO, IT IS NOT THE SAME. GUIDE DATA WAS AVAILABLE FOR THE ANALOG CHANNELS. IT IS STILL AVAILABLE FOR THE EX-ANALOG CHANNELS IF YOU ARE USING A DTA AND A TIVO 2. IT IS NOT AVAILABLE ON A TIVO 3 or 4 W/O A CABLE CARD.
There, was that clear enough for you or are you going to continue to obfuscate and spin what Comcast is doing? BTW, at least here, you get 2 free DTAs, not 3. I'm quite certain you wouldn't even get those if they weren't mandated by the FCC. I suspect Comcast is considering levying a charge for them as soon as the mandate expires later this year.
If you just want to stick the coax into the back of your clearQAM TV Comcast doesn't care. If you have an analog TV and want to receive channels 2-99 that you used to get with analog cable (plus a bunch of SD digital channels that your analog TV never could tune),
First off Comcast does care, which is why they asked for and got a waiver from the FCC to encrypt all channels. There is no clearQAM with Comcast anymore (read my previous post).
Second Comcast is aggressively removing analog channels from all their systems. About 2 years ago they removed all the analog channels except for the basic tier in my area, which is about 20 channels. Last month they removed those, so there are no analog channels anymore. They've done the same in most of their major markets.
So basically sticking a coax cable into the back of your clearQAM TV will get either snow or an error message. If not today where you are, then soon. They've completed the initial phase and they're currently 22% complete with the final phase.
Well no, unless the other cableCo also charges a visible fee to rent every set-top box. If the set-top box is included in the price of a tier the cableCo can't charge an additional fee for the card (it would violate the clause that reads "No service fee shall be imposed on a subscriber for support of a subscriber-provided device that is not assessed on subscriber use of an operator-provided device.") Since Comcast bundles the (first) box with their tiers they must apply a discount from the tier price for a card rather than applying a unique fee for the card.
Here's the pertinent section of the FCC orders that Comcast is violating for you:
( 1 ) CableCARD rental fees shall be priced uniformly throughout a
cable system by such provider without regard to the intended use in
operator-supplied or consumer-owned equipment. No service fee shall be
imposed on a subscriber for support of a subscriber-provided device
that is not assessed on subscriber use of an operator-provided device.
Comcast DOES NOT bill a uniform price across their footprint for each card. For example, lpwcomp's sheet says that extra cards are $1.10 in a device. My sheet says it's $1.50. And that has nothing to do with what is actually billed, the pricing itself is not uniform. Same with the customer credits - some areas get $2.50 per card, some get $2.99. Some get nothing.
They are not complying with this pricing order, no ifs ands or buts. And it's even worse when you get down to the actual billing, which varies by area and by CSR.
Here's the pertinent section of the FCC orders that Comcast is violating for you:
( 1 ) CableCARD rental fees shall be priced uniformly throughout a
cable system by such provider without regard to the intended use in
operator-supplied or consumer-owned equipment. No service fee shall be
imposed on a subscriber for support of a subscriber-provided device
that is not assessed on subscriber use of an operator-provided device.
Comcast DOES NOT bill a uniform price across their footprint for each card. For example, lpwcomp's sheet says that extra cards are $1.10 in a device. My sheet says it's $1.50. And that has nothing to do with what is actually billed, the pricing itself is not uniform. Same with the customer credits - some areas get $2.50 per card, some get $2.99. Some get nothing.
They are not complying with this pricing order, no ifs ands or buts. And it's even worse when you get down to the actual billing, which varies by area and by CSR.
I'll point out that Comcast as a whole is not a cable system, they are a cable company. My cable system is maintained by Comcast of Burlington, which is a "local" entity, even though it's owned by Comcast.
How does the FCC define the term 'cable system'? Locally (e.g. franchise) or nationally? Seems that that's important here. I don't know the answer - but I agree that different Comcast localities have different pricing sheets.
Here's the pertinent section of the FCC orders that Comcast is violating for you:
( 1 ) CableCARD rental fees shall be priced uniformly throughout a
cable system by such provider without regard to the intended use in
operator-supplied or consumer-owned equipment. No service fee shall be
imposed on a subscriber for support of a subscriber-provided device
that is not assessed on subscriber use of an operator-provided device.
I hate to be the one to rain on your parade, but that paragraph is subject to interpretation. "cable system" may refer to the local system rather than than Comcast as a whole. However, they are inconsistent in the application of the charge even within a locality. My main points were that pdhenry's contention that the "additional outlet Fee" was for the CableCARD is bogus and that the "additional outlet fee" is unjustified.
The last sentence of the FCC order is ... interesting. It could be argued that an "operator-provided device" is a DTA, particularly if they start encrypting everything.
Further illumination from the Comcast website (I have emphasized the last sentence so that pdhenry might actually :
How much will I be charged to use a CableCARD?
The first CableCARD in a retail device (e.g., TiVo devices or CableCARD equipped televisions) is free to Comcast customers. If a second CableCARD is needed for the same device (i.e., TiVo Series 3 boxes), the cost is $1.50 per month for the additional card. Again, this ONLY applies to a second CableCARD in the same device.
Will I receive an equipment credit if I bring my own CableCARD compatible retail device?
If you own a CableCARD device (e.g., TiVO or CableCARD equipped television) with an activated CableCARD installed and are subscribing to a Comcast video service that includes equipment as a part of the service, Comcast will begin issuing a monthly Customer Owned Equipment credit to your account.
What this says to me is that the credit only applies if you are using your own equipment in lieu of a Comcast box included in your package. IOW, you should only get this credit if you are not using the included STB. And only 1. By the same token however, even though Comcast calls it a "service", there's no way an a/o actually does meet the definition of a service.
Regardless of how we interpret the FCC rules, the bottom line is that they aren't going to do anything if people don't file complaints about this A/O nonsense. If then. I've done my part and Comcast responded to the FCC saying that they are justified because they charge the same for STBs. I never heard anything from the FCC in response, nor do I expect to.
YMMV.
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