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MRV and TivoToComeBack Works if no cablecards

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by Justin Thyme, Mar 30, 2007.

  1. zalusky

    zalusky Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    What S3 sw version are you running?
     
  2. Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

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    I think Headroll and Moyekj are correct. I shouldn't have the a,a,a flags on my account (Displayed in settings... System info). It must have been that way since I initialized the account. I only got the network rigged properly in the new house (where the S3 is) in the last few weeks, so the DT and the S3 haven't been able to see each other until recently. As I was driving the other day, I flashed on an image of the DT (a series 2 Tivo) folder at the bottom of the S3's list. Like a dolt, I was ignoring its appearance without realizing what it meant. That must have been going on for quite a while. Well- I should have been grinding the scratches out of the Bathroom counter and fixing the locks in the utility closet anyway.

    But I couldn't resist trying some of the new capabilities of the S3. It really is has a remarkably higher resolution playing the same analog shows that I use the DT to record. I think the photos I have posted bear that out. It isn't a small subjective difference that only video nuts quibble about. Anyone with a screen larger than 30 inches should have a unit with S3 display capability, even if they only watch SD analog or digital shows like I do.

    Some administrative error may have happenned when I moved to the S3 my account from an S2 with TivoToGo enabled. Unfortunately, more than one lock had to be left open for me to get full MRV and TivoToGo functionality. The S3 refuses to play and in some cases move (to the PC) any files with TivoGuard on them.

    None of this is even vaguely shady. Since my Tivo does not have Cablecard installed, all of the S3 Tivo shows are legally copiable as is the case with shows recorded on the Series 2.
     
  3. Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

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    Yeah, I thought about that (maybe they shadow dropped me a late beta as is their practice before a new rev). But no. I have the same as everyone else- 8.1.1 -01-2-648

    Besides, if it was in the Sw version and not the flags, they wouldn't have forgotten to allow the TivoGuard access routines to operate normally.
     
  4. zalusky

    zalusky Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    The reason I ask is there was a period of time you could select Allow transfers on "Manage my Tivo -> DVR preferences". During this time that changed the i,i,i to a,a,a.

    Once it was a,a,a I could see my other tivos. Ijust couldnt do the actual transfer.

    Subsequently they saw us talking about and issued a patch to stop that and we changed back to i,i,i.

    However I thought maybe you had disabled upgrades somehow and it stayed at a,a,a.

    I had heard a rumor once about trying to make MRV work for non-cable stuff and even more. Maybe part of that is upon us in this release and you have stumbled into it like I stumbled into the DVR preferences thing.
     
  5. cgould

    cgould Member

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    Hi Justin,
    thanks for sharing this, hope your a,a,a stays for a while-
    I sent you a PM w/ this info and links of test files to download.

    Could you do a BIG favor, and try downloading the PM'd HDV MPEG2 files to your PC, putting them into your transfer folder, and see if they transfer and play back fine?
    You mentioned hi-res MPG files worked, but these are specifically the HD MPG2 format I am interested in.

    They are HDV-format files from my Canon HV10 HD camcorder, and I am EAGERLY hoping I can transfer and view my Hi-Def videos on the S3 once the TTCB feature works... I noted you wanted to try some as well.

    Let me know if you have any problems/questions via email/PM.

    Thank you so much!!
     
  6. morac

    morac Cat God

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    NJ
    This is without a doubt an error on TiVo's part.

    The reason MRV and ToGo and other .tivo files don't work is very likely because the S3 is not part of the authorized group of TiVos so the S3 doesn't have the decryption keys needed to view the encrypted files. Unencrypted files don't have this issue.

    With that out of the way. I'm curious as to why everyone just assumes that the S3 can play video formats other than MPEG2 natively. Sure it has the hardware to do so, but without corresponding software it doesn't make a difference.
     
  7. cramer

    cramer New Member

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    Raleigh,...
    If you believe Tivo, the S3 cannot support MRV/TTG because the code to support it physically isn't there. They removed it -- as opposed to disabling it -- to get CableLabs certification. The reason unscrambled, "simple" MPEG-2's work (when accidentally enabled) is because that's TivoCast.

    (If anyone were to actually watch what goes on behind the blue LED, it's just straight HTTP transfer of an mpg file. In fact, the url will work in WMP, once you know what the url is. Before you get any ideas, 99% of what controlls TivoCast is HTTPS and therefore difficult to intercept.)
     
  8. Carsten

    Carsten New Member

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    Not to forget that the onboard CPU isnt powerfull enough to encode/decode Divx/vxid/etc codec on the fly. The only reason it can work w/ MPEG2 is becuase it has an onboard decoder/encoder chip.
     
  9. cgould

    cgould Member

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    I thought the decoder chip (acc to Tivolover's FAQ top this thread)was capable of more formats than that: (MPEG-4 AVC/H.264, and VC-1/WMV9 etc), but agreed the onboard existing software might not be able to handle that yet;
    however at least for my specific interest, most HD camcorders use HD-res MPEG2 files, MP@H-14/4:2:0, which should be very similar to the HDTV broadcast MPG2 (slightly different res, higher bandwidth 25mbps not 7-19 etc)
     
  10. morac

    morac Cat God

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    NJ
    While the results of TiVoCast is the same, comeback does not use the same methods as TiVoCast. Comeback uses the same protocols as ToGo (just in reverse). I'm inclined to believe MRV/TTG is there, but disabled (ie: i,i,i) as it makes no sense from a programmer's standpoint to rip out all the code when it is very simple on their end to disable it.

    The fact that Justin Thyme can do anything transfer related now that his S3 is listing as "a,a,a" is pretty much proof of that.

    Simply not giving the S3 a MAK would be enough to disable it. It's basically the same as if you took 2 TiVos on two different accounts and put them on the same network. They wouldn't talk to each other because they aren't authorized to.
     
  11. Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

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    Well, I put them on an external drive and will trot over to the other house with them in a bit, but just looking at them, the dimensions seemed a little odd. I was expecting 720p's 1280x720, or 1080i's 1920x1080. Your camcorder is spitting out 1440 x 1088. I don't recall what my HD camcorder puts out, but it isn't this.

    I'll give it a whirl, but I am not optimistic.

    Hey codec motorheads in the audience- what's your guess here on what Tivo would support? Anyone know what the Cable on wire mpegs being sent as? I'll bet that's what will work if it doesn't eat this or the 720p/1080i dimensions.

    Or hey, if TivoStephen or TivoJerry would like to drop a hint here, that would be nice.
     
  12. Redux

    Redux No intent to annoy

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    My guess is that they are very busy seeing to it that the hole you have brought to their attention is plugged.
     
  13. btwyx

    btwyx Substantive Member

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    Mountain...
    Why not do it with a media access key? Manage my account tells me mine, but there's not a lot I can do with it.
     
  14. cgould

    cgould Member

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    Bay Area, CA

    HDV format true tape-recorded res is always 1440x1080, (well for 1080i not 720)... it is re-scaled up to 1920 on camera outputs, and often in editors.
    If you have a harddisk-based or non-HDV camera (eg AVCHD?) , it might record full 1920. Note that AVCHD is MPEG4 compression so I doubt it would work.
    Hopefully the tivo would accept whatever res/pixel size, as you seem to have shown earlier for various sized SD MPEG files.
    Thanks much for your help, and hope your camcorder files work too.
     
  15. moyekj

    moyekj Well-Known Member

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    Mission...
    Digital cable transmissions (and ATSC OTA transmissions) are all mpeg2 transport streams. The HD variety are the usual 720p (1280x720, 60fps) or 1080i (1920x1080, 30fps) transmissions, the SD digital resolutions can vary but are also mpeg2 transport streams. For sure the S3 can decode those.
     
  16. Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

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    No, mine is one of those small Sony Hidef cameras. Forget the model number, but it was the small one that bestbuy used to sell last summer.

    Those odd dimenstions I mentioned actually are defined by a standard for accepted DVD mpeg resolutions. They correspond to fixed settings inside the Tivo- I forget the nomenclature, but resolution 0 was 720x480, 1 was 544x480, 2 was 480x480 and so on.

    Anyway, woohoo my speculations didn't matter. The transfer worked but there were hitches. The fly one xferred ok. I could play it, but if I hit pause, rewind, the system would freeze requiring reboot. It also had some major blockey artifacts in the middle like what you see when rain interupts a satellite transmission. This fly one was super super short, so perhaps that was part of the freeze bug.

    The chinese drum one runs fine, looks great. Does not crash Tivo playing in in 720p forced. Playing it with Video set to "Native", the S3 set the output to 1080i. When I hit pause rewind, it froze Tivo requiring reboot.

    Resolution was great, but there were the same blocky artifacts.

    Here are some images. Everyone has seen Hidef on the S3, so no big deal here- it's sharp, it's pretty. Only difference is it came from your camcorder.

    [​IMG]
    Yeah, it is really on an S3.
    [​IMG]

    Thanks moyekj for confirming my speculations on those dimenstions. I used graphedit in a quick and dirty attempt to transcode them to 1280x720, and 1920x1080, but my mpeg encoder (moonlight standard) would not accept widths that large. I have something around here I used on the Hidef files- hopefully it was not a trial and I can do some more test files in other resolutions to see how gnarly this "blockiness during zoom" bug is. Just for fun, I tried moonlights H264 encoder, which allowed the dimension but S3 wouldn't play it.
     
  17. CrispyCritter

    CrispyCritter Purple Ribbon Wearer

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    North...
    Removal of code is a strong claim that I have seen no evidence for, and lots of evidence against. Where did TiVo ever say they did that? I certainly believe they need more code in order to get everything to work (eg, different code to send an MRV S2 show to their hardware decrypter that's different on an S3 than an S2). But could you please substantiate your claim that TiVo said they had to remove code to get CableLabs certification?
     
  18. wmcbrine

    wmcbrine Ziphead

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    The old HR10-250 has no problem with DirecTV's 1280x1080i. I wouldn't expect a problem with the width. As for the height, 1088 is actually common on "1080i" channels, too. It's something about being divisible by 16... and the last 8 lines are set to not display... I think.
     
  19. cgould

    cgould Member

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    Thanks so much Justin! Great screenshots- as sharp as the original HD- thanks!

    The files are MPG2 converted from M2T (transport stream) so they're not fully native HDV files, but they otherwise weren't rendered much and don't have any glitches in them on playback (eg in VLC on the PC), so strange about the big blocks/artifacts in the middle. Do they play OK on your computer, or show the same artifacts? perhaps something glitched during up/download.

    Yes the fly one is super short, just a few seconds, and the chinese charm one under 10sec also... HD file sizes are too much for the internet :(
    I have another nice one of flower closeups, 1:37, but it's 300MB, same converted M2T->MPG2. PM me for the URL if you want to try it.
    I could try to get some M2T files, but not sure I have space to upload... I can't edit those w/o transcoding and they're bigger.

    Meanwhile at least the "HD PC->S3 files transfer+playback" concept has been proven, it's possible, and I'll wait happily for the real thing to happen soon I hope w/ any issues resolved. (hint beta test volunteer ;) ) This would definitely be great to compete w/ AppleTV, as they don't have much HD content available/usable... and I won't have to muck with HD switchers or other media extenders :)
     
  20. Mike Farrington

    Mike Farrington Active Member

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    I'm just wondering how you got the (a,a,a). Did you transfer lifetime from a S2, whereas most everyone transferred from a S1? We all know about the "name swapping". If you transferred lifetime from an S2, perhaps the (a,a,a) transferred with it.
     

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