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Moca bandwidth too low errors - help

Discussion in 'TiVo Help Center' started by marklyn, Jun 2, 2014.

  1. Jun 2, 2014 #1 of 32
    marklyn

    marklyn New Member

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    Jan 21, 2002
    Austin
    A couple of days ago I had TWC at my home for 2 hours fixing an internet problem. Short story, he honestly did a good job and got my internet cleaned up nicely by replacing faulty coax ends and one 2 way splitter that appeared to be losing tons of signal.
    Before he left there was a little pixelation on one of my channels that I usually watch and the signal level for that channel was 66%, not good.
    He took another look in the attic and decided the best thing to do was to install an 8 way splitter/amp. So he did and all of my signals are now very high 90's and SNR on any given channel is low 40's.
    Everything on the Roamio plays well, no problems whatsoever, however I'm now seeing my mini's being problematic with C133 or V87 (disconnect) errors.
    I'm also seeing in the network status on the Roamio where there are Moca bandwidth too low errors.

    Here's what I know. Before the splitter/amp was put in, the signals to my minis never failed, they were solid. Each mini and the Roamio have their own IP assigned. I'm using Moca (obviously). Ethernet connection to my Roamio (wired).

    He placed a POE filter on the coax input to the amp and he placed another POE filter on the output to the modem but I wouldn't see how that would be related to my issue. The Roamio and 2 mini's I have are connected to the other part of the splitter.
    The only thing I've noticed that's different is that the SNR is now generally very low 40's, occasional 39 here and there.

    I'd appreciate some diagnostic advice. I don't understand what I'm looking at when I look at the TX and RX levels on the mini or the Roamio but sometimes I'm seeing a 'reset modem' in the errors. I guess I don't know what levels I need to look for on the mini's vs Roamio to know what's going on.
     
  2. Jun 2, 2014 #2 of 32
    BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Active Member

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    Mar 21, 2004
    Might be easier to resolve if the amp came before the splitter rather than using an amped splitter. Do you happen to know what frequency the amp is rated for (probably 1 GHz)?

    The low-hanging fruit would be to try to lower the moca channel in Settings and see what happens. If it's on Auto, tune it to the lowest one.
     
  3. Jun 2, 2014 #3 of 32
    lgnad

    lgnad Pantless Mofo

    691
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    Feb 14, 2013
    Massachusetts
    What is the make/model of the amp?

    What are the spec's on the amp as far as frequency range? It may be attenuating the higher frequencies that Moca uses.

    Is the amp spec'd for bi-directional signals? Again, it might be attenuating the signal.
     
  4. Jun 2, 2014 #4 of 32
    lessd

    lessd Active Member

    7,695
    5
    Jan 23, 2005
    CT
    This cable amp works great with MoCA, have it installed in four home using MoCA. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006ZOUR5S/ref=oh_details_o07_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    Good luck
     
  5. Jun 2, 2014 #5 of 32
    marklyn

    marklyn New Member

    448
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    Jan 21, 2002
    Austin
    Not familiar with lowering the moca channel. I see that all of my moca channels (on mini's and Roamio) is set to 15. Should I set them all to something lower?

    I also see the Tx level on the Roamio seems to be low around 60-70 where the RX level is high.

    The amp is made by ppc, model EV01-5-u/u, see attached pic. The installer was very familiar with Moca and POE filters and issues surrounding Moca so I felt like he was giving me an amp that he knew would work. He said he's used this amp in situations before.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Jun 3, 2014 #6 of 32
    telemark

    telemark New Member

    1,544
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    Nov 12, 2013
  7. Jun 3, 2014 #7 of 32
    lgnad

    lgnad Pantless Mofo

    691
    0
    Feb 14, 2013
    Massachusetts
    Moca 1.1 (What the tivo uses) operates in the 500 to 1650mhz range.... so channel 15 is at the high end of the range and so it may be being attenuated being so far outside the spec of your amp. Drop it down, but if you make it too low it might collide with what is already on your wire, so try something in the low middle and see how it responds...

    I was tempted to comment that you might want to connect the cable if you want it to work (looking at your example picture) :D
     
  8. Jun 3, 2014 #8 of 32
    marklyn

    marklyn New Member

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    Jan 21, 2002
    Austin
    I've attached an updated photo of what cabling goes where. I don't understand what you're saying about active ports, are you referring to something on the amp? And why did you ask about the 3rd one from the left?
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Jun 3, 2014 #9 of 32
    marklyn

    marklyn New Member

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    Jan 21, 2002
    Austin
    Do I change the moca channel on all of the devices, mini's and Roamio, or when you change it on the Roamio, does it automatically change it on the mini's?
     
  10. BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Active Member

    2,779
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    Mar 21, 2004
    The Minis may or may not be set to Auto, but putting them on the same channel as the Roamio can't hurt. It's probably best while you're at it anyway.
     
  11. telemark

    telemark New Member

    1,544
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    Nov 12, 2013
    The active ports are the 4 on the right. The 3 on the left do other things, so the Tivo's should not have been plugged into those.

    It looks correct to me, unless there's some additional splitters down those lines? Are the lines particularly long?

    I'll second, take the channel down a couple notches, see if it improves. Then take it down a couple more notches, see if it improves.

    If the frequency adjustment doesn't help, you can replace the amp, or add your own splitters back in.
     
  12. marklyn

    marklyn New Member

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    Jan 21, 2002
    Austin
    The lines are around 65-70' to the TA/Roamio and maybe 40' to the mini's. There is no coax split to the Tuning Adapter which feeds into the Roamio. (I was thinking, since I have a dual run to that location, about using one coax for the TA and one for the Roamio) since I have an extra port open on the amp.

    I hesitate in adding my own splitters back since that was in place when the signal was around 65-75 on some channels and resulted in some pixelation. The amp has certainly cleared that up well.
     
  13. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    What I underlined in the quote is likely the problem, or a big part of a larger problem.

    Tuning Adapters can not pass through MoCA frequencies, Cisco ones tend to malfunction if a PoE filter isn't used to keep the MOCA out. Motorola ones seem to be immune to MoCA-induced malfunctions, but should still be on a split, not pass-through method.

    The correct configuration, when MoCA is in use, is to split, put a PoE filter on one leg and connect it to the TA, then connect the other leg directly into the TiVo.

    Trust me on this. It should be the first thing you do. At least make sure to split before the TA, rather than pass-through it to your Roamio. The PoE filter for keeping MoCA out of the TA can come later, if you don't have one on hand. The splitter alone should make a major improvement.

    I usually put a coax terminator on the output port of the TA, to avoid signal ingress/egress, but I've never seen anybody else say they do the same.

    TiVo's guide/diagram for installing Tuning Adapters is the exact opposite of correct, once MoCA is involved.
     
  14. BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Active Member

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    Mar 21, 2004
    Oh wait... do you have the RF-out of the Tuning Adapter going to the Roamio? That can kill moca too. Don't use the RF-out on the TA. If you have a dual run to that location, do put one leg going to the TA, the other to the Roamio.

    Edit: What nooneuknow said.

    See what that does.
     
  15. marklyn

    marklyn New Member

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    Jan 21, 2002
    Austin
    OK, can do. But, in the beginning when I got the Roamio and TA (several months ago now), I had it set up that way: 1 splitter in the AV cabinet with one going to TA and one to Roamio but there was occasional pixelation on some channels; however, the MoCa to the mini's seemed to work with no hiccups. When I went direct to TA and out to Roamio the signals improved and pixelation went away. My recent moca problems appeared only after the amp was installed, so I've never had moca issues in my current coax configuration.
    That being said, I'm willing to try using that extra unused port on the amp and go straight to the Roamio and leave the one already connected to the TA. This means I won't need a moca filter on the TA since I already have one between the amp and my cable modem, right?

    Aside from the obvious hope of eliminating the "moca bandwidth too low" errors, can I monitor the TX/RX on the Roamio to my minis? Are there certain numbers I need to watch for for either TX or RX? Also, should I be streaming something to a mini if these numbers are important to note?
     
  16. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    You should have a split with a PoE filter per Tuning Adapter in the house, in addition to the one at the actual "Point of Entry", and in addition to if you are using one to keep MoCA out of your cable modem.

    PoE filters can be used to block MoCA from getting past any segment it needs to be on. They don't absorb it. They reflect the signals back. This effect can improve reliability and performance, by isolating the MoCA to only where it needs to get to/needs to be. Any device that doesn't have a built-in MoCA filter can malfunction when MoCA frequencies are present, and allowed in.

    I checked back to your original post. You have the Cisco TA that does not play well with MoCA (can't pass it through, and tends to malfunction if not filtered).

    If you had Cox, instead of Time Warner, you'd be issued a "self install kit", for each Tuning Adapter, which would include a 5-1002 MHz splitter, a PoE filter, additional cables, and instructions/diagrams showing the splitter with the PoE filter on one leg, with that leg going to the TA, and the other leg to the TiVo.

    Interestingly enough, Cox doesn't bother to tell you that there should be a PoE filter at the Point of Entry, or ask if you have one, and leaves it to you to know you need that one, acquire it, and install it.
     
  17. telemark

    telemark New Member

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    Nov 12, 2013
    Not disagreeing with the TA comments, but in addition, the TA is a return channel device. It should have been put on a cable modem port.

    The cable modem port is already occupied by the cable modem. You could split that port after you switch to a dual run.

    I'm not saying to do it or not, I'll let others chime in with more experience. But if you discover you have TA problems, at some point, this would be relevant to that.

    Is the cable modem and TA close enough that you could plug the cable modem into the TA?
     
  18. BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Active Member

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    Mar 21, 2004
    Yeah, you can check PHY rates to/from all moca devices in the Roamio's network settings. The general rule of thumb is anything over a PHY rate of 200 is solid. Tivo says 180 for their purposes which is probably fine, but I like 200+ because I'm a stickler.
     
  19. marklyn

    marklyn New Member

    448
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    Jan 21, 2002
    Austin
    Should I check all of the rates from the Roamio and jot them down as I try different things or do I need to check them on each device as they're streaming? I'm not really clear on this part.

    Oh duh. I just re-read your post and you did say to check them all from Roamio, still, do I need to have something streaming to one of the mini's at the time I'm checking the rates on the Roamio?
     
  20. marklyn

    marklyn New Member

    448
    0
    Jan 21, 2002
    Austin
    OK, so connected up the additional unused coax to the amp --> Roamio, so now I have 1 coax from amp to Roamio and 1 coax from amp --> tuning adapter.
    Then I took the POE filter off of the modem coax line and moved it to the tuning adapter input coax (My SB6141 has POE built in so I didn't need it).
    Now all of my moca levels are in the 280's on all of my minis!!!

    Thanks everyone for great suggestions and help!!!
     

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