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MOCA and POE Filter

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by dave13077, Mar 3, 2013.

MOCA and POE Filter

  1. Yes there is a POE filter installed

    62 vote(s)
    63.9%
  2. No there is not a POE filter installed

    35 vote(s)
    36.1%
  1. NoVa

    NoVa Member

    154
    0
    Feb 26, 2006
    NoVa
    I just installed a POE filter @ the patch panel between where the main Comcast cable feed enters into the splitter.

    How do I see if there are any throughput effects?
    How can I tell that if there are any signal leakage?
    I have Comcast expanded basic package HD, will this "open" up more channels than I subscribed for?
     
  2. lessd

    lessd Active Member

    7,695
    5
    Jan 23, 2005
    CT
    This filter is not a cable cheater, as to working, look at my post above (#40) as that the only way I know of testing a POE filter.
     
  3. MikeAndrews

    MikeAndrews Registered abuser

    14,222
    1
    Jan 17, 2002
    Northern...
    FYI, the Actiontec MOCA adapters that Tivo sells for the best price I found, have the config switch. TiVo doesn't supply any information on it - wanting it to be plug and play and it is - but you can download full instructions from the Actiontec web site.

    http://www.actiontec.com/products/product.php?pid=251#soft

    I didn't see a reason to change anything.
     
  4. supasta

    supasta New Member

    2,976
    0
    May 6, 2006
    Colorado
    Thanks to this thread, I purchased a POE filter on eBay and installed it today.

    The funny thing was that when I opened the box to install it, there was a POC filter connected to an open output on the splitter. It wasn't connected to anything. My first thought was, 'Damn, wasted $8.' However, it turned out to have stripped threads and appeared that someone previously tried to get it off and couldn't. So, no harm done.
     
  5. morac

    morac Cat God

    8,933
    19
    Mar 14, 2003
    NJ
    I had bought a POE, but never installed it. Last time Comcast came out a few months ago, they installed their own POE. They told me they are doing that for all calls whether the customer has MoCa or not in preparation for supporting their "whole home" platform.

    I saw no change with it installed as to without it. I have my MoCa devices set up with their own encryption. Quick fact, all MoCa is encrypted, it's just that non-configurable MoCa adapters (and TiVo) all use the same default encryption key.
     
  6. Johncv

    Johncv Active Member

    1,545
    1
    Jun 11, 2002
    Chula Vista, CA
    We had Cox install one and then tag the line on the telephone pole so it would not be remove. Took some persuasion to have it done.
     
  7. k2ue

    k2ue Retired RF Engineer

    653
    0
    May 9, 2002
    Victor, NY
    Ahead of the 4-way splitter would be optimal -- it will keep the MOCA signal out of your Cable Modem, which does not expect it to be present.
     
  8. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
    0
    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    Good old (or new, depending on how you look at it) Cox in Las Vegas wouldn't give even one up, when I spotted them on a van rack, just before the TA requirement letter came. I was told that the orders were clear and he wouldn't dare defy them. They were for people who had Cox's Whole Home DVR ONLY. He didn't even know what they were, so he let me examine one and I told him what it was. I still couldn't have one.

    After picking up six TAs and six self-install kits, there they were, in each self-install kit, identical item, identical frequency specs.

    Since I don't use MOCA, I just left them out, while also ignoring the Cox illustration, and not using the splitter, either. The only part in the kit I used was the VERY nice RG6 coax cable. The TAs each came with a RG59 junk cable (you'd think Cisco would know better).

    Here's what I don't understand: If all the splitters (including those in the self-install kits, and what I have in use) are rated for 5-1002MHz, why would MOCA pass through any of them? If it can, then I see a reason to put one POE filter at Point Of Entry, and maybe one on the Cable Modem, (even though it should have it's own pass/reject filter, built-in) just to be sure. If the MOCA signals from a neighbor can't pass into my home, due to the splitters, then is there ANY reason to use them at all? Or can MOCA still get through?

    I'm well past the date the TAs needed to be installed now, and they still say they aren't doing anything, or receiving anything other than an "empty" channel map. I can disconnect the USB cable, and still get all my channels, even those that show up as H.264. I haven't yet tried taking one back out, just to see if the 903000MHz H.264 channels quit working. They are the channels that have been reported to be H.264, lost by some, who say they are in a non-TA-deployed market.

    One thing I HAVE noticed, since installing the TAs, is my cable modem registering lots of correctable errors, on the downstreams. While the signal levels and SNR for each band haven't changed outside their normal fluctuation, I only used to see an occasional correctable error, here and there, over MONTHS of uptime. Now they start ticking up as soon as the modem has rebooted and bonded channel bands. I don't see a POE filter helping, unless the TAs are leaking something into the signal, and the CM is having to deal with it. Installing the TA's, minus additional splitters and POE filters, is the ONLY change I made to my cable infrastructure inside my home. Signal levels & SNR at each connected device are within ~1dB, or ~1 on the TiVo 0-100 strength scale (within the range they were at before the TAs went in, to be more specific). Yet, while I see less rapid fluctuation since the TAs went in, the actual recordings I've been watching are worse than ever.
     
  9. MikeAndrews

    MikeAndrews Registered abuser

    14,222
    1
    Jan 17, 2002
    Northern...
    I think MoCa can run in several bands - some below 1000MHz.

    [​IMG]

    The ActionTec ECB2500C that I got from TiVo would not work on the 1000MHz splitter, but it does on the 1200MHz splitter.

    http://www.actiontec.com/products/product.php?pid=251

    Notice that they have Cable (C) and Satellite (B) versions. I expect the difference is the bands MoCa is on. Obviously, they set them up not to interfere with the TV service.

    If I can't get the third node to work in the very farthest part of the house that is the original mission I may send the ActionTec MoCa back to TiVo. I'm waiting for an 8-port splitter that should get here tomorrow. i'll use that try some RF terminators.

    Oh, great. ActionTec just announced a MoCa/WiFi product to fix the very problem I'm working on: http://online.wsj.com/article/PR-CO-20130626-909089.html
     
  10. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
    0
    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    Well, the ANTRONIX GLF-1002B1 filters I received with the Self-Install kits have these specs: Reject Band: 1125-3000MHz, Pass Band: 5-1002MHz.

    While I was aware of what you posted, thanks for the effort, in trying to help.

    The way I see it, these filters should basically do the same as a 5-1002Mhz splitter. Then again, if that were the case, why would the kit contain a 5-1002MHz splitter and a POE filter, that is supposed to be placed on the output leg going to the TA? If they ASSUME you have MOCA and/or ASSUME you have a Cox Whole Home DVR, using MOCA, why would the splitter and POE filter ratings be what they are?

    It's my understanding that if you use MOCA, each splitter, pass-through type device, and amp or attenuator, MUST include the MOCA frequencies in it's operation (Pass Band) specs. Am I wrong?

    EDIT/ADD: It was always my understanding that the cable/satellite companies don't use the same frequency band(s) that Consumer Grade Retail MOCA networking does. I think it might have even been a requirement, of some sort. It's my understanding that the Cable/Satellite companies may do this so that their MOCA can pass-through existing splitters and network infrastructure (if it can already pass, then nothing needs to be changed). That's a scenario where I could see MOCA wreaking havoc on a consumer's other equipment, if not isolated. But, the POE filters I have received seem to serve only one purpose, keeping consumer MOCA out of THEIR equipment/infrastructure. Thus, since I use MOCA of no form whatsoever, I shouldn't technically/hypothetically need them at all.

    The way I see it, the less unnecessary connection points, splitters, pass-thru devices, and pass/reject devices, the better. This means less potential signal drops, SNR effects, bad connections, bad devices, etc. (potential points of failure and/or ingress/egress).

    Cox here has one hell of a frequency map on their 1GHz network. Cablecards operate at 73750MHz, but there are cable channels that operate as low as ~54MHz, with quite a few I watch at 69HMz (and they work POORLY). Then there's the H.264 channels that operate at 903MHz, which is above the Cable Modem downstream ranges. Before they started the H.264, ALL channels operated BELOW Cable Modem downstream frequencies.

    It's like they just mishmash things together, without any thought of how it may affect the consumer. They need to get their mappings more "zoned". IMHO, too many channels are operating in wherever they could find a place, rather than create a healthy buffer zone between CM, CC, MOCA, and TV frequencies, and keep some consistency in it.
     
  11. morac

    morac Cat God

    8,933
    19
    Mar 14, 2003
    NJ
    It can (for example for FIOS users), but MoCa was designed to power it's way through splitters, though if there are a significant number of them, eventually the MoCa signal will degrade enough that it won't be able to get through. That's why it's suggested to use a POE filter at the "point of entry" to keep the signals in your home so your neighbors can't get on your network. Though changing the encryption key (if possible) works as well.
     
  12. MikeAndrews

    MikeAndrews Registered abuser

    14,222
    1
    Jan 17, 2002
    Northern...
    I don't get why they would supply that 5-1002Mhz splitter unless their MoCA uses frequencies below 1002MHz.

    Oh. Are you saying that is the "edge" splitter and they have another with a higher bandpass for the interior network?

    I'm saying that I couldn't get the ActionTec MoCA to work over the 02-1000MHz splitter, with the -1500MHz splitter it does.

    Funny that there's no mention of this in manuals. I wonder how many mere mortal TiVo subs give up because MoCA nodes, gateways, and the TiVo won't connect.

    You give me some more inspiration though. If I still have trouble when I go back to hack I'll try removing the PoE to see if that helps.
     
  13. morac

    morac Cat God

    8,933
    19
    Mar 14, 2003
    NJ
    I suggest reading the following presentation on MoCa by the MoCa Alliance. Yes, it's a marketing presentation, but it has a lot of technical info in it.

    http://www.mocalliance.org/CEDIA/presentations/MoCA_CEDIA_Presentation.pdf

    Page 24 talks about bands. D is usually used when using MoCa with cable TV to prevent conflicting with the cable signal. A or B is used with satellite and C is used with FIOS.

    Page 29 through 36 talk about POEs and setup and pages 17 and 18 talk about splitters. Really though if you are interested in how MoCa works you should read the whole thing.


    My MoCa setup uses D with 1 Ghz splitters and works fine. Some people even have it working with 850 MHz splitters.

    The thing about splitters is that they don't block all signals outside their rated frequency, they just have a high impedance for those signals, making it harder to get through. A strong signal or one that's designed to work over a high impedance line, like MoCa, can still make it through.
     
  14. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

    3,554
    0
    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    If what you are asking is if the two legs of the splitter have different ratings, the answer is no. They are just plain old everyday splitters, with -3.5dB drop on each leg.
     
  15. ShayL

    ShayL Member

    211
    0
    Jul 17, 2007
    Dallas, TX
    morac,

    Good link and summary. FIOS uses both WAN and LAN MOCA connections. The C band should be for their WAN installs. Some of their installs use cat5. FIOS also uses LAN MOCA connection for their STBs.
     
  16. stack

    stack New Member

    17
    0
    Aug 19, 2013
    Hi guys,

    I am new to the world of Tivo and would appreciate any help I could get. I just moved to a new place that has the house basically wired with Cat5 that comes to a patch panel in the master bedroom closet.

    I just switched from DirecTV to Cox since I don't have a clear path.

    I ran into one problem when I tested all of the panels, the one in the living room downstairs where the main TV would go does not work. So I decided to put the main Tivo Box in the master bedroom and move the Mini Downstairs and use MoCa to get that one singnal since I can't use the network panel there.

    So here is the setup I have now, can you please let me know where I would have to put the POE filter to make it all work.

    Main Patch panel area has the main cable line coming in. It then goes into a three way splitter. That splitter feeds the modem, the living room panel, and the master bedroom.

    In the master bedroom the cable is coming from the wall going into the tuning adapter. Then I have another coax coming from the tuning adapter into the TiVo and of course the USB connected.

    I read through everything and I am getting mixed readings on where to put the POE so it doesn't effect the modem etc.

    I was thinking I should only have to put the POE on the branch of the main 3 way splitter to the one that is sending signal to the master bedroom. Is this correct?

    Thank you in advance for all your help.
     
  17. morac

    morac Cat God

    8,933
    19
    Mar 14, 2003
    NJ
    Normally the POE is put right before the very first splitter coming into the house. It can be placed before any splitter in your house as long as all your MoCa devices are somewhere down the line of the legs of those splitters. Basically a POE blocks and reflects MoCa signals, so it needs to be placed such that it won't block the signals in your house. That's why placing it in front of the first splitter is easiest.
     
  18. CoxInPHX

    CoxInPHX COX Communications

    2,349
    6
    Jan 14, 2011
    Phoenix, AZ
    The Cox Tuning Adapter instructions are questionable, as Cox shows putting a POE Filter in-front of the Tuning Adapter, That is probably not needed, but it certainly cannot hurt anything.

    Cox is using the frequency spectrum all the way up to 950MHz for the H.264/MPEG-4 channels.
    So when using the built in MoCA on the TiVo it is best to use a splitter before the Tuning Adapter, as shown in their documentation, The Cisco Tuning Adapter will not pass MoCA signals.

    Cox - Cisco Tuning Adapter Installation

    Cox - Motorola Tuning Adapter Installation
     
  19. aztivo

    aztivo Member

    399
    0
    Feb 23, 2005
    AZ
    Good to know I need to go get one from them
     
  20. jevans14

    jevans14 New Member

    10
    0
    Feb 14, 2003
    I would like to install the POE filter at the outside cable point of entry but the trouble is I cannot figure out how to open the cable box (made by Comcast). Is there some sort of trick to opening this thing? Very hard plastic cover that no matter how hard I try to press on each side it refuses to open. Or is calling Comcast the only way to get it open? Thanks.
     

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