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Lost - "The End" 5/23 series finale (spoilers)

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by jkeegan, May 23, 2010.

  1. jkeegan

    jkeegan New Member

    Oct 16, 2000
    Yeah but Richard certainly thought he was a real person at that point (Locke in fact, not MiB), otherwise he certainly wouldn't have let him in! :)
  2. sushikitten

    sushikitten 143 down, ??? to go! TCF Club

    Jan 27, 2005
    DC-ish Suburbia
    One thing I think a lot of people couldn't wrap their heads around (as it wasn't specifically ever answered) was what would happen if/when MIB got off the island. How would the world end? What did they mean?

    This bit from from the Lost finale recap at EW made sense to me - although who knows if it's the case...

  3. BitbyBlit

    BitbyBlit .

    Aug 25, 2001
    They come, they fight, they destroy, and they corrupt. But they weren't the only flawed beings.

    Mother Protector was lonely. So lonely that she was willing to kill to have children to raise as her own. Two, she was glad to have, because that meant they would never be alone like her.

    But for all her wanting of them to have each other, Mother Protector didn't want them to have anyone else, nor did she want them to leave for fear of being alone again herself. And thus, while they were not completely alone, Jacob and MIB were still raised in a lonely life.

    But then Mother Protector's worst fear began to come to fruition; MIB wanted to leave. He was still on the island, however, and she knew Jacob could still sneak off and hang out with him, so that left her some comfort. But when MIB found a way to leave, that meant that Jacob, like her, would be alone when he became Protector.

    In order to stop her worst fear from being realized, she destroyed the village, and buried MIB's only means of escape. In a rage from being denied what he most wanted, MIB killed Mother Protector. And Jacob, in anger, responded by doing the one thing Mother Protector warned him never to do; he threw MIB into the Cave of Light.

    The Cave of Light was the source of life. Not life in just the sense of being alive, but rather life as the cycle of birth and death. This cave wasn't just a metaphysical place, however. The Dharma Initiative, Miles, and Desmond were all evidence that this life force had a very real interaction with the world.

    The Cave of Light kept the balance of Life and Anti-Life. From nothingness (at least from the perspective of the physical world), Life and Anti-Life split apart. Anti-Life formed below the plug, while Life was released into the world to become a part of human beings (and other living things).

    When people died, their Life would be released, and return to the island to eventually combine back with Anti-Life, and disappear from the physical world. Part of Life being grounded in a physical body was also being grounded in space-time. But when people's Life left their bodies, they were no longer grounded. They needed something else to ground their existences: their Constants. The whispers on the island were the result of the Life of those who had not yet been grounded interacting with the physical world. It was not necessarily an intentional interaction, but could have been more of just a side effect.

    Although Life for the most part remained hidden from the physical world, there were still some connections. At the source where it was the most focused, the Dharma Initiative was able to harness it to perform experiments that involved warping space and time. Miles was able to sense the "footprints" left behind when Life left people's bodies, and was thus able to "talk" to an echo of who the person was. And Desmond had his Life dislodged before he died.

    But the most direct interaction we saw of Life with the physical world was Smokey, who was created when Jacob threw MIB into the Cave of Light. Normally Life is grounded before going into the cave to interact with Anti-Life, disappearing from our world. But when Jacob threw MIB into the cave, not only was he still alive, but not at peace.

    New Life when it leaves the cave is like a collection of stem cells. It goes into a new body, and forms itself based on the person's experiences. A person's body is like a cocoon, protecting and nurturing the Life until it is ready to move on. But when MIB was thrown into the cave, he corrupted much of the new Life that was being released, turning it into a new pure-Life being full of anger and desire to leave the island.

    This pure-Life being was not completely immortal, however. Although it could not be killed by normal means, its Life slowly made its way back to the cave to interact with the Anti-Life, and disappear. Thus, to replenish its "cells", it attacked others, and absorbed their Life. If released into the world, it had the potential to corrupt all Life.

    So now Jacob had to not only protect the Cave of Light, but also make sure that Smokey could never leave. This was easy as long as he was alive, but this left only one natural conclusion: Smokey would try to find a way to kill him. Jacob finally realized this with Richard, and decided that he needed to find a replacement.

    But although Jacob was one step ahead of his mother in wanting to give his replacement free will, he picked people whom he could relate to, those who were loners like him. He started with Richard, who was a very lonely person, having no more connections in life, and began to build a group of followers to help him achieve his goal. Unfortunately, however, not only did he not pick the best groups of people to work together, he made matters even worse by nurturing them the only way he knew how, by ordering them around and expecting unquestioning obedience in the same manner as his mother had raised him.

    They come, they fight, they destroy, and they corrupt. But it only ends once.

    Oceanic Flight 815 crashed on the island, bringing Jacob's latest group of candidates. They, like Jacob, were loners who preferred a minimum of working and communicating with each other.

    Perhaps it was the extra weirdness they had to deal with in being used as part of Smokey's plan to kill Jacob. Perhaps it was how Jacob had the Others treat them. Perhaps it was the makeup of this particular group. Most likely it was some combination of all three. But these candidates, unlike previous ones, were able to get past their isolation, and form bonds with one other. Even better, they also established bonds with others on the island, including those who had treated them poorly.

    One of the outsiders they formed a bond with was a scientist who had figured out how to interact with Life using a particular electromagnetic field. In his experiments, Daniel Faraday had been able to dislodge the Life from a rat's body. It wasn't completely disconnected, however. It was still attached to the body in the same way the Frozen Donkey Wheel was attached to the cave wall. But like the Frozen Donkey Wheel while the island was time-hopping, the Life was no longer anchored in space-time, moving forward in a steady motion. It moved back and forth erratically in space-time until eventually it did break away from the body, and the rat died.

    The rat's death might have prevented Daniel from deciding to experiment on humans except that the person who had given him the final settings to be able to dislodge Life from a body was himself dislodged from his. Desmond Hume had come to Daniel looking for help to return to normal. As with Life after death, Desmond needed to find his Constant in order to anchor himself. And with that, Desmond became the first (and perhaps only) person to have had his Life dislodged and re-attached to his body.

    But that wasn't the only thing special about Desmond. Desmond had sat inside the Dharma Swan station for 3 years helping to push a button every 108 minutes. Why did he need to push the button? Because of The Incident.

    The detonation of the hydrogen bomb core had released intense electromagnetic radiation that had severely affected the flow of Life on the island. New Life could no longer naturally be released, and so the Swan station was designed to release it mechanically. One more fallout of The Incident was that new Life could no longer properly anchor itself to bodies, causing fertility and pregnancy problems. But this was limited to the island, and as long as Life could continue to be released to the rest of the world, life could go on.

    Now, the Swan station could have been designed to automatically release Life, but it also served one other purpose. When the numbers were finally not entered, and the electromagnetism began to build up, Desmond turned a key to activate a failsafe. The thing is, however, Desmond wasn't really activating a failsafe; he was the failsafe. All that time pushing the button had tuned his body to be able to filter out the radiation that had damaged the island. When he turned the key, all of that radiation was channeled through him, and the flow of Life on the island was restored.

    But that was only the first step in saving the island. Smokey was still alive, and intent on killing Jacob, with the Losties caught in the middle. And although they spent a good portion of their time trying to figure out who the "good guys" were, the Losties began to realize things were not that black and white. Even the "ultimate battle of good and evil" between Jacob and Smokey was really a fight between two flawed beings struggling with life like everyone else.

    Similar to the struggle between good and evil was the struggle between faith and science. And although the Losties started out fighting about which side was right, The Incident simultaneously demonstrated the failings of both.

    Faith also failed Desmond in his belief in what would happen after he pulled the plug. Because of his special nature, his Life not only could jump around in space-time, but outside of it. The dose of electromagnetic radiation that Widmore gave him allowed him to get a brief glimpse of his Life after death (while simultaneously giving his post-death Life a glimpse of his living existence). Alive Desmond saw what we all saw, a physical world. He knew that he needed to pull the plug in the cave, but concluded incorrectly that pulling the plug would replace the current world with that one.

    In truth what Desmond saw was merely a limited translation to something that his time-bound, living self could perceive. Think of an Internet forum. Users have their own browsers in which they view the content, but they are all still connected. Now, imagine there was a blind person who didn't speak English. That person would need someone to describe to him in a language he could understand what was going on in the forum. That description would only be an approximation, particularly when talking about videos and images that people posted.

    What we saw was what Alive Desmond saw, a manifestation of the Life of many of the Losties coming to terms with their existences and making connections after their deaths. It wasn't something that was literally happening (even in a virtual sense), but rather something that our own time-bound, living selves could understand.

    It was these connections to each other that the Losties finally understood to be important. When Desmond pulled the plug, he released all of the Anti-Life that was below. The plug regulated the mixing of Life and Anti-Life, but with it removed, Anti-Life would have eventually consumed all Life in the world. It had one good side effect, however. It interacted with the strongest concentration of Life first, draining Smokey until he had no more Life than a human being. This allowed Smokey to be killed. After that, Jack put the plug back in, allowing the regulation of Life and Anti-Life to be restored. So even though Desmond's faith in what would happen failed, because Jack was there to pick him up, his faith in what he needed to do worked out in the end.

    When Mother Protector and Jacob offered the cups of water to their successors, they were offers from leaders to followers. But when Jack offered the bottle to Hurley, it was an offer between friends. When Hurley offered Ben the job of #2, it was an offer of grace after everything Ben had done, including being indirectly responsible for Libby's death.

    Ultimately what the Losties discovered was that life, death, good, evil, faith, and science were secondary to their relationships with one another. Although they died apart, because they lived together, they did not die alone. The only things real in the sideways world were their connections to each other and their acceptance of themselves. And that is what needed to be found.
  4. Bananfish

    Bananfish Preowned Member

    May 16, 2002
    Belmont, CA
    I think they cared about "fit" only to the extent that it allowed them to keep telling interesting stories. Of course to tell interesting stories you have to care to some extent about fit. If you don't, the audience will sense that things don't make sense - you can cross the line from interesting to just weird or scattershot.

    Ultimately this show was about the journey. Their ultimate destination had little to do with the journey - the final denouement had almost nothing to do with anything other than the final season. You're not going to go back and watch an episode from season 2 or 4 and say "eureka! now that I've seen the final episode, I totally get why character X did Y now!"

    That doesn't mean it was bad or not worthwhile. It just means the show was about the journey, and not so much the destination. If you're a journey-lover, you love the show and the finale. If you're a destination-lover, not so much.

    I feel similarly about Lost as I do about Twin Peaks. I loved Twin Peaks at first, and then sometime in the second season, I realized there was no getting to the bottom of what was going on because David Lynch himself didn't know. A change in a character's traits, or discovering something new in the backstory of a character, is generally interesting dramatically because it involves a change in your perception of that character, leading to new insights. Lynch would teeter his characters from one trait to another trait and back to the first trait, then the second trait again, etc., making you wonder "what is really at the bottom of this character?" What I realized ultimately was that Lynch himself didn't know what was at the bottom of the character - he was so enamored with creating interesting dynamic dramatic situations, he would change a character's traits/motivation/personality at the drop of a hat to try to achieve that.
  5. T-Wolves

    T-Wolves Information Junkie

    Aug 22, 2000
    In retrospect, I thought that it was pretty cool that all of the flash-sideways' characters "remembrances" were bathed in golden light. I didn't realize the significance of it until the "golden light cave" showed up in "Across the Sea."
  6. Polcamilla

    Polcamilla Still up here... TCF Club

    Nov 7, 2001
    I'll PM you to avoid spoilers. :)
  7. pjenkins

    pjenkins God bless Texas :)

    Mar 8, 1999
    Plano, TX, USA
    was the pergatory flash-sideways created by the bomb?
  8. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

    Oct 17, 2000
    No, the bomb just caused/aggravated the Incident and threw the Losties back into the present. The purgatory flash-sideways was caused by, well, whatever runs the universe and decides what happens to us when we die. In that respect, the bomb was a red herring.
  9. Waldorf

    Waldorf Super Duper Member

    Oct 4, 2002
    Phoenix, AZ
    My understanding is that the FS/Limbo/Purgatory was created by dead people. The bomb (you mean the one Juliet was banging on with the rock?) sent them from the 70's back to current-ish time.
  10. pjenkins

    pjenkins God bless Texas :)

    Mar 8, 1999
    Plano, TX, USA
    so everyone goes through that and it was added as filler by the writers to make the island stuff seem more cool?
  11. jkeegan

    jkeegan New Member

    Oct 16, 2000
    Yup. The bomb was actually a pretty sad creature for most of its life, because it wasn't able to fulfill it's potential - to BE what the bomb was.. It wanted to explode. But people kept it from achieving that goal.

    Later it was even buried underground in concrete, where its faith was tested and it almost let it's dream of one day brilliantly exploding die.

    But then the nice people, especially that one with the black hair named Jack, came and rescued it from that cave, and promised to finally let it explode! Of course, it had to lower its expectations - the *entire* bomb couldn't go off.. but at least some of it would.

    When it finally got its chance, they dropped it and... it fell in mud! No! It was so sad that it wanted to just lie there and fizzle out.

    But the nice lady fell in afterwards, and hit it with a rock! The bomb went boom! Hooray!

    And in its last seconds of life, the bomb's subconscious decided to reward that nice lady and the nice man and any of their friends by creating a pocket of real reality and making it such that their thoughts and consciousness would travel to that place without time, resolve any issues they had, then return to experience their death satisfied that they'd resolved the things in their lives.

    That was the gift that the bomb gave those nice people. It made them an afterlife soul-gathering game-lobby.

  12. Keith_R90210

    Keith_R90210 New Member

    Jul 25, 2003
    This is how I interpreted it as well though the opening to this season hinted at it being the other way around. As others have said though this was a red herring.

    A lot of good thoughts and interpretations in this thread. I'm enjoying reading these since they really are helping my understanding of what I saw.

    I plan on rewatching this weekend or maybe even tonight.
  13. DevdogAZ

    DevdogAZ Give em Hell, Devils

    Apr 16, 2003
    I don't think Richard would have had much choice in the matter, even if he had known.
    Obviously, there's some sarcasm there, but I can't tell how much. I think you're completely misleading pjenkins and unnecessarily creating more confusion if you're trying to tell him that the bomb created the purgatory/limbo state. That's not what happened at all.
  14. Anubys

    Anubys KMT Soccer Playa

    Jul 16, 2004
    that's exactly what I mean...

    the rule is valid: only one person can go in at a time. FLocke is not a real person. So he and Ben can go in.

    Richard doesn't know that FLocke is not real, thus he now thinks that the rule is being broken without any consequences...if he doubts that rule, he would start to wonder what else did Jacob tell him that isn't true...

    thus what I said, Flocke used the ambiguity to rattle Richard...and the rule can still be true!
  15. jkeegan

    jkeegan New Member

    Oct 16, 2000

    Wow that's very dry. :) Ok, I'll crack first.

    Yep - DevdogAZ called me on it - I was actually kidding there. I didnt' actually believe that the bomb had thoughts, or the ability to care about people or whether it exploded. Good catch. I actually thought pjenkins was trolling humorously (after the 24 pages of 40-threads-per-page that is this thread, where people have repeatedly quoted Christian's line that Jack and his friends created "this place" so they could all meet up). I hadn't considered that it was a serious question.

    For anyone reading that still needs an explanation (if I'm not on lots of ignore lists or something, because it feels like I and others need to keep repeating this stuff), the bomb always went off, the bomb was always part of the Incident, it didn't create anything (except most likely an environment inhospitable for the conception and birth of babies), the explosion of the bomb near the electromagnetism/light/etc flashed the Losties forward to 2007, at which point they saw the hatch had still been built, etc.

    MiB kills Jacob, people walk around the island, Jack becomes the new leader, brings Locke/Desmond to the well, Desmond goes down and removes the cork, smokey loses his power (as does Jack), Jack kills him by kicking him off a cliff (after Kate shot him), Jack makes Hurley the new leader (same as him, not a replacement), Jack puts the cork back in, Jack summons water with his hand, the water makes the light come back on, Hurley and Ben talk about how Hurley can make different rules and make the universe work the way he wants, Jack crawls away from the cave to his series starting spot in the bamboo, looks up at the sky, (maybe travels to sideways here, maybe after his eye closes), closes his eye, and dies (and maybe travels to the sideways here before moving on, if he didn't earlier in this sentence).

    Christian said the Losties (Jack and his friends) made the place they were in, so they could find each other before moving on. The sideways world was a place made somehow by them, where they could resolve issues, meet up with each other, and all get to die together at the same time (even though in reality they died at different times).

    If you care about more detail, read the entire thread - there's been quite a bit of talk about it.

    (nah.. it was the bomb, because the people were so nice)
  16. jkeegan

    jkeegan New Member

    Oct 16, 2000
    Ahh, I see the confusion. It depends on whether that "rule" was just a convention that Jacob made (look.. it's company policy, no appointments without an invitation, sorry.. write your congressman) or a full fledged let's-change-the-nature-of-the-universe-to-accomodate-this-rule rule (like the Jacob-can't-hurt-MiB-and-vice-versa rule seems to be).

    I thought that was just a policy kind of rule that he told Richard (like boss's orders) to keep himself safe.. like Tony Soprano would have one of his henchmen check someone at the door before letting them inside to see him. So I thought that smokey's only job was to trick Richard into *breaking* the rule, by saying "look.. you're impressed by me, right? remember? I showed up in 1950.. time travel. I gave you that compass. I'm special - disappeared right before your eyes. and I'm the leader now. get out of my way" and essentially bullying his way in. (Richard had to even press a secret panel on the door to get inside..)
  17. Polcamilla

    Polcamilla Still up here... TCF Club

    Nov 7, 2001
    Somebody should craft an elaborate and intricate multi-season television show and then *TOTALLY* do this with the finale!
  18. pjenkins

    pjenkins God bless Texas :)

    Mar 8, 1999
    Plano, TX, USA
    yes, serious question, your answer was humorous though :)

    the entire always-existed sideways pergatory introduced at the last season makes the entire storyline even worse than before in my view, and i didn't think that was possible! thanks jkeegan!
  19. Anubys

    Anubys KMT Soccer Playa

    Jul 16, 2004
    oh...I agree it was probably a "policy"...I was simply responding to the guy who pointed to this rule being broken as proof that Jacob had no powers (or something like that)...

    so I gave him a scenario where the rule could still be A RULE and not have been broken...
  20. MickeS

    MickeS New Member

    Dec 26, 2002
    Has anyone here seen David Lynch's movie "Lost Highway"?
    In it
    the main character all of a sudden transforms into a completely different person.
    There's no explanation for how or why it happens, but I always took it at face value: it just happened. I know some people I had discussions about the movie couldn't accept that though; they needed explanations of HOW it happened, nevermind that it can't ever happen in real life. I thought of that movie today because those discussions remind me a lot of what has been discussed in this thread about the lack of explanations. I don't really care about the explanations, but many people do.

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