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I hate, hate, HATE the updated Netflix app!!!

Discussion in 'TiVo Premiere DVRs' started by escrge, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. moyekj

    moyekj Well-Known Member

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    Like others I was having trouble getting consistent 1080p/24 out of TiVo Netflix and suffered through resolution changes a lot. Today in my Netflix account I discovered under my account settings->Manage video quality none of the 3 options was selected (options are good, better, best). So I enabled "best" quality and lo and behold I watched 5 episodes of Breaking Bad without being interrupted by resolution changes. Playback now starts at 720p and then quickly goes to 1080p/24 and stays there for duration. So either it's a big coincidence that things got better or that setting actually does something to help TiVo Netflix.
     
  2. morac

    morac Cat God

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    That setting controls how much bandwidth Netflix uses (for people with broadband caps). As far as I'm aware the default, unless you've changed it in the past, is Best.
     
  3. mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    If it'd been set below "Best" you'd never have received 1080 res, at all. "Better" limits it to bandwidth that won't get you the best SD encode. It limits you to 1555 Kbps and the best SD encode is 1750 Kbps (2134 Kbps with 5.1 sound). They need to change those ranges up and add a new one to lock out "Super HD" for those who don't find it enough of an improvement over the "regular" 1080p to warrant the 50% increase in bandwidth consumption.
     
  4. moyekj

    moyekj Well-Known Member

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    As I said when I checked it none of the options were selected, which probably means the whole dynamic range was being used for streaming. Perhaps by selecting one of the options it limits the dynamic range a little, or could just be coincidence. Time will tell if behavior reverts back to what I was seeing before with lots of dropping in and out of 1080p/24.
     
  5. mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    I think it was a coincidence. With a setting of anything other than "Best" the best video you'll get is the 1050 Kbps 640x480 encode. I have no idea what you mean by "the whole dynamic range". Adaptive bit rate streamers always use all of the component video encodes if necessary; that Manage Video Quality setting just limits the highest bit rate one that you can use; "Best" is essentially unlimited.

    I left that setting untouched for years until I was desperately trying to debug a problem (of course, setting it didn't help).
     
  6. Mike-Wolf

    Mike-Wolf New Member

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    Certainly hope this doesn't happen. It's bad enough people don't understand the settings that are already there....:p
     
  7. morac

    morac Cat God

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    The setting was basically put there for Canadians because of the Canadian ISPs ridiculously low overage caps (as low as 2 GB per month). The lowest cap in the U.S. is AT&T's 150 GB cap which is high enough to stream dozens of movies and TV shows a month at the "Best" setting.
     
  8. mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    Not true--Cox San Diego has a different cap for each network service tier (see this). The 1 Mbps down/384 Kbps up "Starter" tier has a 50 GB/month combined cap (down+up), the 3M/768K "Essential" tier has a 100 GB cap and the 3 tiers above that have 250-, 300- and 400 GB caps. My 25M/2M "Premiere" tier has a 300 GB/month cap; I rarely use more than half of it and I'm hardly the typical user. But that cap might be strained if I were sharing it with a wife and a couple of teens.

    My problem is that Netflix has foisted these Super HD video encodes on us (if your ISP has signed up for access to their Open Connect CDN); the higher Super HD video encode is 5800 Kbps, half again the 3850 Kbps "regular" 1080p encode. I'm not convinced that you get anything significant for that, though there are people with larger screens who swear that the difference is clear to them. In any case, we should be able to set a 4234 Kbps limit (3850 Kbps video + 384 Kbps 5.1 sound, which'd work out to 2 GB/hour) so that they don't scarf down 50% more bandwidth for what may not be any significant improvement in PQ. Right now there's no way to stop it--if there's sufficient bandwidth on your connections to Netflix's servers you will get the Super HD encode, available for nearly all HD titles.

    AVS Forum member msgohan compiled a large set of matched screen shots using his HDMI capture card and posted them in his "Netflix PS3 streaming comparison PIX" thread. He posted the same frame of many titles as played from multiple sources (Netflix, Blu-ray, iTunes, Amazon, VUDU, etc) and sometimes multiple quality levels per source. He's promised to collect some new caps for comparison with the originals and to each other. Are the new 3850 Kbps eyeIO-tech encodes actually equivalent to the old 4800 Kbps ones as Netflix claims? Are the 5800 Kbps encodes greatly sharper than the 3850 Kbps ones? I'm dying for answers to these and other questions.
     
  9. Apr 5, 2013 #209 of 227
    moyekj

    moyekj Well-Known Member

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    Time has spoken and yes turns out it was just a coincidence as last night there were many jumps from 1080p/24 to 720p. Got so bad I had to turn off 1080p/24 and then I got a consistent 1080i feed without interruption. Not a big deal as on a 42" TV I don't really see much difference between 1080p and 1080i anyway.
     
  10. Apr 5, 2013 #210 of 227
    mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    Note that you are getting the 1080p24 encode, it's just converting it to 1080i30. It does the same sort of thing to the 720p24 encode, displaying it as 720p60.
     
  11. Apr 5, 2013 #211 of 227
    moyekj

    moyekj Well-Known Member

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    Must be lower bit rate though since it holds at 1080i without reverting back to 720p.
     
  12. Apr 5, 2013 #212 of 227
    mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    No, it's not. If you have 720p and 1080i selected it will not use 720p except for the 720p24 encodes. The TiVo Premiere's player is one of only a couple in the devices that I have which will ramp up to the 1080p24 encode(s) even if you limit the output resolution to 720p, downconverting it for display; I think that the other one might be the Sony BDP-S390.
     
  13. Apr 5, 2013 #213 of 227
    moyekj

    moyekj Well-Known Member

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    That's not my experience. I have 720p & 1080i as valid outputs for my Premiere. When I 1st start playing a Netflix show it starts as 720p and then changes over to 1080i in about 30 seconds or so. When I had 720p, 1080i, 1080p as valid outputs for Premiere it would start at 720p and jump directly to 1080p. So my guess is without 1080p as a valid output I'm still getting 1080p encodes which TiVo is interlacing to 1080i, but for both cases I do get 720p initially.
     
  14. Apr 5, 2013 #214 of 227
    mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    I haven't disputed that you don't get 720p initially. If you don't have 480i or 480p selected it's going to convert anything up to and including 720p to 720p60. What I was saying is that, if the TiVo is set up to output only 720p, it will still ramp up to receive the 1080p24 encodes, downconverting them to 720p60. You can see this by playing "Example Short 23.976", a test clip with burned in bit-rate/resolution info.

    If your ISP is not set up for access to Netflix's private Open Connect CDN, you will only receive one 1080p24 video encode at 3850 Kbps. If your ISP can access Open Connect then 4300- and 5800 Kbps "Super HD" 1080p24 encodes will also be available.
     
  15. Apr 5, 2013 #215 of 227
    moyekj

    moyekj Well-Known Member

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    Gotcha. Yes I've used that test clip to confirm my ISP does have access to "Super HD". I think the problem is a lot of times my node can't sustain the highest bit rates for prolonged periods. Is there a table somewhere where it lists all the incremental resolutions and bit rates that are used? Seems to me like perhaps towards the higher end of encodings there aren't enough of them so any little glitch throws it down to much lower bit rate. Does that test clip step through all the encodings and bit rates that are generally available for most titles?
     
  16. Apr 5, 2013 #216 of 227
    mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    Actually on the TiVo it seems to have all of them. On other devices it drops 3 of the lowest bit-rate/resolution ones, the 235-, 384- and 750 Kbps video encodes (none of which show the burned-in info in TiVo's), leaving 560- (384x512), 1050- (480x640), 1750- (480x720), 2350-, 3000- (both 720x1280), 3800- (1080x1920), 4300- and 5800 Kbps (1080x1920 "Super HD") encodes. I think that'd be smart for them to drop those three low-end encoding for all titles and that might be where they're heading. If you don't have 560 Kbps for streaming then you should give it up (you should probably give it up if you don't have 2000 Kbps, what you'd need to 1750). I think that they figure that at the high end if you have enough bandwidth for any of 1080p encodes then you probably have much more than enough. I don't forsee them adding more 1080p encodes. If you have 1080p24 output enabled in your TiVo settings and bandwidth on your connections to TiVo is fluctuation such that it drops out of the lowest bit rate 1080p24 encode then you're screwed--I really don't think that they're going to add a 1080p24 encode at somewhere between the 3000 Kbps high 720p24 encode the 3850 Kbps low 1080p one. The solution is not to use TiVo's lame 1080p24 output setting--it's incompatible with Adaptive Bit-rate Streaming unless you know that available bandwidth on your connections to Netflix's servers will never drop below what's needed to stay ahead of the 3850 Kbps 1080p24 video encode (about 5 Mbps if you're using 5.1 channel DD+ audio).
     
  17. Apr 5, 2013 #217 of 227
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    My GFs 1.2 Mb/s DSL internet connection is rock solid on the TiVo. Granted it's only SD but it will play back the Netflix streaming without issues. I wish I could convince her to get FiOS, heck even Comcast, but she is adamant about not upgrading to a faster connection. Even though it would help her when she needs to connect to work.
     
  18. Apr 5, 2013 #218 of 227
    mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    So it's probably enough to get her the 1050 Kbps 480x640 video encodes (maybe only 750 Kbps video, when you count sound). If she enjoys that then perhaps I was being elitist by saying that you should probably give it up if you have less than 2 Mbps of bandwidth :D. I still say that if you don't have at least the 800 Kbps that you'd need for 560 Kbps video encode + 192 Kbps stereo sound, you should definitely forget about streaming. They can safely dump the two encodes lower than that, speeding up the ramp up some.

    It occurs to me that they already much improved that situation--used to be that the high 720p encode was at 3600 Kbps and the sole 1080p encode was 4800 Kbps; they've made it so that you can get 1080p at a 25% lower rate, 3850 Kbps.
     
  19. Apr 6, 2013 #219 of 227
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    I agree that she should have a faster internet connection. I have tried to convince her to get FiOS, but she never did. Even when they offered her FiOS with quick DSL speeds at a lower price she never got it.

    I am just pleased that when I am at her house that I am still able to watch Netflix streaming on her slow DSL connection. I cannot do it with Amazon, Vudu, or Hulu+. But Netflix is still able to stream with that slow connection with no issues.
     
  20. Apr 7, 2013 #220 of 227
    Mike-Wolf

    Mike-Wolf New Member

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    That's interesting because I see a huge difference between 1080i and it switching to 1080p both in fluidity and motion smoothness and richness of the color gamut, on my 32inch Sony EX500 with it's 120Hz refresh rate. I'm on Comcast with a 53Mbps connection.
     

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