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Discussion in 'TiVo Roamio DVRs' started by amseven11, Aug 20, 2013.
What exact model hard drives do the Roamio Plus and Pro use?
Newegg has the WD AV-GP WD30EURX 3TB IntelliPower drive for $119.99 with PROMO CODE: EMCPGPF27 until 3/10/14
what do you guys think?
i upgraded my plus a couple of months ago to a EURX. The plus has rebooted twice this past week while we were watching a recorded show from the now playing list.
i didn't run any tests on the hdd before i upgraded. I'm thinking the hdd is going bad.
i don't watch the MLB channel.
There are several reporting Roamio and Premiere random reboots over the past 10 days - 2 weeks. All of mine are rebooting.
See the following: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10031426#post10031426
If you want to test the HDD run a Kickstart 54
I just added another post over there.
However, I've been looking for somebody to (inevitably) start a new thread, in the Roamio area, so I'm not posting duplicate data points and info in Premiere areas.
The different TiVo platform crowds get angry and sharpen their pitchforks when those who are speaking of other plaflorms post in their threads (98% of the time).
Should this be the "right" place, or have you spotted an appropriate thread?
I've been rather silent, and inactive, on here, for quite some time now. This is because of my lack of problems with my Roamios (and taking all other TiVo platforms out of service, to sell). Now, once again, I'm getting angry, and us drive upgrading folks may not be able to get any help from TiVo... We may have to figure it out on our own.
A good question is: Is anybody running a stock drive having the issue we speak of? If not... Well, I just don't want to go there right now...
I can't find anything actually wrong with the drives. I'm just now finding out that KS54 SMART tests built into Roamios do not seem to be able to do anything but read SMART data, and perform 5 minute, or other quick, tests (when a drive upgrade has been performed), while the hours-long tests go on for days, with no end in sight. My Premieres and HDs were still able to perform these tests on 2TB upgrade drives. Perhaps there's a >2TB bug that nobody has found, until now, as this may be the first time multiple people may be using the built-in KS diags, on an upgraded drive?
I'm still gathering data points, and am looking forward to a unified thread on this matter, or at least a Roamio thread that can be a base-of-operations for those with Roamios. I prefer a unified front comparing notes, cross-platform.
There is no one stopping you from creating such a thread. Why count on someone else? It may never get created.
It's pretty straightforward (IMO), in the small portion you quoted. Also, I'm trying to not start a new thread, unless absolutely necessary. Also, I'm still gathering data points.
I was looking for both opinions on whether a new thread had enough merit, as well as opinions on if the matter should be kept in parallel threads for each platform, or unified as one-thread-for-all.
Please forgive me for trying to keep the peace, act responsibly, and for actually looking for some feedback, before I just go and start another thread...
I'm often hoping for a new (and/or better) thread on some issues/matters. That doesn't mean anybody/everybody else is.
It sounds like the discussion you suggest would make a good thread in the TiVo Upgrade Center forum, especially if you think stock units might not suffer from the problem.
running the hdd test now- but it's looking like a good drive. i'm just running the SMART test
it is super nice to know it might be a software issue and not require another $100 buck outlay! nooneuknow's posts are very informative
sorry abt the double post
anyone know how long a smart test takes on a 3gb drive?
i may be hung at 10% of the extended test. I'm at 19mins
i missed the 'test time (est)' <eyeroll>
FWIW here's my two cents:
I don't *think* it has anything to do with upgraded drives.
I doubt that many other TiVo owners have folded, spindled or mutilated their drives as much as I have and every one I own is rock solid except for the video glitch caused by overlapping recordings on the same channel. I have never had a spontaneous reboot or even a C133 error.
Lets make it a comprehensive thread that includes every variable including upgraded drives, TAs, CableCARD firmware, network configuration, cable provider (if any), location, and anything else we can think of. A pattern may emerge.
I would agree, my Roamio Pro and XL4 are the worst rebooting offenders and both have stock HDDs.
It seems that the KS54 SMART tests on my base Roamios are incapable of detecting that my WD Red NAS 3TB WD30EFRX drives have completed the SMART extended and offline data gathering tests. The result is the test screen for each just running on for days, until I abort the testing. Maybe the tests complete, and the TiVo doesn't get the memo... It's hard to tell...
The drives test fine on a computer test platform, with no issues at all.
I did a KS57 and KS58, which pruned down the number of recordings in two folders to 167 each (was over 300 each). At the same time, my drive usage bar on the TiVo which was stuck at 50% while rebooting daily, jumped to 52%, without any added recordings.
Now I'll have to let it run and see if the daily reboots continue.
I also noticed KS52 is no longer valid - which makes sense, given the new nature of where the base operating system resides (on flash memory).
I'm curious if any of the prior discontinued KS number codes work again, like the one that was supposed to force a download of the current software, or if there are any new ones.
I'm not curious enough to just start trying all two number combinations and hoping I don't brick a Roamio.
Anybody feeling adventurous?
That's all I have for now. It *seems* that the issues are not with the drives. But, I'd sure like to know if anybody can replicate my issues with the KS54 SMART tests, or say they get different results.
I used the long way to the tests, by selecting the drive, and individually selecting each test, not the short way that runs all tests sequentially, on any drive(s) it can detect, FWIW.
I don't think it would make a difference, but maybe I'll try the short way and see what happens the next chance I get, after taking a few days to see if I catch any reboots occurring again.
I'm also seeing some sort of timing issue with the KS54 SMART tests, where all my prior TiVos would update the "elapsed time" exactly when the "next check in 5 minutes", polling timer hit zero, but my Roamio is updating the elapsed time almost randomly (in mid-countdown), and the elapsed time is off (like something can't keep the time or the syncing of time/drive polling).
I'm not seeing a huge amount of people pouring into anywhere to report reboots, like I was expecting, after the initial batch that made it feel like a wave of reports was due to come crashing in...
Understood. I wasn't trying to be snarky, it's just that I noticed you mentioned starting a thread a couple times before, and my mindset is of the type that says if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.
If invoking the SMART tests from within TiVo's software fails to report completion but invoking them from a computer succeeds, that would surely indicate a bug in TiVo's software. I doubt that WD Red NAS drives are any different from any other drives with respect to SMART test protocol. I also doubt that your problems are in your drive hardware.
If the KS57 and KS58 tests are pruning down the number of recordings (and the errors they're presumably fixing can't be blamed on hardware), that would seem to indicate a serious bug in TiVo's disk storage management software (MFS?), which is scary because that's at the heart of DVR functionality. I guess it's also possible that there could be bugs in those KS routines themselves, which would actually be less worrisome.
I believe the video glitching seen with single-tuner overlap (and possibly some other problems) can be blamed on poor prioritization within TiVo's software, such that low-level tasks are performed within high-level code, causing some hardware (like tuner or demodulator chips) to not be serviced in a timely manner. I'm now wondering if such problems can also cause errors not just in video data but also in structural parts of recordings (pointers, etc) that affect the basic integrity of the file system.
Each manufacturer can implement the SMART protocol in their own way. From Wikipedia:
"Although an industry standard exists among most major hard drive manufacturers, there are some remaining issues and much proprietary "secret knowledge" held by individual manufacturers as to their specific approach. As a result, S.M.A.R.T. is not always implemented correctly on many computer platforms, due to the absence of industry-wide software and hardware standards for S.M.A.R.T. data interchange."
A drive that fails a SMART test should be replaced immediately, but passing a SMART test doesn't mean the drive is healthy.
running k54 on my roamio because i had two unexpected reboots while i was watching a recorded show.
the extended test took 8 hrs to complete, an hr longer than the estimate
the off-line scan is estimating 12hrs...
i have a 3tb drive and had no problem with my usage bar, it was behaving as expected. Nor did i have any files with more them 300 show in it.
i do not think i will let the off line scan complete..unless someone can say why i should.
The best reason I can come up with is that if you didn't test your drive and look at the SMART values before installing the drive, and/or never ran the tests in the Roamio, you have no assurance that the whole drive is good, and there isn't a bunch of drive defects just waiting for you to use that much of the drive to get to them, before problems creep (or swoop) in.
Otherwise, I can't come up with much, other than for comparisons, baselines, or "data points" to help others.
There has been a small spike in people asking about "what hard drive to buy?" and people jumping to conclusions that their hard drive has gone bad. To make make matters worse, an overly helpful forum member (pot meets kettle) is telling people, who are asking about hard drives, that their power supply may be bad (on Premieres and older units), giving out advice on power supply inspection/repair, and complicated (for some) hard drive "rescue" operations. It may all be unnecessary/overkill, if it's just rebooting caused by a software or guide-data bug.
You can always run a long test like that when it suits your usage (or lack of usage). You can also always just go in and take a peek at the SMART values, every now an then, when it's convenient for you.
At minimum, for your own purposes, I suggest taking a snap shot of the SMART value screen with a camera, and/or just write the numbers and values down, and make sure to put a date on it, label what it is, and put a copy in a safe place, should you wish to compare values later. You often can see a trend in the numbers/values, which will tell you to be cautious, before the SMART values trigger a FAIL result (which not all values will trigger equally, if at all).
Why even run those long, and time-consuming tests? Unless you pre-tested the drive, they will never be run (as the TiVo is never offline/not busy). You might catch a bad drive, or an untrustworthy drive, before it dies.
At the same time, a drive can pass all tests, then less than a day later, suffer a sudden-death-failure, with no warning, and previously perfect SMART values. That has happened to me, a few times.
As others have said:
1. If a drive fails SMART, replace immediately.
2. If a drive passes SMART, it can still fail at any time.
3. SMART implementations are not always standardized between manufacturers/OEMs.
4. It's really not this simple, but this is my best attempt at being "short and simple", and not bringing up every possible exception.
I'd love it if somebody can/could find the time to run the long/offline tests on the same model, as well as differing models, hard drive(s), and report back. But, it's not something worth the effort, if you are just doing it for somebody else, and you are going without TiVo to do so.
Which model drive did you wind up with? I think I was helping you with drive selection (in this very thread), before being on an involuntary period of being away from the forum.
I'm guessing WD30EZRX.
See my post here: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10038994#post10038994 for a potential fix for this.
Eliminate the note about KS52 for Roamio models (KS52 is no longer valid for any Roamio model).
I've fixed a few issues with this, and I'm counting the days until I can say "X days (or hopefully XX days) and no reboots!".
I used to have to do this process with my Premieres about every 6-8 months, and nearly forgot about it (since moving to the Roamio platform).
It seems to have fixed two things (I'll disclose the other issue at a later time), but I'm not convinced it will hold (yet).
Most people don't have 172 Season Passes, and hoard hundreds of SD repeat recordings, so I'm not a "usual TiVo case". But, I have noticed each generation of TiVo seems to give me a longer period before the way I use them catches up and requires some "maintenance/manual intervention".
The post referenced above, placed in the Premiere thread, came to be "routine maintenance" for me, when I had Premieres, and I couldn't even keep any HDs running for long unless I kept doing as I describe.
The same warnings and disclaimers apply, even though I haven't bricked a Roamio (yet) trying it on them.
The above link may shed some light of why WD Red NAS drives may be losing communication with the host (TiVo Roamio) during the long tests which only poll the drive every 5 minutes.
Apparently WDIDLE3.EXE either doesn't work properly (reports timer disabled or set to a value), or this NEW tool wouldn't be necessary, or exist at all.
I waited quite a while before buying my Roamios and deciding on WD Red NAS drives, basing my decisions on many factors, as well as reports of them working well together, here.
However, I don't think anybody ran KS54 SMART diags on them, and I just slapped them in (after real-time PC testing), believing what I read on here that no changes were necessary with the idle timer on any WD Drives with Roamios. My bad, I guess...
The other headline is WD has yet another color: PURPLE...
New Product - WD Purple Surveillance Storage (2/25/14)
While I can't imagine them being affordable for TV DVR use, I bet somebody will think this is a must have product (aaronwt, are you listening?). If TiVos actually used the ATA Streaming Command Set Extensions, and had 32 HD streams going, actually using the extensions, then maybe I'd agree.
However, as I'm always reminding people, TiVo doesn't use those extensions, and likely never will (especially if they never design another DVR, or even if they do). So, the number of "streams" supported, as listed by the drive makers, is all moot in the TiVo universe. Those are not the "streams" you are looking for (it's irrelevant). It's all just regular data streams, with regular error-correction.
If you want the best possible drive for a security/surveillance DVR (the former target market for AV and AV-GP drives), and your rig does actually support these drives (there's a compatibility list), then please dive in and let us all know how they work.
I did glean that they "are not for use in NAS environments". Since a TiVo is technically more of a NAS device than it is an AV surveillance device, that's two or three strikes (first one is price - if you can find a price).
FWIW: If TiVo ever did/does turn on AV streaming, the current generation WD Red NAS drives (2.0) support it. PWL (preemptive Wear Leveling) isn't listed as a feature on the Reds, but I think TiVo drives thrash around enough that it likely doesn't matter...
Anybody have access to the old datasheets from WD on how many TB/year their drives were rated for (TB written per year)?
I ran across some old reviews that pegged the Red NAS as being (unofficially) rated for 120 to 150 TB/year, which seems inadequate for a TiVo by my math. Perhaps the AV and AV-GP drives had that same spec, and that's why only their Re and Se enterprise class drives list specs on that...
I'd like to know if WD ever specified how many TB/year writes their AV and AV-GP drives were rated for. Don't you? Apparently 24/7 rated doesn't mean 24/7 writing rated, or they changed their mind on that. Hmmmm....