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Elementary 5/16/13 "The Woman/Heroine"

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by Rob Helmerichs, May 16, 2013.

  1. Mars Rocket

    Mars Rocket Loosely wound

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    Yeah, same thing. That's what I'm afraid this could turn into.

    And yes, I am very familiar with Holmes and Moriarty - but the original characters were written over 100 years ago, and I don't think they translate well in modern times exactly the same way. For one thing, modern supervillains in TV and movies tend to be enormously wealthy and have huge resources at their disposal before we ever meet them, invariably leading to the ability to escape from captivity or never get caught in the first place or somehow trick the protagonist. That's not entertaining. It's just a deus ex machina in human form. Maybe mainstream America likes that kind of thing, but I don't.
     
  2. Turtleboy

    Turtleboy Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    I'm afraid of it turning into moonlighting. They should never get horizontal.
     
  3. TonyD79

    TonyD79 Active Member

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    Yeah, right.
     
  4. TonyD79

    TonyD79 Active Member

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    Why? Because the only thing that can challenge someone is a big bad? Again, Holmes existed for dozens of stories without a big bad and he did fine.

    Oh, right, mentions. They were a big challenge.

    Holmes is flawed. He is more interesting when his flaws are of his own making. That, rather than just having a powerful adversary, is more imaginative and more interesting. That plus difficult challenges, cases.

    It is a copout to blame everything on a single big bad. It is lazy. It is boring.
     
  5. john4200

    john4200 Active Member

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    If the hero is larger than life, then it takes a larger than life villain (rather than an ordinary villain) to really challenge the hero, to put him to the test. See what the hero is really capable of when he is operating at his absolute peak.

    Obviously not every villain the hero encounters needs to be a super villain, but for an extraordinary hero to develop in an interesting way, he needs to occasionally be put in a situation where he is likely to fail, and we get to see how he handles such a situation. Especially for an extraordinary hero, such a situation is interesting to observe since it is so unusual for the hero to encounter a real challenge -- it may be the first time in the hero's life where things don't go easily for him.
     
  6. TonyD79

    TonyD79 Active Member

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    And yet Sherlock was successful without Moriarty. Besides, especially as CBS has portrayed him, he is fundamentally flawed. Larger than life does not mean perfect. Roseanne Barr is larger than life (not a fat joke), for example.

    Many Sherlock portrayals are not very good. The Downey Jr movies reek. Elementary is well done and does not need a big bad. As neither did Doyle until he wanted to kill off Sherlock.
     
  7. john4200

    john4200 Active Member

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    You keep saying that. And yet Sherlock Holmes only achieved enduring success and immense popularity after Moriarty.

    Holmes is certainly flawed. He has low points. But he also has a high gear that is higher than just about anyone else's. And he needs someone like Moriarty to get him to shift into that high gear.

    Roseanne Barr is definitely not an extraordinary hero, which is what I meant by larger than life hero. She is hardly a hero at all. She is an ordinary Jane.
     
  8. Hunter Green

    Hunter Green Curmudgeon

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    While I hate to give any ammo to either side of this argument, and particularly one that wants more Moriarty, I have to say that the question of whether Moriarty was important in Doyle's time, or whether his part is responsible for why Holmes is still popular now, is beside the point. There's no question that people nowadays, particularly the millions who have heard of Holmes but not actually read Doyle, consider Moriarty to be a key part of the story. Tastes have changed since Doyle's time. So even if Doyle's time didn't need a nemesis, and even if the popularity of Holmes owes little or nothing to Moriarty, modern incarnations of Holmes are still almost certain to have and feature one, because of modern tastes.

    For the record, I don't mind if they keep going with the pattern they have now, with standalone stories interrupted by the occasional arc, but I wouldn't mind if this ends up being the end of Moriarty's story, too. I was surprised to see how they handled it and glad of it; I expected an unsatisfying cliffhanger. I'm even more glad that they didn't throw Holmes back into the addiction pit; I don't recall ever seeing a story of a now-sober addict losing it and getting back into the addiction that didn't feel like a negative turn in the story to me.
     
  9. TonyD79

    TonyD79 Active Member

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    Sorry. That's a silly argument. Doyle also killed Holmes, so I guess that "proves" Holmes was immensely popular after he died. Or that the Brady Bunch was immensely popular in reruns, *after* Cousin Oliver joined the show, so Oliver is a reason for popularity. I see nothing in any history of Holmes that shows any drop off in interest prior to Moriarty showing up. And plenty of non-Moriarty stories told over and over again.

    Moriarty was simply a method for Doyle to kill off Holmes. Authors get tired if their creations. Christie wanted to kill Poirot years before she did. She had him do himself in. So, Poirot was immensely popular after he killed himself. Hmmm.
     
  10. TAsunder

    TAsunder Debates Ghee vs Gi

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    I really need to start watching shows that john4200 doesn't watch just to see what a thread on this forum would be like in that scenario...

    I really enjoyed the 2 hour finale. My interest in the show was fading fairly quickly before the last few episodes. They drew me back in pretty well, even if the big reveal wasn't supremely surprising.
     
  11. john4200

    john4200 Active Member

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    The number of fans of Sherlock Holmes after Moriarty is immensely greater than the number of fans before Doyle wrote about Moriarty. You can claim that it would have been the same if Doyle never wrote about Moriarty, but that is idle speculation.

    Almost all of the most popular subsequent Sherlock Holmes adaptations have Moriarty as an important part. It is blindingly obvious that Moriarty is a big part of the enduring success of Sherlock Holmes. If you cannot see that, then perhaps you are wearing blinders.
     
  12. TonyD79

    TonyD79 Active Member

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    The number of non Sherlock fans is immensely greater too. Your point?

    By the way, why the hard on for Moriarty? You a relative or something. (Standard Internet forum joke complete)
     
  13. john4200

    john4200 Active Member

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    Moriarty is clearly important to the enduring popularity of the Sherlock Holmes stories, even though you have a strange enmity to the character. Did he kill your dog or something?

    Anyway, all you have to do is look at this very show, where the discussion picked up whenever Moriarty was part of the episode.
     
  14. TonyD79

    TonyD79 Active Member

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    I disagree. While people (mis)quote Holme all the time and call people who analyze things "Sherlock" the name Moriarty comes up few times in casual conversation or jokes.

    I have no issue with the character. I just don't want Elementary to turn into another comic book where they trot out the big bad over and over again. I love the way they handled the story but it is over. Move on to other stories. It seems you think that is impossible. And yet elementary gained a following and renewal without Moriarty except for mentions and a small trail earlier.

    It is boring if a villain keeps resurfacing. What did the hero win if they come back over and over again. Usually tr stakes increase until someone has to die. If it is the hero, shows over.

    She can come back but not all the time. Maybe use her like Hannibal Lector or very occasionally.

    Just as the Master gets old on Doctor Who or even the Joker or Lex Luthor get old in Batman or Superman, Moriarty can get old quickly.

    This is what our disagreement comes down to: I say Moriarty is not a necessity, you seem to think that he/she is needed all the time. I find that lazy and boring writing and thinking.

    I'm done.
     
  15. john4200

    john4200 Active Member

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    No, absolutely wrong. I never said that Moriarty is needed "all the time". My claims were that Moriarty is important to the enduring popularity of Sherlock Holmes, and to the character development of Holmes. You may disagree with the latter, but the former is self-evident -- all you have to do is look at the most popular Sherlock Holmes adaptations of the last several decades, and see that almost all of them have Moriarty as an important part. Obviously Moriarty does not have to appear in every minute of every Holmes story, but he (or she) does need to be part of the story, at least in the background, for Holmes to display his full potential.
     
  16. TonyD79

    TonyD79 Active Member

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    Whatever. You got the last word. Congratulations.
     
  17. john4200

    john4200 Active Member

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    Is getting the last word something that is important to you? I'm not sure why you brought it up all of a sudden, and then posted this nonsense.
     
  18. TonyD79

    TonyD79 Active Member

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    Nope just following through on my promise that I'm done with the topic. As I posted before. Thought you should know I'm not ignoring you. You got to make the last point. That's all.
     
  19. Azlen

    Azlen Active Member

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    Speaking of archenemies....It's like everyone who's visited this thread will be able to say they were there when it first started.
     
  20. john4200

    john4200 Active Member

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    I don't consider Tony an enemy. Can't people have a lively debate where you're from?
     

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