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Drive Expansion and Drive Upgrade FAQ

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by bkdtv, Oct 19, 2007.

  1. Aug 12, 2008 #1661 of 10248
    SeattleFred

    SeattleFred New Member

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    Apr 25, 2007
    I'm glad to report that there have been no further problems with my S3, 9.4 and FAP750.
     
  2. Aug 12, 2008 #1662 of 10248
    richsadams

    richsadams Active Member

    8,893
    2
    Jan 4, 2003
    Great news! Thanks for keeping us up to date. :up:
     
  3. Aug 13, 2008 #1663 of 10248
    Agent86

    Agent86 Registered Lurker

    574
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    Jan 18, 2002
    I just ordered a WD10EACS for internal use in my TiVo HD. The EACS was cheaper then the EVCS, and it appears to be about the same (or better) noise wise if I adjust the AAM with the Hitachi tool.

    Am I going to regret that? :confused:

    It looks like I should be fine...
     
  4. Aug 14, 2008 #1664 of 10248
    dwit

    dwit Active Member

    1,660
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    May 4, 2004
    Atlanta, GA
    Perfect for the Tivo HD. If you get the new 3 platter version, all the better. BTW, already posted here as working in the Tivo HD.

    Please post the extended model number you receive and from where purchased.

    Newest 3 platter version, model# WD10EACS-006DBO.

    "Older" 4 platter model# WD10EACS-00ZJB0.
     
  5. Aug 14, 2008 #1665 of 10248
    V7Goose

    V7Goose OTA ONLY and Loving It!

    384
    7
    May 28, 2005
    New Mexico...
    I finally divorced the FAP750 from my S3 - ran extended error tests on it and found many bad sectors. Clearly at least SOME of my problems were related to a bad drive, not the software!

    On a high note - I just completed the replacement of my internal drive with a WD10EVCS 1TB and married it with an Apricorn 1TB DVR Xpander. Whole thing went off without a hitch using WinMFS 9.1. Booted up great the first time. I now have a 2TB S3 with 265 hrs of HD/2512 SD!

    I chose not to use the Supersize option, since it said it was new, didn't really explain what it did, and I figured I didn't need to risk it for only an additional 13 hours HD per terabyte.
     
  6. Aug 14, 2008 #1666 of 10248
    richsadams

    richsadams Active Member

    8,893
    2
    Jan 4, 2003
    Thanks for continuing to keep us posted and congrats on the upgrade! I've used the Apricorn DVR Xpander and it worked flawlessly. :up: Even though it has a fan it did get pretty hot, but never once caused any issues.

    MFS Supersize simply frees up extra space reserved for storing tivoclips; the advertising videos that are downloaded. You can turn it on and gain a little more space any time...not that you'll probably be needing it! :)
     
  7. Aug 16, 2008 #1667 of 10248
    flar

    flar Member

    150
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    Mar 17, 2003
    San...
    Hi jlib, many thanks for posting all of this information. I was curious about another peculiarity of the DB35 series, though...

    On page 31 of Seagate's Product Manual for the DB35 drives, they mention responding to a command called "Read DMA without retries (C9h)" which is not listed in the streaming command set (in fact it is listed as "obsolete" in the spec you link to above). But it sounds like it would be perfect for TiVo's needs as a conditional replacement for the regular "read DMA" command without having to implement support for a whole new command/feature set. There are other similar "without retries" variants of some of the other read commands as well.
     
  8. Aug 16, 2008 #1668 of 10248
    jlib

    jlib Lean Forward

    1,063
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    Nov 21, 2002
    Carmel...
    I can only hazard a guess and that is was a ATA 1 (when it first appeared) single-word DMA era relic, a performance enhancement that was no longer needed with the transition from ATA 4 (40 pin cable, Ultra DMA 2, 33.3 MB/s) to ATA 5 (80 pin cable, Ulta DMA 4, 66.6 MB/s), when it received obsolete status. The fact that the command has been obsoleted since the beginning of the century pretty much means there is no practical use for it. Reading from memory (even with wait states and retries) is not going to compare to the bottleneck reading or writing to a hard drive with errors might cause. So, it is probably something not worth excercising brain cells on. :p
     
  9. Aug 19, 2008 #1669 of 10248
    efreedenburg

    efreedenburg New Member

    12
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    Feb 5, 2001
    Bel Air,...
    Follow up.

    Got the RMA for my MX-1, that has fixed the above problems.

    It's running perfectly for 2 weeks.

    Thanks for your help
    ed
     
  10. Aug 20, 2008 #1670 of 10248
    flar

    flar Member

    150
    0
    Mar 17, 2003
    San...
    I'm not sure what these comments have to do with my original point which is that the DB35 drives implement 3 flavors of read commands and 2 flavors of write commands (some of them DMA and some of them non-DMA) which all have the modifier "without retries". The key feature of the command that I mentioned was that it had that "without retries" modifier, not that it was DMA.

    A set of commands that works without retries would be great for video streams to avoid locking up the drive with unnecessary error handling and that has nothing to do with memory bandwidth or obsolete forms of DMA, but everything to do with keeping the drive accessible during time-critical reads and writes of non-bit-for-bit-critical video data.

    I'm not sure about ATA-1, but some older ATA documents that I read listed the command codes as forms of read and write, but didn't state their exact functions, claiming that they weren't for use by hosts. The DB35 drives list the commands with descriptions and lo and behold those descriptions are very appropos for the needs of video data. They are only listed as "obsolete" in later documents that describe more advanced forms of media streaming support and I can imagine that in the presence of a whole architecture aimed at video streaming that a couple of commands that simply omit error recovery are going to be relatively obsolete.

    The comments I was responding to were statements that since TiVo boxes don't implement the new media streaming feature sets then various "DVR" drives don't have any features that would help. In this case I'm pointing out a small set of very simple commands on the DB35s that might indeed help even if the TiVo software doesn't implement the newer all-out media streaming support.
     
  11. Aug 21, 2008 #1671 of 10248
    jlib

    jlib Lean Forward

    1,063
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    Nov 21, 2002
    Carmel...
    It is very rare to have memory with errors (most regular PCs don't even have error correcting circuits in their memory modules). It is no wonder those memory read and write commands are obsoleted. But it is not uncommon for hard drives to develop errors which could be problematic for recording data that has a near realtime urgency. What you seem to be looking for is a RAID Edition drive. Western Digital makes the best ones. That way you will get the default lazy error correction without needing the TiVo to implement commands that are not in its design.

    The ideal scenario will be if the next generation TiVo implements the streaming commands (particularly the urgent bit) for recordings and regular commands for more critical operating system functions (allowing full use of DVR drive features). As it is now, one has to choose one or the other. Either a standard/dvr drive that uses aggressive error correction with the TiVo or a RAID Edition drive that has Time-Limited Error Recovery. There is even a utility that will adjust the TLER on WD drives that do not have it enabled by default. This is starting to get out of the scope of this thread but you can find more info doing a search on TLER.
     
  12. Aug 21, 2008 #1672 of 10248
    jlb

    jlb NCC-1701-D

    8,141
    8
    Dec 13, 2001
    Newburyport, MA
    A quick note (I also noted this in the "Expander on sale" thread), but both Amazon and Newegg have discounted the Expander to $135 this morning. I am jumping in today.

    I ordered from Amazon as the 1m SIIG cable is $12+ versus $14+ from Newegg. Also, I don't know if the cable would have qualified for free shipping at Newegg (though the drive would have).

    The free Super Saver shipping at Amazon should get the drive to me on/around Friday, September 5-Monday, September 8. Though some shows start before that, the bulk start the week of the 22nd.
     
  13. Aug 21, 2008 #1673 of 10248
    GregComeLately

    GregComeLately New Member

    119
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    Nov 27, 2006
    western...
    Buy.com has This $129.99 deal for a 1TB WD GP drive. At least, that's the drive they've been using so far. You can knock the price down further with a 5% coupon to bring the price down to $124 -ish shipped.

    There is some talk that they've been using a new 3 platter version of the 1TB drive - model #WD10EACS-006DB0.

    The previous was the old 4 platter design we know and love (or not. i.e., us S3 owners) - model #WD10EACS-00ZJB0.

    So a bunch of you get this to find out and if it's the new drive version, then install them in your S3's and let us know what happens. I don't ask for much. ;)
     
  14. Aug 21, 2008 #1674 of 10248
    jlib

    jlib Lean Forward

    1,063
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    Nov 21, 2002
    Carmel...
    That looks like a clear out of the 4-platter version. Just 4 months ago Buy.com was selling them for $50 more and that was a pretty good deal then. This one should be irresistible (even if it is from buy.com).
     
  15. Aug 21, 2008 #1675 of 10248
    thomaslue

    thomaslue New Member

    79
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    Aug 17, 2004
    But your link to Buy.com goes to a Calvary CAIS01000.
    That's not even on the approved list at FAQ #27...
     
  16. Aug 21, 2008 #1676 of 10248
    jlib

    jlib Lean Forward

    1,063
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    Nov 21, 2002
    Carmel...
    Calvary is a Value Added Reseller (VAR). Western Digital is their Original Equipment Manufactuer (OEM). You can count all the actual drive manufacturers on one hand.
     
  17. Aug 21, 2008 #1677 of 10248
    jlb

    jlb NCC-1701-D

    8,141
    8
    Dec 13, 2001
    Newburyport, MA
    Quick question, I know it should be ok either way, but is there a perferred orientation for the expander drive (vertical or horizontal)?

    My cat sometime likes to try and climb into the space around where the equipment is and a horizontal orientation will be more sturdy.......
     
  18. Aug 21, 2008 #1678 of 10248
    GregComeLately

    GregComeLately New Member

    119
    0
    Nov 27, 2006
    western...
    expanding upon what jlib has said, all Calvary has done is added their backup software to this Western Digital drive. You don't need to use it though.

    As one of the user reviewers states: "Ditch the software (unless you're actually buying this for a backup solution) and use the drive for media storage".
     
  19. Aug 21, 2008 #1679 of 10248
    ehgreen

    ehgreen A Quiet Observer

    10
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    Apr 28, 2002
    Cape Cod
    Tips on moving a WD 500g Expander from a SA 8300 HD to TiVo HD or S/3

    Everything says recorded data is lost moving between LIKE machines. But what about startup capabilities on a Second manufacturer's recording machine?

    Are the "boot" sequences the same? Do both recorders use the same data storage formats? same indexing? Is the drive automatically reformatted everytime it is plugged in to a new serial number? any firmware or SW on the drive, or all via the recorder?

    What are the "good practices" for a user before he turns in his cable box and "just" wants to move his previously working drive to work on his TiVo? What else might one do to maybe "try" to save some programs?
     
  20. Aug 21, 2008 #1680 of 10248
    greg_burns

    greg_burns Now in HD

    6,384
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    May 21, 2004
    Slower...
    Moving an external drive from SA 8300HD to a Tivo is not going to preserve any recordings. The Tivo will just see it as a new drive and ask if you want to start using it. You cannot even move drives between Tivos (for different reasons).
     

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