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Drive Expansion and Drive Upgrade FAQ

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by bkdtv, Oct 19, 2007.

  1. Aug 7, 2013 #9661 of 10248
    jmbach

    jmbach der Neuerer

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    Did you use WinMFS or MFSLive to do the expansion.
    WinMFS has an option to add an external drive that might work better.
     
  2. Aug 7, 2013 #9662 of 10248
    Sevenfeet

    Sevenfeet Gentle Giant

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    I used MFSlive. I couldn't get WinMFS to recognize the drive, even hung off my laptop's SATA port. I'm not sure what I did wrong. MFSlive (and Linux) did see the drive so I proceeded with that.
     
  3. Aug 7, 2013 #9663 of 10248
    jmbach

    jmbach der Neuerer

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    I have seen that happen if you don't run WinMFS with administrator privileges. Might try to divorce the extender drive (usually by unplugging it and booting the tivo) and then restored attach the drive to see if it will initialize and pair the drive up. If not, try WinMFS again with administration privileges to pair the drive. There used to be a KS code you can use to pair the drive. KS 62 was the code. It's still present but was made superfluous because the tivo is supposed to automatically initialize the extender drive once it is plugged in. Could not hurt to try if everything else fails.
     
  4. Aug 7, 2013 #9664 of 10248
    ThAbtO

    ThAbtO TiVoholic by the bay

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    Why would you need to add the expander drive when it will just add on a point to failure. If either drive should fail, your recordings will not be recoverable. You can only add the external with both hooked up to the computer and in WinMFS, with admin rights, I believe its MFSAdd.

    With the 1 TB drive, you should have 157 HD Hrs of storage.
     
  5. Aug 7, 2013 #9665 of 10248
    ThreeSoFar

    ThreeSoFar FourNow...WaitFive

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    This. Don't bother.
     
  6. Sep 7, 2013 #9666 of 10248
    Keen

    Keen Member

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    Aug 2, 2009
    Minneapolis, MN
    Just used jmfs to move my Tivo to a new hard drive. My Tivo's been acting a little flakey for months, and it randomly rebooted and hung last week. So I grabbed a new drive and copied my existing drive over.

    At 60MB/sec, the 2TB drive took a good long while to copy, which I left it to do overnight. In the morning, it had completed without seeing any errors on my old drive. Hopefully this fixes the infrequent hangs I've been seeing, and the hang during reboot.
     
  7. Sep 8, 2013 #9667 of 10248
    sfhub

    sfhub Active Member

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    So I've only read the FAQs on the first page, but was there some recent change in 11.0k...m for OLED S3 that allows for larger the 1TiB MFS partitions. That was the impression I got from the procedure above.
     
  8. Sep 8, 2013 #9668 of 10248
    unitron

    unitron Active Member

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    semi-coastal NC
    Yeah, it's been confirmed that you can use a 2TB in any S3, the 648, the 652, the 658, and WinMFS will do the job (but you have to do the expand as a separate step instead of accepting the offer at the end of the copy/restore, for some reason), no need for jmfs, provided you're installing an image that's updated at least to 11.0k (which has been around for a few years now, so it's rare not to have it), or provided you do not expand until letting it phone home and update to k (or maybe straight to m).

    jmfs still needed for S4s, though, if you want to copy and expand.
     
  9. Sep 8, 2013 #9669 of 10248
    sfhub

    sfhub Active Member

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    Awesome, thanks for the info.

    I had the failing/bulging caps that I replaced only to find I also had a dying HD. I haven't been around these forums in a while so I had no idea 11.0k added that feature (updated kernel?) To give perspective, my last backup of the OS is 8.1.1.

    So is this a reasonable way to upgrade now for 2TB OLED S3 (assuming old image)
    1. Prepare drive
      • DD original image
      • hdparm -M 128
      • wdidle3 (if necessary)
    2. allow OS to upgrade to 11.0k (11.0m in my case)
    3. winmfs mfsadd
    4. winmfs supersize
    Is there a better procedure?

    From reading past posts, you are pretty much on top of everything. Is there something conclusive about the 4K/512e advanced format on the WD20EURS drive. Is it a situation where there is initial success but issues develop over time, or is everything just theoretical. If there are actual issues, then I'll try and get an older 512b drive, but it will probably take some effort.

    As an aside, I have an ESR tester for bad caps and tested them in-circuit (unplugged of course).

    Only 2 tested bad, so I replaced those. There were 3 that looked ok, except one had tiny bulge, but could have been my imagination. It tested fine so I didn't replace it. Still had some issues with unstable svideo output, so I went back and looked more closely.

    Turns out my late night tired eyes were fooled and I didn't realize those 3 caps are in parallel, so the in-circuit ESR testing was useless. Anyway, replaced all 3 as it turns out after testing out of circuit, 2 of 3 were bad, though one had no signs of bulge and I figured with the high ESR on the failed caps, the remaining cap probably took on more of the burden so its days might be numbered.
     
  10. Sep 8, 2013 #9670 of 10248
    ThAbtO

    ThAbtO TiVoholic by the bay

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    The 11.0m (9.3.2c in Series 2) version was just a fix for the cookie bug that stopped downloads.
     
  11. Sep 8, 2013 #9671 of 10248
    sfhub

    sfhub Active Member

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    Thanks, from the standpoint of upgrading drives, 11.0m should have the same change as in 11.0k to support > 1.1TB partitions, correct?
     
  12. Sep 8, 2013 #9672 of 10248
    jmbach

    jmbach der Neuerer

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    More than likely since my 2TB OLED S3 updated from 11.0k to 11.0m with no loss of functionality.
     
  13. Sep 8, 2013 #9673 of 10248
    unitron

    unitron Active Member

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    What part of the country are you and your ESR meter in?

    If the AF of the WD20EURS was going to cause a problem in S3s, I think enough of us are running them that we'd have run into it by now.

    I don't know exactly what's wrong with the drive you have in your 648 currently, or how long it's going to last.

    Are there shows on there that you particularly want to try to save?

    Do you have a PC running Windows XP or newer and WinMFS installed on it?

    Can you open it up and attach two SATA drives directly to SATA ports?

    If not, have you got USB-to-SATA adapters?

    Do you have a freezer and paper towels?

    Have you burned yourself a bootable copy of the MFS Live cd v1.4 and made sure you can boot that PC from it?

    Have you made yourself a bootable copy of the current Ultimate Boot CD?
     
  14. Sep 9, 2013 #9674 of 10248
    sfhub

    sfhub Active Member

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    My original drive actually seemed usable and after replacing the caps, the unit booted again, but I was getting some random reboots and some svideo instability.

    In an effort to determine if the drive was the issue I thought I should run a kickstart 54. Kickstart 54 actual tests came back passed, except the SMART query came back with some error #7. Drive could still boot and playback shows, but would randomly reboot half an hour to an hour in, sometimes on playback, sometimes just doing menu operations.

    Instead of assuming the drive was going and immediately starting recovery operations (which I now realize I should have done), I thought maybe there were more caps to replace but I wanted to further rule out the drive so I naively thought I should run kickstart 57.

    It said it would take 3hrs and was chugging along for about 2hrs, then it rebooted and got stuck in a GSOD loop. I don't know if the drive is actually bad because I timed the GSOD loop and it always rebooted exactly 89 seconds into the GSOD screen, so could be the drive, or something kickstart 57 depends on isn't right. I checked my records and I had added 375mb swap space originally, but it was so long ago, I might have had issues with the bug with swap space signatures > 127mb.

    I tried sticking the drive on a winxpsp3 asus box and ran WinMFS but it wouldn't recognize the drive as a TiVo drive, so at this point I figured I could spend another unknown amount of time figuring out if I can recover enough of the drive to salvage shows or I could just image a new drive. I went the latter route because I needed some shows to get recorded.

    I've already restored an original image onto a 1TB 512b drive and it is up and running, but I haven't spent any time trying to salvage shows on the old drive yet.

    So I came on here seeing if there was more info about the GSOD loop and ended up reading about advances in drive upgrades. I was surprised to find out the 1TB barrier was passed with 11.0k. I started thinking since I have the unit out and disassembled, I might as well put in a 2TB drive. I read about AF and what I thought were theoretical problems, but then I read something about Tluxon and some FF/Rew issues he had over time.

    So where I am at now is I have a fully working unit on the 1TB 512b drive.

    I am resolved to lose my shows, but will make some attempt at recovering the 750GB Seagate DB35.3 drive.

    In parallel I am trying to decide if I should purchase a WD20EURS drive and do the 2TB upgrade. The WD20EURS seems like a great drive for an upgrade except for this AF black cloud that seems to surround it. I can try and get a refurb 512b drive, but I'm really wondering if it is worth the effort, especially if these are just theoretical rather than actual issues.

    I went through and looked at the original partitions on the OLED S3 and it looks like they are not 4k aligned at all:
    Code:
      Original Partition Map
      Partition map (with 512 byte blocks) on '/dev/hda'
       #:                type name                        length   base      ( size )
       1: Apple_partition_map Apple                           63 @ 1
       2:               Image Bootstrap 1                      1 @ 268618469
       3:               Image Kernel 1                      8192 @ 268618470 (  4.0M)
       4:                Ext2 Root 1                      524288 @ 268626662 (256.0M)
       5:               Image Bootstrap 2                      1 @ 269150950
       6:               Image Kernel 2                      8192 @ 269150951 (  4.0M)
       7:                Ext2 Root 2                      524288 @ 269159143 (256.0M)
       8:                Swap Linux swap                  262144 @ 269683431 (128.0M)
       9:                Ext2 /var                        524288 @ 269945575 (256.0M)
      10:                 MFS MFS application region      589824 @ 270469863 (288.0M)
      11:                 MFS MFS media region         216747657 @ 271649511 (103.4G)
      12:                 MFS MFS application region 2    589824 @ 271059687 (288.0M)
      13:                 MFS MFS media region 2       268618405 @ 64        (128.1G)
    
    I am not sure if it really matters because I don't even know if TiVo internally tries to write out in 4096 blocks or respects 4k blocks once the partitions are aligned. I can imagine that making every write a read-modify-write cycle would be inefficient and possibly result in more wear/tear, but possibly WD handles this in cache before it ever gets to the drive.

    So I think I will go with a 2TB upgrade and I'm thinking of getting a WD20EURS drive but haven't purchased it yet. I am willing to try and get a 512b 2TB drive if I can find one from a realiable source and it isn't outrageously expensive.

    If I get the WD20EURS I'm trying to figure out if I need to spend some effort getting the partitions 4k-aligned. I was originally planning on a DD then a WinMFS mfsadd but since the original partitions are completely not aligned, that seems to not have any advantage as far as 4k-alignment goes.

    As an aside, does mfslive 1.4 mfsadd also work for > 1TB adds?

    I'd normally just go and do some experiments, but these 250GB/750GB/1TB/2TB disk operations all take significant time and doing everything "right" the first time around will probably save a lot of frustration.

    Sorry if this is TLDR, I'm hopeful someone takes the time to lend their expertise and push me on the right path if I am headed the wrong direction.
     
  15. Sep 9, 2013 #9675 of 10248
    sfhub

    sfhub Active Member

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    So I had another question about alignment and how partitions map to physical blocks.
    Code:
       #:                type name                        length   base      ( size )
     1: Apple_partition_map Apple                           63 @ 1
    ...
    13:                 MFS MFS media region 2       268618405 @ 64        (128.1G)
    
    When the partition map lists base of partition #1 as 1, does the numbering system start at "1" or "0"?

    I think it starts at "0" and the first block is the boot record. So in this case
    Code:
    block
    0      MBR
    1 -63  Apple_partition_map
    64-... MFS medial region 2
    
    If this is correct, I'd want the base of the media partitions to all be evenly divisible by 4.

    However if this is incorrect and the 1st block actually starts at "1", then I'd want all the divisions to end in .25

    I know from past experience, it is easy to get "off by 1" errors if not being very specific about where things start.

    Also since mfscopy (mfslive/restore) is moving partitions around anyway, has someone tried modifying it to 4k align the partitions when it moves them around? It doesn't even need to adjust the partition sizes, just needs to skip enough blocks to align the partitions and adjust the start/end of the zones.
     
  16. Sep 9, 2013 #9676 of 10248
    sfhub

    sfhub Active Member

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    Jan 6, 2007
    According to this article
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Partition_Map

    For Apple Partition Map systems every block is mapped out, except for Block 0, which is the Driver Descriptor Map.

    That means the most obvious and easy way to figure out 4k alignment is to have the base block evenly divisible by 4 (which is what everyone has been doing already).

    So the above example looks like this:
    Code:
    block
    0      Driver Descriptor Map
    1 -63  Apple_partition_map
    64-... MFS medial region 2
    
    So back to the previous question, since it seems mfslive/restore is already moving stuff around has anybody looked into adding the appropriate "spacing" to keep everything 4k-aligned?

    Is it possible to just change the start/end of the partitions and zone information so they are 4k aligned, leaving unreferenced "spacers" in between? Or does every block on disk need to be accounted for in an Apple Partition Map, in which case you could create small dummy partitions.
     
  17. Sep 9, 2013 #9677 of 10248
    unitron

    unitron Active Member

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    If one is going to run SMART tests on a drive, it's probably better to take it out of the TiVo and use the manufacturer's diagnostic software.

    Since WinMFS will let you use a 2TB on S3s now that 11.0k will let the TiVo handle partitions bigger than 1TB (or 1.2 or whatever), I never bothered spending time experimenting with MFS Live to see if it would.

    WinMFS isn't exactly brand new, and MFS Live is even older.

    I think the WD20EURS is one of those 4k physical/512 virtual drives, meaning it does any necessary bit juggling instead of the TiVo having to.

    Like I said...

    "If the AF of the WD20EURS was going to cause a problem in S3s, I think enough of us are running them that we'd have run into it by now."
     
  18. Sep 9, 2013 #9678 of 10248
    sfhub

    sfhub Active Member

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    Do you know if WinMFS will add the zones to the existing partition 15 if you add a 2nd time. ie you went from 250GB->1TB->2TB After 250GB->1TB you'd have partition 14/15 (for historical reasons). Now when you try to reupgrade an upgraded drive it could do a single partition 16 (instead of the traditional pair) or it could add the zone to the existing partition or it could just not work.

    I'm hoping it justs adds the zone to the existing partition 15.

    I understand what you are saying, I just like to understand what I'm getting myself into.

    All (or almost all) 4k drives are 4k physical/512 virtual, but not all 4k/512 are the same. Western Digital recommends alignment while Seagate does "SmartAlign" which is their predictive cache/lookahead read that is supposed to reduce the occurence of read-modify-write even without alignment.

    The issue with all these 4k drives is not whether they will work. Clearly as you say they do. The performance issues, even with benchmarks happens only with random writes. With sequential writes they perform at almost normal speed even if not aligned. The reads are virtually not affected by non-alignment even if random. So you are just left with random writes, where the performance goes down the tubes, probably 3-4x slower.

    I'm worried that a newly upgraded TiVo with lots of free space will mostly be doing sequential writes, but over time if you fill up the drive with different size SD/HD shows and remove them, things could get fragmented, shifting you into the random write situation.

    As an aside has someone filled up their 2TB drive completely yet? Was the old 1TB partition size error something that would immediately show up at startup or something you'd see later on when the drive filled up?

    Alternatively has someone verified the 11.0k kernel actually supports > 1TiB partitions or is it just by experimentation with WinMFS?

    I saw something about Jamie having made some signed int->unsigned int change to his custom kernel to support 2TiB partitions, then some waiting game to see if TiVo incorporated the changes, but I never was able to find talk about the kernel changes being included 11.0k other than the experimentations with WinMFS and conclusion that it works.

    I am sorry for asking so many questions. While this stuff is probably common knowledge, I'm time-warped from 5yrs ago, so it is somewhat new to me.
     
  19. Sep 10, 2013 #9679 of 10248
    Soapm

    Soapm Active Member

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    So close,...
    WinMFS will always add pairs. Only JMFS can add a single partition. You can also try mfsadd tool from the other forum.


    I had 2TB drives in two Tivo's for probably two years now so I will assume they're as full as a Tivo will allow them to be and the shows record and play just fine. There might be performance issues but they're not visible using the Tivo.

    It's like beefing up your engine to continue to drive 65mph when the car went 65mph with no strain before.

    I'm no technical expert but I recall seeing that fragmentation isn't a problem with the MFS design. I think the compensation was in the design.

    I don't think the problem was the kernel. I've used nuetered stock kernels since installing this drive and I have a 1.6 gig partition that's worked since day one. I don't know why TivoHD weren't accepting WinMFS drives before 11.0k but I don't think it was the kernel. However, I used JMFS on my drives so I don't know if that made a difference but I would think 1.6 gig is 1.6 gigs.

    You can also see that JMFS added a single partition.

    Code:
    Partition map (with 512 byte blocks) on '/dev/hda'
     #:                type name                         length   base       ( size )
     1: Apple_partition_map Apple                            63 @ 1          (  31.5K)
     2:               Image Bootstrap 1                       1 @ 309549120
     3:               Image Kernel 1                       8192 @ 309549121  (   4.0M)
     4:                Ext2 Root 1                       524288 @ 309557313  ( 256.0M)
     5:               Image Bootstrap 2                       1 @ 310081601
     6:               Image Kernel 2                       8192 @ 310081602  (   4.0M)
     7:                Ext2 Root 2                       524288 @ 310089794  ( 256.0M)
     8:                Swap Linux swap                   262144 @ 310614082  ( 128.0M)
     9:                Ext2 /var                         524288 @ 310876226  ( 256.0M)
    10:                 MFS MFS application region       589824 @ 311400514  ( 288.0M)
    11:                 MFS MFS media region          137629696 @ 171919424  (  65.6G)
    12:                 MFS MFS application region 2     589824 @ 311990338  ( 288.0M)
    13:                 MFS MFS media region 2        171919360 @ 64         (  81.9G)
    14:          Apple_Free Extra                          1645 @ 312580162  ( 822.5K)
    15:                 MFS MFS media region 3       3594447361 @ 312581807  (   1.6T)
     
  20. Sep 10, 2013 #9680 of 10248
    unitron

    unitron Active Member

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    Actually it sounds like you may know some stuff about hard drives that I don't.

    Anyway, if you start with a Series 1 that had a small enough hard drive, the image would have one MFS application region partition and one MFS media region partition, the proverbial "MFS pair".

    Everything after that came with 2 MFS pairs, for a total of 13 partitions.

    If you copied to a larger drive, you could expand (with MFS Tools or its successor MFS Live, or with WinMFS) by adding a third MFS pair, partitions 14 and 15.

    If you copied that to yet a larger drive, it turns out that WinMFS can let you expand by making partition 15 larger.

    I don't think MFS Live can do that, and won't be able to experiment to find out anytime soon.

    Before I discovered (by way of someone else discovering it) that WinMFS would do what I needed, I used it to copy to a 1TB and expand (it won't leave a tiny little "Apple Free" partition the way I could never keep MFS Live from doing), filling up that 1TB drive with 15 partitions.

    I then copied that to a 2TB drive using the jmfs cd and let it expand by adding a 16th partition.

    (I learned the hard way that jmfs cannot detect and make use of an Apple Free partition the way WinMFS can, so if there is one of any size as the 16th partition on a drive, when you copy that drive to a larger one and expand with jmfs, it creates a 17th partition after that Apple Free one, and on booting the TiVo thinks it has an external drive gone bad hooked up and insists on divorcing it, which means the TiVo deletes that 17th partition and turns your 2TB drive back into one with only 1TB usable)

    With all due respect to comer, who gave us jmfs (which is still the only way to expand an S4 drive that I know of), since WinMFS will handle S3 upgrades just fine as long as you're already up to 11.0k or later, I don't see any reason to use anything else, unless you only have a Mac laptop, in which case you're probably stuck with MFS Live if the laptop will boot from it.
     

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