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Drive Expansion and Drive Upgrade FAQ

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by bkdtv, Oct 19, 2007.

  1. Jun 30, 2013 #9581 of 10248
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    In my opinion, they are not aligned, if you order for a model that would not have had a 4K aligned original drive. I bought 2TB drives for both the Premiere TCD746320 (2-tuner, 320GB), and the TiVo HD TCD652160, from DVR_DUDE. The factory partition tables for the Premiere remain exactly as they were on a stock drive, with all the extra space tacked onto the end of the drive, with a small apple_free partition, at the end of that (which I wonder what it is there for, or if it serves a necessary purpose I'm unaware of, other than an unusable placeholder, or if it is deliberate). The TiVo HD drive is giving me some difficulty in reading the partition map. I just ASSUME that if he doesn't align a Premiere drive, he doesn't align a TiVo HD drive. He also ships the drives with old TiVo factory-installed software revisions. This makes the shipping software for the HD, on his drives, non-2TB supporting, so it raises a lot of doubt for the HD. If the 2TB Premiere map (the stock portion) had been altered, in any way, I doubt that JMFS would recognize it, and let you use the guided menus, as opposed to having to drop to the command prompt to use dd_rescue, like the 2TB HD requires, if you want to clone/copy it.

    I'll triple check, and make sure I'm not missing something, when I can free up the time and resources to take another look. Maybe just the stocks parts are misaligned, but the added space MIGHT be. I'll take another look.
     
  2. Jun 30, 2013 #9582 of 10248
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    You are reading my mind, very well, I would say.

    Basically, use an existing 4K aligned partition structure, with the software from one that wouldn't be. I can't wait to hear how your experiments turn out! :up: :)
     
  3. Jun 30, 2013 #9583 of 10248
    ThAbtO

    ThAbtO TiVoholic by the bay

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    I just made the Ultimate Boot CD and tried it. Yet, I haven't figured out what drive spec is my CD/DVD drive is at (Usually its d: ).
     
  4. Jun 30, 2013 #9584 of 10248
    dougdingle

    dougdingle HD Tech

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    Jul 4, 2007
    West Coast
    Yes. Last drive change I did about two weeks ago took FOREVER to update the data. At least an hour, likely more, since I got bored and walked away.
     
  5. Jul 1, 2013 #9585 of 10248
    jmbach

    jmbach der Neuerer

    1,551
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    I experimented with this several months back. It seems to work. The added benefit is that you can add an external TiVo expander drive.

    Here is what I did.

    Put 758 image on a 2TB drive and booted in the 748. Did a KS 52 to be on the safe side. Did its thing and booted up fine. Did not notice any loss of function.

    Then I modified Block 0 to a 748 block. Booted and ran without problems.

    Then I modified the APM by nulling out the data in the reserved sections of each block. (The 4 turner premieres have a modified APM that adds extra information in a reserved section of each block of the APM. I do not know the meaning of this. My supposition is that perhaps TiVo is making the move to drives larger than 2TB while still maintaining the basic OS setup.) Booted and ran without problems.

    Then I copied the root, kernel, and var partitions over from my 1 TB 748 drive to this 2tb drive. Again, it booted and ran just fine.

    My testing was limited to running through the menus, changing channels, and trying a recording. Did not test any apps or anything else.

    Would be interested if ggieseke experience is similar.
     
  6. Jul 1, 2013 #9586 of 10248
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    Cool. I only wish I had to knowledge to do the editing/nullifying that you did. I'm looking to do this on 746 units (I don't have any Premieres other than TCD746320 models). I'm willing to contribute in any way I can, or am capable of. Anything I can do to help?

    I'd like to PM over the partition structures of the 2TB drives for the Premiere TCD746320 and HD TCD652160, I bought from DVR_DUDE (I'm not going to do it publicly). What would be the best way for me to read the maps, and pipe/re-direct the output to a text file I can provide?
     
  7. Jul 1, 2013 #9587 of 10248
    tluxon

    tluxon Member

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    Feb 28, 2002
    Kirkland, WA
    I have a warranty replacement re-certified HGST (Hitachi) 1TB drive that has 512 byte sectors (mfd early 2010). It's a HDS721010CLA332 (7200 RPM, 32MB Cache, 512 byte sectors) that was sent as a replacement drive for a failed WHSv1 drive. It's not really designed for use as an audio-video drive, but I'm very curious to see if it wouldn't be a better 'transition' drive for until I learn more about the possibility of using a 2TB drive with 4K-aligned media partitions.

    As I see it, the problem with putting all my eggs in the 2TB basket now is that if a method is devised to properly align the partitions, it will almost certainly preclude 'upgrading' an unaligned 2TB drive due to having to move some of the partitions up in address. For that reason, I think it's reasonable to limit any upgrades to sub-2TB drives unless loss of recorded shows during an upgrade is acceptable.

    Speaking of loss of recorded shows - can unflagged (copy-freely) shows be saved off of a retired TiVo drive to a Linux computer? Or is everything encrypted with an unknown/unusable key?
     
  8. Jul 1, 2013 #9588 of 10248
    lpwcomp

    lpwcomp Active Member

    8,075
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    May 6, 2002
    John's...
    If you're asking if recordings can be extracted from a TiVo drive attached to your computer, the answer is no.
     
  9. Jul 1, 2013 #9589 of 10248
    tluxon

    tluxon Member

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    Feb 28, 2002
    Kirkland, WA
    I went ahead and swapped out the in-use-1-week WD20EURS for the 1TB Hitachi with the 512 byte sectors this morning, so tonight I'll see if I can notice any difference in how well it handles a couple high bitrate buffers while watching a third high bitrate recording with a lot of FF'ing and REW'ing.
    Do you know if that's due to encryption of the media partitions, the individual files, both, or some other reason?

    I'm curious because I haven't yet discovered if the upgrade utilities we're using are just doing a bit-for-bit copy of the source drive or if there was any partition-by-partition copying being done.

    Also, if I'm going to experiment with various drives with regards to the 4K alignment issue, there may be occasions when I have more new recordings I want to preserve than can be transferred normally to other TiVos in a timely manner. If we know enough about the filesystem to be successfully copying partitions and hopefully being able to 'move' them into 4K alignment, I figured there would be some way of parsing out some of the data.
     
  10. Jul 1, 2013 #9590 of 10248
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Cox Cable...
    I've seen reports of people ONLY copying certain partitions, but they were system-related ones, for the purpose of reviving a corrupted system.

    As far as any media/recordings:
    If you can't copy it to another TiVo or computer over the NETWORK, kiss it goodbye. While people have done things to much older TiVo models, in order to save protected recordings, that topic is not to be discussed on these forums. Even if I knew a way, which I don't, I couldn't mention it here, or give you any suggestions on what to try.

    If you do find a way, I wouldn't suggest telling anybody, here, unless it's through a private email, or the other forum which we are prohibited from linking to, or even typing out the full name of.

    As far as your potential hard drive: You had better check the current draw ratings, and compare it to a stock drive, or a green 2TB model. If it draws too much current, or requires a lot to spin-up, you could stress the power supply. This is the biggest reason most people don't use 7200RPM drives in their TiVos. The second part is the amount of heat a 7200RPM generates, and the TiVo's limited ability to cool the drive, thus stressing the drive.
     
  11. Jul 1, 2013 #9591 of 10248
    tluxon

    tluxon Member

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    Feb 28, 2002
    Kirkland, WA
    I forgot about the power draw factor. The Hitachi seemed to start up quickly this morning, but I had to head to work before I really did anything with it.

    That puts a whole new perspective on things. I know the Hitachi got pretty warm in the Windows Home Server, and that was with a slow speed fan moving air directly across it. Now I'm concerned for the power supply in the TiVo, and even moreso now that we're having very warm weather today. I'm thinking that the advantage of positioning myself for a future 4K alignment solution is trumped by my concern for the longevity of the power supply.

    Would you agree? Would you stick the WD20EURS back in rather than the Hitachi 7200 - even with the difference of a 512 byte sector drive?

    Hmmm...
     
  12. Jul 1, 2013 #9592 of 10248
    ggieseke

    ggieseke Active Member

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    May 30, 2008
    So far so good. I took a WD20EURS that I had previously zeroed, did a DvrBARS quick restore of the 758 image, and dropped it in the 748.

    It upgraded itself to the right software without a KS52, and surprisingly it didn't even need a C&DE. I guess that since the 758 image was taken from a drive that had never been booted it may not need that step.

    When I get a chance later in the week I'm going to extract the ext2 & MFS partitions to my PC and compare them to the the 748 files.
     
  13. Jul 1, 2013 #9593 of 10248
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Cox Cable...
    Well, it's a judgment call that's hard to advise upon, without knowing the spin-up and running power requirements of the potential drive. I also don't know how much power capacity is left for wiggle room (for the drive), once the draw of the other components is factored in. I've heard of people exceeding the capacity upon installation of a cablecard, as they were just within the boundaries before adding that load (which, can be diminished if the power supply output capacitors are near end-of-life). I'd definitely do a visual inspection for leaking, or bulging caps, at minimum. Then, I'd take a close look at the specifications for the drive's requirements.

    Then there's the heat-dissipation requirements of the drive. Hot drive equals shorter drive life. As for the heat that it generates passing over everything else before it exits the fan, you'd be able to do a comparison of running temps of the processor from the system information screen, as well as the fan speed possibly kicking into high, as it is designed to do. If the fan speed tends to stay high, that would indicate you're pushing things.

    EDIT/ADD: I usually do a before-and-after comparison of the output voltages of the power supply. As long as the voltages don't drop too far (some would say that a maximum of ~20% variation of each voltage is acceptable, overall), I'd proceed and see what happens. The output voltages and amperage ratings are printed on the power supply board, or are on a sticker wrapped around the biggest capacitor, on the input side of it. Just be careful, since the heatsinks tend to be live, and resting your hand on the case, while probing can jolt you, if you touch a heatsink.
     
  14. Jul 1, 2013 #9594 of 10248
    c3

    c3 TiVoholic

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    Silicon...
    My parents' laptop died a couple of days ago. I don't think it was a coincidence that it happened on one of the hottest days here. Heat, noise, and power supply concerns are all good reasons NOT to put in a 7200RPM drive. I have not bought 7200RPM drives even for desktop use since the first WD Green drive came out.

    For TiVoHD, 4KB alignment can be easily achieved with dd of the original 160GB drive and mfstool mfsadd. dd takes less than an hour with SATA connections.
     
  15. Jul 1, 2013 #9595 of 10248
    tluxon

    tluxon Member

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    Kirkland, WA
    All things considered, I called home and had that TiVo shut down until I can get home to take another look at it.

    When I put the WD20EURS in it a week ago, my son (who's the real electronics guru of the house) and I took a really close look at all the capacitors and didn't see any bulging or any other warning signs. Unfortunately, I switched drives so quickly this morning due to running a little behind schedule that I forgot to take a look at them again. I'll compare the startup power requirements of both drives if I can find them, but I suspect the Hitachi will be more demanding. If it is, I won't even mess around with it in the TiVo - especially since it hasn't been geared for DVR-type usage.

    If I decide to give the Hitachi a chance, I'll check the voltage drop against that of the WD20EURS, but I'm leaning toward just sticking the WD20EURS back in and going with that, since I'll have almost zero time to babysit the TiVo until next week.
     
  16. Jul 1, 2013 #9596 of 10248
    tluxon

    tluxon Member

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    Feb 28, 2002
    Kirkland, WA
    Well, I was able to find some power requirement specs for the Hitachi, and it doesn't look as bad as I imagined. In fact, it looks far better than the Seagate DB35.3 drive I had been using for over 5 years.

    Seagate DB35.3 (750GB) - from http://www.seagate.com/docs/pdf/datasheet/disc/ds_db35_7200_3.pdf
    Startup Current (12 V typical, amps): 2.0
    Idle Average (watts): 9.3
    Standby/Sleep Mode (typical, watts): 0.8

    Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000.C (1TB) - from http://www.hgst.com/tech/techlib.nsf/techdocs/33586ADC145D59A086257603007B022E/$file/DS7K1000.C_DS_final.pdf
    Startup current (A, max.): 1.5 (+5V), 2.0 (+12V)
    Idle (W) 1TB: 4.4

    Western Digital WD20EARS (2TB) - from http://www.wdc.com/wdproducts/library/SpecSheet/ENG/2879-701250.pdf
    Average power requirements (Watts)
    Read/Write: 4.4
    Idle: 4.1
    Standby/Sleep: 0.6

    I wasn't able to find a startup current spec for the WD20EURS, but based on the other specs, I would expect it to be in the neighborhood of the Hitachi startup draw, or slightly less. I think the fact that the THD's power supply was driving the DB35.3 for over 5 years without apparent issue speaks well for it's prospects of running either the Hitachi or the WD20EURS. I guess I should start it back up and see how it performs with several high bitrate sources.
     
  17. Jul 2, 2013 #9597 of 10248
    ThAbtO

    ThAbtO TiVoholic by the bay

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    Late night, I tried to get the WD10EZRX hooked up to run WDidle3.

    My computer currently has 2 HDDs attached to SATA0 and via a HDD dock through SATA1. Booted up with WD10EZRX in the dock and windows HDD disconnected and using the Ultimate Boot CD. I found the UBcd has WDidle3 with it

    The idle timer was originally set for 12 seconds, and now successfully disabled.

    After that, removed the drive from the bay and replaced it with what I had, and reconnected the Windows drive. However, upon boot, computer complained of disk boot failure. After trying to figure out how to fix it, in Cmos, etc. in the end, I figured to just boot with the Windows drive and nothing in the dock bay.

    Next time, I will endeavor to install the new drive into the Tivo 540080. Previous install just got me stuck at the powering up screen.

    Edit: After the WDIdle3 worked and drive installed, had to go through guided setup twice with CD&E in between. 2 hours later, I now have 1268 hrs 31 min. I noticed while it was running CD&E, the red light in front was flashing, it was completed in about 20 min.
     
  18. Jul 4, 2013 #9598 of 10248
    unitron

    unitron Active Member

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    semi-coastal NC
    The WinMFS "optimized layout" has nothing to do with 512 versus 4k.

    If you look at a Series 1 partition map, all the MFS media partitions are at the end of the drive after everything else.

    Starting with the S2s, they moved one of the media partitions to the front, right behind the partition map, so that when the heads were over the operating system partitions, or the swap or whatever, they were in the middle and could get to either media partition by traveling only over half of the disk instead of all the way from front to back.

    That's the "optimized layout", which you probably don't want to use on a Series 1 for fear of confusing it, and do want to use on everything newer, but like I say, it has nothing to do with sector size.
     
  19. Jul 5, 2013 #9599 of 10248
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Cox Cable...
    Was this in response to somebody in particular? You didn't quote anybody.

    I'm fully aware that a TiVo WinMFS "optimized partition layout" has nothing to do with 4K/512e alignment. I'd still like to see upgrade options that provide both types of "optimizations".

    Some drive and software companies interchange the terms "aligned" and "optimized", when referring to the 4K/512e partition alignment. The use of the term "optimized" really only causes confusion with TiVo models that can be cloned/copied, and/or expanded, with WinMFS and when the matter of the drive sizes available at the time WinMFS was released, which were hard 512 byte sector size, is factored in.

    AFAIK, WinMFS really lays out the partitions for a S2, un-optimized, or optimized, and just happens to also work with S3/HD units, which is why it tends to mess up the partitions, no matter what method of layout you choose, and "optimized" may really only be so, if you are using it on a S2 unit.

    Like others have said, it's best to use DD, DD_RESCUE, JMFS, or other equivalent sector-by-sector cloning/copying utility, then use MFSadd to add the extra space. That way, WinMFS will leave the stock partitions alone.

    AFAIK, using WinMFS on a S3/HD TiVo, is much like how you can use JMFS on a S3/HD, but it was designed for a Premiere (kind of reverse interoperability factor, though).

    EDIT/ADD: I realized after typing this all out, that the S3 has some differences and can not always be lumped in with HD units, like I did repeatedly by saying "S3/HD". Example: JMFS does not recognize a S3 drive, but does recognize a HD drive, as being a TiVo drive, allowing you to use the guided menus of JMFS. With the S3, you'd have to drop to command line, and do it the non-menu guided way, with dd_rescue. I know there's some tricks that have been discovered to do things with S3 drives, that were thought impossible. But, all I know is that one of them involves intimate knowledge, and a tool called "iBored".
     
  20. Jul 11, 2013 #9600 of 10248
    wood252ota

    wood252ota Member

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    Apr 19, 2008
    I have a tivo HD with a wd10evds upgrade. The drive is starting to fail, so I'm about to replace it with a wd10eurx. I would like to preserve my programs on the wd10evds. After reading through this thread, I'm confused if I should use winMFS or jmfs. I thought winMFS was for HD's and jmfs was for Premieres. At least that is the way I've been doing it when I upgrade my HD and Premiere Tivos. Is winMFS still the way to go with a HD ?
    Thanks for the help
     

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