1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Drive Expansion and Drive Upgrade FAQ

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by bkdtv, Oct 19, 2007.

  1. Nov 19, 2009 #4081 of 10248
    lew

    lew Active Member

    3,958
    3
    Mar 12, 2002
    It's starting to sound like whatever firmware changes WD is rolling out isn't compatable with tivo. I'd think it's only a matter of time before the issue is either corrected (all WD drives) or few (if any) current WD drives will work with tivo.

    I don't think the problem will be solved until it's time for WD to submit drives with the new firmware to tivo for testing. Even then WD might just decide to use the older firmware with drives shipped directly to tivo.
     
  2. Nov 19, 2009 #4082 of 10248
    drey

    drey New Member

    207
    0
    Jul 21, 2008
    The problem is that TiVo uses cheaper WD10EVVS drives in XL units with less cache, so not sure if we'll ever see TiVo testing WDxxEVDS drives.

    The issue that we're seeing with firmware on certain drives, especially WD Green drives, is that these drives park heads to save the energy using proprietary technology called IntelliPark. Different firmware versions have different ms delay before the head is returned to reading position. So when TiVo is rebooted and reading head is not in place, TiVo hangs.

    This problem doesn't happen on PCs and TiVo "cold boot" because it takes 3-5 seconds for BIOS to read other data about available devices. This delay allows WD Green drives plenty of time to put the head in place. TiVo, on the other hand, during soft reboot expects drive to be readily available right away. That is also the reason why all non-green drives which do not park their heads work fine.

    I believe the better solution for TiVo would be to modify their bootup sequence and wait at least 2 secs during soft reboot before expecting to access the drive. But I wouldn't hold my breath for TiVo to modify their software so we can use "unapproved" drives.
     
  3. Nov 19, 2009 #4083 of 10248
    lew

    lew Active Member

    3,958
    3
    Mar 12, 2002
    Go up a few pages. The WD10EVVS drives were the first (current) drives to have issues with the TivoHD. Over the last couple of weeks the issue spread to other models.

    Your explanation makes the most sense. It looks like this is becoming a general issue with WD green drives.

    I don't know if tivo will be changing their software or if WD will make sure drives shipped to tivo has different firmware from drives sold to the general public.



     
  4. Nov 19, 2009 #4084 of 10248
    tom-el

    tom-el New Member

    4
    0
    Dec 12, 2007
    I use a Biostar mbd with 2 onboard ide's and 2 onboard sata's for this kind of stuff. Last year when I installed my first 1tb drive in a HD, it worked without a hitch. Last week I tried and WD diags could not see my sata drives (WinMFS sees them, but cannot access them). Turns out I reloaded XP a few months ago and the board needs sata drivers to be loaded to see the ports, which I forgot. If you create a boot disk using DOS you may need to load drivers for your main board or any pci/usb adapter (may not run under DOS), and DOS predates USB, so....
     
  5. Nov 19, 2009 #4085 of 10248
    richsadams

    richsadams Active Member

    8,893
    2
    Jan 4, 2003
    The "green technology is the problem" theory has been proposed from a number of folks for several years now. However WD GP drives did not exhibit the soft boot issue originally yet they've always touted the "IntelliPark" technology. In the beginning all of their GP drives worked with all TiVo models (I still have one of the original drives which worked in our Series3 and TiVo HD (although it's working as a backup drive now and no longer in one of our TiVo's). It was only after various changes were made to the drive lines (and then in some but not in others) that issues have arisen. Some are no longer working at all and others are exhibiting the soft reboot issue...all models which worked w/o any problems initially.

    So good ideas and input but I'm still more inclined to believe it has something to do with firmware changes and not the "green" technologies, although they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
     
  6. Nov 19, 2009 #4086 of 10248
    drhankz

    drhankz New Member

    306
    0
    Jan 14, 2008
    Salem NH
    I would suggest it is the Firmware that makes them green and
    most likely the Green Technology and FW are doing everything
    to SAVE POWER and shutting down the drives or maybe even
    slowing them down to save power and heat. Just my GUESS :rolleyes:

    All of which TiVo may not like so it reboots.
     
  7. Nov 19, 2009 #4087 of 10248
    richsadams

    richsadams Active Member

    8,893
    2
    Jan 4, 2003
    The question isn't about TiVo rebooting on its own. (If TiVo is spontaneously rebooting there's a problem.)

    "Green power" hard drives (WD, Seagate, etc.) are designed to spin down and/or park their heads when there is no activity for a specific period of time. Since TiVo hard drives are active 24/7 these drives will never make use of the "energy saver" feature, never spin down and consequently never reboot (at least because of any energy saving technology).

    The issue is about WD GP drives not being able to boot TiVo during a "soft reboot". A "hard reboot" means disconnecting power from TiVo (pulling the plug and plugging it back in). "Soft reboots" can occur when the user restarts the DVR via the menu or on other occasions such as a software update from TiVo. In those instances TiVo hangs at the "Welcome! Powering up..." screen. As mentioned, various WD GP hard drives have been fully functional with most or all TiVo models until recently when something changed and several WD drives either do not boot at all or suffer from the soft reboot issue.

    Both of our TiVo's have WD GP drives and neither suffer from the soft reboot issue (nor have they ever spontaneously rebooted except during a couple of normal TiVo upgrades).
     
  8. Nov 19, 2009 #4088 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

    1,190
    1
    Jun 20, 2009
    Portland,...
    Yes, that is what I said when I mentioned the ICH10R. I would be surprised if DOS even knew what that was.
     
  9. Nov 19, 2009 #4089 of 10248
    drhankz

    drhankz New Member

    306
    0
    Jan 14, 2008
    Salem NH
    All perfectly good logic, but something in the NEW Drive FW
    obviously is not compatible with TiVo. We must be able to
    agree on that much :p
     
  10. Nov 19, 2009 #4090 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

    1,190
    1
    Jun 20, 2009
    Portland,...
    Maybe not! Of course, FW is the first thing to suspect, but it can be, and often is, the drive electronics. An EC can be cut in, and all seems to work. It can also be a manufacturing line that has done something different.

    With that said, it is VERY important that all persons who have this soft reboot issue call WD at 1-800-275-4932 and give them your S/N and Model number. Then have this escalated up the chain.

    If not, we are just telling ourselves the same story here and trying to guess what WD did.

    P.S. WD has looked at this thread. :D
     
  11. Nov 19, 2009 #4091 of 10248
    richsadams

    richsadams Active Member

    8,893
    2
    Jan 4, 2003
    Okay...no fair! Leaving a tidbit like that hanging out there is like throwing red meat into the lion's den and telling him he can only admire it. :mad: :D
     
  12. Nov 19, 2009 #4092 of 10248
    richsadams

    richsadams Active Member

    8,893
    2
    Jan 4, 2003
    Not disagreeing here...just clarifying a little. As MPSAN noted above and in various other posts...there are a lot of possibilities. We can rule a few out but I'll leave the rest to the experts.

    For some of us interested in this little slice of TiVodom it's quite interesting whereas for most folks and in the grand scheme of things it's pretty close to and about as important as making a judgment about how blue the sky is today (or gray if you live in this neck of the woods) and why. ;)
     
  13. Nov 19, 2009 #4093 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

    1,190
    1
    Jun 20, 2009
    Portland,...
    WARNING, No user serviceable data in this posting.

    This is why WD MUST build a DB based on Drive models, Mfg. Dates, and place of build. It can be as simple as a manufacturing line, in a single Country, forgetting to add a jumper or impliment a new EC. That can ONLY be resolved by getting data points. The more the better!

    P.S. Maybe WD will see this reply as well! :D
     
  14. Nov 19, 2009 #4094 of 10248
    richsadams

    richsadams Active Member

    8,893
    2
    Jan 4, 2003
    [shaking head] Cruel...just cruel.
     
  15. Nov 19, 2009 #4095 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

    1,190
    1
    Jun 20, 2009
    Portland,...
    OH...and how cruel was it when I wanted to upgrade my TiVo to 1TB and I couldn't see? :D
     
  16. Nov 19, 2009 #4096 of 10248
    wgw

    wgw New Member

    217
    0
    May 16, 2007
    Just because you are not experiencing the same problem does not mean it is not normal. Since I have two tivos that behave exactly the same, I consider it normal for whatever bug in the tivo software thats causing it. Do you have the same cable service that I do? Does your cable service configure their cards the same as mine does. Do you even have cable cards? Perhaps opus123 and I have the same cable service. opus123 should certainly run a full WD diagnostic on the drive to be sure the drive is not defective. But if the diagnostic passes, it may be a common glitch caused by our configuration and a bug in the tivo software.
     
  17. Nov 20, 2009 #4097 of 10248
    richsadams

    richsadams Active Member

    8,893
    2
    Jan 4, 2003
    Well, I'm really sorry to hear that you're convinced that having to constantly reboot TiVo to keep things running is "normal". Seriously, it's not. There is a problem. It might be a hard drive issue, it could be a signal problem, internal, external, hardware, software, it's hard to know without further analysis.

    I see by some of your other posts that you just upgraded one of your TiVo's. I noted that it didn't go as planned at first (don't you just hate that?) but that you were able to get it straightened out with some help. Congrats!

    With regard to the OP figuring out what's wrong a good place to start is to give some of TiVo's built-in diagnostics called Kickstarts a try to see if the problem can be resolved. But if that doesn't work, I agree, additional detective work is certainly called for. Here's the Kickstart link:

    http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5643823#post5643823

    If there's anything else we can do to help, don't hesitate to ask. After 8 plus years of modding TiVo's I may have some ideas, but I certainly don't have all of the answers. Luckily there are a lot of very helpful folks here. Be sure to post as much info as you can and hopefully things can get ironed out.

    Oh, yes, I in fact do have cable cards (see my signature). ;)
     
  18. Nov 20, 2009 #4098 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

    1,190
    1
    Jun 20, 2009
    Portland,...
    Hello ALL;

    Just a quick question to all of you with WD drives that fail a soft boot. Is AAM changed to 128? I wonder if the setting to make the drive quiet can change the seek profile enough to cause the issue? Perhaps the drive can be set back to the default it came with.
     
  19. Nov 20, 2009 #4099 of 10248
    jlib

    jlib Lean Forward

    1,063
    0
    Nov 21, 2002
    Carmel...
    I can verify that the AAM setting did not have an effect on my WD soft-reboot problem.

    Though there may be some timing issues involved it is also more complicated than the drive simply needing more time to boot up as poster drey hypothesized. On both of the soft-reboot cases I have seen the drive heads accessed the spun-up drive several times and then eventually things just stopped and the bootup died.
     
  20. Nov 20, 2009 #4100 of 10248
    wgw

    wgw New Member

    217
    0
    May 16, 2007
    lol, I did not need any help. Woop-dee-doo, someone told me about supersize, since I did not know about it because it has been 2 years since I installed my 1TB drive. Who gives a **** about a couple megs. Since you are such an expert on pixelation, I think your expertise would be better applied by solving everyones problems in the pixelation thread. And for that matter, why haven't you been able to solve my pixelation problems. If you had ever really read any of my posts, you would realize that I regularly do full diagnostics on my drives to ensure that they not are defective. And since you asked, please contact TiVo and force them to resolve all pixelation issues not related to defective hard drives. Thank you and let me know when you have resolved the problem.
     

Share This Page