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Drive Expansion and Drive Upgrade FAQ

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by bkdtv, Oct 19, 2007.

  1. Jul 4, 2009 #3161 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

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    Portland,...
    Well, it just depends on a bad sector being marked during low level formatting. If it was OK at the time of the factory format, and then shipped as being good, it could have a bad sector that would show up in the same place every time if it went bad after. A low level format can fix that. Some drive vendors do let you get to the low level format...I believe that WD and Seagate did. Not sure if the utils are still available online. Anyway, I guess the safest thing to say at this point is "never mind". New drives have plenty of bad sectors that are skipped during a factory format. You never know that they are there...and usually never neet to. :D
     
  2. Jul 4, 2009 #3162 of 10248
    richsadams

    richsadams Active Member

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    All good points. In my experience running servers and such (and even with my own computers), if I found a new hard drive with even minor issues and used it I always lived to regret it. Now I just give them back. Although these days it's not nearly as big a problem as it once was. QC has gotten much better even as the drives have gotten bigger...or maybe because of it...I've no idea.
     
  3. Jul 4, 2009 #3163 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

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    Yes...a little of both. Since the drives are now so big, there had to be a way of marking bad sectors...or even multi sectors and still ship the drive. Way back in the days of the first PC drives (5MB) they would just scrap them. As the capacity grew to 10MB and 20MB and even 40MB, they would find that a surface had too many bad sectors and just sell it as a 20MB drive...ie: they only made 40MB, etc and sold it depending on the number of good surfaces...or heads. On main frames, it was even worse, but then there were disk packs that you would change.

    Anyway, enough about this. Anything further about my "work" would have to be a PM...one of your neighbors used to work for me. :D I was involved in Hard Drives when they first started and have made 45 trips to Japan in the process. I have seen so many improvements over the decades! Anyway, Hard Drives are actually what brought me from CA up to your area. :D
     
  4. Jul 5, 2009 #3164 of 10248
    richsadams

    richsadams Active Member

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    I've always wondered if having more "real estate" on HDD platters allowed for more variations such as bad sectors to be passed through. Seems that the manufacturing process has improved markedly as well...perhaps thanks to some of your hard work.

    I also remember being so excited about buying a "huge" 540MB HDD (for about a $1/MB IIRC) and thinking I'd never need more space than that...ever. Ah, the good 'ol days. :)
     
  5. Jul 5, 2009 #3165 of 10248
    moonscape

    moonscape Member

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    Jul 3, 2004
    SF Bay Area
    i got a WD10EVCS from buy.com to upgrade my S3 and it arrived, box within a much larger box, rattling around with zero packaging. couldn't believe it.

    although i know it's wise to check a drive in any case, i definitely need to w/ this one but have never done this so forgive my ignorant question!

    would doing diagnostics via WD tools the best way to go? if yes, is the 'diagnostics for windows' at http://support.wdc.com/product/download.asp?groupid=610&lang=en what i want? - i don't need to do this in DOS, right?

    i'll be doing the upgrade via usb/esata cable if that makes any difference.

    is there another diagnostic i should be doing or which would be better to use?

    thanks!
     
  6. Jul 5, 2009 #3166 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

    1,194
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    Portland,...
    Yes, let the drive warm up for a bit and you can use the WD tools to do a surface scan of the whole drive. In that way, any errors will be reported.

    Some of the Software will not let you do all of the operations like a low level format, but you should just run the tests to verify that the drive surfaces are OK. OH and I have used both Windows and a self booting CD. Just be aware, that some of the DOS diagnostics will not "see" an HDD connected to USB, SATA, or eSATA ports, so Windows versions should be better in that respect.
     
  7. Jul 5, 2009 #3167 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

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    Price...I remember my first HDD as being 20MB and costing about $400! I am glad the TiVo 1TB drives are not $20/MB.
    OH, remember the LBA discussions? I could never make people believe that the 20 bit addressing vs. 20 bit LBA did NOT make drives go from 128MB to 160MB! LBA only let you access the 160 MB capacity already there instead of the Cylinder Head Sector limits in 20 bits! But this is even more OT than we already are!

    Anyway, I need to read some more stuff on my 3 TiVo HD's as I am looking for a few features that even my ReplayTV's have that the TiVo seems to be missing!
     
  8. Jul 5, 2009 #3168 of 10248
    moonscape

    moonscape Member

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    The WD diagnostic utility isn't seeing the USB-attached drive. It's showing up in USB Controllers w/ a yellow exclamation in device manager. I deleted that, rebooted, reattached drive, but get the same. What am I doing wrong?
     
  9. Jul 5, 2009 #3169 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

    1,194
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    Portland,...
    It means that the USB driver has not been installed in Windows, but are you using XP? SP3? Try a reboot with the USB drive attached and ON. It should say found new hardware. The driver should be installed before you did this at all and wonder if you ever had it installed. Are you using one of those USB to SATA convertors? If so, and you would have to if you are using the SATA drive, then you should have a driver for the adapter.
     
  10. Jul 5, 2009 #3170 of 10248
    moonscape

    moonscape Member

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    Yeah -I remember going from 20MB to 60MB and nearly passing out from joy.

    My first computer was an Osborne Executive luggable - about $2-2.5K if I recall, which was an incredible fortune for me at the time - running CP/M w/ a teeny-tiny green or amber screen. It was a big deal, not being techie at all (got it for business reasons) and having but a handful of female friends w/ a computer period. When I got my Netcom account there were so few women on the internet I had to quickly change my nick to something gender-vague because I was bombarded w/ emails. Funny times.
     
  11. Jul 5, 2009 #3171 of 10248
    moonscape

    moonscape Member

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    The drivers for the adapter are only for Mac and 98 - it says XP (I'm running SP2) can support w/out drivers and none are included on the CD. Computer didn't boot w/ HD attached but I'll try again. I know I'm doing something stupid - but there's a first time for everyone and this is my time!
     
  12. Jul 5, 2009 #3172 of 10248
    moonscape

    moonscape Member

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    I was booting on a slower desktop and wasn't patient enough. It did boot but showed up as 'unknown device' - didn't show up in disk management or in WD diagnostics utility. What do I need to do for it to be recognized?

    I tried on my notebook which is much faster (but which I didn't want to tie up for this and the upgrade) but get the same thing.

    I'm using these - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000E6NGBU/ref=ox_ya_oh_product - got 2 for the upgrade.

    Dang. I either downloaded or got rid of 75% of my Tivo pgms to make the upgrade faster and was/am all ready to go but don't know what I'm doing wrong.
     
  13. Jul 5, 2009 #3173 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

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    Well, we used to live in Saratoga and went to Santa Cruz and Pacific Grove often. I ran CP/M as well with ...are you ready...ZCPR! I had this on an Apple][+ and my CM/M card was from a little known company called Microsoft. I wonder whatever happened to them? :D

    P.S. I still have that stuff too!
     
  14. Jul 5, 2009 #3174 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

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    That is because Win98 did not support USB. Do you have other USB drives (perhaps for backup)? I ask as the MoBo BIOS should have an entry to enable USB. Does My Computer show anything? Perhaps WinMFS will see it. I hope the plugs are correct as these adapters end up with wires all over the place!

    Also, if you do have a SATA controller on your PC MoBo, you could turn off the PC and add this new drive and see if it can be seen by Windows. This would be a good test as SOME of these USB to IDE/SATA converters have chip sets that only see a max of a 750GB drive. Do you have another drive that you can test in that converter...something less that 750GB?
     
  15. Jul 5, 2009 #3175 of 10248
    moonscape

    moonscape Member

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    I use USB drives regularly, the largest 500GB - is that what you're asking? I'm not sure if my desktop has a SATA controller or not - it's about 4 years old I think - and maybe I'll open up the computer tomorrow and see. Right now I'm burnt - and sure I must be doing something very basic and stupid. No, I've no other drive to test w/ the converter - this is the first bare drive I've ever bought because I've used almost exclusively notebooks for 25 years. The desktop is just here as a backup I use maybe once/month.

    I should be able to connect the bare drive to the cable, boot, and see the drive as something other than an unknown device w/out needing additional drivers, right? and without formatting or installing the drive to do that?

    If that's the case, maybe I'll try to see if WinMFS will see it as you suggested. But if it does, then I'm going ahead w/out knowing the integrity of the drive. Would that be a Bad Thing? How long would it take for problems to show up if there is any issue w/ the drive?
     
  16. Jul 5, 2009 #3176 of 10248
    richsadams

    richsadams Active Member

    8,893
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    Jan 4, 2003
    It's likely winMFS will see the drive even though you can't get it to show up in WD Lifeguard.

    Use the new drive at your own risk of course, but I'm always amazed at how much physical abuse they can take in shipment. The heads are parked at the time so it would take a pretty hard blow to do some damage and even then it would be of the not spinning up variety. Since there's nothing touching the platters when it's disconnected nothing should have happened to them. If you were to drop it while it's running (head crash) that would be a whole other story.

    Hopefully this isn't your delivery guy...

    Special Delivery
     
  17. Jul 5, 2009 #3177 of 10248
    moonscape

    moonscape Member

    469
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    Jul 3, 2004
    SF Bay Area
    Too funny - well not. I've got UPS packages that resembled tha

    Going to try the upgrade now - and hope winMFS sees the drive and all goes well. If there's a drive issue I always have the old one to plop back in - but I'd hope it shows up before it's loaded w/ non-transferable movies, etc.

    But after all, it's only TV!
     
  18. Jul 5, 2009 #3178 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

    1,194
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    Jun 20, 2009
    Portland,...
    I had thought that XP could not even see it. If a 500GB USB drive works, then XP should not have a driver issue...if the chipset on the converter supports 1TB drives. Not sure if XP does not see it, or if it just does not know what it is. WinMFS would be a good test to see if it sees it. If it does see the whole 1TB, then it is not the converter.

    OH, Rich, the heads always crash when you power down. They go to a Landing Zone. Another big argument...is it better to go to a dedicated LZ, or let them fall where they last were used? A dedicated LZ (as on the WD) can be argued that the heads keep landing in the same spot!
     
  19. Jul 5, 2009 #3179 of 10248
    moonscape

    moonscape Member

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    WinMFS sees the Tivo drive just fine, but not the WD.

    I did have the same WD drive I bought last year (yeah I know, I know) that I never got around to putting into the S3. I recently got a HD and so another drive so to upgrade both. So - I dug out the drive from last year (still unpackaged believe it or not) and tried that one. Also not recognized.

    The cables I have got great reviews and people did upgrade their Tivos w/ them - so now I'm stumped.

    Any ideas or do I just put my Tivo drive back and sleep on it?

    Ack.
     
  20. Jul 5, 2009 #3180 of 10248
    bkdtv

    bkdtv New Member

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    Jan 9, 2003
    DC Metro Area
    If you are connecting two drive to your a computer at the same time, how is this second drive connected? Are the TiVo and new drive connected in exactly the same way?

    If you are connecting each drive in a different way, are you able to connect the replacement drive using the same method (and connection / port) as the TiVo drive? Have you tried rebooting your computer with the drive connected?

    I assume you've confirmed that the drive is running (i.e. it has power). Some people do not realize that they need a second cable for power.
     

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