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Drive Expansion and Drive Upgrade FAQ

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by bkdtv, Oct 19, 2007.

  1. Jun 20, 2009 #3041 of 10248
    richsadams

    richsadams Active Member

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    Sounds good. And it sounds like we've both spent the good part of a Saturday playing around with TiVo upgrades. I know your efforts will turn out much better than mine. At least it's raining here so not a huge loss.

    Just be careful not to short out the exposed circuit boards on the back of the hard drives by touching them to metal anywhere. Otherwise it sounds like you're good to go.

    Yep, you'll be able to replace/add a hard drive in your sleep now. See...not so hard huh? ;)
     
  2. Jun 20, 2009 #3042 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

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    So, Rich, I guess I am not Welcome. :D

    Anyway, I guess you did not see my first post (#3034 above).
    I was looking at adding a WD10EVVS as they are now <$100. The EVCS it way more $$$, but the EVVS shows an 8MB buffer on some sites. On others it is 16MB. So, do you know which is correct? I do assume that they are 7,200 RPM drives.
     
  3. Jun 20, 2009 #3043 of 10248
    bkdtv

    bkdtv New Member

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    We saw your post. But you are not a part of the club until you upgrade your TiVo. Sorry. ;)
     
  4. Jun 20, 2009 #3044 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

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    ...but I do want to wait for the 3 of them to at least warm up. Seriously...is 1 Month AFTER M-Cards safe enough?

    I guess my sig says it all! :D
     
  5. Jun 20, 2009 #3045 of 10248
    lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...
    All connections which supply power TO a device are female. This is in part for safety reasons. If male connectors supplied power, then for many connector types, bare electrical connectors with possibly hazardous voltages present would be sticking out where any conductor - like a human body - could short them out. That is why all wall plugs and the business end of all extension cords, as well as all other power cables, are female. Male connectors are only to be used to accept power FROM a power source, never to deliver power TO a device. Some low voltage applications use hermaphroditic connectors, but in such cases the male half of the connector must always be at frame ground potential.

    Rich Adams already answered the rest, but to clarify a bit:

    There are three types of drive power connectors typicaly found in contemporary desktop PCs. The first is a small polarized Insulation Displacement Connector used typically to power floppy drives and low power controllers such as port multipliers or sometimes fans, such as the two connectors on the left in this picture:

    [​IMG]

    I have never seen a hard drive which uses this sort of power connector, but most power supplies have at least one or two of these hanging off them. The next type is the old 4 pin Molex connector from which most hard drives and CD / DVD drives in the past obtained their power. Some contemporary SATA drives still have molex connectors on them, and most modern power supplies still provide at least a couple of these, as many drives, especially PATA drives, only have this type of connector:

    [​IMG]

    Finally, all SATA (AFAIK) drives employ a newer, thinner multiple conductor power connector which slips onto an edge-card connector. Some SATA drives have both types of connector, but one need only connect one power cable to such drives. Some systems, like the TiVo, employ a single conenctor which delivers both power and signals to the drive. There is a newer, recently released SATA cable which is smaller than the current SATA signal / power connectors, but I have not yet actually seen a drive which employs them. AFAIK, all SATA drives can make use of a power cable like this:

    [​IMG]

    If one's computer system does not have enough power cables to handle all the drives one wishes to power, "Y" cables like those shown abopve are readily available for about $5 at any computer and electronics store.
     
  6. Jun 20, 2009 #3046 of 10248
    lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...
    Really, it is a matter of personal perspective. The main consideration for most people, I think, is that these upgrades void the warranty. If you can see your way to ignoring the fact, or if you wait until the warranty is expired, then you've cleared the highest hurdle. Thereafter, once everything seems stable for at least 24 hours after you have things working, then I would say any time you are comfortable with doing the upgrade is fine. The only thing which ever really held me back was falling drive prices. It wounds my soul to pay for something only to see its price drop by more than 50&#37; over the next few months, so I often wait until drive prices get lower. Then again, I'm cheap as all heck. :)
     
  7. Jun 20, 2009 #3047 of 10248
    lynnalexandra

    lynnalexandra New Member

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    lrhorer - thanks for that very clear explanation about power sources in the pc. I may get a y bracket if I do anything of this sort again. It was really too short a power cord.

    Anyway - I now have a problem. I hooked up the Tivo with new drive - and the external hard drive in the Antec. Hooked up the tivo, tv, antec and all cables. Powered the tivo - and nothing - just says no program.

    I'm thinking I may have accidentally switched the two hard drives. So maybe the wrong drive is in the Tivo. I'll try switching them - but wonder if anyone could tell me if that sounds right? Also, when I used winmfs to set up the external drive, it was very quick. When I selected the new tivo internal to drive A and the external drive to drive B, and selected Tools - MFSadd, it asked me if I was sure bc. it would be writing a Tivo drive. Not sure what that meant - so I went back and doublechecked and I had selected the correct drives for A and B. So I said OK. The instructions do not indicate that I would get this prompt (are you sure?). Did something go wrong there. If that's normal, it would be helpful to have it in the instructions so people like me don't panic. But now I'm worried that that in and of itself was a problem.

    I'm hoping - 6 1/2 hours later - to only have to do this one more time. So could someone also walk me through the order of reconnecting Tivo, external drive, cables, power - and which to power up first (tv, tivo, external drive?) - the instructions don't specify. Does that mean there's no such thing as the wrong order?

    Thanks.
    Lynn.
     
  8. Jun 20, 2009 #3048 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

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    Well, I am not sure how long the Warranty is for. Also, I believe that I will only upgrade one of them. I think that it may be wise to take the other two out to backup. In case of a drive failure I would not have to go thru the M-Card/Comcast thingy again...I am afraid that when I get my TiVo HD units Thursday, I will have to call them. I hope they have M-Cards here. Rick may know.

    I know what you mean about drive prices. My first Apple ][+ system (which I still have) had a 20M HDD...it was $20/MB. At that rate a 1TB drive would have cost me $20,000,000...I am glad I waited!
     
  9. Jun 20, 2009 #3049 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

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    lynn, can what you wanted to do be done all at once? I will be looking for this answer also.

    The way I read part IV on the first page makes me think that you FIRST have to use the Original TiVo drive (or a backup file you created from it) to then make the New 1TB internal drive. I would then put it in the TiVo to be sure that part is OK.

    THEN, I would use that new 1TB drive you just verified in the TiVo and add the drive for the external 1TB (eSATA) unit. It sounds to me like you used both 1TB drives at the same time, before getting the first one running.

    P.S. I also have the Antec case and use it for eSATA PC backup. I MAY try what you are doing, too.
     
  10. Jun 20, 2009 #3050 of 10248
    lynnalexandra

    lynnalexandra New Member

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    I followed the instructions in section IV, FAQ 11. I think I was supposed to do both at once. First get the new internal hard drive set up from the original Tivo HD. Then marry the new internal hard drive with the new external hard drive.

    I've just switched hard drives, so I'll see if that was my mistake. If not, I'm stumped.

    Lynn.
     
  11. Jun 21, 2009 #3051 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

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    Well, that does not make sense. IF you take out the 160GB drive, and then use BOTH new 1TB drives, how is the software going to get on there? This is what I see...in IV-11-9

    9. Shut down Windows, turn off your computer, and connect the TiVo's built-in SATA drive and your new replacement SATA drive. You can open your computer and connect both with SATA cables, or you can connect them externally using a pair of SATA->USB adapters or a dual drive dock. Both drives should be connected to your PC at the same time.

    ...and 11 and 13 seem to verify what I am saying...THEN you use step 15 to Marry the new external drive.

    Get ORIGINAL 160GB software as a backup. THEN copy it to the NEW 1TB drive you want to be the Internal drive, etc. Then continue. As I said, with two NEW drives, you need the software from the 160GB drive...just a thought.
     
  12. Jun 21, 2009 #3052 of 10248
    lynnalexandra

    lynnalexandra New Member

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    I'm stumped. Switching the hard drives didn't do it. So something else went very wrong - and I have no idea what. Having spent almost 8 hours at this, I'm hoping somebody can help me figure out what went wrong.

    When I go to power the Tivo up, nothing happens. I put the Tv on, and it says "No Program" - against a dark bluish grey screen. I also tried without the external drive plugged in. Nothing.

    The first two steps seemed to go as described. making the truncated back-up. Then imaging the original Tivo drive and copying it onto the new upgraded internal drive. When I went to program the external drive, and chose mfsadd, it may not have seemed right. Of course, even if that part didn't go right, the new internal hard drive should have worked.

    Help, please.
    Lynn.
     
  13. Jun 21, 2009 #3053 of 10248
    lynnalexandra

    lynnalexandra New Member

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    Mspan - we cross posted. I think I did do what you suggested. I took the original Tivo 160GB hard drive out - connected it to my pc - and connected the new 1TB hard drive (to become the new internal hard drive). I selected Tools, MFScopy - and it seemed to copy the software and recorded shows from my original drive (took about an hour).

    I kept my newly imaged 1TB internal hard drive connected to the PC. I unplugged the original Tivo drive. I hooked up my new external drive. Then married the external drive to the new internal drive - as per instructions in #18 (the first option).

    So I think I followed the instructions to the letter.

    Lynn.
     
  14. Jun 21, 2009 #3054 of 10248
    lynnalexandra

    lynnalexandra New Member

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    I think I wasn't clear when I said I just switched hard drives. I meant that after doing all the instructions to the letter - I thought it might not have worked bc. I accidentally put the newly programmed internal drive in the esata case and the new external drive inside the Tivo. So I switched them in case I had mistaken them inthe first place.

    When I did the initial programming of the new internal sata drive, I did not just switch drives - I connected them to the pc and imaged the original onto the new one.

    Lynn.
     
  15. Jun 21, 2009 #3055 of 10248
    lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...
    I'm not sure what you mean. My personal preference is to upgrade the stock internal drive to whatever drive size one wishes - 1T drives are pretty ine4xpensive right now - and take the stock 160G drive and sit it on the shelf in case of a later drive failure. You will not need to call Comcast to re-marry the CableCards with your system, either with the new drive or in the event the new drive fails and yu swap back to the old drive. You can do this with every TiVo if you like. Just be sure to carefully label the TiVos and the hard drive in some way so you don't confuse which drive went with which TiVo, or you may indeed have to make a call to Comcast when you switch back to the old drive.

    The first drives I ever purchased (for the University where I worked, not for myself) were a pair of 12" removable media drives. They were 2RU (3.5") tall, 19" rack-mount drives with an on-line storage capacity of 8MB each. Together, they cost $12,000, or $750 per MB. That was in 1981. Allowing for inflation, in today's dollars a 1T worth of on-line storage at the time would have cost about 1,200,000,000,000 dollars! :eek:
     
  16. Jun 21, 2009 #3056 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

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    Well, I did not mean that I would have to backup the drive from the TIVO I was going to upgrade. I am getting 3 and will keep the other two stock. Because of that, I may do a backup of the other two and then keep that backup on two CD's. In that way if the non-upgraded TIVO units have an HDD issue, I can then buy a new HDD and restore from the correct CD Image.

    As to your big drive cost goes, we also used to have drums on the "big iron" I used to work on. Those sizes seemed so big then! Remember backing up a PC hard drive on floppy disk!??

    MPSAN...Migrant Electronics Worker!
     
  17. Jun 21, 2009 #3057 of 10248
    lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...
    OK, let's take this step by step. The original drive should be easy to identify. It should be clearly labeled as a 160GB drive, while the new drives should be readily identifieable by their sizes, as well.

    Take the ORIGINAL 160G HARD DRIVE, put it in the TiVo, hook up the internal signal / power jumper, and plug the Tivo back in.

    1. Does the TiVo Sunrise screen come up?
    2. If so, after a few moments, does the "Almost there" screen come up?
    3. If so, does the TiVo boot all the way up after about 6 minutes or so?

    If the answer to all three is, "Yes", then you're good to proceed. If not, then we'll have to work to recover your system.

    From here on, I am going to call the 160G drive the Original drive, the drive you intend to put inside the TiVo the Upgrade drive, and the second new drive the External drive You might do well to put a piece of masking tape on each new drive to label it. (Don't accidentally cover the vent hole on the drive!!)

    Assuming the system does boot:

    1. Shut down the TiVo, remove the Original drive again, and put both the Original drive and the Upgrade drive on your PC and boot up to WinMFS. When this is complete, follow the instructions for upgrading the single drive. Be sure to select the original drive as the source and the larger drive as the target. Start the upgrade process. This will probably take about 4 hours.

    2. Once complete, shut down the PC, remove the original 160G hard drive, and put it up safely on the shelf.

    3. Take your Upgrade drive and put it in the TiVo. Power up the TiVo to make sure it boots. Confirm everything is working.

    4. Shut down the TiVo, and place the Upgrade drive along with the External drive into your PC. (If your PC has an eSATA port, then just mount the External drive in the external housing and plug the housing into the PC.)

    5. Boot the PC and once again run WinMFS. This time all you will be doing is supersizing the drives and marrying the internal drive to the external drive. Both of these operations only take a moment each.

    6. Remove the external drive and put it into the external housing if it is not already mounted in the housing.

    7. Remove the upgrade drive and place it in the TiVo.

    8. Plug in the external housing to the TiVo and supply power to it.

    9. Supply power to the TiVo and check that everything works.
     
  18. Jun 21, 2009 #3058 of 10248
    MPSAN

    MPSAN Active Member

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    Well, I am at a loss as I thought that you did not copy the 160GB software anywhere. I saw that they wanted any AV software disabled, but it sounds like this should have worked. Still, I would have tried the new 1TB drive first...then gone back and married them.
     
  19. Jun 21, 2009 #3059 of 10248
    lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...
    Ah! I see. 'Not a bad plan, at all. You may find yourself wanting more space on the other two TiVos - believe it or not. Whenever you do, you can always upgrade at that time.

    Remember it? I still have bad dreams about it. When the drive in the dream changes from a 40M drive to a 10T drive array, the bad dream becomes a nightmare! :)
     
  20. Jun 21, 2009 #3060 of 10248
    lynnalexandra

    lynnalexandra New Member

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    lrhorer - thank you. It's 1am here and I need to go to sleep, so I'll try those steps tomorrow. My first question, though, is what you mean by "hook up the internal signal / power jumper" - do you mean plug in the sata and power connector to the original drive? Then plug in the power cord and connect to the tv and see if it's working? No need to close up the drive enclosure and Tivo frame?

    I suspect this will work - since this step seemed to go fine. and yes, it's clear which the original drive is.

    No esata port on my pc, so I'll have to open it up and connect to the internal sata ports and power supply.

    When I first copied the original drive onto the new internal drive, it took about an hour - but my hard drive was not full - maybe 7-8 hours of high def - a few standard. But I don't need those recordings (I have them on my pc or Tivo 2), so in the interest of time, I think I'd like to skip copying all the recorded shows and just copy the software. Is there a step to just do that?

    When I tried to marry the new internal and external drives, it was quick. But I don't recall an option to supersize then (I did when formatting the first drive). Since that's where I got something different than the instructions, could someone tell me what should happen when I select MFSadd? I assume no screen suggesting that I'd be writing to a tivo drive? And I checked and checked that I had designated A and B correctly.

    After this step, I'd like to run the Tivo with new internal drive. Can I plug in the esata drive later - just so I can narrow down the point in the process that's a problem. Is it possible that if the external drive wasn't done correctly, that powering it and the Tivo up together caused it to not work?

    The fact that I tried each new drive inside the Tivo - meaning at least one of them was wrong - would that harm the Tivo - or harm the formatting on the drives - since I'm thinking that the first internal upgraded drive I formatted was done correctly.

    So I should first try the new internal drive - and only after that's working should I add the external? Not powered up together?

    Thanks.
    Lynn.
     

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