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Does Tivo have any competitors?

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by Gifted1, Oct 16, 2013.

  1. Oct 22, 2013 #41 of 177
    Loach

    Loach New Member

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    I've posted this before in another thread, but thought it might be worthwhile posting here as well. Here's what TiVo says about their retail competition in their most recent annual report with the SEC on Form 10-K:

    They go on to describe their competition within their MSO and Media Services (advertising) business, but I didn't think that was really relevant to this thread. I do find it interesting that they don't really mention computers in the context of HTPCs, but rather just in the context of internet content delivery.
     
  2. Oct 22, 2013 #42 of 177
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    So even in TiVo's eyes their only competition is from DVRs offered by MSOs and devices that offer alternatives to DVRs via streaming services. Honestly with the uncertainty surrounding the future of CableCARDs and whatever may come next I can't imagine anyone else joining the fray. Maybe Ceton is still working on some standalone device that uses custom DVR software rather then MCE, but it's hard to imagine they'd be able to create a DVR product from the ground up that would be able to compete with TiVo straight out of the gate.
     
  3. Oct 23, 2013 #43 of 177
    mr.unnatural

    mr.unnatural Active Member

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    Ellicott...
    I think the main reason why you don't see any independent competitors to Tivo is that as soon as one emerges, Tivo sues the pants off them for even the remotest hint of copyright infringement. It's hard enough for a new company to start up without having to deal with lawsuits right out of the gate. Couple that with the costs of getting CableLabs certification and you're in the red before you even get started. Only the cable and satellite providers with the money to back it can venture into this area. Microsoft has money to burn so it's not surprising they gave it a shot.

    That's pretty much how 95% of the threads go in public forums. The OP posts a topic or question and then stops participating once they get the answer they were seeking. Keeping a thread on topic for the entirety of the discussion is more of the exception than the rule. The initial topic just opens the door to more discussion of related issues.
     
  4. Oct 23, 2013 #44 of 177
    HerronScott

    HerronScott Well-Known Member

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    What independent competitors did this happen with? I don't recall any suits against Moxi for example which would have been the most recent independent competitor.

    Scott
     
  5. Oct 23, 2013 #45 of 177
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    They might have eventually, but Moxi went under before TiVo won the suit against Dish. TiVo sued Dish first, after they won that they started suing everyone else. Most of them settled or made deals, so we didn't hear a lot about them beyond Dish.
     
  6. Oct 23, 2013 #46 of 177
    mr.unnatural

    mr.unnatural Active Member

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    Ellicott...
    What Dan said. Moxi had a very short lifespan and quickly disappeared from sight so Tivo never needed to sue them. I'm sure they did their homework before introducing a DVR that might have copyright issues, but it didn't help them much in the grand scheme of things.

    Tivo has become a household name associated with DVRs in general, sort of like Kleenex or Xerox and their respective products. Products with different names tend to get overlooked in favor of one that's more familiar.
     
  7. Oct 23, 2013 #47 of 177
    mattack

    mattack Active Member

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    What does *copyright* infringement have to do with anything?

    I presume you mean *patent* infringement, and Tivo has various valid patents, so it's right that they can sue and win when other companies use them without paying.
     
  8. Oct 24, 2013 #48 of 177
    mr.unnatural

    mr.unnatural Active Member

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    Yes, exactly. I meant patent infringement.
     
  9. Nov 8, 2013 #49 of 177
    Gifted1

    Gifted1 New Member

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  10. Nov 9, 2013 #50 of 177
    unitron

    unitron Active Member

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    Apparently the first gen could handle OTA and unencrypted (i.e., no cable card) digital cable, but this article doesn't show us the back where the inputs are and doesn't specifically mention cable one way or the other.
     
  11. Nov 9, 2013 #51 of 177
    atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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  12. Nov 9, 2013 #52 of 177
    slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    It's not a Tivo competitor since it's OTA-only, and it's not a good alternative for a variety of reasons.
     
  13. Nov 9, 2013 #53 of 177
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    The only real retail competitor to TiVo is a MCE pc with a Ceton card or HDHomeRun. Unfortunately with MS discontinuing MCE that may not be an option for much longer. Then again with cable companies pressuring the FCC to allow them to switch back to an integrated encryption scheme TiVo may not work much longer either.
     
  14. Nov 9, 2013 #54 of 177
    shwru980r

    shwru980r Active Member

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    Won't the cable companies need at least one compatible third party set top box to satisfy the level-playing field provisions?
     
  15. Nov 9, 2013 #55 of 177
    aadam101

    aadam101 Tell me a joke

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    Years ago you used to constantly hear people on TV shows and movies saying they "Tivo'd it". Now everyone says they "DVR'd it". It's sad. Tivo was on their way to being a household name and instead they were replaced by a generic term and generic products.
     
  16. Nov 9, 2013 #56 of 177
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    The waiver Charter got said that if they could get at least one retail device on the market using their system then they could stop offering CableCARDs. There is not guarantee that one device will be a TiVo or even a DVR. And while they are required to make the scheme open and implementable by 3rd parties there is nothing that requires other cable companies to use the same scheme. So this sets a precedent where every cable system could have it's own scheme and as long as they have one retail device available they can drop support for CableCARDs reverting us to a system where hardware mobility is essentially dead. They will be required to continue servicing CableCARDs that were already deployed, but 5 years from now who knows. The entire retail DVR business could be completely dead.
     
  17. Nov 9, 2013 #57 of 177
    mr.unnatural

    mr.unnatural Active Member

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    Ellicott...
    I'd be surprised if Microsoft doesn't support MCE for at least as long as they support Windows 8 since they offer it as an add-on for Win 8. MS tends to support an OS for approximately ten years on average after the OS is initially launched so chances are MCE will be around at least until 2022. By then I wouldn't be surprised if most cable systems are supplanted entirely by streaming services.
     
  18. Nov 10, 2013 #58 of 177
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    That's not true. Vista's support ended in 2012 even though it was released in 2007. So it only had a 5 year run. XP is a special case where they extended support because of backlash over Vista an business users not wanting to upgrade. Win8 is scheduled for support to end in 2018, and service pack support ends in 2016, so MS could potentially kill MCE on either of those dates.

    And even if it does last until 2022 there will never be another bug fix or feature. The only thing you're guaranteed is guide data. Plus if the thing I mentioned above with Charter actually happens then the PC as a DVR will be dead for good because there is no way MS will get certified for whatever these new technologies turn out to be.
     
  19. Nov 10, 2013 #59 of 177
    mr.unnatural

    mr.unnatural Active Member

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    Ellicott...
    I wasn't aware that they stopped supporting Vista. That seems like an extremely short lifespan for an OS release, although I suspect Vista wasn't as popular as MS would have hoped, which may account for the lack of support. Win 7 got a much higher level of acceptance so maybe it will get extended a while longer.

    I am surprised that MS has already announced that support will end for Win 8 in 2018. That doesn't give their customers much incentive to upgrade if they know they'll only get 4 or 5 years out of it. Win 8 isn't exactly flying off the shelves in stores so perhaps MS is viewing this as the next Vista and just intends to cut their losses and move on.

    It seems like every other OS that MS released over the past 15 years or so got a rather lukewarm welcome. Windows ME, Vista, and now Win 8 never seemed to tweak the public's interest as much as Win 98 (2nd edition), Win 2K, XP, and Win 7. People aren't all that interested in upgrading their OS every couple of years. I think most people upgrade when they have to or when they purchase a new PC with a newer OS. I only upgraded to Win 7 because it was the only way I could add cablecard tuner support to my HTPC. My PC at work still uses XP, although the company is gradually upgrading everyone to Win 7.

    FWIW, MCE will never die. Just because MS stops supporting it doesn't mean it can't be used indefinitely. It just means that there will be no further updates or releases. Even if MS stops providing guide data there are third party providers that can fill the gap. I know people that are still using Win 98. Any OS can be useful for as long as there is hardware available that can use it.
     
  20. Nov 10, 2013 #60 of 177
    Sixto

    Sixto Member

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    Hi All.

    Haven't posted here in 7 years.

    Been a devote DirecTV customer.

    Roamio Plus arrived Friday, for FiOS.

    Testing underway ...

    Very impressed so far, especially with the capability of the App.
     

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