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Does anyone use a roamio (or a mini) with a switch?

Discussion in 'TiVo Roamio DVRs' started by 2004raptor, May 4, 2014.

  1. Bigg

    Bigg On the fence to being a cord-cutter.

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    That's a very interesting concept, to have QoS ports in an unmanaged switch. The one place I could see it being super useful would be for a Microcell/AirRave/Network Extender/Ooma adapter, for most other things, QoS is probably way overkill. You can also do it all manually through the router, but I guess that can be kind of a pain.
     
  2. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    No real disagreement from me, at all.

    I just want to point out that what is different about this particular (Netgear GS605AV) switch is the manual "QoS/priority by color" method, while it will also allow the QoS designation of the port to be overridden, if QoS is already in the packets, due to a router, or another switch, usually of the managed type, which is adding tags. So, it can assign by port color, or fallback to just "honoring" what is already assigned/present.

    There's no shortage of completely unmanaged switches that will "honor" the QoS/Priority tags. Many of them don't advertise the fact. It's only in the fine print under "supported standards" or "product specifications/details". Even the NewEgg product page leaves it out of the main profile, and only lists it under the specifications tab.

    More often that most would expect, you can buy an equal quality and equal price switch that supports honoring the tags. If the tags are not present, those switches that do, just act like any other switch.

    If it always (or very often) took paying a premium to get a switch that at least honors QoS, I wouldn't be such an advocate of checking the specs, before making a purchase decision. I never told anybody to rip out existing switches, in favor of these (just that I did do so). Even for me, the by-color way is being overridden, after taking the time to assign a profile to each MAC address on my network, via my router, via the "Internet QoS" menu. It doesn't just manage the internet side, it manages both sides.

    It's literally a "QoS/Priority for dummies" switch, for people who want QoS, but don't want to have to configure anything (or minimal configuration). That it can still be used just to honor what already exists, makes it the best of both worlds (novice/advanced), and not limited by having the features it does.

    Like you said, VoIP (like Ooma) can benefit from it. That's my #1 reason I love them. I don't have to plug my VoIP boxes directly into my router anymore.

    Also, how often do you see a product with 100% positive reviews, like this one has? Last point, which was also in the reviews, is that the LEDs are dimmed-down, like a proper piece of AV equipment. Most Netgear products tend to have blinding LEDs, and a few don't have LEDs.
     
  3. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    But if you have the bandwidth, is QoS even needed? I'm on the 150/65 tier on FiOS. But even when I was on the 35/35 tier in 2007/2008, I never needed to worry about QoS. Everything worked without any prioritization since there was more than enough bandwidth, up and down, to go around.

    Now at my GFs house I have setup QoS in her router since she is on a slow DSL connection. WHich does help some. But you can only do so much with a slow connection.
     
  4. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    I guess I'll leave it up to you to say if 80/40 (plus powerboost) is slow.

    VoIP uses only a few k at best quality. It's highly subject to latency problems, just like newscast conversations taking place on opposite sides of the planet. Not the best example of the "latency" in the manner I am trying to speak of, but the result is about the same. Also, if packets get delayed too long, there will be garbling, or corruption, of the stream, as the packets arrive out-of-order, or are dropped.

    I'd very often be so far out of sync with the other party on a VoIP call to a store a few blocks away, it was easier to just use a cell phone.

    In past exchanges we've had about this you keep repeating things along the lines how with gigE, QoS really has no place in the equation, and/or talking about modern internet speeds being so fast. Then I keep saying that higher speeds don't improve latency, but instead tends to increase it (lower/lesser is better on latency, higher/more is worse).

    I use the speedtest sites, which give my internet an A+ rating, but the tests designed for VoIP testing, say it's terrible.

    I think that "powerboost" (boosting speeds momentarily, then throttling them back) is the root of my problems with VoIP, and some other things, like Netflix.

    With QoS on, my router throttles the speed-boosting, and gives more of a flat and consistent speed. I believe this autocorrects the latency problem. The improvement I see when running tests with QoS show an unmistakable and consistent improvement in VoIP suitability tests, and all I lose is a few seconds of doubled, or tripled, speed. What on earth do I need < 5 seconds of boost for, anyway? It's just another way Cox gets to make exaggerated claims, then cover themselves by putting real expectations in fine print (which are still not guaranteed minimums).

    In my quest to make VoIP work on two BasicTalk (discount Walmart Vonage) VoIP boxes for two "lines", and equal the experience of two landlines, I succeeded. On top of that, I now actually prefer to use my Roamios for streaming most supported internet video. Before this, I'd rather find something else to do, than use a TiVo for internet streaming. It was just that awful of an experience. This is why I always post when those switches go on sale, and speak so highly of them. While TiVos don't support QoS, if they are plugged into a QoS-by-color port, or I assign the TiVo MAC a priority, and the switch at least honors the tags, there will still be a difference in latency from the router to the switch.

    Ethernet switches use "store and forward". QoS says "these packets going to this device get to go first", in the simplest way I can possibly describe it.
     
  5. slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    And unless you are saturating your GigE network with full speed internal file transfers on a regular basis, most folks will never notice a diff. Router-wise I completely agree that QoS could be necessary for reliable VoIP quality.
     
  6. Bigg

    Bigg On the fence to being a cord-cutter.

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    I have a LOT of devices that have black or white electrical tape on them just to hide the absurd LEDs.
     
  7. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    I have been using LightDIMs to cover bright LEDs. They have worked very well. They have some that block 100% of the light and some that block around 80% of the light.

    http://www.amazon.com/LightDims-Original-Strength®/dp/B009WSJNCW
     
  8. Bigg

    Bigg On the fence to being a cord-cutter.

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    Those are pretty cool! 80% would be my choice, since I like to still be able to use the lights for diagnostics, just not have them blasting in my face.
     
  9. Alf Tanner

    Alf Tanner Tivo Dude

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    I've got 3 gigabit switches on my network and 2 routers. 2 Tivo minis and a roamio pro work well and I've had no issues, including a ridiculous torture test I engineered for the whole network.

    Main router: Asus n66u
    upstairs router: Linksys e4200v1
    downstairs switch 1: Dlink green 8 port unmanaged switch
    downstairs switch 2: tenda 5 port unmanaged switch
    upstairs switch 1: dlink 8 port smart switch.

    The most things I've seen on my network map was 40+ at once. I went through and wired everything with cat5e that could be wired, and a few months later replaced everything but a few cables with shielded cat6 cable.
     
  10. Alf Tanner

    Alf Tanner Tivo Dude

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    This part is super important for anyone with a stout home networking setup like I have. using MoCa + ethernet will wreck your throughput speed to any device with a wired ethernet cable or wireless. I did quite a bit of testing with my setup before disabling the moca, pulling up carpet and running an ethernet connection to my previously MoCa connected Tivo mini.
     
  11. Bigg

    Bigg On the fence to being a cord-cutter.

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    HUH? Why would that cause MoCA to be slower? It sounds like MoCA, the Stream, the TiVo itself, and the external port each have either a 100 or 1000mbps connection to the internal gig switch, so where's the bottleneck?
     
  12. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    It shouldn't make things slower. You could have several switches chained together, like I actually do, and it makes no difference. I can still get 960Mbps throughput going PC to PC through six GigE switches.

    And my MoCA speeds have been the same as my Ethernet speeds on my Roamio Pro. The issue for me has been the new TiVo software. Since the new software was installed the speeds have been much slower than they used to be.
     
  13. Alf Tanner

    Alf Tanner Tivo Dude

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    I was troubleshooting slow speeds with the help of people on the smallnetbuilder forums, and one of the suggestions was to test everything with the mini connected via MoCa then ethernet. When MoCa was enabled through kmttg I was only getting 65-80mbps of transfer speed to my main desktop, with MoCa disabled I was getting sustained over 110mbps transfers. From that I concluded that the ethernet connection slows down with MoCa enabled, like if when both were enabled the connection from the Roamio negotiated down to 100mbps.
     
  14. Alf Tanner

    Alf Tanner Tivo Dude

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    I did all of my transfer speed testing prior to the spring update so it could be different now, but that was my experience prior to the spring update. I've got 3 switches on my home network and a second router acting like a switch with dhcp, nat, and qos disabled and everything hooked to the lan ports.
     
  15. Bigg

    Bigg On the fence to being a cord-cutter.

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    Oh, you're talking about the TiVo's internal processing and software then. It sounded like you were talking about the network in the previous post. I'm surprised that the Roamios would run into issues with this, as they have a lot more muscle than the Premieres. I don't think they are all of the sudden dropped to 100mbps. That makes no sense, as you can mix 100 and 1000 devices on the same switch without issues. Even if that somehow happened, you'd be sitting right up against a "wall" so to speak, with the transfer rate rock solid right around 91mbps.
     
  16. Alf Tanner

    Alf Tanner Tivo Dude

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    I really have no idea whether it was the network part of the Tivo or its internal processing, but in my case it was definitely faster to disable MoCa and connect wired. I should have specified that in my original post, my apologies.

    There were some Tivo people on the SNB forums or at least one that was chiming in with his experiences. He thought there may be some sort of internal conflict with the tivo switch inside the roamio that has a bottleneck or just doesnt work as fast if you have both moca and ethernet enabled.
     
  17. eboydog

    eboydog Just TiVo'ing.....

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    The bandwidth of moca is different than a single switched Ethernet port, every device on moca takes away from the total bandwidth available. Myself, having 3 minis, a premiere and a Xbox on my moca kills the throughput on my transfers, common misunderstanding is comparing 100Mb/1tb Ethernet to the theoretical 271mbps of moca.

    If you know old school networking, moca is not a switched media, it more like a the old Ethernet hubs were only one interface can talk at any given time. What we all are waiting for is for TiVo to implement Moca 2.0, despite being approved, no one has yet to introduce Moca 2.0 retail device yet to the consumer, its all Moca 1.1.

    Problem is that TiVo is moving away from the transfer content design and is favoring the streaming concept which doesn't need high bandwidth paths so they apparently aren't in a hurry to embrace Moca 2.0 otherwise we would have had such with the roamios. They are more concerned with copy protection of content, in a few more years I fear TiVo to go and pyTivo will be things of the past.
     
  18. Bigg

    Bigg On the fence to being a cord-cutter.

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    So are you talking running OVER MoCA is slower, or over Ethernet is slower WHEN you have MoCA also connected? I thought you were referring to the latter. If you are referring to the former, than that's just a limitation of MoCA. MoCA can get up to ~90mbps or even a bit faster (although the adapters are limited by their 100mbps ports), but it can vary a lot depending on your setup.

    If it's just that the whole thing is slower when MoCA is running, that has to be some sort of processing bottleneck, as the internet switch should have a full 100 or 1000mbps to each device that it is connected to.

    1tb Ethernet? I WANT! :D Yes, it's shared, but it's not just split, if a device isn't transmitting, the full bandwidth is still available for other users. It's also more like wireless, where it never really gets close to it's theoretical maximum, although it's a lot more consistent than wireless, which is why it's good for video.

    There's a a Netgear wireless access point that has MoCA 2.0, but no adapter for the other end unless you buy two wireless access points...

    MoCA 2.0 hasn't been implemented anywhere... if it was even available, they probably didn't want to take a risk with it... They also don't need the bandwidth, since it would only work for DVR to DVR or DVR to PC transfers.

    Unfortunately CableLabs has driven them to all sorts of completely unnecessary encryption that only hurts legitimate consumers and make torrent a more attractive option for watching shows elsewhere.
     

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