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Discount due to Fios MPEG4 (rant)

16K views 116 replies 27 participants last post by  dianebrat 
#1 ·
Alright, so I am a bit frustrated at Tivo here. Let me know if you think I am out of place in my thinking.

First off, I have a TivoHD and I now can't get some channels on Fios due to the MPEG4 changes. The first part of my frustration with Tivo comes with the fact that the TivoHD supports MPEG4 (as shown by the Australian Tivo and Netflix), so this is pure "planned obsolescence." It had been known for years that the cable companies were going to move to MPEG4.

That said, I called up Tivo a week ago and they offer me a deal that was apparently offered a while back. $50 off a Premiere 4 and $200 off lifetime service for it ($498 total). This is of course not a deal, since MSD wise I already get $100 off and the box is easily found at >$80 off. More specifically, an example would be Tivo selling them through Woot for $149 with an included Stream. With MSD that would be $548 total with the included stream. So really, Tivo wasn't offering me anything special (and in some ways a worse deal). The deal offer gets more offensive when you think about the fact that the Premiere is now an obsolete product to Tivo. They are trying to get me to spend $500 on an outdated product, that I have no idea if the core functionality will be broken tomorrow on.

Now, I fully believe that they should offer me something special. They chose to make the box obsolete ahead of its "lifetime." Really, I think I should get a free lifetime on the replacement box as a consolation for the fact that they "broke" it intentionally. (Maybe a bit harsh in words, but they could have easily provided the functionality.)

So I call them back today. I explain how I feel that they have wronged me by knowingly not implementing something they new would be used in the near future. Then I said that I don't want an already out of date box (Premiere). Could they just provide the $200 discount on a box that I am less likely to fall prey to the same issues in the next couple of years (Roamio)? After waiting for 15 or so minutes on the phone for the rep to talk to a supervisor. The answer is NO (no offer of any kind). Basically, Tivo's failure is my loss. I guess I didn't expect much, but this new Tivo would be my 5th. I didn't think I was asking for too much.

Sad thing is I am perfectly happy with my TivoHD, I don't need to upgrade. However, if I am forced to upgrade, I am not going to spend my money on something that is already out of date.

Done. Alright, frustration vented.
 
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#53 ·
Those haven't actually been changed yet. The others in that list have, plus there are some new H.264 channels, like 735 (Sony) and 598 (BeIN).

I can assure you that the Series 3 does not in fact tune in the H.264 channels.
Just for clarification Series 3 = TiVoHD, yes?

I don't get those 2 channels either. I do get the Tennis Channel on 592 and that was still working for me also on my HD and is on the list.
 
#56 ·
This is such a BS argument. MPEG4 was absolutely KNOWN to be coming WAY before 2010. Frankly, back in 2007 there were clear discussions, and the sat/DBS providers had already started moving in that direction for the exact same reasons that everyone knew that MSOs would have to use at some point. Sure, the P3 was initially designed back around 2005/2006. However, it was marketed and SOLD as new for more than 5 years. By Tivo.

None of us know exactly why Tivo made the decisions that they made, however many actually expected VZ to move to MPEG4 well before they did. This is not the first time that Tivo has gone down a road that perhaps was not the best possible direction. I'm not saying they should need to plan for everything.

However.

This is Tivos ONLY business. Their ONLY means to stay relevant. If Tivo makes a decision that cripples their technology because they failed to effectively stay ahead of the market sufficiently that they can remain a leader, then it is an extremely poor reflection on their business model, and on their decision making process. It's just that simple. Period. Tivo totally and completely depends on content from the MSOs. It is VITAL to their interest to stay joined at the hip, test, test and more test, and to make nice with customers when they trip and fall from time to time. I find that Tivo met none of these particulars in this case.

Just my 2cents.
 
#57 ·
I have a Tivo 3, Tivo HD and now a Roamio. I do not like that Tivo didn't update the software on the series 3 when mpeg4 became available. Don't they already have it working in other areas (Austrailia?).

I don't think they should be required to update it. I think they should. I consider it poor customer service and a hint of how things may move in the future. That may well keep me from purchasing in the future if they continue to make these type of decisions.

If they choose to quit updating the software for basic functionality, they should remove or lower the monthly service fee to a maintenance level.
 
#58 ·
This is such a BS argument. MPEG4 was absolutely KNOWN to be coming WAY before 2010. Frankly, back in 2007 there were clear discussions, and the sat/DBS providers had already started moving in that direction for the exact same reasons that everyone knew that MSOs would have to use at some point. Sure, the P3 was initially designed back around 2005/2006. However, it was marketed and SOLD as new for more than 5 years. By Tivo.

None of us know exactly why Tivo made the decisions that they made, however many actually expected VZ to move to MPEG4 well before they did. This is not the first time that Tivo has gone down a road that perhaps was not the best possible direction. I'm not saying they should need to plan for everything.

However.

This is Tivos ONLY business. Their ONLY means to stay relevant. If Tivo makes a decision that cripples their technology because they failed to effectively stay ahead of the market sufficiently that they can remain a leader, then it is an extremely poor reflection on their business model, and on their decision making process. It's just that simple. Period. Tivo totally and completely depends on content from the MSOs. It is VITAL to their interest to stay joined at the hip, test, test and more test, and to make nice with customers when they trip and fall from time to time. I find that Tivo met none of these particulars in this case.

Just my 2cents.
The S3 platform has an H.264 decoder. So they had the foresight to include the hardware required to do H.264. The problem is that cable companies did not actually deploy H.264 channels while the S3 platform was still being developed for. So TiVo never had a viable test platform for adding support. In fact H.264 channels didn't really start popping up in cable systems until early last year, and even now they're still pretty rare nationwide.

Had they added the feature back when the S3 was still being sold, without proper testing, and it turned out to have some unforeseen flaw then they would have been forced to go back now and fix it even though the platform has been dead for over 3 years. That's not a wise business strategy.

It's not like TiVo has no option for these channels. You can buy a Premiere or a Roamio and these channels will work fine. The fact that you feel entitled to a major upgrade on box that was discontinued over 3 years ago is ridiculous. If you want to access these channels then buy a new TiVo.
 
#59 ·
If they choose to quit updating the software for basic functionality, they should remove or lower the monthly service fee to a maintenance level.
I bet the vast majority of S3 units still in service have lifetime service. Back when the S3 units were still being sold lifetime was only $199-$299 and was considered written off the books after 3 years. So as far as TiVo is concerned those users are not actually paying for service any longer.

If you're actually paying for monthly service then you should really consider upgrading. You can get a used Premiere without lifetime for about $40 and all your H.264 problems would be solved.
 
#60 ·
Verizon's long-stated FiOS plan since inception was to go IP... H.264 over QAM is a stopgap plan that only materialized in the last couple years. Fios might not have worked with any Tivos at all anymore right about now if not for their change of plans. So from another perspective, one might be glad that their old box can still get 95% of the available programming and not have a total paperweight, less they change providers.

Verizon themselves have been walking on eggshells to make sure only the lowest-traffic channels get transitioned over. They're all either in special packages, 2nd and 3rd tier premium channels, or otherwise (subjectively speaking) crappy channels only on the highest paying tier of service.

It would be nice if Tivo did an update. Certainly nobody would complain. But they can do the math and see how many people this impacts in real terms and how much they REALLY miss that low-traffic content.
 
#61 ·
The S3 platform has an H.264 decoder. So they had the foresight to include the hardware required to do H.264. The problem is that cable companies did not actually deploy H.264 channels while the S3 platform was still being developed for. So TiVo never had a viable test platform for adding support. In fact H.264 channels didn't really start popping up in cable systems until early last year, and even now they're still pretty rare nationwide.
Test Platform from 2008:
http://www.sri.com/newsroom/press-releases/sarnoff-releases-new-h264avc-bitstreams-opencable

That is not a valid argument anyways. You don't do most of your testing on a live cable tv system. Not in this thread, but in another one that I had seen, comments to this effect were rampant. Tivo does most of their testing before it is put out there. Other threads suggested that the majority of their testing was done in beta test type rollouts. That is not true. I grant you that Tivo would most likely have to make minor fixes as things rolled out and began to be used. However, most of those things should have been minor.

My argument was that it should have been in the product in the first place. Since it wasn't, how should they remedy? I gave up on a remedy, but that doesn't mean that I don't think there should have been one.
 
#62 ·
The S3 platform has an H.264 decoder. So they had the foresight to include the hardware required to do H.264. The problem is that cable companies did not actually deploy H.264 channels while the S3 platform was still being developed for. So TiVo never had a viable test platform for adding support. In fact H.264 channels didn't really start popping up in cable systems until early last year, and even now they're still pretty rare nationwide.

Had they added the feature back when the S3 was still being sold, without proper testing, and it turned out to have some unforeseen flaw then they would have been forced to go back now and fix it even though the platform has been dead for over 3 years. That's not a wise business strategy.

It's not like TiVo has no option for these channels. You can buy a Premiere or a Roamio and these channels will work fine. The fact that you feel entitled to a major upgrade on box that was discontinued over 3 years ago is ridiculous. If you want to access these channels then buy a new TiVo.
I'm sorry, but I simply do not buy this argument in any fashion. If the hardware is there, then development and testing is possible. The platform is not "dead". Tivo chose to change their licensing model (subscription) and there are plenty of those units out there.

Please don't assume I think that I should be "entitled to a major upgrade to a box that was discontinued over 3 years ago". I said nothing of the kind. However, I also did not say it was reasonable to simply abandon customers and tell them to "buy a new Tivo". And actually, if they provided a way to at least partially subsidize the "lifetime support" we've already paid for then I'd also be OK.

However, I simply do not in any possible way buy your justification for Tivo to behave this way.

Let me take this a bit further. I think it's this kind of after the fact acceptance of Tivo acting this way that continues to give them reason to treat customers differently than they should. The BOTTOM LINE for which there is ZERO DEBATE is that Tivo is a 3rd party, totally dependent on them staying aligned with the MSOs as far technology is concerned. Without them being aligned with the MSOs, Tivo is utterly, and totally dead. Zero value.
 
#63 ·
Other threads suggested that the majority of their testing was done in beta test type rollouts. That is not true.
It is true! I've been part of several early beta tests where core functionality was still broken. And before they let in people like me they do a lot of their testing in the wild using their employees. Bench tests only get you so far. Working in the video industry myself I can tell you that broadcasters rarely follow the specs. So you have to account for many, many, variations and the only reliable way to do that is to test in the wild.

Just look at what's going on over in the Roamio forum with the 6 tuners. There are tons of people who are having problems using more then 4 tuners because of minor variations in CableCARD and tuning adapter firmware. Even though I'm sure they designed the product exactly to spec.
 
#64 ·
The BOTTOM LINE for which there is ZERO DEBATE is that Tivo is a 3rd party, totally dependent on them staying aligned with the MSOs as far technology is concerned. Without them being aligned with the MSOs, Tivo is utterly, and totally dead. Zero value.
That's actually not true. Over the last few years TiVo has been shifting their business away from being a retail product to being an MSO supplier. They saw how difficult it was to be a 3rd party and how the MSOs could screw them over at any time (i.e. SDV) and decided the only way they were going to survive was to be on the inside.

At this point I think the retail portion is nothing more then something to keep them afloat until they can become a major MSO supplier. It also gives them a test platform for new technologies that the MSOs might be reluctant to implement on their own.

The Roamio may very well be the last retail DVR TiVo ever sells.
 
#65 ·
That's actually not true. Over the last few years TiVo has been shifting their business away from being a retail product to being an MSO supplier. They saw how difficult it was to be a 3rd party and how the MSOs could screw them over at any time (i.e. SDV) and decided the only way they were going to survive was to be on the inside.

At this point I think the retail portion is nothing more then something to keep them afloat until they can become a major MSO supplier. It also gives them a test platform for new technologies that the MSOs might be reluctant to implement on their own.

The Roamio may very well be the last retail DVR TiVo ever sells.
Actually, Dan - you just made my point. Tivo is utterly and totally dependent on the MSOs. Either they become a supplier to the MSO, or they are a 3rd party retailer. In either case, they are 3rd party and cannot survive without the MSOs.

In particular, as more and more "cut the cord" and move to streaming capabilities, Tivo is far from a leader in that case. So, it behooves Tivo to protect the subscription base. Beyond that, if they have decided to simply become a major MSO provider and the Roamio is the last retail DVR (which would also not surprise me), then everything is changed. It makes the entire "lifetime subscription" value debatable, support is debatable, etc.

BTW, I would not criticize Tivo for doing this. I've said for years that their only real opportunity for growth is to sell their tech directly to the MSOs. Between the increased competition from MSO DVRs, and the increasing amount of content via streaming, Tivo is not in a good place, and their value proposition continues to become more and more problematic.
 
#66 ·
It is true! I've been part of several early beta tests where core functionality was still broken. And before they let in people like me they do a lot of their testing in the wild using their employees. Bench tests only get you so far. Working in the video industry myself I can tell you that broadcasters rarely follow the specs. So you have to account for many, many, variations and the only reliable way to do that is to test in the wild.

Just look at what's going on over in the Roamio forum with the 6 tuners. There are tons of people who are having problems using more then 4 tuners because of minor variations in CableCARD and tuning adapter firmware. Even though I'm sure they designed the product exactly to spec.
Dan, again we disagree. Tivo has the ability to test against the major MSOs. They "choose" to not invest in such capabilities. I'm not suggesting that they should or should not. Only that they DO have the capability. Tivo is actually in a good position in terms of their ability to manage change - if they elected to do so. So much of their ecosystem is totally within their control it's amazing. I get so ticked off when people make arguments like "well, you have to reboot your pc sometimes" as an explanation as to why Tivos reboot, lock up, etc. That's BS. Total BS. There are VERY few variables outside of Tivos ability to control in terms of environmental factors. Tivo totally controls the UI, and ALL applications. Users do not have (without hacking) the ability to in any possible way modify a single byte of Tivo software. None. We can't add apps. We can't change apps. We can't install 3rd party apps. Certainly there are other factors, such as cablecard implementation (by MSO), signal strength, etc - but that's about it. And all of those "could" be tested - easily. I think you know that.
 
#67 ·
Verizon's long-stated plan since inception was to go IP. h.264 over QAM is a stopgap plan that only materialized in the last couple years. Fios might not work at all with any Tivo anymore right about now if not for their change of plans. So from another perspective, one might be glad that they can still get 95% of the available programming and not have a total paperweight, less they change providers.

Verizon themselves have been walking on eggshells to make sure only the lowest-traffic channels get transitioned over. They're all either in special packages, 2nd and 3rd tier premium channels, or otherwise (subjectively speaking) crappy channels only on the highest paying tier of service.

It would be nice if Tivo did an update. Certainly nobody would complain. But they can do the math and see how many people this impacts in real terms and how much they REALLY miss that low-traffic content.
I'm very happy Verizon changed their plans. I read about it years ago and back then I had figured by now I would have had to switch to Comcast to continue using my TiVos.
 
#68 ·
I'm very happy Verizon changed their plans. I read about it years ago and back then I had figured by now I would have had to switch to Comcast to continue using my TiVos.
You and me both. That Media Server coming out might be a very different beast otherwise, and the party would be over for everyone.

And the IPTV plan predates even the Tivo HD. So this debate swings both ways. Since Verizon's actual plan of IPTV was known, why get a Tivo HD when it ran the risk of bricking? Heck, I remember being concerned about buying a Premiere because the IPTV transition was increasingly looming and talked about. Risk was built-in from the start. We ALL got lucky that they changed direction and just about the only loss to date has been the least-watched channels on the older hardware.
 
#69 ·
Dan, again we disagree. Tivo has the ability to test against the major MSOs. They "choose" to not invest in such capabilities. I'm not suggesting that they should or should not. Only that they DO have the capability. Tivo is actually in a good position in terms of their ability to manage change - if they elected to do so. So much of their ecosystem is totally within their control it's amazing. I get so ticked off when people make arguments like "well, you have to reboot your pc sometimes" as an explanation as to why Tivos reboot, lock up, etc. That's BS. Total BS. There are VERY few variables outside of Tivos ability to control in terms of environmental factors. Tivo totally controls the UI, and ALL applications. Users do not have (without hacking) the ability to in any possible way modify a single byte of Tivo software. None. We can't add apps. We can't change apps. We can't install 3rd party apps. Certainly there are other factors, such as cablecard implementation (by MSO), signal strength, etc - but that's about it. And all of those "could" be tested - easily. I think you know that.
My point was that 3 years ago when they stopped development for the S3 platform there were no MSOs using H.264 so there was nothing to test against even if they wanted to. They could have tested against the spec and thrown the code into the product in hopes that it would work when/if the MSOs decided to switch to H.264. However if they had done that and there was a problem people would expect them to fix it and they'd be worse off then they are now. At least now they can just say the S3 platform does not support H.264. If they had a broken implementation then they'd have to fix it or deal with constant support complaints from people who were having issues.
 
#70 ·
Test Platform from 2008:
http://www.sri.com/newsroom/press-releases/sarnoff-releases-new-h264avc-bitstreams-opencable

That is not a valid argument anyways. You don't do most of your testing on a live cable tv system. Not in this thread, but in another one that I had seen, comments to this effect were rampant. Tivo does most of their testing before it is put out there. Other threads suggested that the majority of their testing was done in beta test type rollouts. That is not true. I grant you that Tivo would most likely have to make minor fixes as things rolled out and began to be used. However, most of those things should have been minor.

My argument was that it should have been in the product in the first place. Since it wasn't, how should they remedy? I gave up on a remedy, but that doesn't mean that I don't think there should have been one.
You do most of your testing in-house, but should do quite a bit of it on live systems. Otherwise, some unexpected problems could happen after you launch and you could be in big trouble. Tivo never promised H.264 support, and rightfully so.

It's also obvious Tivo doesn't do ANY real testing on live systems, and are perfectly happy to let the early adopters be beta testers. See the Roamio threads about 6 tuners and HBO/Cinemax not working properly. How could they possibly miss that? All they had to do was use older CableCards and they couldn't even bother to do that. Unless they planned on using their customers' anger and frustration as leverage to get the other companies to fix their problems....

Finally, if it should have been in the product, but it wasn't, and was never promised, AND YOU BOUGHT IT ANYWAY, whose fault is that? All yours, I'm afraid.
 
#71 ·
It's also obvious Tivo doesn't do ANY real testing on live systems, and are perfectly happy to let the early adopters be beta testers. See the Roamio threads about 6 tuners and HBO/Cinemax not working properly. How could they possibly miss that? All they had to do was use older CableCards and they couldn't even bother to do that.
Do you realize what you're asking for? Cablecards are tied to particular head-end software, with proprietary software on both ends. You're asking TiVo to duplicate hundreds of different set-ups, all proprietary, in house, in order to test older cards. That sounds impossible to me, not just something "they couldn't even bother to do".
 
#72 ·
I realize the whole principle of the thing being debated, but does anybody regularly watch the channels that are now mpeg4?

I find it not a coincidence that the channels on the list that I receive have not been converted. I take this to mean that FIOS is only converting the least watched channels. Far be it for me to dictate anybody's taste, but in the scheme of things it seems a relatively minute annoyance.

FIOS needs to convert to MPEG4 so they can distribute more channels. I think this is a good thing even if eventually I lost a few channels. Now obviously it would not be good for me if I lost all the HD channels. Perhaps I should look at selling my TiVoHD. I wonder what I could get for it. It has a lifetime subscription and an upgraded HD. I think I upgraded to 1 TB.
 
#73 ·
Mr. Unnatural......They did NOt do their obligation. Mpeg4 came out well within the 3yr obligation for support. and Tivo chose not to update their systems, even though the HARDWARE could support h.264 (and does for netflix, etc). That forced obsolescence of the product.

Back in 2010, everyone knew cable companies were going to H.265 to save space on the cable. It wasn't 'out of the blue'
Welcome to the world of Tivo. You buy a Tivo and you're locked into whatever capabilities the box has to offer. If something new comes along the the current model can't handle or they're unable to fix it with a software upgrade, you may or may not see it in the next model they release. It's one of the reasons I switched to using a HTPC as my DVR and dumped Tivo. I'm on FIOS and don't have any issues with mpeg4 since the transition was seamless for me. I already had the codecs installed for mpeg4 playback.
 
#75 ·
#76 ·
Welcome to the world of Tivo. You buy a Tivo and you're locked into whatever capabilities the box has to offer. If something new comes along the the current model can't handle or they're unable to fix it with a software upgrade, you may or may not see it in the next model they release. It's one of the reasons I switched to using a HTPC as my DVR and dumped Tivo. I'm on FIOS and don't have any issues with mpeg4 since the transition was seamless for me. I already had the codecs installed for mpeg4 playback.
That wouldn't have been the case if you were using Windows XP. MS did not support H.264 in the original DVR-MS format they used for MCE recordings. They didn't add support until they created the WTV format. The WTV format was sort of ported back to Vista, but was only fully supported in Win7. If you had been using XP then you would have been forced to do a Windows upgrade, which would have cost abut $150, to gain the ability to record H.264. MS essentially did the same thin as TiVo. There was no technical limitation preventing them from porting the WTV format back to XP, but they chose not to because XP had been discontinued and it was not in their interest to do so.
 
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