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Discount due to Fios MPEG4 (rant)

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by socrplyr, Sep 26, 2013.

  1. Sep 26, 2013 #21 of 117
    Grakthis

    Grakthis New Member

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    A lot of people bought analog TVs within 3 years of the digital rollout. I promise you, no TV manufacturer gave them their money back or a discount on a new TV. The government offered a discount on a converter box... that's it.

    This is how technology works. Some people haven't been touched by this (*waves*) some people have.

    Expecting that a 200-300 dollars piece of technology will support all standards forever is naivety at the best and a gross case of the "gimmes" at the worst.

    I bought a Sprint cell phone that was supposedly 4G and before 4G came to my town, they canceled the entire WiMax rollout and switched to LTE. The 4G feature of my phone never happened. They had no obligation, moral, ethical or economic, to do anything about that.

    Anyone buy a PS3 in the last 3 years? Guess what? PS4 games don't run on it. Is that planned obsolescence? It literally is.

    If you don't like these kinds of situations, I suggest you don't ever buy any technology ever.
     
  2. Sep 26, 2013 #22 of 117
    philhu

    philhu User Since Day ONE!

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    From the UCC (Universal Commercial Code act)

    It is the merchantability and fitness clauses.

    I did mis-speak.

    The 3 year parts are part of Massachusetts consumer law

    And, no, they were not within their fitness for use. They IMPLIED that they can received 'all' subscribed channels with a cable card. The could not and can never support H.264 channels, even though they did start to appear BEFORE the TivoHD was phased out. I had 2 H.264 channels on comcast in 12/2009. (HBO-HD DISCOVERY SCIENCE-HD). I had a tivoHD at the time and got a cablebox from Comcast for Video on demand and to watch these 2 channels
     
  3. Sep 26, 2013 #23 of 117
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    There were millions of CableCARD ready TVs sold back then as well, that also did not have the hardware to support H.264. In fact I remember there being a bit of a debate as to whether it would even be legal for cable companies to deploy H.264 channels. But then when Time Warner proved that they could get away with basically anything with the whole SDV rollout that opened the flood gates.
     
  4. Sep 26, 2013 #24 of 117
    jrtroo

    jrtroo User

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    While interesting that this was offered, this does not show the market accepted it as a standard or that the market was shifting to this as a wide-spread move. That product is a "build it, they will come".
     
  5. Sep 26, 2013 #25 of 117
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    Cisco also offers a CableCARD that supports 8 tuners. However the current industry standard is still 6 and according to the FCC the providers are only required to support 4 unless they offer a 6 tuner DVR of their own for rent. So just because Cisco makes something doesn't mean it's a standard.
     
  6. Sep 26, 2013 #26 of 117
    philhu

    philhu User Since Day ONE!

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    I will give you this one. I do remember the H.264 rollout problems with uncompatible cable boxes. No one got in trouble for that one.
     
  7. Sep 26, 2013 #27 of 117
    socrplyr

    socrplyr Active Member

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    Alright, I couldn't find the direct OpenCable thing, but this article about a testing framework from April 2008 is pretty damning.
    http://www.sri.com/newsroom/press-releases/sarnoff-releases-new-h264avc-bitstreams-opencable
    This also refutes those who suggested Tivo didn't have a way to test it ahead of time. It also shows that for Host 2.1 compliance it was needed.
     
  8. Sep 26, 2013 #28 of 117
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    Who's to say they didn't test it and it failed? The S3 platform was developed back in 2005. You're basing your assumption that it could support H.264 via a software update on the fact that the Aus/NZ TiVos support it and are based on the same platform. However the S3 OLED units and the TiVo HD units are based on the same platform and yet the HD units support M cards and the OLED units do not. My point is there could have been a minor hardware tweak in the Aus/NZ units that allows it to do something the S3/HD units can not. We don't really know why TiVo chose not to add support for H.264 to the S3 platform. I'm making just as many assumptions as you are in that regard. I assume it's because the time it was needed the S3 platform had long since been replaced. You assume it's because of "planned obsolescence". We could both be wrong and it could actually be that it's impossible due to hardware constraints.
     
  9. Sep 26, 2013 #29 of 117
    bradleys

    bradleys It'll be fine....

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    I have said for a while that I think TiVo should bite the bullet and update the software to support h.264 on the S3 models.

    With that said - expecting some dramatic discount on a Roamio isn't reasonable and seems more then just a little self serving. If they were to do that, then I would be all in with my two S3 units. I might even try to drag the S2 unit out of the closet and upgrade it as well! No, that option would put TiVo out of business in a minute!!!

    However, the h.264 does hurt the secondary market on TiVo's and I do think that market brings value to TiVo. It gives hesitant people an opportunity to get hooked on the environment and more likely to upgrade their TiVo's in the future.

    It goes to opportunity cost for TiVo, what value does upgrading the S3's bring them? Good will of existing customers? Bah... They don't even count the lifetime S3's as part of the financial install base any longer. A secondary market feeder that can bring future revenues and sales? Maybe...

    But just because I can make a case for it, doesn't mean they will move forward with it - and by the middle of next year I will have retired all of my S3 models anyway, so the impact is minimal to me.

    So, if that is planned obsolescence - so be it.

    btw - I think it was pretty nice of them to offer you the Premier upgrade discout. I wouldn't take it either, but it was at least a resonable gesture.

    I am putting my two S3's onto ebay soon, if I can get $250 - I will be pretty happy with the overall investment. (I have fios, and I haven't actually experienced a channel I can't tune yet - don't know why.)
     
  10. Sep 26, 2013 #30 of 117
    socrplyr

    socrplyr Active Member

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    Maybe maybe not. Don't forget the Netflix is H.264. Also, H.264 decode would pretty much be solely decided by the SoC. I am pretty sure the one from the TivoHD supports it. Netflix is a lower bit rate than cable H.264, so maybe there is a rate limitation on it. It is possible, but in all likelihood, Tivo did not make the effort to put in support. When their next product came out, they abandoned the S3 and and never added it.
     
  11. Sep 26, 2013 #31 of 117
    socrplyr

    socrplyr Active Member

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    I don't think $100 off a $1250 purchase is a dramatic discount (I didn't mention this originally, but I would be replacing 2 TivoHDs w/ a Pro and a Mini). I bet it will be bested by holiday time discounts. You must also remember, they offered me the $100 ($200) discount off of service. Service for the Premiere and service for the Roamio are identical.

    Financially, I bet that neither offering a discount or fixing it is worthwhile to them. I am a consumer though and I don't always think in financial terms. There is some level of good will to be had.

    I do agree that they tried to do something with the Premiere and that was somewhat of a nice gesture. However, right now they are willing to make much bigger gestures elsewhere (Woot, etc.). The net discount offer to me was $150. If you include the retail price of the stream, the Woot discount was $240. They are trying to get rid of these boxes. These boxes won't be supported into the future, just like the TivoHD. I am likely to have some similar problem in a couple more years. That isn't much of a gesture. I know the CSR was working within what he/she could do. I don't expect to get anything more from Tivo.
    I just didn't like the response, so I thought I would post about it.
     
  12. Sep 26, 2013 #32 of 117
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    Actually the Netflix client the S3 units use stream VC-1, not H.264. However Amazon HD does use H.264 and there is a way to push H.264 from a PC to a S3 via pyTiVo so we know the hardware supports H.264 decoding. However that does not mean there isn't some other limitation that's preventing them from supporting H.264 broadcasts.

    My point is we really don't know their reasoning on this. In all likelihood they probably could have supported it via a software upgrade and simply chose not to. Was it because they wanted to push people to buy a new TiVo? Or was it because by the time it was needed the platform was obsolete? I think it was actually a little of both. They didn't add H.264 support to the Premiere units until 2012. At that point they had almost no incentive to back port it to the S3 units and extra incentive not to. If you consider a decision not to upgrade a platform that had not been sold in 2 years "planned obsolescence" then you're probably right.
     
  13. Sep 26, 2013 #33 of 117
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    That's a significant upgrade. You're going from 4 tuners to 6, 320GB of storage to 3TB, and getting a built in Stream, MoCa and Wifi. You'll also be able to return one of your CableCARDs, saving whatever fees are associated with that, and be able to stream recordings between rooms, even as they are recordoing, rather then having to use the slow transfer method that had to wait until the recording was done to work.

    That must have some value to you, no?

    Plus think of it this way... Say you get $400 selling the HDs, that brings the price down to $850. If you use those for say 4 years you'll only have paid $18/mo, which I'm sure is cheaper then the DVR offered by your cable company. Plus the Roamio and Mini will still have value so you can sell them to subsidize the upgrade to the next big thing.
     
  14. Sep 26, 2013 #34 of 117
    bradleys

    bradleys It'll be fine....

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    I was looking at this, which depending on model, would be a 50% or better discount off of the retail price.


    But it doesn't bring a stampede of people using an aging S3 to leverage a discount on a Roamio... I also don't think that you are going to see any holiday discounts on the Roamio line this year, maybe next year. By all reports sales are exceeding production at this point, so I think the price is going to stay right where it is.
     
  15. Sep 26, 2013 #35 of 117
    atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    My take was they should offer $100 below current price (unit & lifetime service) with MSD, that is not really a big deal for TiVo but still gives the affected users something that no one else can get now so $500, $700, & $900.
     
  16. Sep 26, 2013 #36 of 117
    socrplyr

    socrplyr Active Member

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    I agree that it is a substantial upgrade. (Thus, why I asked for a small discount, not to pay zero.) I don't see the Premiere 4 at $500 + a Mini at $250 as much of an upgrade. Same number of tuners, 50% more storage (which isn't an issue for me). CableCards are $5 per month, so the pay off time is 12.5 years. I don't use Hulu and HD Interface doesn't really get me anything. I am willing to pay to upgrade (especially if it is on my own terms). This isn't on my own terms, so I was seeing if I could get some consideration for that. Unfortunately for me the answer was no. That wasn't surprising as a response. Just disappointing.

    In general, I "invest" in things. I buy things that will last me a long time. I pay for lifetime as it will pay off in the long term. Here I feel that term was cut short.
     
  17. Sep 26, 2013 #37 of 117
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    One thing to be aware of...

    As of right now the Stream, the part that sends video to an iPad, does not work with H.264 channels. Not sure if that effects your buying decision in any way but just an FYI.

    See TiVo isn't even 100% up on H.264 support for their current line of products. There is no way they're going to go back and add it to a discontinued product from 3+ years ago.
     
  18. Sep 26, 2013 #38 of 117
    socrplyr

    socrplyr Active Member

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    One more thing I just realized. If I sell my old boxes, I will now lose my MSD for future purchases. That is annoying, since I am being pushed into this purchase.
     
  19. Sep 26, 2013 #39 of 117
    socrplyr

    socrplyr Active Member

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    That is nice to know. It doesn't change my choice right now. I have no intention to use the stream anytime soon. It is just for the future.

    Yes, I don't expect Tivo to add it to the old product either. That is why I was focused more on the getting something for the fact that they didn't implement it in the first place.
     
  20. Sep 26, 2013 #40 of 117
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    If you use the coupon code PLSR at checkout, rather then MSD, you'll get full lifetime for the same price. (it's a $100 off code)
     

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