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4TB Roamio Image community edition

Discussion in 'TiVo Upgrade Center' started by telemark, May 26, 2014.

  1. Jun 18, 2014 #21 of 376
    Heretic

    Heretic New Member

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    Yea, I reseated the cable several times, and then yanked the nearest HDMI cable from the device it was in. I probably kinked the first HDMI cable or something, they are old cables. I watched it closely where it lost video before, and it was a 480i => 720p switch I believe. Might have been 480p, but I think it was 480i at bootup.

    637 hours of HD and all that jazz. Sweet.
     
  2. Jun 26, 2014 #22 of 376
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    So will this work with any of the Roamio Models? I have a Roamio Pro and wouldn't mind upgrading to a 4TB Seagate A/V drive.
     
  3. Jun 26, 2014 #23 of 376
    jmbach

    jmbach der Neuerer

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    Yes it will. It has been tested successfully on a Roamio Basic and a Plus. The only difference between a Pro and a Plus is the hard drive.

    The Seagate A/V drive should work in the Pro. I have one in my Premiere. There was a TCF member trying to use a Seagate drive in a Roamio Basic. The unit kept on rebooting. It was thought that the power requirements for the Seagate drive was too much for the Basic's power supply. (The Seagate drives both A/V and non A/V draw about 3.5 watts more than a WDC equivalent)
     
  4. Jun 26, 2014 #24 of 376
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    :eek: Holy Crap!! I guess the Seagate is out. I see the seagate is listed as drawing 8 watts while the WD drive is listed as drawing only 5.1 watts. I'm surprised there is such a huge difference. So if I do this I will make sure I get the 4TB WD AV-GP drive.

    EDIT: Hmmm.. surprisingly the 3TB WD AV-GP drives draw 6 watts. So the 4TB version actually draws less power than the 3TB versions.
    Well maybe that is one of the differences with the newest ones(WD40PURX). I'm looking at the specs for the EURX and EURS 3TB drives and the EURS for the 4TB version. I don't see the specs for the WD40PURX model.

    EDIT: I found the specs for the 4TB PURX. The Power usage is the same as the 4TB EURS. THE PURX version is 1 dBA louder.
     
  5. Jun 27, 2014 #25 of 376
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Cox Cable...
    I recall an article about some of the drives using 1TB platters and others using 800GB platters, which might have something to do with the amperage, in this case. I think the differing platter technologies like, perpendicular technology, use differing thickness platters, as well. These differences can make a huge difference in spin-up current, but once spinning most of it would seem to be airflow/drag related (which more platters/heads increases).

    The reviews of the Purple drive are hard to make any sense of, right now. It seems WD, across all lines, has been shiping more drives that are DOA, or fail quickly, than good ones, causing reviews on all their drives to tank. The ones with the most reviews take longer for the overall rating to move negatively. I'm not buying any more drives for a while, until this reverses. If I absolutely have to buy a drive, it's not going to be WD, for now.

    If you want to be one of the first to try the Purple in a TiVo... Well, somebody has to do it. I just wish it could be without the dark cloud over WD right now.

    I wouldn't worry much about the power supply stressing in a Plus/Pro. I can say that my 3TB WD Red NAS drives share the same power profile as the 3TB AV-GP and make my base Roamio wall-warts hot to the touch, if not well ventilated (worries me a bit).

    I'm sure you'll keep us posted, so I need not ask...
     
  6. Jun 27, 2014 #26 of 376
    telemark

    telemark New Member

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    Within a line, probably total platter mass will explain the power variance, which should translate to number of platters, followed by platter thickness.

    Within a manufacturer, newer drives will be more efficient given the same platter mass.

    The 4TB drive on my dev bench is a Purple. So I can say it has no spin up problems and it can boot into guided setup on Roamio Basic and Premiere.

    I've been meaning to check whether it can KS 54.
     
  7. Jun 27, 2014 #27 of 376
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Cox Cable...
    Pay particular attention to the long/extended scan, and the offline SMART data collection tests.

    I never had an upgrade drive work with the TiVo non-SMART tests, but they've always done the SMART-specific ones, and all of them, until my base-Roamios and my 3TB WD Red NAS drives.

    My three base-Roamios can only do self-test, short test, and conveyance tests with the Reds. The other two long tests I gave up after 4000+ minutes of running each, one one at a time, trying all three Roamios.

    It could be due to a subset of the idle-timer that is specific to WD Red NAS drives, which I have yet to try adjusting/disabling. I know that a run of the usual tool for WD (wdidle3.exe) reported they all were set disabled. Then, later on I find out there's a specific tool for those drives. My WAG is that the time between the TiVo polling the drive's test status my be letting that specific timer time-out, and the tests either stop, or I just never see they have completed for some reason.
     
  8. Jun 27, 2014 #28 of 376
    L David Matheny

    L David Matheny Active Member

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    FWIW: I upgraded my base Roamio with a 3TB WD AV-GP drive. The unit sits out in the open, as does its wall-wart power supply. The wall-wart runs fairly warm to the touch, but I wouldn't call it "hot", at least not enough to be worrisome.
     
  9. Jul 5, 2014 #29 of 376
    Heretic

    Heretic New Member

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    Hrm, I see there's now a replacement not a month after I bought the WD40EURX in the WD40PURX. I imagine the Purple will work just fine. I've used about 20% of the space in the WD40EURX, so far it's worked well and I'm happy with it. Definitely quiet. I only got the Tuning Adapter working a few days ago actually so now I'm starting to record a lot more.

    I would certainly say if it failed. Picture quality on the cable provider is pretty good on some feeds. Definitely feed dependent it seems, but seems there's good potential for image quality. I had gotten the 4-tuner one to fall back to over-the-air, but now I'm regretting not starting with the Plus for the extra tuners. Oh wells!
     
  10. Jul 6, 2014 #30 of 376
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Cox Cable...
    Is that going by NewEgg's auto-scripting of "newer model available"? I'm seriously believing that to be in error, or an attempt by WD to call attention to their new drive line, by misleading NewEgg.

    Unless WD re-words their marketing materials and spec sheets for the Purple PURX drives, I see them more as a drive made for RAID arrays that handle AV exclusively. The Red NAS line has actually been the leader on that front (they are also AV-rated).

    Then again, the AV-GP line was used in TiVos for a long time before WD ever changed the marketing and spec sheets to include TV DVR usage. One thing the AV-GP line was NEVER marketed for was use in arrays. They were always intended to be standalone drives.

    The Red NAS are marketed for stand-alone and array use, while The Purple seems to not really be marketed for single-drive use (although not specifically stated as "not for use as"). Sometimes the specs say little about usage scenarios, and all there is to go by is the marketing materials.

    I got the base-Roamios for OTA fallback capability too. I'm happy with that decision, and just bought more Roamios, giving me the tuners I needed, plus more storage, as well as redundancy and load-balancing.

    My testing of the Red NAS outside of TiVo, is showing they start off strong at over 150MB/s max on the inner tracks (low LBAs), but steadily arc down to as low as 60MB/s on the outer tracks (high LBAs). That's with consecutive reads and writes all the way, and only one at a time. I'm not sure that those slower outer tracks are well-suited for 6-tuners of HD, or even 4...

    Still doing some testing, and need to get back to it. I have determined (for certain) that the wdidle3.exe tool does NOT stop the Red NAS from parking the heads during inactivity. It will report the idle-timer disabled, but the Reds have their own tool to adjust this, which I'm about to do some testing with.
     
  11. Jul 6, 2014 #31 of 376
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    :eek: 60MB/s?!?! That low?!?! That is only 480Mb/s.

    Although that is still faster than a TiVo would need. Worst case would be 12 streams at 19Mb/s. Which in reality would never happen. but that would still only be 228Mb/s.

    60MB/s just seems awfully slow.

    On another note. Will this upgrade also work with 5TB or 6TB drives? Assuming the TiVo can handle the power demands of those drives. I've noticed the prices for the 5TB and 6TB drives have dropped recently. I've seen 6TB drives going for under $300 recently. Although I'm not sure how hot those drives would be since they use six, 1TB platters.

    I'm still not sure if I'm going to try this with my Roamio Pro. But I do want to keep my options open if I see a great price on the 4TB and larger drives.
     
  12. Jul 6, 2014 #32 of 376
    telemark

    telemark New Member

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    5TB & 6TB is being checked out but it's too early to say anything except it does not immediately work.
     
  13. Jul 6, 2014 #33 of 376
    Heretic

    Heretic New Member

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    So I did research the Purple's more. They are an upgraded AV-GP (ie Green) for sure. They have the same aggregate transfer speed and power draw--5.1W @ 4TB loaded--but they appear to have a tweaked firmware or upgraded controller that allows up to 32 simultaneous streams. The drive I purchases, via the ATA7 Streaming command set, can support up to 12 simultaneous streams while the newer Purple drive will sport up to 32 simultaneous steams. This is targetting at more the surveillance market for many cameras.

    Overall, doesn't matter for TiVo given you're not gonna hit 12-streams anyway.
     
  14. Jul 6, 2014 #34 of 376
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    I thought it could hit twelve read/write streams? How many Minis can be streamed concurrently? Just on the main Roamio Pro/Plus there are seven streams happening concurrently all the time. The six tuners and the one tuner being viewed. Since the content is written to the drive first before being read to be sent to the HDMI out. I know it can be at least three Minis plus streaming/transferring to another TiVo. That is eleven streams right there.


    EDIT: Based on this quote from 2013 it looks like it will do 12 streams since this person was streaming to five Minis concurrently. So six tuners all being written to the drive. And then six streams being read, all concurrent.

    Although I'm pretty sure since the last software update I might have issues doing this since the max transfer speeds from my Roamio Pro are so much slower than with the previous software.
     
  15. Jul 6, 2014 #35 of 376
    Heretic

    Heretic New Member

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    Each active TiVo Mini uses a tuner while streaming content, whether live off the tuner or streaming from disk. You can have 8 total Minis in a single home ie on the same network, pulling from some set of TiVo DVRs but each DVR is limited by its # of tuners. I found this out after getting the ATSC compatible 4-tuner TiVo in case the cable option didn't work out, but yea more tuners are good especially for the Minis. The documentation says:

    So your number of read/write streams are limited by # of tuners ultimately. Because of this, you won't hit the 12 stream limit on the GP-AV line.

    Either way, the Purple line should work just fine in TiVos. The power draw is the same, supports same features. It supports more streams at 32 versus 12 in the older line, though they go unused it shouldn't hurt compatibility in any way.
     
  16. Jul 7, 2014 #36 of 376
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    NOT SO FAST:

    As I always have to keep pointing out, when any drive maker specifies "streams" supported on an AV-drive, they are specifically stating streams using the AV Streaming Feature, also known as the "ATA Streaming Command Set" extensions, which TiVo does not utilize. TiVo utilizes plain data reads and writes. TiVo would have to completely re-invent a new file system, and re-code the software to use it.

    When it comes to TiVos (every one ever made), you can not use that "streams" supported number. You must calculate the bandwidth of the stream for each tuner (SD will be lower than HD), and what the standard data transfer rate of the drive is, and if the drive can keep up.

    WD calls this unused AV feature "Silkstream" (which they state is backwards compatible with the standard), which is really mostly WD wanting to put their own branding on a standard, like how it is with HDMI-CEC. Seagate has their own name for it, and any other drive maker that makes AV drives likely will brand it as something as their own. It's yet another bastardization of a standard, creating consumer confusion.

    I'll repeat the important part: TiVo does not use the AV streaming feature (ATA Streaming Command Set extensions), which makes the "supported streams" advertised a useless number to draw any conclusions from, for TiVo use.

    I'm just making sure people are clear on this. This is not something I just made up. If TiVo used the AV Streaming Feature, non-AV drives would fail to work at all, in a TiVo. The AV Streaming Feature uses an option in the drive firmware to use different methods of reading, writing, and error-correction (a general lack of error correction on AV reads/writes).

    EDIT/ADD: It might seem reasonable to make an assumption that a drive that advertises 32 AV streams, as opposed to 12 AV streams, would have a greater capacity when writing AV streams, while not using the actual AV Streaming Feature, writing AV in standard data (non-AV) mode, as a TiVo does. I wouldn't make that assumption. But, to each their own, and YMMV, etc.

    The specs and marketing materials for the WD Purple are still evolving. It wasn't that long ago that the AV-GP marketing data didn't include TV DVR use. It was marketed as a surveillance drive for most of its lifetime. Until the AV-GP is officially EOL designated, I expect WD to continue revising the marketing data. I'm certain the Purple will follow the same pattern of continued additions of what it is marketed for.

    The WD Red NAS, prior to NASware 2.0, was a major disappointment, with major incompatibility issues. The NASware 2.0 version, is so different, that the older drives can't be firmware updated to 2.0. However, unless the drives are used in a NAS environment, which somehow tells the drive "you are being used in NAS", the NASware part of the firmware will be inactive, turning off all the NAS optimizations. This is similar to how the the AV-GP operates in standard data mode, unless everything involved supports the AV Streaming Feature, and it is enabled by the host. The Red NAS being an AV drive as well, makes no use of the AV optimizations or the NAS optimizations, in a TiVo.

    So, the reality of the Purple, when it comes to use in a TiVo, is that it may not offer any improvements or enhancements (may all be dormant), offering nothing more than being a 24/7/365 drive, limited to the standard performance restraints of a low-power profile 5400RPM drive.

    Until WD states how many TB/year the drive is rated for (TB written per year), which is what determines the approximate lifespan of the drive, the Purple could be a step back from other drives. WD doesn't like to publish these numbers. They usually only state them when in negotiations with a large potential corporate client, in order to give WD an edge, if the published specs aren't enough to get a commitment.

    I find the rather low initial price of something that is an entirely new product line (or that's what we are supposed to believe), suspiciously low. That has me wondering is if this is a premium drive or a budget drive. At the market-entry pricing, it seems a bit too reasonably priced for me to possibly consider it being a better drive than a Red NAS.

    Still, in the end, all of WDs specs and marketing are just far too specific to having the optional-use feature sets in-use. They don't publish the specs for "running like any old 5400RPM, 24/7-use, low power profile, drive" specs. Those are the specs that would matter for TiVo use. For TiVo, the ONLY feature, beyond power profile and 24/7, that I see being very beneficial, and has always been part of AV-GP drive marketing, is PWL (Preemptive Wear Leveling), which sweeps the heads across the entire surface of the platters (beyond the actual data tracks, both inner and outer). 24/7/365 drives need this to keep the head mechanism from wearing the swivel point (bearing) unevenly.

    Sorry about the length and repetition of so many things. I need to just move along and get back to my tasks with the WD Red NAS drives that I'm working on (which I hope will clear up a few uncertainties with them). I'll try to come back and pare this post down later.
     
  17. Jul 7, 2014 #37 of 376
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    That's just it. With six tuners there can be twelve streams. Six write streams and six read streams. And then if you have more devices playing back previously recorded content, each of those would add another stream.
     
  18. Jul 7, 2014 #38 of 376
    eboydog

    eboydog Just TiVo'ing.....

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    I glad nooneyouknow pointed out that the protocol that the multi stream AV drives isn't utilized by TiVo.

    Also, the given 12-13mbs requirement is a network specification, not a internal hard drive requirement. A standard desktop sata II interface speed of 3gb is more than fast enough to handle 4 or more tuners, simply stated for those who have used non-AV rated drives in their Roamios would have TiVos that couldn't handle more than 2 tuners.

    On top of that, this discussion keeps referring to the issue of supporting multiple Stream boxes due to the impact requirment of multi streams being supported by the hard drive but you forget that regardless if you have one or more Stream, your TiVo is always recording and always buffering each tuner and with the Roamio plus and Pro, up to 6 "streams".

    As much as a perfectionist would state the AV rated drives are used in the TiVo, majority of the technical features of these drives are not utilized even in the newest TiVo available. This makes a colorful technical laced conversation but the fact remains the use of AV is more a OEM vendor preference and has little if any technical requirement for such. If the Roamio had PATA drive support, even those older drives would still work fine. TiVo uses AV drives due to their economical postion and availability, not for their multistream ability.
     
  19. Jul 7, 2014 #39 of 376
    Heretic

    Heretic New Member

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    Power usage and longevity under 24x7 usage would be the key metrics they would look at, which the AV drives are tailored for. The firmware is likely tweaked for the particular workload regardless of optional command set usage. 4-5W is really low for a 3.5" drive.

    Heat and power definitely a bigger deal than performance in this scenario. 6 tuners streaming @ ~3MB/sec isn't a big deal for modern spindles.
     
  20. Jul 7, 2014 #40 of 376
    nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    On the part highlighted in blue: No matter what speed the drive interface is capable of, the base Roamios still set it to SATA-I mode, and then selects ATA-133 speed. I've been able to repeatedly verify this in the TiVo logs. I was told by ggieseke that the max any Roamio will communicate with the drive is SATA-I, which tops out at 150MB/s. Others have verified this as well. I've also noted that the average consecutive read/write speeds with any "green" 5400RPM drive are ~150MB/s on inner tracks, and ~133MB/s in the middle tracks. So, anybody buying AV drives for higher interface specs, and/or higher number of AV streams specified using AV Streaming Features, is wasting money, if they pay more for that. I'm quite sure the Purple drives will have no edge over the AV-GP or Red NAS drives, when doing an apples-to-apples comparison, using standard data benchmarks. A 5400RPM platter drive can only do so much, unless those extra AV features that TiVo doesn't use are in the picture.

    The part highlighted in red isn't correct, or you just made an error in what you were trying to express. People are using non-AV drives in their 4 & 6 tuner TiVos, and they work. However, I used to have problems with my TiVo HD and Premiere 2TB non-AV drives getting corrupted when near full capacity with 2 tuners.

    I'll make an educated guess that those using non-AV drives on 4 & 6 tuner models will get less corruption-free time & less drive life, than those using AV drives, even though the AV streaming feature isn't used. As I said, this is an educated guess, not a declaration of fact.

    I tried an experiment on one by setting a HPA on the drive to limit how far out recordings could go towards the slower outer tracks. That non-AV drive lasted for just over 3 years of 24/7/365 operation, without corrupting. When I pulled the power to relocate it, the heads welded themselves to the platters. If it had been an AV drive, it would have had PWL, which could have theoretically kept that from happening by sweeping the heads across the full platter area (going in further than the innermost track, and beyond the outermost track), keeping the head mechanism bearing wearing evenly, and keeping the lubricant spread evenly.

    The LBA limiting experiment seemed to prove the slower outer tracks were causing problems, even with 2 tuners. But, I only did that experiment on one Premiere, so replication was not possible. So, this can only be a guess or assumption, without replicating the results under the same parameters.
     

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