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4K HD and Tivo

Discussion in 'TiVo Roamio DVRs' started by ljknight, Nov 26, 2013.

  1. Nov 30, 2013 #41 of 161
    lessd

    lessd Active Member

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    I did not know this (about ATSC planning 4K as a new standard for all TVs, a change in 10 years, hard to see that happing but what do I know as the old standard lasted over 60 years).
    I can't believe I will have to change all my home TVs again in the next 10 years, I just dumped the last of my tube type TVs about 6 months ago.
     
  2. Nov 30, 2013 #42 of 161
    Thom

    Thom Active Member

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    The reason we all had to switch to digital TV sets was because Congress mandated the switch to digital TV.

    I very much doubt Congress will mandate a switch to 4K TV standards, so show carriers (over-the-air, cable, and satellite) will be very slow to adopt 4K resolution transmissions until 4K-capable TV sets have clearly taken over the market.

    If we get to the point where 4K consumer equipment has taken over, I expect prices will be reasonable at that point.
     
  3. Nov 30, 2013 #43 of 161
    Tanquen

    Tanquen Member

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    Some things could change but I just don’t see it happening anytime soon. Bandwidth is still too precious. Cable and satellite got the standard lowered so they could cram in more channels. If you what the 4k like experience right now watch a good quality Blu-ray. Everything else is really pretty bad. Find that same movie recorded on your TiVo and it will look bad… If you are just a few feet from the TV. If you are at the 8-9 Ft recommended for a 60”-ish 1080p TV, you won’t notice as much but get up next to the TV and it’s bad. I’m moving shows from my HD TiVo’s as I’ve got a Roamio now and the bit rate ranges from 8 Mbps (yes 8!)to 18 Mbps with most show at 12 to 14 Mbps. At 12 to 14 Mbps that’s like 5GB an hour. The Blu-ray movies I moved to the NAS are like 10-15GB an hour or more and are in many cases much better transfers. It’s not as bad as with music but MP3s have kind of killed the idea of good quality or what is acceptable. Over compressed cable and satellite along with streaming through Netfix or Amazon and others along with pirating have really lowered the bar and I don’t know if the 4k TV and hardware manufactures can drum up enough buyers to really push the tech. I just get the feeling that 4k TV at 8 or 9 Ft would look the same as 1080p that’s not over compressed. Even if you get true 4k video from Disc you’ll need a 120” display or have to set 3Ft from your 70” 4k TV to see the extra detail.
     
  4. Dec 1, 2013 #44 of 161
    wwu123

    wwu123 Member

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    Was in Japan a few weeks ago and they're already talking about commercial broadcast of 8K by 2020. I think 4K and 8K will happen just because the costs of manufacturing will keep dropping to make them affordable, and the content will follow when it can.

    Look, 10 years ago my brother -in-law bought a high-end Sony Trinitron 32" tube HDTV. Was fairly expensive, doesn't even have HDMI! Couldn't even imagine that we'd have 70" LED's for $1500 a decade later. Or higher resolution than that Sony on a 4" phone. What seems improbable now will be mundane 10 years from now....
     
  5. Dec 1, 2013 #45 of 161
    crxssi

    crxssi Veteran TiVo User

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    We don't. We have 70" LCD.
     
  6. Dec 1, 2013 #46 of 161
    steve614

    steve614 what ru lookin at?

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    But they do have LED backlighting... :p
     
  7. Dec 1, 2013 #47 of 161
    atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    Why confuse life with facts & details :p
     
  8. Dec 1, 2013 #48 of 161
    tomhorsley

    tomhorsley Active Member

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    The Sharp 4K computer monitor just came out a few months ago and has already dropped in price from about $5K to about $3K. That's without the Viewsonic monitor even being released yet to compete with it. Heck in a couple of years, the price might drop all the way down to reasonable :).
     
  9. Dec 1, 2013 #49 of 161
    anthonymoody

    anthonymoody New Member

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    There were also BF deals on the various 55" 4K sets for $3k, down from the recent regular pricing of $3500. The 65" sets were in the low $4s down from $5k. This trend will only continue, and viciously.

    Hell, the 84" LG 4K set can already be had for around $9k, down from the high teens.

    Also, never bet against compression algorithms. They get better all the time.

    You may not like what this means for your wallet, but it's coming.
     
  10. Dec 2, 2013 #50 of 161
    slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    Except for the vast majority of video out there that people actually watch (i.e. broadcast HDTV) for the forseeable future, sure.
     
  11. Dec 2, 2013 #51 of 161
    anthonymoody

    anthonymoody New Member

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    Lulz. That could've been said about everything from silent pictures to b&w television to SD. You do know that all studios now master in at least 4K (with many at 8K) and have done so for years now, right?

    Tell you what. Bookmark this and let's revisit in a couple years to see how much 4K is out there.
     
  12. Dec 2, 2013 #52 of 161
    slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    Yep, let's. Notice I did say *broadcast TV*, which isn't going to be delivered to the consumer as 4k in, like forever.
     
  13. Dec 2, 2013 #53 of 161
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    I agree. 4K in broadcast TV is going to be difficult because of bandwidth. Even with H.265 a 4K stream will need about 50Mbps. ATSC has a max of 19.2Mbps and QAM-64 only has about 26.9Mbps. So it's not even currently possible to broadcast a 4K signal.
     
  14. Dec 2, 2013 #54 of 161
    tomhorsley

    tomhorsley Active Member

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    Sure it is - you just need to use two channels for one broadcast (an opportunity to get rid of half the channels no one watches anyway :).
     
  15. Dec 2, 2013 #55 of 161
    crxssi

    crxssi Veteran TiVo User

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    I don't know about other markets, but here there are TONS of unused channels/bandwidth for OTA (and it is a pretty major market- almost 2 million people). We just have NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, WGNT, FOX, and ION (some of which have sub-channels, but those don't really count in the bandwidth since they are all SD). I haven't dived into the frequencies and such, but I would guess not even 1/3 is taken.
     
  16. Dec 2, 2013 #56 of 161
    atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    When Dan stated "ATSC has a max of 19.2Mbps" he is talking about each frequency, currently the broadcaster can use it all for one channel or break parts of it it out for sub-channels, I do not believe there currently is away to combine the bandwidth from 2 or more frequencies to be used for one channel, so the 19.2 Mbps is a fixed max.

    ATSC 3.0, if it ever happens, it is supposed to support video with a resolution of 3840×2160 at 60 fps within the 19.2 Mbps limitation. If broadcasters decided to support that I am sure they would be broadcasting on 2 frequencies one that supports the current standards that older devices could receive and another that supports the ATSC 3.0 standards for the new devices, the same as when they broadcasted an analog signal on one frequency and a digital on another for several years.

    It is my understanding that the current ATSC standard was updated in 7/2008 to including support for h.264 1080p broadcasts at up to 60 fps and as far as I know it does not appear to be being used by anyone. So why would I believe that even if ATSC 3.0 shows up in 5+/- years, that the broadcasters will use it?
     
  17. Dec 2, 2013 #57 of 161
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    For OTA each station is only allocated enough frequency for 19.2Mbps using ATSC. There is no way to use multiple channels. They'd need a new modulation standard that allows them to get more bandwidth from the frequencies they have.

    For cable they could use bonding, like DOCSIS, but that's not currently part of the spec. They'd more likely upgrade to QAM-128 or QAM-256 to get more bandwidth per QAM. However those are much less tolerant to noise and interference, so they may not work all that great on aging infrastructure.

    In the short term the only 4K we're going to see is from BD discs.
     
  18. Dec 3, 2013 #58 of 161
    slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    Agreed and we don't have the net cap now to sustain 4k streaming with current protocols, and I seriously doubt that will change substantially in the next couple of years. Not to mention providers reintroducing data caps (Comcast just put a 300GB/mo. cap on us in the ATL).

    Discs are going to be it for the near future.
     
  19. Dec 3, 2013 #59 of 161
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    Aren't you thinking about H.264? Some of the stuff I read about 4K said that broadcast 4K with H.264 would need around 50Mb/s of bandwidth, while when using H.265 it would need 20Mb/s to 30Mb/s of bandwidth. Of course that is still higher than the current allotted amount.

    Besides if 1080P content can be delivered at 4.3 Mb/s with H.264(like Netflix), I can see 4K video with H.265 easily being at 20Mb/s. Of course I'm not saying the quality will be the best, but it can certainly be done. And broadcasters have rarely been concerned with quality.
     
  20. Dec 3, 2013 #60 of 161
    atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    I think we will also see streaming, but as with 1080p streaming it will be at a substantially lower bit rate than BD discs.
     

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