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4K drive problems

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by cuda74360, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. cuda74360

    cuda74360 New Member

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    Jul 12, 2013
    Not trying to jump on you or your post, sorry if it came across that way. I appreciate any help and advice you can provide.

    I don't think that an update is causing my issue. After the original drive passed WD diagnostics, I reformatted it and restored my MFS Live backup to it. So both the WD10EURX (AF) and the original WD10EVVS (non-AF) have the same software. There is a huge difference between the two, with the non-AF drive providing much better performance.
     
  2. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    I didn't take it that way, and it didn't come across that way. Like I said, I was on my umpteenth post, dealing with others which did, and it seeped into my post. Sorry.

    I'll try to see if I can figure out why this is happening for you/to you.

    All the details, even the most minor ones, could help me get there faster. PM me, if you feel that it would be cluttering up the thread. I really don't think anybody will mind, though. It's what the thread is here for, right?
     
  3. unitron

    unitron Active Member

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    Apr 28, 2006
    semi-coastal NC
    Rich is sorely missed.

    Let me just chime in here that some 4K drives, mostly the older ones, are 4K physical, but present a 512 "face" to the world.

    Some later ones are straight up 4K.

    The version of PartedMagic on the latest (5.24) version of the Ultimate Boot CD has a utility called disk health or something like that that'll show if it's doing the fake 512 thing or not.

    It might be that the 4K physical/512 logical drives will work better in S3s.
     
  4. Worf

    Worf Active Member

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    Sep 15, 2000
    Actually, older 4K drives presented themselves as 4K drives, which caused a bunch of issues.

    Modern drives are "Advance Format" drives which are 4K internally but present a standard 512 byte interface. Some drives require alignment, while others (Seagate notably) handle misalignment automatically.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_format
     
  5. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    I was hoping somebody (else) would correct that.

    I think the old AF drives put the carriage in front of the horse, by using 4K physical & 4K logical. Then came 4K/512e (4K physical & 512byte logical). 4K for both needs the horse to be better prepared to deal with the carriage.
     
  6. cuda74360

    cuda74360 New Member

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    Jul 12, 2013
    The WD10EURX reports having a physical sector size of 4096, with a logical size of 512
     
  7. A J Ricaud

    A J Ricaud New Member

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    Jun 25, 2002
    Hacienda...
    +1. I have seen him lurking about on the iPad forum, though. He's just as helpful there as he was on this forum. Good guy.
     
  8. jmbach

    jmbach der Neuerer

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    Jan 1, 2009
    You have to copy block0 and the APM as well as the everything in the other partitions otherwise the tivo will not boot. I am surprised that dd actually copied the partitions individually. As a general rule, the TiVo drive is not a standard anything drive. It is not a standard apple drive, Linux drive, Windows drive. Consequently, unless something is specifically written to access a tivo drive, no standard OS tool will work. In JMFS, the dd command works because it is doing a raw copy that is agnostic to what is on the drive.

    Did you mod the actual TiVo drive? What were the sizes of the img files you created for each partition.
     
  9. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    Actually, JMFS uses GNU dd_rescue. DD could be on the CD, but it's not what the JMFS front-end uses for it's raw copy operation. I've used dd_rescue from the command line of the JMFS CD to use my own command line options for faster copies, or in the cases where JMFS can't use it's menu system due to it not detecting what it can identify as a TiVo drive (like drives that have been modified by other tools).

    It can also copy a TiVo partition. One night while operating while sleepy, I accidentally said SDA1 SDA2, instead of SDA SDB, and copied partition 1 of drive A over the top of partition 2 of drive A. Thankfully, I had made sure to have a backup copy of the drive A I was working with (A was supposed to be source, B was supposed to be target).

    Surprisingly, the drive I accidentally copied partition 1 over partition 2 on, only behaved differently, in the sense that it was left unable to do a KS52, or install a software update to partition 2. It basically nuked the alternate partition swapping function. This may be a way to disable future software updates, for those who may want to do that. Or, maybe it will somehow just use the one partition set, and not disable future updates. There are reasons for wanting to do this. However, this was on a TiVo HD drive, which made it hard to see if it could "block" an update. With 11.0m rolling out, perhaps now is my chance to see what happens...

    EDIT/ADD: What I found interesting is that while partition 1 is small, and partition 2 is larger, partition 2 retained it's size. I think the accidental over-write just sector-by-sector overwrote the beginning of partition 2, and left the rest of that partition alone. I also tried every kickstart repair function, to try and fix what I had done. Not only did the drive not turn into a brick, but all just remained the same (with the #1 partition overwritten to the beginning of partition #2, and no alternate partition swapping taking place).
     
  10. Worf

    Worf Active Member

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    Sep 15, 2000
    Well, the problem was the dominant OS was Windows XP, which lacked all support for 4K, and even worse, always misaligned the partition. If you ran Linux, no problem.

    Windows 7 doesn't quite support 4K native, but Windows 8 does. Windows 7 however stuck to a much saner partitioning scheme which didn't misalign partitions (and actually aligns it for SSDs).

    Of course, 4K drives are nothing compared to SSDs which require even more special alignment to a block (128-256k).
     
  11. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow TiVo User Since 2007

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    Feb 5, 2011
    Cox Cable...
    Well, as soon as MS ends all access to support and Windows/Microsoft update, that stubborn XP might finally take the slide in numbers it has defied. Does XP still have access to updates? I've got a few dormant XP units around that I should update, if it's still an option.

    The delicate issue with the blanket statement of "Linux=no problem", is that TiVo is a "Tivoized" Linux OS (take a look on Wikipedia, and you'll find that term and an article all about it). I understand that this whole APM - Apple Partition M(whatever it actually stands for), is yet some other TiVoized part of the mix, which I think is where the problem lies...

    I don't want to go Off-Topic... But you brought up SSDs, which are giant flash drives. How does one take a USB (flash memory) stick, and determine what sector size to format it with, other than trial-and-error, by measuring what sector size gives the best read/write times? Is there a tool that can "suss" that information out? Sometimes you just can't go to a website and get that info, especially when many of the drives give no indication of who even made any one part of the whole. I know Windows 8 can somehow figure it out. I just started with Win7, and Win8 isn't for me at all...
     
  12. ggieseke

    ggieseke Active Member

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    Updates to XP will continue until April 8, 2014. After that it will still run fine but without ongoing security patches I'd probably limit my use of it to running older software and keep it away from the internet.

    It's had a hell of a run.
     
  13. cuda74360

    cuda74360 New Member

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    Jul 12, 2013
    Since I restored a truncated image to the drive first, there was no need to copy block 0. I didn't copy the APM, as that would overwrite the corrected partition table I created with the original one.

    The image files were the same size as the partitions.
     
  14. jmbach

    jmbach der Neuerer

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    Could you post the MFSinfo information on your modified drive.
    Just so I understand your process, you first restored the truncated image, backed up each partition, modified the partition structure with pdisk, then restored each partition.
    I like that. :thumbup: Did not even think out using dd on a tivo drive that way. It's a good day when you learn something new. :) Much easier to do it that way than with iBored as it is more automated.
     
  15. cuda74360

    cuda74360 New Member

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    Jul 12, 2013
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Super Header
    state=0 magic=ebbafeed
    devlist=/dev/hda10 /dev/hda11 /dev/hda12 /dev/hda13
    zonemap_ptr=1121 total_secs=1951672320
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    MFS volume set for /dev/sda
    The MFS volume set contains 4 partitions
    Partition sectors size
    /dev/sda10 589824 288 MiB
    /dev/sda11 876054528 427761 MiB
    /dev/sda12 589824 288 MiB
    /dev/sda13 1074438144 524628 MiB
    Total MFS sectors: 1951672320d
    Total MFS volume size: 952965 MiB
    Estimated hours in a standalone TiVo: 1181
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Zone Maps
    Zone 0: type=0
    map_start=1121 map_size=1 backup_map_start=589822
    next_map_start=263266 next_map_size=34 next_backup_map_start=589788
    zone_first=1122 zone_last=263265 zone_size=262144 min(chunk)=262144
    free=262144 checksum=1675366169 logstamp=12362757 num_bitmap=1
    Zone 1: type=2
    map_start=263266 map_size=34 backup_map_start=589788
    next_map_start=263300 next_map_size=34 next_backup_map_start=589754
    zone_first=589824 zone_last=876642303 zone_size=876052480 min(chunk)=20480
    free=3911680 checksum=3444533777 logstamp=12363028 num_bitmap=17
    Zone 2: type=1
    map_start=263300 map_size=34 backup_map_start=589754
    next_map_start=876644352 next_map_size=1 next_backup_map_start=877234175
    zone_first=263334 zone_last=589749 zone_size=326416 min(chunk)=8
    free=49840 checksum=4206158201 logstamp=12363028 num_bitmap=17
    Zone 3: type=0
    map_start=876644352 map_size=1 backup_map_start=877234175
    next_map_start=876906497 next_map_size=34 next_backup_map_start=877234141
    zone_first=876644353 zone_last=876906496 zone_size=262144 min(chunk)=262144
    free=262144 checksum=580165030 logstamp=12362757 num_bitmap=1
    Zone 4: type=2
    map_start=876906497 map_size=34 backup_map_start=877234141
    next_map_start=876906531 next_map_size=34 next_backup_map_start=877234107
    zone_first=877234176 zone_last=1951655935 zone_size=1074421760 min(chunk)=20480
    free=6676480 checksum=18646780 logstamp=12363028 num_bitmap=17
    Zone 5: type=1
    map_start=876906531 map_size=34 backup_map_start=877234107
    next_map_start=0 next_map_size=0 next_backup_map_start=-6148914691236517206
    zone_first=876906565 zone_last=877234100 zone_size=327536 min(chunk)=8
    free=260720 checksum=4206404614 logstamp=12362757 num_bitmap=17
    Total Inodes = 262144
    This MFS volume may be expanded 4 more times
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  16. cuda74360

    cuda74360 New Member

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    Jul 12, 2013
    Yes, that is what I did.
     
  17. jmbach

    jmbach der Neuerer

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    Could you post the WinMFS version of MFSInfo output as well
     
  18. cuda74360

    cuda74360 New Member

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    Jul 12, 2013
    no can do... don't have a windows box
     
  19. jmbach

    jmbach der Neuerer

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    No problem. How about the pdisk output.
     
  20. cuda74360

    cuda74360 New Member

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    Jul 12, 2013
    Partition map (with 512 byte blocks) on '/dev/sdb'
    #: type name length base ( size )
    1: Apple_partition_map Apple 63 @ 1
    2: Image Bootstrap 1 8 @ 876054592
    3: Image Kernel 1 8192 @ 876054600 ( 4.0M)
    4: Ext2 Root 1 524288 @ 876062792 (256.0M)
    5: Image Bootstrap 2 8 @ 876587080
    6: Image Kernel 2 8192 @ 876587088 ( 4.0M)
    7: Ext2 Root 2 524288 @ 876595280 (256.0M)
    8: Swap Linux swap 262144 @ 877119568 (128.0M)
    9: Ext2 /var 524288 @ 877381712 (256.0M)
    10: MFS MFS application region 589824 @ 877906000 (288.0M)
    11: MFS MFS media region 876054528 @ 64 (417.7G)
    12: MFS Second MFS application region 589824 @ 878495824 (288.0M)
    13: MFS Second MFS media region 1074438144 @ 879085648 (512.3G)
    14: Apple_Free Extra 1376 @ 1953523792

    Device block size=512, Number of Blocks=1953525168 (931.5G)
    DeviceType=0x0, DeviceId=0x0
     

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