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4-tuner OTA compatible tivo's

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by jollygrunt777, Sep 6, 2012.

  1. tootal2

    tootal2 New Member

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    my computer uses about 500 watts when playing call of duty mw3 at 1080p 90 fps
    It makes my ps3 look obsolete. But its recording 4 shows while playing cod mw3.
     
  2. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    To each their own I guess. But I still think you guys are in the minority. I still think that for most people buying one TiVo with 4 (or 6) tuners and a couple of Minis to use around the house would be a lot cheaper (both upfront and power usage wise) and easier to setup. I know you guys want flexibility, but most people just want something to work. They don't want infinite options to configure everything. They just want simplicity and will (usually) scrafice flexibility to get it.

    Dan
     
  3. magnus

    magnus Tivo User

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    Tuners in any for or fashion is fine. I don't care if I have to have multiple Tivos to get what I need. However, I would like for TiVo to implement cooperative scheduling and an integrated NPL. Then it would not matter which box records it. I should not have to care which one records it or which one it is that has the recording. It should just work like one virtual TiVo.
     
  4. mr.unnatural

    mr.unnatural Active Member

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    Ellicott...
    No argument here as that's pretty much what I've been saying all along. Most people want a plug and play box they don't have to mess with. That's what separates the average consumer from the hobbyists. If off-the-shelf items don't give us what we want, we have to find a way to get it. HTPCs just happen to offer the flexibility we're looking for, but they're not for everyone.

    All of the arguments about cost and energy consumption are moot when it comes to niche items like HTPCs. I doubt that the owner of a Ferrari is going to worry about the cost of the car or the gas mileage it gets. It's all about the performance. OTOH, the owner of a Honda Civic is probably more conscious about gas mileage, just wants reliable transportation, and isn't as concerned about performance (unless the owner happens to be a teenager:D).

    A lot of HTPC owners will trick out their HTPCs with high end hardware and create media center PCs that are also superb gaming machines. These can get to be extremely expensive and are even more of a niche product for hardcore gamers. Most HTPC enthusiasts build their first one out of curiosity and then escalate it to a higher purpose once the bug bites them. Some people try it and never quite take to it. It's all a matter of personal preference. The thing is, until you try it you really don't know what you're missing.
     
  5. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    That's what a 4 tuner box is good for. Everything is scheduled and recorded by a single box, so you don't have to worry about which TiVo records what or manually manage conflicts.

    Plus you only have to buy one box and one subscription so it's a lot cheaper to get up and running.

    Dan
     
  6. magnus

    magnus Tivo User

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    Tell that to those that have already purchased more than one box. I don't why know every one seems to think that the 4 tuner box should be the answer to what TiVo really needs to do with cooperative scheduling and an integrated NPL. A 4 tuner TiVo really does not solve this.
     
  7. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    I don't think it's the "answer", but I think it's the plan. I've been asking TiVo for cooperative scheduling for nearly a decade, back when TiVos only had one tuner and cooperative scheduling would have improved the product immensely, but they never listened. Now that they have boxes that are capable of recording 4 channels at once, and 6 tuner units on the horizon, their motivation for developing cooperative scheduling has diminished even further. Which is why I think it's unlikely to ever happen.

    If you're a cable user and currently use both of your TiVos in one room then it's a no brainier to upgrade to an XL4. In addition to having a single To Do and My Shows list, which is awesome, it also only requires one CableCARD, one tuning adapter and one "outlet". Depending on how much your provider charges for those things it could be a large monthly savings. Plus if your two current units have lifetime you can likely sell them and cover most, if not all, of the upgrade cost.

    If you need to access them in multiple rooms then I'd hold off until the Mini is released and then judge if it's worth it based on it's cost. (no one knows yet how much those things are going to cost)

    Dan
     
  8. tootal2

    tootal2 New Member

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    looks like macrosoft is removing internet tv from wmc on 9-20:( Wont be able to watch podcasts in wmc if this happens.
     
  9. mr.unnatural

    mr.unnatural Active Member

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    Ellicott...
    I never watched much internet TV so it's no loss to me. I'm sure there are other ways to watch it on a PC without resorting to WMC. Still, I'm sure it's a convenient feature for those that do watch it.

    Cooperative scheduling has never been an issue for me either. It's another reason why I opted for an HTPC over multiple Tivo boxes. I used to have to create a schedule grid and assign specific shows to each Tivo so there wouldn't be any conflicts. If something special got aired in addition to my regular shows it was usually a nightmare trying to work around it and still get all of my shows. With multiple cablecard plus ATSC tuners in a single box and a method to share the recordings with any TV I never had any issue with conflicts. It's also why I've got so darn many tuners. At a cost of about $35-50 for each cablecard tuner and about $25-50 for each ATSC/QAM tuner, it's just cheap insurance against any chance of a scheduling conflict. Some people see HTPCs as a headache (i.e., glass half empty syndrome). I see it as a solution that gives me peace of mind.
     
  10. astrohip

    astrohip Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    Having had an Elite for about half a year, I will only use 4 tuner boxes in the future. Even though I had (still have, actually) two 2-tuner S3s, the ease of a single box is great. I love it. I'm considering getting another Elite for my wife, to replace the S3 she uses. Mainly so we can stream. Although the Mini may change my mind.

    I'm keeping the S3s running though. In the case of a natural disaster, I want to be able to get OTA. I have an excellent roof-mounted antenna system feeding all my wall/coax outlets, and I need the OTA capability of the S3s.
     
  11. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    Sounds like cooperative scheduling would have helped a lot in your case. The point of cooperative scheduling is to allow multiple TiVos communicate with one another and allow them to automatically reschedule shows they can't get due to conflict on one of the other TiVos on your network. So basically you'd turn multiple TiVos into a big tuner bank. It would be nice to have, even now, but I just don't think TiVo is heading in that direction.

    Dan
     
  12. lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...
    Implying, not inferring. Infer is to imply as receive is to send. One person makes implications from which another draws inferrences.
     
  13. lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...
    Surely by "you guys" you don't mean me? I have absolutely no intention of buying an HTPC or of switching to OTA.

    That depends on how one approaches it. I am also not obsessively concerned about cost if a more expensive system better meets my needs. I do want the best value, for the money, of course, and don't care at all to pay for things (like 4 tuners) which do little or nothing for me.

    Yes, but not only that. I want reliability. With your proposed setup, the failure of a $0.10 capacitor can cause the entire setup, costing perhaps well over $1000, to fail completely. 'Same for an HTPC with satellites. I much prefer that when - not if but when - one of the components of the system fail the other components continue to work without interruption.

    Well, there is one born every minute, you know. Certainly many people espouse this utterly foolish notion, but I counter with this:

    A system does not work unless it performs the way I want it to in every detail. A system is not "easy" to set up if after doing so it fails to meet my needs, no matter how trivial the setup effort may have been.
     
  14. lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...
    I find that extremely unlikely. 500 watts is a huge amount of power; enough to cause a 2 cm sphere to reach high enough temperatures to melt lead. A motherboard with CPU may at most draw 180 watts - probably much, much less, and it would require at least 25 hard drives to make up the rest. The servers and arrays in my computer room don't draw that much power, and there are two servers hosting a total of 26 hard drives.
     
  15. lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...
    The problem is the MPAA pees in its pants at the thought anyone, anywhere, might have a copy of a movie on hand they have not paid for at least three times.

    Cooperative scheduling is only mostly practical if copy protection does not interfere. For me, TiVoWebPlus does a more than adequate job of allowing schedule manipulation on those rare occasions when a pair of tuners cannot be employed to resolve a three-way conflict. With 24 hours in a day and 8 tuners at the ready, it just is not an issue very often.
     
  16. tootal2

    tootal2 New Member

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    Its not the cpu the uses the power in gaming its the gpu. some gaming computers can have 3 video cards useing 800 watts or more.

     
  17. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    Nothing unusual about 500 watts with a gaming rig. If you have one of the expensive gaming video cards it will certainly draw alot of power. I used to have a couple of power supplies in two rigs(not for gaming) that would each always draw around 500 watts no matter what the load(it was designed that way). I don't remember the reason for it but it was rated well. But this was a few years ago when I wasn't concerned with my power usage.

    My current PC and TiVo Desktop PC each draws around 140 watts with just web browsing and several SSDs. But even that is too much. I used to leave half a dozen PCs/servers running 24/7. But not any more since electricity rates have gone up so much in the last few years in this area.
     
  18. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    With the Premiere's ability to stream even copy protected content it no longer matters which TiVo holds a show. You just select a program on any TiVo on your network and hit play and it will play no matter what copy protection it has. The flag prevents there from being more then one "copy", but it doesn't prevent you from playing that copy back anywhere inside your home.

    TiVo might even be able to skirt it even more and allow people to move recordings from one TiVo to another or even a TiVo to PC or iPad. As long as the original copy is destroyed as it's being transferred then you only have one copy and you're still within the rules. Although I don't think they'll ever do this as there are too many variables and too many things that could go wrong that could result in customer dissatisfaction. Plus their encryption on the PC is a joke so cable labs and the MPAA might not take to kindly to that.

    Dan
     
  19. lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...
    Yes, it does. First of all, streaming is only available from one Premier to another. Anyone who already owns an S3 must either downgrade to a Premier at significant expense or else streaming is not an option to that unit. Secondly, when the TiVo in question fails, the show is lost, period.

    Incorrect. Any Premier on the network, not any TiVo. Plenty of people still have Series III even Series II or Series I TiVos on their network.

    Oh, yes it does. It can't be played on any of my PCs, or a laptop, or a DVD / BluRay player. As already mentioned, it can't be played back on an S1, S2, or S3 TiVo.

    As much as I like the S3 TiVo platform, there is no way I am gong to allow TiVo to lock me into their product, even if the Premier were otherwise acceptable, which it is not.

    The MPAA doesn't take kindly to people owning DVRs, at all, or of allowing MRV. There's nothing they can do about those things at this point, though. The encryption on a TiVo is perfectly strong, and if that encryption were kept on the files when they transferred, it is unlikely it would ever be broken. TiVo evidently isn't taking any chances, though.
     
  20. lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...
    Oh, yes, there is. There is nothing unusual about a 500 Watt or even a 700 watt power supply, but a machine actually pulling that much power continuously is another matter. Gaming machines often hit high peaks, but their continuous dissipation is usually much lower.

    Yes, but even 100 watts is a helluva lot of power for something the size of a video card. Of course, some are double-width, but even then dissipating that much power in a device that size without it glowing cherry red is a challenge. It is also a challenge to deliver more than 8 amps on the 12V traces or more than 20 amps on the 5V traces of a motherboard to be delivered to a plug-in peripheral card. It is not impossible, of course, but it is definitely not trivial. When I was an engineer for a CATV system, I had monumental headaches with CATV amplifiers made by RCA that supposedly were rated for 15A at 50C, but the motherboards regularly burned up carrying anything more than 12A in the Texas heat. I finally quit arguing with the manufacturer and instead went on a campaign to re-design the power realms so that no amplifier carried more than 12 amps.

    Note the maximum permissible draw on a standard 5-15R 110VAC receptacle is just a hair over 1500 watts. A small electric space heater might dissipate 500W on its low setting.

    I'm skeptical. If so, it was a truly lousy design.

    It doesn't matter what it was rated, it was still a foolish design.

    That is fairly high, especially with SSDs. A TTG and GoBack server needn't draw more than 50 watts, if that. A low speed, low power CPU is all that is required, with no video board and no attached mouse or keyboard. A headless thin client attached hosted by a low power array or a low power NAS will work just fine.
     

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